Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys, i just recently started working for a pet store and i am the most experienced person there with the reptiles. most of my experience is with snakes though. we have 3 collared lizards right now and 2 of them are starting to look pretty skinny. we have had these guys for over a month and have been great until now. we had 4, but one of them just stopped eating and eventually died. i don't want to see these other 2 go as well. i separated them from the one that is eating, thinking that they aren't getting the food. other than that i'm not sure what to do.

we have the healthy one on bark, 80* with a hot basking spot, no hide (do they need one?), they are all fed 6-8 crickets per animal every other day, calcium dusted once or twice a week.

the skinny ones are now on cage carpet with a hide, they just sit on top of it. fed the same. they show interest in the food but just dont go after it.

any suggestions on getting these guys back in shape?

Well, it sounds like a lot can be wrong. First, collareds usually eat that many crix each day, so they were underfed to begin with. The more dominant one was probably getting those few crix for the most part. Second, you need to measure that basking spot and get your temps accurate. Collareds need NO LESS than 100-105 degrees measured with a temp gun or a digital thermometer with probe, or they simply cannot process their food. Finally, do you know if you have males or females? If you have more than one male, then they will stress each other out at best, and will eventually fight. And yes, they need hides and they need a good heat absorbing basking surface, like resin, rock, or slate.

Do you have them under a UVB bulb? If so, what kind is it? If not, you should put a reptisun 10 fluorescent LINEAR tube over them in addition to the basking bulb.

Once collareds reach a certain level of dehydration, they will not eat. If the two are to that point, then they need a vet or a good rehabber ASAP or they will die because they need fluids before they can process anything, much less bugs. Where are you located?

Heat: The amnbient temp should be close to 90 during the day. PLUS the 100 basking spot. I run basking spots even higher than that, because the guy who produced my trio swears by offering an area that's 135-145, and my cages are big enough to offer multi-temp basking platforms that give them options everywhere from 105 up. I have seen them actively choose areas that were in the 150s, although I have also seen them use the 105 spots for days on end without wanting more. Seems to depend on the lizard, the day, and also what time it is. They normally seem to like to start the day by basking at at least 120 for a few minutes, which is usually the only time of day I see them gaping, then they poop, run around, and eat like pigs, then as the day progresses they generally start to show less interest in the hottest spots.

Throughout all of this, whenever I wait ten minutes or so until they stop basking and then zap them on the back with a temp gun to see what they've cooled to, I seem to consistantly get a skin surface temperature of 102, regardless of what temp they were basking at and whether they've been running around/hanging out in the 92-plus-degree branches or on the 84-plus-degree ground. What that means they're maintaining internally, I don't know. I suspect that given a choice they probably decide to keep different organs different temperatures, and the hot spots help them do that by flash-basking their muscles without, for example, overheating their intestinal flora.

I started my trio in a 48X18X21 and now have them in a 50X28X28 and I assure you that no matter how I change the setup and no matter how many more typical, mild basking options I give them, it continues to be common for them to climb wherever they have to seek out far hotter temperatures than most people suggest. Make of that what you will.

They eat best in the morning after a quick heatup. Oh, I've seen them take longer to warm up (sometimes my temps have an off day or two, if the weather changes or one of the bulbs dies or whatever) and still eat later, but I've also seen them sort of lose interest if they miss that first window of opportunity. Like there's a little voice saying "Hey, if it's taking this long to get warm, maybe you should be hibernating?"

Also: Have you tried superworms? They aren't the greatest staple in the world, but they're a big meaty insect that most will devour. Their main problem is fattiness, but it sounds like yours could use the extra right now anyway.
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0.1 2006 Western Hognose (Bebe)
0.1 age unknown Cane Toad (Hengo)
0.1 2005 White-Banded Sheen Skink (Minerva)
1.0 2006 Northern Diamondback Terrapin (Queequeg)
1.0 2006 Madagascan Speckled "Hognose" (Sigmund)
1.0 2008 Bullsnake (Winkle)
1.2 2008 Eastern Collared Lizards (Pancho, Lupe, and Chica)
2.0 2009 Eastern Collared Lizards (Cesar and Nino)

I don't think those collareds that are probably already very dehydrated and thin can tolerate higher end temps, and probably not even bugs.

You do need to create a temp gradient from the upper 80s to 90 with a basking surface temp in the 100-105 range. Then you either need to see a vet or you can try soaking the two bad ones in a shallow container of warm water (no higher than their arm pits) and see if they drink, or try dripping water from a dropper on to their noses and see if they lap. Once you get the temps worked out and get them hydrated, they will probably start eating.

Are these wild caught or captive bred?

I've never had to rehab one yet, obviously.
What about Pedialyte? Or its cheaper generic clones? I've seen it do wonders with snakes that were in bad shape.
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0.1 2006 Western Hognose (Bebe)
0.1 age unknown Cane Toad (Hengo)
0.1 2005 White-Banded Sheen Skink (Minerva)
1.0 2006 Northern Diamondback Terrapin (Queequeg)
1.0 2006 Madagascan Speckled "Hognose" (Sigmund)
1.0 2008 Bullsnake (Winkle)
1.2 2008 Eastern Collared Lizards (Pancho, Lupe, and Chica)
2.0 2009 Eastern Collared Lizards (Cesar and Nino)

Thanks a lot for the info guys. i'll check the temps with a thermometer when i get in today and try soaking them as well as using a dropped to give them water. dehydration didnt even occur to me because there DFU looked normal.
i'm not sure how to sax them, but i'll try to figure that out and separate them if they are both males. we did originally have 1 male and one female, but the breeder screwed up an order and sent us 2 more collareds.

remember, that this is a pet store with one of the big display ceases for the reptiles. the enclosures are small and you can control the temp, but its for the whole case not each individual enclosure. we have to keep the temps somewhere in the middle for all of the animals currently housed in it (Cal King, 2 corns, leopard gecko, leopard frogs, beardie, golden geckos, red sided skink, and 2 pac mans).

thanks guys, i really am doing the best i can.

Hon, I commend you for trying, but how in the world does the store expect to keep that range of animals healthy with one temp environment??? You are going from forest type dwellers to semi desert and desert! I just don't see how that is doable.

Jack, yes, you can use pedialyte or one of its generics instead of water in the dropper, but I am opposed to soaking the animal in it because I have seen bad results from that. Once you get some straight fluids down them, then you can mix in either baby food puree or my favorite, ReptiAid for insectivores, and I add a touch of soy yogurt.

Once you have the temps adjusted, and they MUST be adjusted or the babies just won't thrive, then two or three dropper feedings and a few soaks should be enough and you can reintroduce crix. Continue to offer water through the dropper at least one a day.

Our collared Queen and fabulous moderator has an excellent care sheet that you might find very informative. You can find it here:
http://www.suncharmers.com/id15.html

She also has a sexing guide with pics here
http://www.suncharmers.com/id10.html

We wish you luck and are here for you!

The beardie also needs the same temp gradient, both cool side and basking and needs both greens and bugs daily. If it is a baby beardie, you should be feeding it all the bugs it will eat in ten minutes, 2-3 times a day plus salad, or it will not grow and thrive.

I hope they all turn around for you. Keep us posted!

i checked the temps today with a thermometer and even though the over all temp is set to 80* each enclosure on the rack has different temp gradients. i'll be keeping that in mind when ordering from now on. the thin collareds are in the hottest with a basking temp of 100* and an ambient temp going down to about 83*. they are still both pretty active, but still not eating. i soaked them both twice today and they both drank from the water itself and water dripped on their nose. they were not too keen on the pedialite, but they both got a little bit of that as well. i found that all 3 of them are males, they may just be stressing each other out? the other one is doing great, active as can be and munching down crickets. hopefully they will pull through this. thanks again guys.

That is great! Yeah, reptiles can be starting to get dehydrated and still produce urates, but the longer they go without eating, the more dehydrated they become. Then it all becomes a vicious cycle. I always start with hydration, then move back toward nutrition.

Does your pet store sell Flukers ReptiAid insectivore hand feeding formula? If so, you might try mixing up a little of that. Mix it on the thin side and offer it to them by dropper. It has a nutrition boost and an appetite stimulant. I find that a few feedings of that really helps kick in their appetite.

keep us posted!

no we dont, i'll see if i can find some though and i'll keep some on hand just in case.

thanks again, i'll pick up some pedialyte and a dropper on the way to work today. i know how you feel about the one temp environment, its driving me mad, but my manager is letting me be in charge of ordering herps from now on, so i'm going to try to get animals that will do ok in that environment. it also doesnt help that most of the animals come in sickly from the breeder. i just started working here and most of the animals have been there since i started. so i'm just trying to do what i can for these animals until i can find them a good home.