Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been warning you all for years about the cloud that you big snake owners have cast over us all. You all have totally effed up the entire hobby. I got out of it all a couple of years ago. I notice that Burm, Retic (and several others)owners are to this day just breeding their snakes like there is a never ending supply of buyers. You all mostly never acknowledged the mortal damage they were doing to the herp community. All I ever heard were excuses.

I'll not be signing this or helping in any way. It's to bad it's come to this.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

what "mortal damage" are you talking about?! Jesus H Christ. You just don't like that some of us keep bigger animals? There's been a paltry number of deaths associated with these animals, and while there are some abandonded, it doesn't seem that out of line with corns and kings or other smaller critters. hell, every rescue herp I've taken in has been small--a handful of getula subspecies, a ball python, 2 corns. No retics, rocks, or burms. Not even a boa.

Yes, these animals are possibly dangerous. It is my right as an adult to decide if I want to expose myself to that danger. I'll take steps to minimize it, but it's worth it to me. No body in the general public has ever been killed by a pet snake. In a handful of cases, children of the keeper have been killed. In those cases, negligent homicide (or is it manslaughter?) cases are warranted IMO. A person a year or so dying, out of thousands of keepers, is by no wise extremely dangerous.

Is some regulation warranted? Age limits. but I'd apply that to animals in general, even the smaller colubrids. Possibly a licensing system. I dont' want it to be like Texas' system, because that one is a blatant money grab; you go pay 20 bucks per year and that's it. Don't have to show anything to prove you know a damn thing.

wow, never heard such crazy, uneducated nonesense in all my life.
its not us, its the liberal socialist government we have that want to control our every right and freedom. get off your high horse, and back down to reality
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

LOL he posted the same garbage in the Burmese forum.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Mollie"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie"

Come on, he does have a point. I feel that responsible and properly educated keepers of large constrictors are not the problem, but irresponsible breeders and sales practices are.

Large constrictors like retics, burms and even red tails have no business being sold to the general public. No matter what you say, these are dangerous animals that require very specialized experience and lots of resources to keep. I have seen albino burms and common red tails for sale in Petco. That is downright ridiculous.

Yes, so dangerous that what, 1 person a year dies from giant snakes in the US? Oh so dangerous...as far as special skills...keeping them isn't rocket science. As far as I've been with them, humidity's the biggest problem I have with retics. The rest of it's a mixture of common sense and monetary outlay (caging isn't cheap!).

You are over simplifying things a bit. "Dangerous" covers a lot more then what can kill you. A good bite from a 6 foot python is VERY serious, might even need stitches. Within 5 years a properly cared for Burmese Python will be 10-13 feet long. Lets say a 10 year old kid gets one as a baby from the local petco. After two years that snake is going to be up for adoption or released when they find out no zoo or rescue wants them anymore.

Its a shame more people aren't properly educated and passing that education alone to others. You may think you are "defending" the rights of snake owners but you are doing the exact opposite.

How many people go to the hospital from snake bites? Got any data?
And stitches...I dunno, I guess I don't consider stitches to be a bfd unless it's a lot of them.

Almost 800,000 dog bites a year in the USA!!!

And you are PREACHING that DRIBBLE?

Get a real dose of reality and learn your stats.....

So, we should maybe make sure that everyone that wants to purchase a power tool should be lectured about "its" dangers and make sure that they are going to be responsible?

Have you ever heard about "freedom" and people making some grown up educated choices?

That's right, let's let the Government tell us what we should do and not do...

There will always be mistakes as long as we don't live our lives in a bubble of love and kisses.... That is reality, I don't want to be limited and have my hand held!

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

You need to get your head out of the sand and realize that nobody is trying legislate power tools, they ARE trying to legislate large constrictors. As a result we in the hobby need to do a better job at policing ourselves and making sure our customers have all the information they need to care for what we sell them. Any breeder that sells a retic or burm to a 10 year old kid is the real issue here. We have to think about where these animals are ending up. Its clear that isn't what you care about

Are you really involved in the NERD organization? I know they dont have the best reputation in the hobby and I'm starting understand why.

This guy is a plant folks. He got under my skin to,but I bet he wouldnt say this to any of us face to face. We better freeze him out or our impashioned answers will be printed out of contense. He's a looser in life and this is what they do, hide behind a computer screen. Make stuff up, like 99% figgure,or 10 yr.olds being sold big snakes. He's not impressing anyone here. In the mean time we have done more in one day for animal education/conservation than this dimwitt will ever do in his sorry lifetime. He's most likely 35 yrs old living at home with his disapointed parents. He doesnt know about all the good conservation work that has been financed by events at NRBE (Kevin personaly helped out there). The Mid Atlantic Reptile Expo has been buying up land in central America slated for clear cutting and it goes on and on with every Herp Society in the USA. So I'm not going to wast my time with the punk unless he's willing to do it in public, FACE to FACE! Go ahead punk,any of us any time. Vic Morgan...........pic caption......get

But it's like watching my cat try to catch a laser pointer's dot...he keeps running into walls and not getting it...fun!

Holy crap, is this you?

http://jaxherp.tripod.com/vicnrbe03_1.jpg

You shouldn't be mocking anyone or calling anyone a punk. Dont forget to take your Geritol, you wouldn't want to fall and break your hip!!!

Hey.... that is pretty funny......

No, that is not....
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

No idiot, wasn't even talking to you. Seems you can even use a message forum either.

You certainly are a shining representation of the herp society.

http://www.crotalusmetal.com/images/livepics/kev7.jpg

http://www.myspace.com/crotalus

Ahhhhh.....

Not quite....

a bit more METAL than that!
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

"They don't have the best reputation in the hobby"...

Meaning what? They sell burms and retics to little new born babies? Do you really think we sell them to little kids??????

Get my head out of the sand....... The power Tool comment is not worth a response...if you do not understand Sarcasm then my words are Chinese to you!

There is NO WAY we can control everyone from doing things stupid with their pets!!!!!!!!!

NO WAY!!!

NO WAY!!!

That is a FANTASY!!!!

SATAN

>>You need to get your head out of the sand and realize that nobody is trying legislate power tools, they ARE trying to legislate large constrictors. As a result we in the hobby need to do a better job at policing ourselves and making sure our customers have all the information they need to care for what we sell them. Any breeder that sells a retic or burm to a 10 year old kid is the real issue here. We have to think about where these animals are ending up. Its clear that isn't what you care about
>>
>>Are you really involved in the NERD organization? I know they dont have the best reputation in the hobby and I'm starting understand why.
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

You wont respond because you aren't capable of formulating a coherent response. You need to make monosyllabic quips and insults due to a lock of a command of the English language.

You are an adult who still thinks "SATAN" is cool? That usually fades in the 5th grade.

Really?

Hmmmmm.... and tell me, what is your level of reptile knowledge?

What exactly are your qualifications in this field?

Hey...have you written books oh super smart guy?

SATAN...is a huge part of my life...... I worship him and he continues to give me TALENT! You, what has God done for you?

Hail SATAN....... Please hear my words LORD SATAN and give me the strength to do battle against a talentless twit that cries when his mommy shouts at him....

Please..... SATAN do my bidding.....Please help me....he is OH SO STRONG and remarkable!

SANTA
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

What a joke.

http://renaissancereptiles.com/stolen/

What World do you live in dude, In my old school years ago when I was a kid, most of my friends could get their hands on a gun and defiently a knife, so maybe the government should make it illegal to own those too, cause an animal does not kill people, people kill people, cause if this bill does pass a lot of people will loose their jobs and that is excatly what we need now, LOL, And the part that a 10 year old kid buying a large snake shouldn't the parents step in and control that, don't blame the supplier, blame the parnets in that case and every other animal attack too, blame the owner not the supplier or the people who do their research and have no problems with their animals, I've been bitten quite bad by reptiles but I would never blame the animal, I would blame myself cause I took the risk and If your not going to acept the risks or cage the animal right then don't get the animal.

power tools dont kill people people wiseguy.... people with power tools kill and maime.... duuhhhh.

and dangerous dogs are made to be, by there owners... owners need to use muzzles and leashes to prevent bites...

and people who carelessly keep large constrictors are a danger to the public.... its like you are selling a GUN without doing a background check or making people apply for a permit... and when a dog bites someone the owner is charged and the dog is put to sleep....

everyone on here says that the government is taking away your rights to keep dangerous animals... but the fact is YOU HAVE NO right to be a danger to the community.

YOU have no right to TAKE away the PEOPLES right to safely explore the everglades.... because of people like YOU you have taken away the peoples right to enjoy the natural beatuy of the state of florida.... people like YOU profit from selling dangerous animals to IDOTS who release them onto PUBLIC lands!!!

... sure alagators attack people ever year... but its usually because some dumb perrson is playing around were they shouldnt... being ambushed by a 20 burm or retic is DIFFERENT... you never know where these animals are going to strike, at least alagators are predictable and you can avoid an attack.

you are SELFISH profitting on the import of wild animals and DIREGARD THE SAFETLY OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC... thats why you are facing this ban.... false science, ya whatever... smoke and mirrors right? admit it... you know it.... how many time have you been bitten by a large python... how many times have you heard of a baby or adult be constricted to death by onw of YOUR SNAKES....

You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I've kept large constrictors and bred them for well over 20 years. If you have not, then frankly have you no place commenting on what I or anyone else does because you simply have no clue.

Your opinion is ignorant and without merit. Everyone here realizes that you are making no sense at all. Your claims are simply nonsense.

Get over it.
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

so how many people have been attacked by burmese pythons in the 'glades? Can you find me some data? Jesus H. Christ, ya'll are spouting off but when you're asked for data you just spout BS. I guess backing up claims of them being dangerous and hurting people are too hard to verify for ya'll...maybe that should be a clue that it isn't really that common?

how many people get attacked in their own homes each year that do, and don ot make it on the news? hmmm you CAN put two and two together right?

surely you're not telling me that retics and burms arent dangerous.... i wonder how a captive retic would start to behave after a few months of not being fed by the owner, it would turn from being a placid animal to a hungry EATING MACHINE... that is what nature created them to be isnt it?

So, are you gonna provide data? Hospitals track types of injuries that come in you know--bites, stings, car accidents, shootings, work accidents, etc. If you want to actually do something besides spouting off, you might start with the CDC's website and go from there. Or you can keep looking stupid.

if you are somehow trying to compare the amount of people injured by dogs to the amount of people injured by snakes there is no comparison.... dog owners are far more common that snake owners, and i bet if you crunched the CDC numbers the amount would be proportional to each other... and if you digged even further you'd probabely discover that people who keep and breed large constrictor receive very bad bites 100% of the time, escape of snakes from their inclosures would also be 100%.

fact is dogs dont bite people because they are hungry... they do it for protection... large constrictors also bite in defense but also bit to kill and EAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you are unlucky enough to encounter a hungry retic and it bites you and throws coils around you the chances are ITS TRYING TO KILL YOU.

hows that for looking stupid... are maybe you cant do the math because its been awhile since you dropped out of 5th grade.

I wouldn't be saying anybody dropped outta 5th grade with the grammar and spelling problems you have buddy!!!

i have typing problems.... not spelling problems. and it's out of, not outta... so stfu, and pull up your cover-alls, put some shoes on, and take that dip out of your mouth country boy haha.

you read my post and thats the most creative thing you could think of saying? your not going to say "the DFW uses bogus science" "its a fruad and conspiracy" "its a violation of my rights, i can breed these them there retic in my basement and get rich quick."

... cant you hear the violins playing your song?

dog owners are far more common that snake owners, and i (I) bet if you crunched the CDC numbers the amount would be proportional to each other
.If that's the case, then why ban snakes and not dogs?

and if you digged (dug) even further you'd probabely (probably) discover that people who keep and breed large constrictor receive very bad bites 100% of the time, escape of snakes from their inclosures (enclosure) would also be 100%.

So you think every body who keeps large boids gets a bad bite from a large boid? Huh? I've *never* had a major bite from a large boid. Large dogs, yes. Dogs that weren't mine, yes. A pet bird, yes. A monitor, yes. A large boid? Nope. Or do you mean 100% of medically meaningful bites come from large boids? That might be accurate, but EVEN THEN you have to compare them to the number of people that keep boids. Clear up your statement, and go ahead and get those states. Find me how many people go to the hospital every year for snake bites, ok? Otherwise you're just pissing in the wind. After that, we can discuss how those compare to the number of people that keep snakes. And 100% getting out of cages? That's an idiotic statement. Escapes happen with all species...I've never had a big snake get out of it's cage. I have had small ones escape a few times though. Baby corns...ugh, they can get out of the smallest holes.

fact is dogs dont bite people because they are hungry... they do it for protection... large constrictors also bite in defense but also bit to kill and EAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you are unlucky enough to encounter a hungry retic and it bites you and throws coils around you the chances are ITS TRYING TO KILL YOU.
You know, when I lived near Denver, there was a lady killed and eaten by her neighbors rotties. Just munched her down. Amazingly gruesome. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what the animals intent is if it kills you. You're still dead.

My dad was a emergency room doctor for 25 years guess how many exotic snake bites he saw in that entire time...... NONE!!! guess how mays dog bites he saw ...1-2 a week. Guess how many bites that required medical attention I've had in the 25 years I've been keeping snakes.... None meanwile one of my younger sisters lost hear hearing and sight on her right side from a dog attack 20 years ago, My uncle last year was attacked by a stray dog that did tendon and ligament dammage to his leg. Yes dogs are more common so you would expect to see more dog bites but snakes arn't that uncommon anymore even if you look at the adjusted relative frequences and did a complete statistical analisys dogs or cats or birds,horses,cows,goats or just about any other animal with the possible execption of goldfish harm far more people then snakes ever will.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Come on guys - stop tossing our truths and data. It is more fun to let people just rant lame comments.

Honestly I have kept large snakes for a long time and have never had to seek medical attention for a bite.

My children - Daughter - 7, sons - 10 and 13 have large constrictors. We have rules in my house too. They are not allowed to hold the snakes without me around - they are kept in my locked reptile room. According to some of these people, that is impossible. I think they have it in their mind that people just keep snakes roaming lose and hungry and at risk of kiling the next unlucky thing to come by.

I'll say it again - get me the data. If you don't keep large snakes and have no data - the bite it.
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

The only bite I've sought medical attention for was from my neighbor's dog. It tore the hell out of my left thigh and butt cheek. No fun.

dont feed your retics or bumrs for 3 months... then try and clean their cage... see if they try and bite. talk about flying missle with teeth.

So, irrelevant statements are all you have? No hard facts, no data? Cause I haven't seen any from you, or for that matter, vichris. Just a bunch of speculation and inane statements about how dangerous they are with zero (0) data to back it up. Lovely.

Isn't it wonderful not to have to deal with reality? Just ignore data and go with whatever suppositions make you happy...great way to propose legislation.

>>dont feed your retics or bumrs for 3 months... then try and clean their cage... see if they try and bite. talk about flying missle with teeth.

Unfortunately I will strongly disagree. I work in rescue and often deal with underfed snakes or starved snakes. And this is of ALL species. I have dealt with animals of this nature for 15 years and the only bites I have received are from my personal animals. An intelligent handler rarely gets bit.

Also before you begin regularly attacking users here, I would like to ask that you read the forum and get to know people. Furthermore, please take a moment to review our terms of service to use these forums.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Email Cindy
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Wow,
Have you ever actually worked with a snake of any kind? Your comments are so far from the truth I honestly can't figure out whether to laugh or cry. As for your comment on flying missile snakes after 3 months of no feeding....hmmm... are you aware that many of these large snakes go off of feed naturally for several months out of the year? I work with rocks, retics, anacondas, and scrubs and all of them can be worked with to be trained to know the difference between feeding time and cleaning time even after their normal fast period (for a few of mine it goes 6 to 7 months). Yup, even then I can tap their snouts lightly with a tap pole and then go about my business of shifting them or crating them. As for feed response, yes these animals have a very healthy appetite, but then so do many dogs. Try taking a bone from a dobie, pit, or rottie and in many cases you'll get bit. Same goes for a retic and a rabbit. Doesn't mean the snake is pure unbridled evil, it just means that you need to be a little smarter than the snake. Proper husbandry, good old fashioned common sense, and the right tools to work with these snakes makes them no more dangerous then the keeping of any other large animal.
You also are too much of a novice to know that the vast majority of bites from snakes (large and small) are defensive in nature. Meaning they bite quickly and release just as quickly. Not every snake is looking to eat you, your friend, your friends baby. Also, most bites from large snakes can be avoided with, again, the utilization of the proper tools and safety protocols. Does this mean a person will never take a hit from a pet snake? No, but hey there is a chance I might get a cut on my hand while working in the yard pruning the rose bushes. Your inability to see the forest for the trees shows you to be ignorant of any fact, experience, or opinion worth the air it takes for you to express it. Your diatribe has been little more than a blame game with no real reason for existence other then a means for you to vent your little piece of hate. Sadly our society has come to the conclusion that all noise has merit and should be heard, when, as your sad commentary proves, too much noise keeps the truth from being heard.
Shane

and it will be DEAD!

Wow, what an amazing point I just made.....

and I will even add......take away its water for a 14 days and it will also be dead....

Wow....

Amazes us "Mr. Mysterio" with more of your amazing and pointless statements!

SANTA
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Could this have something to do with SATAN?
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Dont waste your time, the few people responding here are obviously personally involved and have slanted views. The owner of NERD (if that is him) is obviously only worried about not being able to make a few extra bucks. What is funny is the NERD website even lists them as only for Advanced keepers.

>>Dont waste your time, the few people responding here are obviously personally involved and have slanted views. The owner of NERD (if that is him) is obviously only worried about not being able to make a few extra bucks. What is funny is the NERD website even lists them as only for Advanced keepers.

What? A few extra bucks.... that is my point here?

Are you kidding me? I did not get into keeping snakes so I could pursue a living where I am constantly struggling to make it because I happen to dedicate my life to my animals....

and yes, for advanced keepers...you know, ones with some experience beyond the keeping of corn snakes, earwigs and geckos.....

SATAN
Weeee....... I'm RICH [bleep]!
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

No, what come across as is ignorant an unable to make a valid point.

Whats with the SATAN thing? Is that cool?

If I need to explain it to you then it is not worth the effort to explain...

Maybe I am being literal.....or maybe not?

>>No, what come across as is ignorant an unable to make a valid point.
>>
>>Whats with the SATAN thing? Is that cool?
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Punk ass [bleep] you is thinkin dat big dat snack I sels kill dat boy... cuz i gots de money from its and now I gona laff my wyz to de bank... and dat 20 fots snakc hunt inocent peoples in de glades cuz when dey gets big i lets them go too ate gator fur food and come bak home when de get big nuff to sell to zoo fer reward.

There, I have used appropriate intellect to do battle Sir. We are now on a level playing field. Please make your appropriate inbred response.

>>power tools dont kill people people wiseguy.... people with power tools kill and maime.... duuhhhh.

** Oh my, do I need to look up the number of deaths and injuries from power tools? Hey, did you know that chain saws can't hurt you...it is the gasoline in the chain saw's fuel tank that has been sold to us by Muslim extremist.... acts of TERRORISM!

>>
>>and dangerous dogs are made to be, by there owners... owners need to use muzzles and leashes to prevent bites...

** Really, and we should all roll around in giant FERRET BALLS that will protect us from the dangers outside our homes. You are PRECIOUS!
>>
>>and people who carelessly keep large constrictors are a danger to the public.... its like you are selling a GUN without doing a background check or making people apply for a permit... and when a dog bites someone the owner is charged and the dog is put to sleep....

** Really? What exactly does that statement mean?
It is people like you that play with building blocks and get arrested for eating paper towels while trying to sing the title track to orphan Annie...... and then the producer of the show gets beaten to death for poor dental hygiene?
Was that what you were trying to say?

>>
>>everyone on here says that the government is taking away your rights to keep dangerous animals... but the fact is YOU HAVE NO right to be a danger to the community.

** I do have the right to be a danger to the community..... I am listed as THE danger to the community and people will often visit my building with torches, pitchforks and bananas calling me out in the middle of the night. I pay good money to be a danger to my community!
>>
>>YOU have no right to TAKE away the PEOPLES right to safely explore the everglades.... because of people like YOU you have taken away the peoples right to enjoy the natural beatuy of the state of florida.... people like YOU profit from selling dangerous animals to IDOTS who release them onto PUBIC lands!!!
>>
** "To safely explore the everglades"? Ummmm....well we as a species are doing a great job at making the everglades smaller and safer as we reduce the wild fauna that lives there.... The natural beauty....and the snakes are ruining that too?
Well, I do sell some snakes that get big but I do not regard my little gems as do you... "Idots".....

Is that some form of Islamic dot head would be snake buyer? I have never heard of that term.... You are from the other part of town I see..... I have heard about that place.... Where people are free and safe from the fears of life as long as their pimp takes care of them and they keep delivering the money... where education is just another chore of life and it is better to just live your life without the worries of life and responsibilities... Kind of like the people of ACORN.

>>... sure alagators attack people ever year... but its usually because some dumb perrson is playing around were they shouldnt... being ambushed by a 20 burm or retic is DIFFERENT... you never know where these animals are going to strike, at least alagators are predictable and you can avoid an attack.

** Ambushed, by a big snake? Wow..... Sheesh..... Gosh, that is terrible.... I can not believe that this has happened... Wow..

That sounds like real news..... Did Mr. Rogers not like you?

>>
>>you are SELFISH profitting on the import of wild animals and DIREGARD THE SAFETLY OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC... thats why you are facing this ban.... false science, ya whatever... smoke and mirrors right? admit it... you know it.... how many time have you been bitten by a large python... how many times have you heard of a baby or adult be constricted to death by onw of YOUR SNAKES....

Well, my little man with a severely squished cranium.... you are quite an amusing little little ball of poor knowledge... let me guess, you are 5 - 6 years old and your mommy that is twelve is helping you along with this? You take turns typing and trying to look through a dictionary from the Ghetto.

Your last statement is just too stupid to even respond too.

Do you bathe?

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

being sold in a Pet Store?

Are you serious?

So, we just continue to isolate the world from these remarkable creatures and what importance does the rain forest have? My first real snake ( beyond garter snakes and such) was a Boa, I love that snakes and it started "it all" for me. That snake never hurt me and I had it since I was twelve... it was AWESOME! You think that they should not be available to other people? You would be doing a serious injustice to snakes as pets by excluding the ownership of this species...

Ah, special permit...how then are people going to learn about keeping such constrictors when they need some special permit first just to own one. WHo would regulate this? Have you ever seen how overwhelmed the local Fish and Game officers are? They spread them so thin that they could not even wrap their brains around who should or should not get the permit. If the snake was set up right.... they don't generally even know one snake species from another!!!!

You want permits, who would be in control of all of this?

Man....Boas? Boas are not DANGEROUS!!!!!!!

Come on now!!!!

If you remove these species from our lives then you just help speed the destruction of our natural resources.... live in a world of make believe, plastic and video games and people don't care about the rain forest, the coral reef, the woooded lot down the street or the field that used to be the hunting ground for a pair of Kestrels!

We need and want people to interact with ANIMALS!!!!! Stop trying to prevent this kind of thing just because you seem to think everything is DANGEROUS!!

Santananatataa

>>Come on, he does have a point. I feel that responsible and properly educated keepers of large constrictors are not the problem, but irresponsible breeders and sales practices are.
>>
>>Large constrictors like retics, burms and even red tails have no business being sold to the general public. No matter what you say, these are dangerous animals that require very specialized experience and lots of resources to keep. I have seen albino burms and common red tails for sale in Petco. That is downright ridiculous.
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

just like bears, tiger and the like... they should only be kept for education and conservation and not sold to the general public... seriously do you think your average hobbiest is going to help remove a reptile off the endangered species list? that is false... tell me how is selling a some boleans pythons to some shmo in new jersey is going to help preserve a species... joe shmo for jersey is gonna keep the animal alive for a while and show it off to his freinds and then it is going to die... having the exact oppistie effect of conservation.... you can run around and around with whatever argument but really in the end its called th REPTILE BUSINESS and it is for PROFIT.... so say whatever about "saving the rainforests" and importin for the good of preservation.... BS!!!!!!!!!!! cash in the pocket man that what it biols down too... and how much do you spend on wild caught animals?... how much do you make.... its a lot... and everyone here including kindsnake has a part in it. tell that to your congressman!!!! you are profitting off of the sale of wild animals at the expense of other people, and how do you return your appreciation?..... YOU DONT, you say ITS MY RIGHT.... blah blah blah... time to face the music and close up shop.

The average hobbyist cannot afford a Boelens python. I would think that people who have the funds for one or a pair have a vested interest in the species.
Nice try though. Come up with a better example for your rant.
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old

Ok Pookie Pie...

WHo said importing reptiles takes them off the endangered species list? Stop sucking your thumb and read....

I said that the keeping of reptiles such as boa constrictors allows people that would not normally interact with such creatures a chance to appreciate them. They get to see the reality of the animal and may even wish to keep one as a pet, that in itself is how us herpers are made! Secondly, I am generally talking about Captive Bred animals!!!! I am not talking about imports.... So you are comparing things like boa constrictors to managing a Tiger? Wow! That really makes sooooo much sense.

Ummm, not really!
We do reptile shows and use live animals to captivate people such as little kids and encourage them to learn and appreciate them! THis in turn makes people appreciate such things as the rain forest, the animals and other eco systems. I think it is important for these animals to be part of people's lives.... a sharp contrast to things such as make believe and video games!!

Making them illegal is not going to help this point.

Santa

>>just like bears, tiger and the like... they should only be kept for education and conservation and not sold to the general public... seriously do you think your average hobbiest is going to help remove a reptile off the endangered species list? that is false... tell me how is selling a some boleans pythons to some shmo in new jersey is going to help preserve a species... joe shmo for jersey is gonna keep the animal alive for a while and show it off to his freinds and then it is going to die... having the exact oppistie effect of conservation.... you can run around and around with whatever argument but really in the end its called th REPTILE BUSINESS and it is for PROFIT.... so say whatever about "saving the rainforests" and importin for the good of preservation.... BS!!!!!!!!!!! cash in the pocket man that what it biols down too... and how much do you spend on wild caught animals?... how much do you make.... its a lot... and everyone here including kindsnake has a part in it. tell that to your congressman!!!! you are profitting off of the sale of wild animals at the expense of other people, and how do you return your appreciation?..... YOU DONT, you say ITS MY RIGHT.... blah blah blah... time to face the music and close up shop.
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

On a side note this should be pretty cool!!!

Also another nice clutch of retics coming out!!!

well maybe then your animal demonstrations will keep you from skinning all your animals.... really, though i dont understand why you arent prepared to deal with this situation (especially seeing as you are a dominate force in the reptile biz) because you should have seen it coming many years ago... its sorry to say but all you have to do is look through the classifieds and you can see profiteering idiots selling off animals to anyone with credit card, no questions asked.

>>well maybe then your animal demonstrations will keep you from skinning all your animals.... really, though i dont understand why you arent prepared to deal with this situation (especially seeing as you are a dominate force in the reptile biz) because you should have seen it coming many years ago... its sorry to say but all you have to do is look through the classifieds and you can see profiteering idiots selling off animals to anyone with credit card, no questions asked.

No, I did not see it coming. Why would I think that they are seeking to ban Pythons and boas. Do you realize as the bill was it said Pythons and Boas.... SWEEPING HAND INVASIVE SPECIES!!

Did you see that coming? ALL Pythons and Boas being banned by stuffed shirts that have ZERO appreciation for animals, the environemnt, and pets... they appreciate Narcascism, feeling important and a stiff drink!

It is rather surreal to see them in action and these people are creating and passing laws without understanding even simple points.

We don't want to "allow" them to sneak through ANY of these species..... it has to be all or nothing! Once they win some of them they are coming back for more...WEAKNESS SHINES!

This is not just about me and if I can "deal" with it.... I want EVERYONE to have these rights and of course it is best to think qualified people will be keeping these snakes. These animals are important and SHOULD be attainable as pets!

No, I never saw this coming, it is rather hard to imagine such severe laws would ever be considered....

but then again, I never thought that giving TERRORIST crayons, water colors and cupcakes to aid in their "rehabilitation" from being a terrorist would become reality!

I suppose I am far to the other side from such "Liberal" thinking... Making people safe from the 9 larger growing species?

Allowing 9/11 Terrorist to be "tried" in NY while being protected by our LAWS....at the expense to the NY taxpayer?

Beyond belief! I HATE THIS TYPE OF LOGIC!

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

I think our political views are identical.
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old

>>well maybe then your animal demonstrations will keep you from skinning all your animals.... really, though i dont understand why you arent prepared to deal with this situation (especially seeing as you are a dominate force in the reptile biz) because you should have seen it coming many years ago... its sorry to say but all you have to do is look through the classifieds and you can see profiteering idiots selling off animals to anyone with credit card, no questions asked.

Seems kind of crazy to think on the other side of "that" fence....

Kevin
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

First of all Tigers and Bears have to be kept in a very large cage and fed a lot and there is no real possible way to restrain an animal of that size by your self, but with a large snake there is a way to restrain it by your self and that is by bending it's tail backwards and the snake will let go and a large snake only needs a 4'X2' cage or 6'X3' cage not a huge 12'X20' Cage like a Tiger and a Tiger and or Bear Should be able to own if you show the right Caging for such an animal like that, and go through tons of paper work and regulations and a [bleep] load of money to own one of those, this country's laws is turning into like the old ages where a person who didn't believe in Christ would be out-casted and killed, well this is the same sence but were not being killed but kept from what we believe in and want and some might starve cause animals kept them fed and their family's fed from breeding these animals, and these people can't pay their bills and can't find a job.

before you start talking get a little education so you dont sound so ignorant!!!!!!! Its your government thats tring to pass these dumb laws because of the problem in Florida with the burmese python. You tell me how passing this law is going to solve that problem? Its going to make it worse cause then if you cant keep your snakes more people will release them. It will make it worse. The least you can do is learn your facts before you start mouthing big snake owners.

Ah, Vichris how nice it must be to be able to sit in your ivory tower and pass such wide sweeping and wise judgment on thousands of snake owners. How great it must be to have the knowledge and foresight to know without any shadow of a doubt that I should not have the right to keep the snakes that I find interesting and have kept for years and years and spent thousands and thousands of dollars on to properly house, feed, and maintain. Over all of these years I never saw the gross negligence and error of my ways. I for one applaud your thoughtful, poignant insight based on what must be a vast reservoir of knowledge that could have only come from years and years of hands on experience and knowing all of us no good, low down large snake keepers hell bent on the destruction of the hobby. Only someone with your omniscience could see the audacity of people such as myself who with little intelligence and major personality flaws allow themselves to be involved in such a completely irresponsible, underhanded, low brow activity as the keeping of large constrictors. Up until your sage wisdom was so humbly set forth I was completely unaware that these animals were in the same league as elephants and tigers. And this even after several years working in the zoo field with large cats such as tigers, leopards, cheetah, and lynx. Yes, you are right and me, I am wrong. Your scholarly approach to the facts and wide ranging research has shown us all that yes, these animals, the very ones we have been keeping for years have, all along, been far more dangerous then the one or less deaths per year would have had us believe. It couldn’t possibly be the fault of the one or two people that keep their snakes in aquariums with a quilt for a lid, hand feed their large snakes, or medicate them alone. You are right it is my fault, and you are right we should be saved from ourselves by the government who has never been wrong in the past and who themselves, much as yourself, can be expected to use ironclad logic, and hard science to save the country from being overran by ecosystem destroying, children eating, slimy, lidless creatures from the deep green equatorial regions of the netherworld (and of course, the people who love them). Yes, yes I see it now, 1 1 truly does equal 3. Logic and truth. Truth and logic. Vichris, you truly are the master of both and I for one completely applaud your sage wisdom.
Shane

I guess if you want to say selling to irresponsible people is the problem then why is a ban on the item being sold the solution? If that were the case then:
Pit Bulls and a lot of other known potentionally dangerous breeds should be banned because of some bad owners.
Cats should be banned because of some feral cats doing damage to wildlife because of some people releasing them into the wild.
Guns should be banned because of some people who abuse them.
Alcohol should be banned because some people drink and drive.
Cigarettes should be banned because some people want to force other people to breathe their smoke.
In each of these cases there are already laws to try and correct the action of the people abusing these things. A total ban wouldn't work. Look at prohibition on alcohol. Didn't work.
I believe in freedom and with that comes responsibility by the user and owner as well.
At some point they will get to something YOU like and are BLIND to the potential problems of.
Maybe you will have another fellow hobbyist, smoker, drinker, dog-cat owner let you know "I TOLD YOU SO". Wow what a help that will be to you.
By the way I don't keep any large snakes so I don't have a dog in this fight BUT I am smart enough to realize this is not the answer and needs to be stopped now. Just because some people have been irresponsible doesn't mean punish everyone.
Ps-I think this will kill a lot of herp shows since it will be illegal to cross state lines with some of your herps. Why pay a high price for a table to just bring some of your stuff.

What I don't understand is the logic of it all. Pythons and Boas can not survive in 99% of the contenintal United States. What this guy doesn't seem to understand is the snakes that can survive here, are all those colubrids, that are being imported and bred at the same rate if not more than Pythons and Boas. Colubrids live in the U.S. and would fit nicely into our ecosystem(survive and make a negative impact). Does he think they will stop at big snake? I think this guy probably just likes to get on forums and tick people off to try and distract himself from how miserable his own life is.Just my opinion.

Freedom is a right which is being taken away everyday and no one cares until it affects something they love. It will, eventually, affect us all.

I love how the blame just falls on everyones shoulders. This is the ridiculous fellow who pops up every now and again and causes a rucous just to stir people up then is gone for a while. It's nice to know that all of us who have ever even thought about keeping a large constrictor or a hot herp are to blame for this legislation being brought down on us like white on rice. If not for those of us and the organizations that fight the rule changing during the middle of the game then we would be up the creek. I for one am not going to fade away quietly into the night and let oppression take over my hobby because some un or ill informed senator has a hard on for showing out to try and make Florida's problem a problem for us all. If Florida wants to fix their problem then that's fine with me. I'm sure that there would be plenty of volunteers who would be more than glad to assist them in their plight. We have fought gun legislation for years in this country. We have fought time and again to keep what we love and love to do in this country. No one is forced to deal with our hobby(s). We truly represent the flag that was flown during the American revolution. "Don't tread on me" The symbol and the saying are as accurate as it gets to this day. We have Gestapoesk officials trying to make us meld into everyone else so we can be a faceless and uniform country these days. We elect morons into office and let the press run stories that are untrue about many many things. The time to stand up and be counted is here. The time to say enough is now. The time for freedom is upon us. I say fight fire with fire. I say we need local, regional and national news coverage of our stories. We need to show the country and the world that not everyone who keeps and or breeds is a monster. We need some positive publicity. We need our friends and family to stand with us. It's not just the keepers and breeders. It's our loved ones who will take the economic hit with us if things go down the drain. Our friends and family will make more numbers to take the battle to the legislators and turn the course of the fight more in our favor. Our forefathers faced a huge task in fighting for our freedom to be our own country, and now we are at the same crossroad for our personal freedoms. Never give up! Never surrender!!
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1.0 100% het albino columbian
0.1 pastel columbian
0.1 hypo columbian
0.1 guyana
0.1 surinam
0.2 jcp
1.0 irian jaya
1.1.1 normal balls
1.0 granite al burm
0.1 granite het al burm
0.1 albino burm
1.0 sunfire retic
0.2 tiger retics

I dont share your general disgust with all large constrictor keepers, I definitely blame the shameless breeders and sellers of these animals.

The pet hobby is to blame for this more than anyone. It is completely irresponsible and needless to breed big constrictors. There is no need to breed common Burms, Retics, Rocks, Anacondas, or even Red Tails. 99% of these animals go to people who have no idea what they are in for. It takes a lot of know how and even more space and money to keep a large constrictor. The average snake buyer has NO IDEA what they are getting into when they but these cute little babies. Properly cared for, a Retic or Burm will be 6 feet after 2 years and too big and dangerous for the average person. In my area Zoo's and animal rescues are overwhelmed with the number of large snakes people are trying to unload. They wont even take them anymore. I can get half a dozen free large constrictors tomorrow if I wanted to. Until the pet trade and breeders stop the irresponsible breeding and sales practices of these animals, nothing will change. For christs sake, the Petco near me sells baby red tails and Albino Burms, I guarantee the type of buyer that would buy a snake at Petco has no idea what they are in for.

Breeders CAN NOT keep breeding these animals and selling them to just anyone, its IRRESPONSIBLE!!!!

Thanks for the input. You are entitled to your opinion. In American we are supposed to be a free country to do as we want.

It is not illegal and has not been illegal to own and breed any constrictors, small, medium or large. You have a lot of statements to make and guarantees to make, but similar to the people trying to ramrod 373, you have no data.

Data is very much needed in this case. People who have kept large constrictors for over two decades have data. We know what we are talking about as fact and not opinion.

Your opinion is allowed but clearly not accurate and not appreciated. You are in the wrong forum. The people in this forum are not crack smokers, we are experienced keepers with years and years of background in this business and hobby.

Merry Christmas everyone - my gift to myself is a new incubator. I'm counting on some good clutches this year! I have a feeling that people don't even realize that the majority of what is bred in the US (constrictors) doesn't even stay in the US, but is exported. Yep, like I said - people like to spout opinions, but have NO DATA.
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

Are you serious? You actually think like this?

Are you afraid of the Cookie Monster too?

WOW!

SATAN
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

and alot of their owners.

BTW I didn't read ANY of your responds because frankly I don't give a sh*t about what you have to say.

I'm not for banning big snakes either I'm just for extreme regulation. Ya'll have effed up this hobby for long enough.

So I'm going to point out a few of the reason I'm so jaded to you big snake owners.

1) Big snake owners posing as pet friendly people and taking FREE Puppies and Kittens and feeding them to their snake because they can’t afford the food.

2) Big snake owners using their big snake as social statement, prop, or to gain attention. You don't see gun owners walking around flashing their pistols in the public even in open carry states. Most people understand discretion. Alot of big snake owners do not.

3) Big snake owners who breed and then sell them without really telling the buyers just what kind of commitment they are getting into.

4) Big snake owners who release their snakes.

5) Big snake owners who have already cause many herp shows to close down because the local authorities have forced show vendors to purchase business licenses, breeders permits, and exotic animal permits. They have also brought negative attention from state Fish and Game Depts.

6) Big snake owners who have brought a huge amount of negative attention to the hobby by keeping snakes that they cannot control and have killed numerous snake owners and their friends and family not to mention the slew of bites and injuries these snakes have inflicted. I freely admit some of this negative attention was through no real fault of some owners but many are caused because the keepers don’t feed their snakes enough (because they can’t afford it or because it’s to inconvenient) or don’t want to deal with cleaning up the mess they leave.

Now frankly I don’t give a crap what any of you all think of me. Go ahead call me ignorant call me stupid call me uninformed. The fact is I am informed. To well informed. I just posted the personal experiences I have had with big snake owners. I haven’t even mentioned the “hot” herp keepers.

KISS IT
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

How to prepair Christmas jerk. Step 1 rub rabbit on jurk being prepaired. step 2 Place rabbit rubed jurk in hot room. step 3 add 16 ft.face grabber to hot room, lock door, set timer for 30 min.or until large lump appears. BAM.... ENJOY. add a Senitor if expecting a large gathering. joe6pax

now I know you're a troll. Or that you've bought into the HSUS propaganda hook line and sinker.

1) Big snake owners posing as pet friendly people and taking FREE Puppies and Kittens and feeding them to their snake because they can’t afford the food.
--never seen it happen. I've seen people joke about it, yes. Never seen anyone actually do it. There was one case I heard of that was verified, once, with a science teacher feeding an unwanted puppy to a snake, but I'm not sure how he obtained the puppy, if it was under false pretenses or not.

2) Big snake owners using their big snake as social statement, prop, or to gain attention. You don't see gun owners walking around flashing their pistols in the public even in open carry states. Most people understand discretion. Alot of big snake owners do not.
I've seen 0 snake owners--big or small--walking around with their snakes outside of pet stores. And in pet stores I'd call it OK; I mean they *sell* snakes for heaven's sakes, so you gotta recognize the possibility of running into one when you shop there. Now, people know I keep large snakes. My friends and most of my coworkers and my plumber know. But I certainly don't take 'em out in public...nor have I seen ANYONE else do that, ever.

3) Big snake owners who breed and then sell them without really telling the buyers just what kind of commitment they are getting into.
Eh. Unless there's reason to believe they don't know anything, why should they assume we're idiots?

4) Big snake owners who release their snakes.
Truly despicable, but not as common as you think I'd wager.

5) Big snake owners who have already cause many herp shows to close down because the local authorities have forced show vendors to purchase business licenses, breeders permits, and exotic animal permits. They have also brought negative attention from state Fish and Game Depts.

Is that really big snake owners? I know lots of shows have issue in states like Georgia where you can't sell native animals. But that doesn't seem tied into large snakes or their keepers. That seems tied to misguided attempts at conservation (cause corn snakes are really endangered by the pet trade...)

6) Big snake owners who have brought a huge amount of negative attention to the hobby by keeping snakes that they cannot control and have killed numerous snake owners and their friends and family not to mention the slew of bites and injuries these snakes have inflicted. I freely admit some of this negative attention was through no real fault of some owners but many are caused because the keepers don’t feed their snakes enough (because they can’t afford it or because it’s to inconvenient) or don’t want to deal with cleaning up the mess they leave.

Numerous deaths??! What's your definition of numerous? 1 person a year, give or take, seems to be the average. That's pretty damn safe. More people die camping and hiking (two of my other hobbies). And I've NEVER seen a "friend" killed by a large snake. In three cases I'm aware of a child that was part of the care takers family was killed--Colorado (years ago, 14 year old), that case in Florida, and one some years ago in either Indiana or Ill.

>>and alot of their owners.
>>
>>BTW I didn't read ANY of your responds because frankly I don't give a sh*t about what you have to say.
>>
>>I'm not for banning big snakes either I'm just for extreme regulation. Ya'll have effed up this hobby for long enough.
>>
>>So I'm going to point out a few of the reason I'm so jaded to you big snake owners.
>>
>>1) Big snake owners posing as pet friendly people and taking FREE Puppies and Kittens and feeding them to their snake because they can’t afford the food.

If for a MOMENT YOU THINK DOING SUCH THINGS HAS ANYTHING TO WITH REALITY AND snake keepers you are INSANE!@!!!!!

I would basically want to MURDER ANYONE DOING SUCH STUFF...... I am an animal lover and I have a bad enough time feeding off rodents as it is!!

That is a TERRIBLE assumption......

SATAN

>>
>>2) Big snake owners using their big snake as social statement, prop, or to gain attention. You don't see gun owners walking around flashing their pistols in the public even in open carry states. Most people understand discretion. Alot of big snake owners do not.
>>
>>3) Big snake owners who breed and then sell them without really telling the buyers just what kind of commitment they are getting into.
>>
>>4) Big snake owners who release their snakes.
>>
>>5) Big snake owners who have already cause many herp shows to close down because the local authorities have forced show vendors to purchase business licenses, breeders permits, and exotic animal permits. They have also brought negative attention from state Fish and Game Depts.
>>
>>6) Big snake owners who have brought a huge amount of negative attention to the hobby by keeping snakes that they cannot control and have killed numerous snake owners and their friends and family not to mention the slew of bites and injuries these snakes have inflicted. I freely admit some of this negative attention was through no real fault of some owners but many are caused because the keepers don’t feed their snakes enough (because they can’t afford it or because it’s to inconvenient) or don’t want to deal with cleaning up the mess they leave.
>>
>>Now frankly I don’t give a crap what any of you all think of me. Go ahead call me ignorant call me stupid call me uninformed. The fact is I am informed. To well informed. I just posted the personal experiences I have had with big snake owners. I haven’t even mentioned the “hot” herp keepers.
>>
>>
>>KISS IT
>>-----
>>Vichris
>>"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

Read my post above in responds to varanid. We had to kick the fool out of the Arizona Herp Assoc. It was all over the news in Phoenix. As well as the guy who slept with his pet rattlesnake, (and was killed).

>>>>and alot of their owners.
>>>>
>>>>BTW I didn't read ANY of your responds because frankly I don't give a sh*t about what you have to say.
>>>>
>>>>I'm not for banning big snakes either I'm just for extreme regulation. Ya'll have effed up this hobby for long enough.
>>>>
>>>>So I'm going to point out a few of the reason I'm so jaded to you big snake owners.
>>>>
>>>>1) Big snake owners posing as pet friendly people and taking FREE Puppies and Kittens and feeding them to their snake because they can’t afford the food.
>>
>>If for a MOMENT YOU THINK DOING SUCH THINGS HAS ANYTHING TO WITH REALITY AND snake keepers you are INSANE!@!!!!!
>>
>>I would basically want to MURDER ANYONE DOING SUCH STUFF...... I am an animal lover and I have a bad enough time feeding off rodents as it is!!
>>
>>That is a TERRIBLE assumption......
>>
>>SATAN
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>2) Big snake owners using their big snake as social statement, prop, or to gain attention. You don't see gun owners walking around flashing their pistols in the public even in open carry states. Most people understand discretion. Alot of big snake owners do not.
>>>>
>>>>3) Big snake owners who breed and then sell them without really telling the buyers just what kind of commitment they are getting into.
>>>>
>>>>4) Big snake owners who release their snakes.
>>>>
>>>>5) Big snake owners who have already cause many herp shows to close down because the local authorities have forced show vendors to purchase business licenses, breeders permits, and exotic animal permits. They have also brought negative attention from state Fish and Game Depts.
>>>>
>>>>6) Big snake owners who have brought a huge amount of negative attention to the hobby by keeping snakes that they cannot control and have killed numerous snake owners and their friends and family not to mention the slew of bites and injuries these snakes have inflicted. I freely admit some of this negative attention was through no real fault of some owners but many are caused because the keepers don’t feed their snakes enough (because they can’t afford it or because it’s to inconvenient) or don’t want to deal with cleaning up the mess they leave.
>>>>
>>>>Now frankly I don’t give a crap what any of you all think of me. Go ahead call me ignorant call me stupid call me uninformed. The fact is I am informed. To well informed. I just posted the personal experiences I have had with big snake owners. I haven’t even mentioned the “hot” herp keepers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>KISS IT
>>>>-----
>>>>Vichris
>>>>"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius
>>-----
>>"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.
-----
Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

>>Read my post above in responds to varanid. We had to kick the fool out of the Arizona Herp Assoc. It was all over the news in Phoenix. As well as the guy who slept with his pet rattlesnake, (and was killed).

Read/watch/look at them and weep. And none of these refer to the case I had to deal with at the AHA when I lived in AZ.

I have more of these if you need more proof. And you all wonder why some of the rest of us in the herp hobby look at you all with a jaded eye.

http://terrariummorbidum.wordpress.com/2007/04/24/man-to-be-sentenced-in-case-of-puppy-being-fed-to-snake/

http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/6133/FL/US/

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/117

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnD3veGk8U

http://lovelifelikeyourself.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/python-ate-family-dog-in-front-of-children/

http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192819

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/helpless-animals-beg-for-justice

groups.yahoo.com/phrase/free-cats-and-kittens-pets

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/551613/no_free_kittens_free_to_good_home_is.html

I have more of these if you need more proof. And you all wonder why some of the rest of us in the herp hobby look at you all with a jaded eye.
-----
Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

FYI your last three sites are only sites with generalized information about "free pets" and only briefly mentioned use of them as feeders. Sorry, but you can hardly use that as a specific example of what you are trying to prove.

One of the links is a WILD scrub python in Australia that found and ate a dog. Did you know scrub pythons are NATIVE to Australia? That link is not even a case of anyone deliberately trying to feed puppies to their captive snake. Sorry.
Another one you posted is a Yellow anaconda in a DOG CRATE eating a JUMBO RAT. Before posting points you should read your links to make sure they actually are relevant to what you are stating. That leaves us with only 3-4 cases, all in different years. Quite the epidemic isn't it?

http://terrariummorbidum.wordpress.com/2007/04/24/man-to-be-sentenced-in-case-of-puppy-being-fed-to-snake/

This is bad, it is against the law and man was convicted. Is this it? Do you have anything else? This seems to be more about an isolated animal abuse case than a systemic practice of feeding dogs and cats to pythons and boas.



http://www.pet-abuse.com/cases/6133/FL/US/

Link didn’t work



http://www.venomousreptiles.org/articles/117

Nothing happened, the teacher never used the dead animals offered up by the local Humane Society, what is your point?



www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPnD3veGk8U

The video says it’s a rat, come on guy, didn’t you think any one would call you on this??



http://lovelifelikeyourself.wordpress.com/2008/02/27/python-ate-family-dog-in-front-of-children/

Dude, come on, this isn’t even in America and the snake is not a pet, it is a wild snake! Also, didn't the National Enquirer run that other picture of the man snack? These are some rock solid sources that you are citing, I can see you put a lot of work into your research.



http://www.yappi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192819

Again this is bad, but again it seems to me that this incident has more to do with an individual act of animal abuse than a systemic issue with the python and boa industry and hobby. Was the snake even his?




http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/helpless-animals-beg-for-justice 


groups.yahoo.com/phrase/free-cats-and-kittens-pets

Come on, first of all this isn’t even in the US, and are you really taking this as a credible source of information? Are you that freaking gullible?




http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/551613/no_free_kittens_free_to_good_home_is.html 



This link doesn’t work

If this is all you have then you suck, I feel like I'm reading the footnotes of a grade school research paper. Thanks for the laugh.

So, big snakes eat puppies and kittens? Yea? Wow, that's amazing. Considering I know someone at the forefront of the retic world, who happens to breed dogs too...and yet...never has he EVER fed one of his snakes a puppy. And my own snakes get very agitated and stay at the very far end of their enclosure anytime one of my dogs has gotten in the snake room. But I see how they would actively eat something they don't like the smell of. This guy is obviously either A. A plant B. A troll or C. Someone who (partially) read an inflammatory article on a PETA website, and decided that made him an expert.

The entire thread is stupid and these people are misguided. Even Avalanche claims to be a long-term keeper of large boids seems to be misguided.

Sadly I know someone who was struck by a car while riding a bicycle a week ago and he did not make it. He was a professional cycler for many years. If I was like these other people I would say that we need out outlaw bicycles because of this. This was not the fault of the cycler, but the fault of the driver, so while we are at it, lets ban vehicles. It is clear that auto makers and bicycle makers only want one thing - to make money. The are in it for the money and will sell to anyone without asking questions. This is uncalled for and must stop now. BAN ALL BICYCLES and CARS NOW people - can't you see that people can not be trusted to operate these machines or the businesses that sell these machines. Once in Arizona a man was caught riding a bike with a dog in a basket on the handle bars. This is extremely harmful as the dog is not getting exercise and if the man crashed the dog could become injured or worse death could occur.

THIS IS HOW STUPID YOU IGNORANT IMBECILES SOUND!

Get a freaking clue and learn what you are talking about - PLEASE.

If people are idiots, then let's go after the idiots, not the whole - just like anything else.

If any of you lame brains are in CA and want to meet face to face for a real debate I would love to meet up with you at the Pomona show in January. Just let me know. I will be happy to introduce you to a number of large constrictor keeps that are model citizens in general, but also model herp keepers, parents, etc. You need to become educated on the whole and not laser focused on what one or two idiots have done - get serious now and step up to the plate. Come meet me.

Rick
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1.3 Albino Burmese Pythons
1.0 Green Burmese Python Het Albino
0.1 Granite Burmese Python Het Albino
1.0 Albino Boa Constrictor
0.1 Hypo Boa Constrictor
0.1 Het Albino Boa Constrictor
1.2 Purple Albino Retic
1.0 Tiger Retic Het Albino
0.1 Sunfire Retic Het Albino
A lot Ball Pythons
A lot of Corn Snakes
A lot of King & Milk Snakes
0.1 Savannah Monitor
Yes I have the space for these reptiles and yes I am a responsible keeper and breeder!

And we educate people about about someone like yourself who is out for their own simpleminded cause. People like yourself lie in order to get their point across and as long as the ends justifies the means your kind is fine with it.

I have a question for you...how many puppies and kittens has your organization put to death this year because your members think there are too many in shelters?
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

>>And we educate people about about someone like yourself who is out for their own simpleminded cause. People like yourself lie in order to get their point across and as long as the ends justifies the means your kind is fine with it.
>>
>>I have a question for you...how many puppies and kittens has your organization put to death this year because your members think there are too many in shelters?
>>-----
>>Matt Lerer
>> Ghi Reptiles

Which lie??????

The ONLY organizations that I've belonged to are herp organization. I'm also a hunter. I can't stand HSUS, Peta or any other organizations like them any more than you all.

I'm posting stuff that these organization use against most of us in the herp hobby because of the large number of bad apples in the big snake keepers.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

this was the most idiotic topic i think i have seen to date. i work, and have worked in veterinary medicine (emergecny/critical care, and reptile/amphibian specialty) for almost 14 years now. i trust pit-bulls, rotties, and dobies way more than i trust labs, goldens, you know, the typical "family dog". i trust most snakes than i do most dogs. the fact is, you cannot provide accurate data to support why snakes should be "extremely regulated" or banned. what is gonna happen if the retarded and unjustified bill passes, most (if not all) breeders that have large collections, will deem their collection worthless, and what is stopping them from doing a mass release of thousands of tics, burms, annies, rocks, and boas throughout the entire united states. nothing. the fact is, billions of dollars will be lost in the shuffle (of an already dying economy), millions of jobs lost and thousands of families affected. and it does boil down to, our wonderful "government" wanting to control our lives and tell us what we can and cant do, keep, say and express. if snakes should be banned, or have very restricted and regulated permits, then all animals should. way more irresponsible dog and cat owners alone, than any species of snake. plus, way more stray/ferral dogs and cats nationwide, than any snake out there, even the burm issue in the everglades. get some true actual knowledge, then come on back and argue your little point
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

His absolute ignorance makes me believe he is affiliated with HSUS or PETA.

Pure chump change.

B.

that is probably the most true thing stated in this entire thread.
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

Yup, this guy is just having fun pushing everyones buttons. He blames the breeders for the behaviors of the owners. Freedom is just another word for responsibility, the problem with the progressive socialists is that they believe that the public is to stupid to be responsible. Of course they never see themselves or their agenda this way, they are exempt from the stupidity. It is always you and me, not themselves that messed up their life.

>>Yup, this guy is just having fun pushing everyones buttons. He blames the breeders for the behaviors of the owners. Freedom is just another word for responsibility, the problem with the progressive socialists is that they believe that the public is to stupid to be responsible. Of course they never see themselves or their agenda this way, they are exempt from the stupidity. It is always you and me, not themselves that messed up their life.

Its your image thats killing you all. And that is exactly what I have repeated over and over. You are not just killing yourselves you are killing the rest of the hobby. It not the FEW snakes let go, it's not the FEW that have killed their owner or the owners family or friends, its not the FEW who walk around with their big snake as an exhibit, or the FEW who feed their snake dogs and cats. It's the sum of the total. I haven't been to a herp show in two years. Our local show was shut down. I was so disgusted with the last show I sold my breeding colony and got out of the business. We had some very idiotic people at the previous show release a retic in the parking lot of the hotel the show was at, and it was run over. Frankly there were probably about 25% of the attendees that were foolish idiots. The next show federal Game and Fish, local game and fish, State tax and revenue, and city animal control all converged at the show and forced vendors to purchase licenses and permits. We no longer have a show. The local herp keepers suffered.

When I lived in AZ I was accosted by local media because one of the members of the AZ Herp Association was feeding puppies and kittens to their burm. It was an embarassment to the whole club.......especially when it was on all three local news stations in Phoenix.

Its funny how a FEW people can eff up a great hobby. A FEW people have screwed all of you and you did nothing. THAT is what really pisses me off. A FEW people have given you a bad "image" and pissed away your "public relations".

A FEW people are still breeding and selling irresonsibly. (Look below at some of the posts) What are you gonna do about it. And what the hell are you doing about it KS.com

Now I know a bunch of you think I'm part of PETA or HSUS or just some kind of liberal a-hole. I can't stand OBAMA and I think we should all vote for anyone but ANY incumbent. I'm far more conservative than most all of you. I hate big govenment. I cant stand nanny state BS. But at the same time I hate it when you all blindly allow a FEW a-holes to eff up the whole hobby. I'm callin ALL of you out and painting you all with a wide brush BECAUSE YOU ALL have allowed this to happen to yourselves and the rest of the hobby.

That being said its TIME for you all to grow some balls and call those out in YOUR portion of the hobby that reflect poorly on you and the rest of us.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

you are a real piece of work. there are a few idiots in every aspect of life, be it a hobby, a sport, a job, etc. thats the way of the world. the fact is, one a-hole out of hundreds and thousands of hobbiest, just here in az, one freakin moron videotapes himself throwing a kitten to his burm, that is rediculous to put a ban on all large snakes. so by that token, all chickens and roosters should be banned for the few idiots that fight them, all pit bulls and rotties should be banned, because of the fighting and bad rep they get. the fact is, this isnt about banning snakes at all, it is about our so-called government wanting to control our every move and aspect, and put us into their agenda of one world national control. what do you think will happen if this ban is passed, tens of thousands of snakes will be deemed worthless to breeders and more than likely released. then, where are we, a nationwide version of what has happened in florida. get some education, then come spoutin off your mouth about something so rediculous elementary as denying this idiotic python/boa ban.
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

recticguy76 said....

"what do you think will happen if this ban is passed, tens of thousands of snakes will be deemed worthless to breeders and more than likely released. then, where are we, a nationwide version of what has happened in florida".

And you've got the gall to tell me to get some education.

You just really stuck your foot in your mouth and made my point. Its ALL about the money to most of you. They would be deemed WORTHLESS if the banned passed?????? So much for your love of the species and all that bullsh*t.

And then on top of it to admit that they would be likely released. YOU are saying you would do exactly what I have been saying all along. What an absolute fool. I've never said I'm for the ban,.... only self policing and if not that, restriction of ownership.

I guess you just proved that self policing is never gonna work.

Just follow the MONEY. I think I've figured out the problem here. To those of us who truly love herps its "The Hobby". To those of you who truly love MONEY its "The Business".

Hmmmmmmm..... Thanks, you did educate me.
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Vichris
"The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane"- Marcus Aurelius

obviously the small time breeders with just a few pair of breeders wouldnt be affected. the big breeders with hundreds of breeding pairs, would be affected. if the snakes dont bring in money to pay for themselves (ie, food, new caging if needed, etc). they surely are not going to pay out of their own pocket for them. that is why they are in this HOBBY, is because it is a great and rewarding hobby, and it can support itself. i personally breed, not at all for a profit, all of my snakes that i sell go right back into the snake fund for food and the above mentioned. and yes, there are some in it for the money, just like any other business (including other exotics breeding, dog breedings, cat breedings, etc). explain how a ban would postively affect the breeders, the snakes, families of alot of these breeders (that employ multiple employees), and the economy
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

one last thing, the thing i mentioned about multiple snakes more than likely being released is a speculation and a possibility. do you honestly think that keepers with hundreds of of large pythons will truly keep all of their collection they have worked to obtain, breed and then sell. do not ever lump me into just money hungry breeders. i keep 2-3 pairs of breeding retics only, whether this ban passes or not, i will keep mine, because i can afford to keep mine without them having to support themselves. others, that do make retic breeding their ultimate passion and livelyhood, it will negatively affect them. there is no arguing that point. it has been shown, that millions and millions of dollars will be drained from our already struggling ecnonomy. answer me this last question, should all people in businesses, that are "only in it for the money" be banned and shut down
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra

What the hell is wrong with being in business doing what you love!

thats what im talkin bout, travis. there is a difference in people who are in it only for the money (pretty much flippers), and people that are in it for the love and preservation of the species.
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retic is king of kings

1.0 Tiger Retic
1.0 Albino Tiger Retic
0.1 Striped Tiger Retic (het albino)
0.1 Salmon Boa
1.0 Albino Boa
0.1 False Water Cobra