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Anyone see this?

http://thelcn.com/2009/10/black-market-reptile-dealers-convicted/

Is this the same Al Roach who wrote the spotted turtle book?

Any comments?

Allen

I'ld really be shocked if there was any truth to Al Roach selling wild collected spotteds.

These people spent god knows how much money,wasted time, and got what out of it exactly?..I'ld be willing to bet the investigation cost more than they collected fines.

Then it states they released the animals back into the wild.
Do they know everyone of those animals was indeed wild caught/collected?

How about checking them for desease(s) before release into wild populations..I doubt it, and they'ld argue that they don't have the resources to test all those animals to I'm sure.

Al has helped countless people in raising and breeding spotteds which in turn makes CB spotteds available so people don't need to wild collect.

I don't know Al personally, but have his book, and have followed him on forums, including his own forum and he has been a huge help.

It certainly would be a bummer if he indeed did collect/sell wild spotteds.

n/p

Any other info. on any of this?

I sure would like some more information on this. That's really disturbing news...

Here is the link
http://thelcn.com/2009/10/black-market-reptile-dealers-convicted/

Can you even post links on here?
http://thelcn.com/2009/10/black-market-reptile-dealers-convicted/

The Livingston County District Attorney’s Office is being commended by the New York Department of Environmental Conservation for bringing three men to justice for their role in the widespread illegal sale of reptiles.
An undercover operation called “Operation Shellshock” concluded in March 2009, and included numerous arrests throughout the state.
“The Operation Shellshock cases successfully prosecuted by Tom Moran’s office were some of the most significant cases we made,” said Lieutenant Richard Thomas of the DEC Police. “These three prosecutions will set a very strong precedent that New York State should not be an open marked in protected wildlife.”
For two years, Lt. Thomas posed as a wildlife photographer to the hundreds of people he met while attending reptile and amphibian shows in New York, Pennsylvania and Ohio.In total, his activities have resulted in the arrest of 18 people.
Captain Michael VanDurme, also of DEC Region 8 and Investigator Daniel Sullivan of Region 9 went undercover to build evidence to support the existence of black market trading of rare, protected and endangered turtles, venomous and non-venomous snakes, frogs, salamanders and lizards. The investigators also worked closely with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the U.S. Immigration and Customs Service, the New York State Attorney General’s office, Environment Canada and the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources as well officials from Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Florida.
Thomas and Sullivan deeply embedded themselves into the reptile culture through online communication with violators, attending in and out of state shows and arranging meetings in the field with illegal individual collectors and sellers. They enlisted the assistance of DEC Herpetologist Alvin R. Breisch, who taught the investigators the natural history of New York’s native reptiles and the issues threatening their existence today, which is why their protection is fiercely enforced.
Dealers believed Thomas to be a photographer of high end reptile and amphibians, which opened the door to invitations and opportunities to photograph other individuals’ collections. One violator invited Thomas to photograph his personal collection of protected native New York turtles and venomous snakes.
The following three cases were wrapped up recently in Livingston County:
On Nov. 5, 2008, Sean Kirk sold three eastern box turtles for $550 to Lt. Thomas, who replied to an ad on the website kingsnake.com. Kirk also offered to sell Thomas two adult male box turtles for $250 and a female turtle for $150. The transaction was completed when Kirk mailed the turtles to Thomas in Geneseo. In April, Kirk pled guilty to Illegal Commercialization of Wildlife, and was sentenced to one year conditional discharge and a fine of $5,000.
Investigator Sullivan charged the company Seltrut Inc., doing business as turtlesale.com, for selling two juvenile wood turtles, two adult wood turtles, one juvenile spotted turtles and two hatchling blanding turtles — for a total of $1,800. The animals were shipped to the UPS Store in Geneseo, leading to a July conviction for Illegal Commercialization of Wildlife with a one year conditional discharge, a$5,000 fine and $1,800 restitution.
In October 2008, Investigator Sullivan charged reptile dealer Albert Roach with two counts of felony Illegal Commercialization of Fish, Shellfish, Crustaceans and Wildlife. Roach offered to sell a protected species of native spotted turtles for more than $1,500. Roach sold spotted turtles to Sullivan for $2,130 and $1,050 and later agreed to sell him 30 animals for $2,130. On Nov. 4, 2008, Sullivan received the 30 animals at an undercover Geneseo address. In February, Roach agreed to sell Sullivan 14 spotted turtles for $1,050 — and also shipped the animals to Geneseo.
Roach pled guilty to Illegal Commercialization of Wildlife and was sentenced to a year conditional discharge, a $5,000 fine and restitution of $3,180.
“The impact of these prosecutions will be far-ranging in the black market trade, as all three defendants are well known within the reptile and amphibian culture,” said Lt. Thomas. “The native animals involved are considered indicator species and are extremely sensitive to environmental change and thus help us monitor the planet’s health,” he said. “We appreciate D.A. Moran’s willingness and dedication to help us protect biodiversity and thus puibic safety.”
Assistant District Attorneys Victor Rowcliffe and Joshua Tonra handled these cases in Village of Geneseo Court. The DEC kept the turtles alive as evidence, and have since been released back into the wild, or provided homes in zoos and schools.
Sally Santora also contributed to this report.

Tagged as: black market, DEC, reptiles, turtles
Comments (2)
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Marty Mayernick said:
A few million Islamic nutcases wake up every morning wondering how many Americans they can kill today. A few million illegal aliens pouring across our borders all the time. Drug crimes everywhere, armed robberies, home invasions becoming commonplace, and these guys put on a couple year sting operation to catch the notorious turtle seller! What a joke and waste of tax money.
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-October 31st, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Heywood Jablome said:
Yes, this is a far better use of tax money than chasing ghosts in some godforsaken desert at a cost of thousands of innocent lives and lives of soldiers, or trying to stop people from attempting to get a piece of the American dream. Want to do something about drug crimes? See to it that they aren’t profitable. And yes, the environment, OUR environment, is far more important than politics, war or some pathetic self-inflicted social problems.
(Report comment)

-November 15th, 2009 at 7:50 am
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n/p

If the turtles are CB there should be no problem with keeping them.Spotteds are no longer listed in Ma. but you still can't legally have them..Not even CB can legally be kept.

You really think that CB turtles confiscated by wildlife officials and then released into the wild is a good thing?

Captive bred?Don't be so gullible.

Yes I do think its better to releases captive bred animals into the wild than to take wild animals and sell them. I don't know that they are captive bred and I don't know that they are wild caught but it says in the artical POACHING. To my knowledge you can poach a captive bred animal animal. I know of programs in south Jersey that hatches dozens of Diamond Back Terrapins and lets school kids raise them. Once they are a certian size they RELEASE THEM to try and make up for the hundreds of road kills every year.

Lol That should say can't poach Captive bred animals. Thans what I get for talking and posting.

2 of the bigger busts mentioned in the news article involved captive-bred animals. These people we charged with Lacey Act Violations for shipping NY protected species (captive bred) into New York from out of state.

That's what I was getting at.I understand an animal being protected in certain areas(different states) but,why would buying a CB (no, I'm not gullable sp.) spotted turtle from a state where they are not protected or the breeder is Lic. be a problem.

It in no way shape or form has anything to do with that states population.That law is BS,...

And as for releasing the CB babies from a headstart program.That's a total different situation.To take adult CB animals and release them into the wild is as stupid as the law.

I can't find the article but..A guy in Ga. had his turtle confiscated , like 360 something turtles by the Dept. of wildlife.

Turns out the guy had permits and others didn't need permits for him to keep them.

He went to have them returned and they for the most part all died in the care of the wildlife @%^ holes that where *doing what was right for the turtles*...wildlife officials should hire people that actually know what they are doing...To me , for the most part they're the same as hiring a vegitarian butcher.

Here in MI Spotteds are a species of special concern which means no collecting from the wild ... but we can possesses, buy, sell spotteds as long as they are captive bred from legally acquired adult spotteds, MI DNR Prefers they come from out of state but its not a big issue as long as there is a paper trail.

Pet stores in MI are even allowed to sell them.

MI DNR's big issue is that these Spotteds are no NEVER be released into the wild which would allow them to breed with the MI locality Spotteds and alter the bloodlines.

Same thing with all MI speies of Special Concern, even E Massasauga's .. if you can find legal CB specimens with a paper trail of documentation ten there ok to have/buy/sell within the state ... (good luck finding legal documented E. Sauga's tho!)

That's what they where listed as here in Ma. as well up to a cpl yrs ago they where taken off the list.
Still can't legally have them thou.

My sister lives in Mi. and wants a spotted but said they're a definate no no out there.I'll tell her to look into it some more now instead of listening to some so called *reptile expert* she knows out there.

I say if you can show papers for a CB animal, every state should be fine with it.Of course they do have reasons to worry about ppl releaseing them into wild populations..ex. Fla.

I got that info straight from the MI DNR, they transfered me around a bit and I ended up talking to someone who was a permit specialist ... ill dig up the # I forget his name though

Very cool...They must be asking a good $$ for them in the pet stores out there.

honestly I have never seen them in a pet store ... the MI DNR guy told me they sell them in pet stores (sell CB spotteds from out of state).

DNR Mount Clemens field office 586-465-2160 ... The guys name there was Dan or Dave

Also if you review the regs they pacificly refer to "WILD" species of special concern

great..Thanks a lot!..I just forwarded that to my sister out there...

Maybe she'll buy her brother 1.

I couldn't agree with you more. If they are CAPTIVE BRED and not wild caught there would be no shortage of people who would take them. Or even sell them to help with the costs of the sting. They said some were sent to schools and zoos, I was at the Philadelphia zoo yesterday and noticed they had some new 2inch spotteds. I wonder if they are from this group.

Just my two cents here...

I think it's obviously a slippery slope. But a professional breeder/dealer, whatever, should know the laws of each state they are shipping to, stupid or not. It doesn't make sense to me if a state outlaws keeping captive breds, but that's the law and it's pretty stupid for a breeder to knowingly mail an outlawed turtle to said state.

That being said, I have seen the same examples you are talking about, Dan, of zoos, schools, etc. doing a WAY worse job caring for turtles than from where they were probably taken from. Just as an example, one of the zoos in my area has a spotted in its reptile exhibit and it is kept in a 10 gallon tank in an inch of water. Sad.

I would love to be a part of some kind of education for wildlife officals and agencies once reptiles are siezed. There is a better way than flat out releasing them into the wild or giving them to keepers without adequate resources and knowledge.

I don't know if the breeders should know all of the states different rules/laws.Some of the rules are so confusing I've read the same ones 10times over and still was confused on parts of it.
Maybe it should be the buyers responsability to know there state laws..who am I to say.I still say if it's CB and you can prove it with a paper trail, then all should be fine.

I have a zoo here Curtis, there's a big display with the glass so you can see into the water.The water is probaly 4ft. deep with Diamond backs and spotteds in there.

I asked what they feed them and he tells me shrimp.OK..DB's eat shrimp no problem seeing they are found in salt/brackish water.
Spotteds would have a hell of a time catching shrimp in swamps!?!

and 4ft of water?..The people that are supposed to be caring for these animals should be required to specialize in that animal.

A buddy of mine in FL sent some baby gators to a customer in I believe Colarodo ... I guess gators are not allowed there. Not sure if the customer got caught with them or what but the CO DNR contacted my buddy the seller and informed him of the regulations and asked him not to send any more gators into the state ... no big deal and the DNR was very nice about it.

I think for the most part it is the buyers responsiblity to know the laws not the sellers ... but if its something obvous and the dealer knows then yea the dealer shouldnt send it.

Really tho, what could the DNR in CO have done to my buddy in FL for sending the gators ... nothing im id imagine.

They'ld probally be able to hand out a pretty stiff fine if they pursued it..funny, I can get gators for practicaly nothing here, but not supposed to have spotted turtles.

Every summer there's a gator on the news that someone released into a pond or lake.

They could indeed "do something" to your buddy. He would be guilty of violating the Lacey Act by shipping a protected animal across state lines in violation of game laws. That is a felony. He's lucky the authorities let him off with a warning.

i NEVER ship any of my baby spotties into states in which they are native unless the customer provides me with a copy of a valid and current state permit.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein

It wasn't a protected animal...it was a gator his buddy shipped.

I wish someone at wildlife would actually return a phone call or a e-mail about getting a permit.I got 1 e-mail back months ago that just said..*no permits for reptiles*.

Well I would like to talk to someone about it, thinking there has to be some permit(s).The web site sucks for anything basically.Why would there be no permits available for CB animals?. Maybe a dealer/breeder has some insight on this.

The state could put any $$$ price tag on the permit(s) and they'ld get it, so why not?

Before I ship a spotted to a state where they are native, I contact the local agency. Usually, they have no idea whether or not they are protected, and I get nowhere with them. North Carolina was a nightmare. I got three different answers from three different offices.

In NY, I was told that it's up to the buyer to have a permit and such... and that it's not my responsibility to verify.

In other states, they don't even bother answering my questions.

How can wildlife agencies go after people and set up stings... when they do so little to help us understand the laws? I'm trying to supply the trade with captive animals, taking pressure off wild populations, and I get hardly any support from the people who are supposed to be protecting the populations.

I've had a few people ask me to check the laws before they'll ship to me, and I've gotten basically nothing from wildlife for answers.

I've also been told by a few ppl that they wont ship to Ma. because spotteds are protected.They have been off the protected list for 3 yrs..So what's the problem with shipping a CB spotted?

I understand the laws are to protect certain animals and all that and I get it..but,is a private collector buying a CB animal really that big of a deal.

I couldn't imagine being a big breeder and getting 100's of orders and trying to play by the rules (following every states laws)..It would get to the point where you'ld have to ask yourself *is all the BS worth it?*

I have read a massive paper written by the main wildlife enforcement official that spearheaded "Operation Shellshock". The people who were charged in connection with this investigation had a VERY CLEAR UNDERSTANDING that they were violating wildlife laws. It was required in order to bring legitimate cases against them.

I have run into many of the same problems with trying to verify legality of sales to other States. You are both absolutely right, it is a pain! Even researchers have a difficult time with enforcement agents and getting straight answers.

But, let's be clear on this. The people charged in the case referenced in this thread were on record admitting that they were willing to violate these laws.

One tip, most States now employ a Herpetologist in connection with their Wildlife Enforcement agency. I always ask to speak with that individual.

One tip, most States now employ a Herpetologist in connection with their Wildlife Enforcement agency. I always ask to speak with that individual.

That's something I'm going to look into, maybe then I can get some answers on spotteds or at least getting a permit.

You are not going to get in trouble shipping a spotted turtle into a illegal state.It's when you are selling 30 at a time they take notice.

Unless that person is secretly an agent. The stakes are so high that I'm just not willing to take the chance.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

"Some things are flat impossible-until they're done."
Robert A. Heinlein