Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Maybe somebody could shed some light on this one for me. I keep hearing on the news, in the papers, and on the internet, that the Burmese in the Everglades were released by irresponsible pet owners. I have never heard of one instance where a hobbyist or breeder has gotten into trouble for releasing Burmese in the Everglades...has anybody else? I have never herd of someone driving all the way to the Everglades just to let their pet go.

Could they have possibly gotten there some other way? I really don't buy the Hurricane Andrew excuse either although I am sure some got loose that way...but not enough to matter.

So my question is: Does anyone know of an instance where a keeper got into trouble for releasing their pet Burmese in the Everglades?
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

I use to live in South Florida and let me tell you the Everglades is widely accessible with many dirt roads and marine areas frequented by people. With so much area it is hard for a handful of Fish and Wildlife Officers to monitor the whole area. There is very little that Florida Fish and Wildlife can do to prevent people going out to the everglades and releasing animals. Some of these snakes are turning up on the edge of towns and through out the South Florida Canal system that directly connects to the Everglades. I lived in Homestead which is on the edge of the Everglades and was there during Hurricane Andrew. I do not believe that the Hurricane had any impact on the populations we are seeing now in the Everglades. There is a MUCH bigger animal trade down in Florida then there is in many of the other states I have been too. Mix that with careless sellers and irresponsible pet owners and that pretty much equals the mess the Everglades is currently in. But to answer your question I have never heard of anyone caught releasing animals in the everglades.

I really can't believe for a second that there were that many Burmese owners that got the same idea and let their Burmese go in the same place in the Everglades.
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

There are so many factors to consider. The people that were releasing snakes very well could be releasing several snakes at a time in the same area. The main reason I believe these snakes were being let go is due to the fact as they were getting to big for the owner meaning most the snakes released were probably adults or sub-adults released in the everglades ready to breed. If a average female lays 15-40 eggs that's a lot of snakes. With all the canal water ways and swamp im pretty sure that a snake could travel at least a couple miles in a single day. I also believe that when the R.O.C permit came into effect a lot of breeders and wholesaler became very concerned with keeping these snakes illegally and didn't want to to go threw the process of requesting the permit, micro chipping all their snakes, and being monitored closely by Fish and Wildlife who do periodic checks. The R.O.C. permit also states that the snakes need to be kept in "proper caging" with locks meaning anyone with these snakes that had improper caging were going to be forced to get all new caging. I heard of a well known breeder/wholesaler in South Florida that was raided shortly after the permits came into effect and was fined over $40,000 for snakes and illegal turtles they had and all those animals were ceased. Before the R.O.C. came into effect almost every pet store had burmese pythons of all sizes available and they would sell to most anyone, any age, no questions asked.. These are some of the factors that have caused the issues in the Everglades.

>the people that were releasing snakes

>these are some of the factors that have caused the issues in the Everglades

Wow, very nice! Hypotheses stated as fact.

It must be nice to state your ideas as facts, actually very tempting, but I cannot do it out of good conscience
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steve

The bottom line is that we do not know how these invasive snakes became established. They may have been released by pet owners who could not deal with the requirements needed to house, feed and handle a large constrictor, they could be the results of an intentional introduction, or they could be the result of escape from either a large research/breeding facility or private owners. Or, some contribution from each method of release.

A large snake that has spent an entire life confined in an inclosure, handled periodically, and has lived a life free from predation should act very differently than one that has grown up in the glades. It has been my experience that captive snakes tend to move more in a straight line instead of using a side to side motion to move forward. Having worked with boas through the pet trade and then collecting them down in Panama from their natural environment was an eye opening experience for me, in my opinion it is very easy to tell the difference between wild and captive.

Also, if the pythons are the result of pet dumping then we should now be seeing snakes with microchips, right??? Have there been any snakes recovered with microchips??

Good insight. A recent wild caught specimen makes more since in terms of survival in a new habitat. Hence, the idea that people kept them until they got big carries less water than recently wild caught specimens.

That is clever, and far more insightful than what the "experts" have been saying.

Thank you
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steve

I know who you're talking about and that raid had NOTHING to do with snakes. It was about baby turtles. If Hurricane Andrew had nothing to do with Burmese here why was it ONLY POST Hurricane Andrew that the population here became self sustaining? I was born in Florida and have hunted herps down here since the early 60's and the first wild Burmese I saw was a roadkill in 2002..Where did they come from if not Andrew and how come myself, Art Bass, Attila Beck,Louis Porras, Geb Bailey, and a plethora of early collectors never saw or caught any?....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I know someone who caught them in the 80's and I believe the first Burmese found in the Glades was in the late 70's.
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

I never ever saw one nor did anybody I knew that hunted a lot. Matt, why then if they've been here that long have they only showed up in numbers in the last 10 years. Their reproductive strategy is one that would increase by geometric progression. It's just plain impossible that there has been any breeding population since the 70-80's and only being discovered about the year 2000....Who do you know that found any in the 70's or 80's? I don't know anyone but Manny. Manny says he saw one in the late 80's I believe he said. Seeing a single snake doesn't mean there's a self sustaining population however. If they had been here everyone would have been aware of them long before now. Their just to big to remain unknown for so long...I hunted here a lot from the 60's until the early 90's when I bought the Croc Farm in central Florida and I NEVER SAW ONE LIVE OR DOR....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't believe there were any substantial numbers in the past and still don't think the inflated numbers are realistic...maybe for political purposes I guess. When talking with a friend of mine last year about this he said he caught them in the 80's. I'll see if it's OK to e-mail you who he is...but you know him well.

I do a lot of wildlife photography Tom and I know what the native animals do to baby snakes...and to larger snakes also. I know that when egrets, herons, hawks, osprey, and eagles know there are baby Burmese around, they will readily prey on them. They (birds) have very heightened hunting skills...especially when it's baby bird season and they are smart enough to hunt certain areas that they know Burmese frequent.

I believe it's taken a very long time to have the number of Burmese that we do now.
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

Which is why the whole "they have no natural predators" statement from the other side is such a dumb and untrue statement.

Matt, I simply do NOT believe a giant snake has been reproducing for 30 years and no one knew it including Park Employees. Come on do you think that's possible? I surely do not. I don't even think Skip Snow or other scientist believe that. If they had even THOUGHT they were here there would have been a scramble to collect $$$ long before now. It's a dream come true for a budding scientist and the line for applications to study them would have stretched to Central Park....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I believe you are correct about this Tom...BUT...no offense to the water management people and other individuals associated with them of course...but they are all not the sharpest tools in the shed. I believe the lie about the employee being chased back to their truck by the giant Burm and the Burm sniffing hunter could partially explain the delay in jumping on the money bandwagon.

They have absolutely known there were snakes out there but probably thought...no biggie. That is until HSUS and other groups stepped up and make a big deal out of it...then the jump was made to the money train.

Would anybody put it past employees to release more Burms and AFRocks in order to get a multi-million dollar grant?
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

First, the issue of invasive animal species has been around for several decades and this would have been jumped on years ago if the burmese issue was thought to have existed earlier. Secondly, if the numbers of offspring needed to maintain a self sustaining population were actually being produced, many more DOR's would be seen than have been currently reported. The facts don't come anywhere near accounting for the highly exaggerated numbers being thrown out by the so-called experts. Furthermore, these same experts can not even come up with the data they supposedly have gathered to support the population estimates they have generated.

Kelly

The problem is that biologists did know but then biologists have to convince the funding agencies that the problem is real. By the time the biologists were able to convince the funding agencies they were established, the problem was already out of control.

We've been running into this same problem with the Afrocks. FWC didn't believe there was a problem until less than a month ago despite the fact that two hatchlings were found last summer. But just because FWC has acknowledged the problem doesn't mean they have really taken action so far. They say they have because they have these permited "hunters" but we all know that a few people chasing snakes is not going to solve the problem. We need a real eradication effort before it's out of control or we're going to be running into the same problem that we have with the burms.

Mike

I bet rock pythons have been established for at least 5 years and nobody was really finding them.

I still don't know why you guys keep arguing that it's the hurricane's fault. It's the fault of the person who owned the snakes and didn't secure them prior to the hurricane (if the hurricane did play a part in their establishment).

Let's be adults here.

Also, some colleagues and I will be publishing a paper listing an ever-growing number of exotics found in the wild in FL... not necessarily breeding, but found. Are these ALL from the hurricane? No way. I have literally watched these things crawl out of walls.

Let's get past this pointless debate about the hurricane vs. release hypothesis and start thinking of ways to fix this problem. I suggest a little peer pressure... especially toward one flamingly obvious source of escaped exotic herps.

Mike

Hey Mark,

You could probably get a lot of support by suggesting that Hurricanes don't cause damage, but rather a lack of preparedness. The billions of dollars spent on hurricane cleanup is a waste because all houses, roads, boats, people, crops, ect... should all be made as Hurricane Proof items in the 1st place. Really, why waste our money helping an unprepared society. While you develop a strategy to stop wildlife from establishing itself in the wild, could you also fix our problems with flood, tornadoes, wild fires, mud slides and the numerous other natural phenomena we find inconvenient. Unless you can fix these problems, I don't want our grants and public funds supporting you to strap on boots and cry about newly appearing wildlife. But, at least that gives you something to do, and probably makes you feel special.

Cheers
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steve

You could probably get a lot of support by suggesting that Hurricanes don't cause damage, but rather a lack of preparedness. The billions of dollars spent on hurricane cleanup is a waste because all houses, roads, boats, people, crops, ect... should all be made as Hurricane Proof items in the 1st place. Really, why waste our money helping an unprepared society. While you develop a strategy to stop wildlife from establishing itself in the wild, could you also fix our problems with flood, tornadoes, wild fires, mud slides and the numerous other natural phenomena we find inconvenient. Unless you can fix these problems, I don't want our grants and public funds supporting you to strap on boots and cry about newly appearing wildlife. But, at least that gives you something to do, and probably makes you feel special.

I think that's the point I was trying to make. Anyone with half a brain and 100 pythons should be able to think ahead and say "hmmm... hurricane pythons = bad idea." And that person should then think of a way to secure them or move them to a secure location. Otherwise, that person should not be keeping pythons.

My suggestions are intended to be helpful, even though my tone may not be chipper. Why not try to police yourselves so the government doesn't have to? Unfortunately (for you guys), most people do not agree that it is ok to have non-native wildlife roaming around. So you can try to prevent that or the government will do it for you. I'm not saying that I support that 100%... just that it is reality. Why not try to prevent future introductions? Seriously? You really have no right to blame the government for stepping in if you are absolutely unwilling to make a change yourself (and I'm speaking to herpetoculturists as a group (not you as an individual) when I say that).

Would it really be so hard to say, "hey, Reptile Store X, would you please fix your walls, put some real doors on your building, and keep your animals in real enclosures instead of open-topped tubs?" If you can't take that small step toward prevention then you can't complain when Big Brother steps in. Personally, I would LOVE to see this problem solved by seeing the collective pet trade policing itself instead of causing problems and practically forcing the government to react.

Mike

Actually, irresponsible pet owners make me sick. And I wish it were OK to personally punish them. The problem is that our gov. interventions are generally not fine tune pieces of legislature. I am sure most reasonable reptile keepers would agree that some regulation would be nice. We just know it is ridiculous to implement a federal law to stop invasion when invasion is a local issue. So S373 is stupid, and I do offer a solution --- if you want to step in, make a proposal that isn't stupid.
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steve

I think we are probably in agreement on what you wrote.

My proposal is that people in the pet trade, particularly the well-respected folks within the trade (I won't name names for the sake of not wanting to make people uncomfortable), pressure their friends to be responsible pet owners/dealers/etc. And I mean really pressure them. I know this has gone on to some extent because I remember reading in Reptiles magazine 15 years ago about how it's important to avoid impulse buys, be responsible, etc. But let's step it up. Especially when EVERYONE knows that certain places are really ruining it for everyone else.

I agree that when the government gets involved it's going to be messy and the "solution" will most likely be inappropriate when it comes to actually solving the problem. Let's keep things under control so the government doesn't notice (and, yes, things CAN get worse so it's too late in some ways but probably not in all ways).

Mike

>I think we are probably in agreement on what you wrote.

>My proposal is that people in the pet trade, particularly the well-respected folks within the trade (I won't name names for the sake of not wanting to make people uncomfortable), pressure their friends to be responsible pet owners/dealers/etc. And I mean really pressure them. I know this has gone on to some extent because I remember reading in Reptiles magazine 15 years ago about how it's important to avoid impulse buys, be responsible, etc. But let's step it up. Especially when EVERYONE knows that certain places are really ruining it for everyone else.

>I agree that when the government gets involved it's going to be messy and the "solution" will most likely be inappropriate when it comes to actually solving the problem. Let's keep things under control so the government doesn't notice (and, yes, things CAN get worse so it's too late in some ways but probably not in all ways).

>Mike

Agreed
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steve

People like you really scare me...and I guess people like me really scare you. I guess that's what they call a conundrum. But let me ask you a question Mike. Suppose that man just disappeared off the face of the earth this month. A virus attacks the human race and we all cease to exist. What becomes of the problem in the everglades? Does the problem still exist? Does it make any difference? Is it really even that important? But you have in your mind that YOU and your type need to control everything. And by your own admission, even though the solution is not the correct solution...it is ok because it is the "Goverment" and apparently that is your holy grail of worship. What really scares me about you and what you represent...an God forbid if you or those you represent should ever come to a conclusion that a group or a race should be declared misplaced or not natural.

Dan

I'm in total agreement with this statement..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I think that's the point I was trying to make. Anyone with half a brain and 100 pythons should be able to think ahead and say "hmmm... hurricane pythons = bad idea." And that person should then think of a way to secure them or move them to a secure location. Otherwise, that person should not be keeping pythons."

That's living in the 'what if' world and it's not practical. People do what they can and that's about it.

Do you use your cell phone while fueling? Do you drink diet soda? Do you smoke? Do you speed?

That doesn't cut it...
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

The one thing I agree with you on is the reptile x person. He is NOT even in Florida anymore and hasn't been for several years now. We all need to be more vigilant and yes I even agree with the peer pressure part of the post. Still doesn't give the right to seek an answer based on a hidden agenda...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

The specific place I had in mind is a facility in Broward county. You never know what you'll find walking around the neighborhood where that facility is located. And I've been inside for business before and seen how the animals are housed (many animals are in open-topped tubs). In fact, when I caught a gecko running around in the building and handed it back to one of the employees they released it again and said, "eh, we just let those run around and then we can grab one when we need it." I was pretty new to FL at the time so I didn't know the place had such a reputation but it is a very well-known place for this reason (and others) and over the years it is becoming increasingly referred to by people in all aspects of this field. It's just a matter of time until there is a negative consequence affecting hobbyists due to the inappropriate housing of animals at this facility. I'm not saying I know of something specific... just that people talk about this place ALL THE TIME. This might be one place where people (= not the government) can make a difference before it's too late.

Mike

Before your time there was a place down here that was MUCH worse. Herp cages were actually kept under shade cloth outside where even a wild animal seeking a meal could knock them over. This kind of thing has GOT TO STOP NOW. We are under a microscope and also it's the RIGHT thing to do anyway. Handfulls of not saleable imports were simply dumped with no regard to the herps or the ecosystem. I hope no one objects to me saying this but it is truthful and is one of the reasons this crap is happening. Add in films that imply pythons will crawl down the overseas hiway to devour Key Deer and you have a blockbuster SCI-FI flic...IT IS SCIENCE FICTION to say the least. I'm admitting to our problems and our part. Again I would like to know if you believe pythons have no predators here, whether they can live all over the S.E. USA, and whether these snakes can crawl their way via US 1 to the Fl. Keys....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"I still don't know why you guys keep arguing that it's the hurricane's fault. It's the fault of the person who owned the snakes and didn't secure them prior to the hurricane (if the hurricane did play a part in their establishment"

You don't secure anything in a class 5 hurricane (Andrew) that was so strong it was peeling the asphalt off the road. Many dealers lost their stock because the entire building was blown into the everglades. As mentioned before, the DNA work has been done, they are all pretty much related to each other. Tom could probably tell you who had about 900 babies for sale in one location at the time.

If these animals were all released as pets, there would be far more albinos, greens, and granites being found.

That still doesn't really justify the problem. Send the snakes somewhere else. And if you can't handle the responsibility then you shouldn't be keeping them.

Mike

And that indicates its a problem with these snakes in Florida, not central park or anywhere else on that absurd USGS map.

I take it those who lost dogs, cats, ferrets, children & loved ones and what have you had no right to *posses* them in a hurricane prone part of the world either ? Seems like you are sating they should have thought ahead, and you know, sent them elsewhere.

Sure, anticipate where a Category 5 hurricane is going to hit. Shuffle your stock around and send it elsewhere when the weather gets bad. Then have it shipped back to you.

Right.

I'm in agreement with this as well...The time is over for making excuses on our side so you guys stop making them as well....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Well, first, my respect for you has grown tremendously with that statement.

Second, I've never been in favor of any legislation or a part of some agenda. I think there's a problem and we need to fix it and I'd much rather see it solved in a grassroots effort than with the government. Imagine how great it would be if we could organize and come up with solutions BEFORE legislation is proposed. The "Reptile Nation" has really come together to fight the legislation but imagine how much better it would be if the same effort could be made to PREVENT it from ever being proposed in the first place (= find a way to reduce escapes). My point before was that government intervention is reality when a problem arises and people notice... not something I'm in favor of. I keep herps too so it's not like I don't have some stake in this.

I've always said that if funding runs out for my position I'll just move to Mexico and herp. I refuse to sell my soul just to keep my job. I can be happy working at McDonald's as long as there are cool herps to find nearby.

Mike

My respect for you has grown with that response.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

my respect for both of you has grown

We all need to take on responsibility for ourselves, our animals and others in this hobbie through training, educating and mentoring. I am not a python person...but I have two that I have had for many years that other people were going to dispose of illegaly so I took them to keep that from happening. I would never condone anyone releasing captive animals, native or non-native back into the wilds. I don't think anyone is trying to "justify" the problem in the ENP. It is my opinion that the film on NG was not scientifically fair and balanced. For instance, the cage that was built around the nesting Burmese python to protect her nests and to see how many hatched. Why was that cage built? To contain the babies when they hatched and to keep "predators" from destroying it, but yet the film indicated, as many have commented on in this thread, that the snakes have no "natural" predators...all for the purpose of "misleading" the public in thinking that they have no predators by adding the word natural. As another person has said, "it is not even known yet if the Buremse pythons are a threat to the ENP ecosystem." I am for letting the scientific facts fall where they may...but I would prefer that the scientist be above politcal expediency. I, along with many others, wiser then me, have said as much.

Dan

>>I bet rock pythons have been established for at least 5 years and nobody was really finding them.
>>
>>I still don't know why you guys keep arguing that it's the hurricane's fault. It's the fault of the person who owned the snakes and didn't secure them prior to the hurricane (if the hurricane did play a part in their establishment).
>>
>>Let's be adults here.
>>
>>Also, some colleagues and I will be publishing a paper listing an ever-growing number of exotics found in the wild in FL... not necessarily breeding, but found. Are these ALL from the hurricane? No way. I have literally watched these things crawl out of walls.
>>
>>Let's get past this pointless debate about the hurricane vs. release hypothesis and start thinking of ways to fix this problem. I suggest a little peer pressure... especially toward one flamingly obvious source of escaped exotic herps.
>>
>>Mike

"Let's be adults here"?? Are you kidding? What you are saying is the type of argument my 10 year old would make. Your entire argument rests upon the assumption that there is in fact a huge problem with the burms being in the Everglades. You haven't even come close to proving that. And singling out the pet trade is laughable. Cane toads, Asian Carp, kudzu (and I'm sure there are many other examples) were not introduced by the pet trade, but by PhD scientists. You can talk all you want, but how about offering some evidence that you and your colleagues have any type of track record dealing with what you deem invasive/harmful species? How's the Brown Tree snake eradication going? I wonder if the rats on Rat Island are all dead after the biologists poisoned them (along with over 3 dozen endangered bald eagles.)

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/06/15/

Down in Puerto Rico, supposedly a big source of the feral Boa constrictor population was a serpentarium that was vandalized. Should we blame serpentariums/zoo's since this one wasn't prepared well enough for a break-in?

Today most non-native invasive animals and plants come from the pet and nursery trades. There are very few exceptions.

You may choose not to believe that or to ignore that, but you do so at your own peril and risk of your pastime and all of the economic and social benefits that comes with it.

The fastest way to make the federal government go away is to say we have a problem, we will fix it ourselves. Spend your tax dollars on something else.

You have the wrong target. Pythons researchers in the Everglades are not against you, HSUS is. By refusing to acknowledge the problem your are playing right into their hands.

You have met the enemy, it is yourself.

Herps rule!

>>Today most non-native invasive animals and plants come from >>the pet and nursery trades. There are very few exceptions.

"Non-native" is not equivalent to "harmful." With regard to
Burmese pythons, there is no evidence they are "devastating" the
ecosystem. If there is, please provide it.

>>
>>You may choose not to believe that or to ignore that, but you >>do so at your own peril and risk of your pastime and all of >>the economic and social benefits that comes with it.

I'm simply pointing out that it makes no sense that millions and millions of dollars of tax money goes to a scientific endeavor (ie, getting rid of invasive species, especially vertebrates) that has a track record of failure. If I had such a poor track record, I'd get fired from my job, I wouldn't get *more* money. In the real world, results matter, not just intentions.

>>The fastest way to make the federal government go away is to >>say we have a problem, we will fix it ourselves. Spend your >>tax dollars on something else.

I totally disagree. The forces behind the pending legislation don't want responsible ownership, they want NO OWNERSHIP. Your attitude will actually help them achieve their goal. No one here is advocating irresponsible ownership, but empty rhetoric of
"fix it ourselves" is meaningless. How exactly would we "fix it ourselves?" Am I supposed to police my neighbor down the street who owns some herps? It's ALREADY ILLEGAL to release non-native animals, and there are animal cruelty laws. Why would some idiot who would break the law today magically follow the rules set by some trade organization if they don't follow the law?

>>
>>You have the wrong target. Pythons researchers in the >>Everglades are not against you, HSUS is. By refusing to >>acknowledge the problem your are playing right into their >>hands.

Absolute BS.

1) The USGS python range map is garbage. The model is flawed, it was released BEFORE any type of real-life data was collected, and it flies in the face of 30 years of herpetoculture. And why is the DOI trying to rush the Lacey Act process BEFORE the SREL study results are done and BEFORE the effects of the cold snap are clear?

2) As I said before, ASSUMING the pythons are wreaking havoc on the ecosystem is not science, it's speculation. If you think for a minute that the "researchers" played no part in generating the hysteria that's going on now, you are sadly mistaken.

You, my friend, are playing into the hands of the HSUS and PETA.
Dogs and cats run loose all the time and all over the country, and they are PROVEN to be dangerous to humans and wildlife, yet somehow some pythons in the Everglades are a gigantic problem for which we need to become hysterical over and scare the public.

>>
>>You have met the enemy, it is yourself.

Right back at you.

The reason none of you guys ever saw or caught any???...because you all were way over rated as snake collectors!!! LOL :>

Now, had you had a pencil neck, panty waisted Washington Post reporter with you, fresh out of journalism school, I'm sure, with his keen eyes and superior intellect your alls success would have been on the cutting edge of biological informational science!!

Dan

PS (or should I say BS)

Can I say anymore???

Shoot we tried to recruit one to improve our success but we couldn't find any of them either back then...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You may still have a chance to uncover the infamous python-king cobra hybrid, or the cryptic 150 ft. anaonda.

Maybe you could use some of those cuttingedge reporter and a herd of feeder cows to lure some in. And top it of by showing that they can survive for months on end at an antarctic freezer house.

U guys r great, LOL
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steve

Well if my old buddy Joe W. can look for snakes in Central Park and the subways in New York I'm not settling for anything less than a T-REX down here. We have still another arctic blast coming so more poor herps will freeze no doubt....Joe should go back and check the subways some more. They should be down there near the white alligators and rats big as cats we hear about that reside there as well. As for me I'm hunting T-REX and Apatosaurs here. Why restrict myself to mundane Pythons?..LOL..Check my next list for unusual offerings....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

That's a joke right? Hunting pythons in the sewers of NY?
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles

>>>>The reason none of you guys ever saw or caught any???...because you all were way over rated as snake collectors!!! LOL :>

Now, had you had a pencil neck, panty waisted Washington Post reporter with you, fresh out of journalism school, I'm sure, with his keen eyes and superior intellect your alls success would have been on the cutting edge of biological informational science!!

Dan

PS (or should I say BS)

Can I say anymore???
-----------------------------------------------------------

Now that is a fine example of sarcasm conveyed in the written word

Expressing sarcasm in a post on a forum ,

A very hard feat to accomplish

Seriously I like it , Good job !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Excellent point! I have never heard of someone convicted of releasing a large snake into the everglades. Therefore, any claims should absolutely be stated as a hypothesis!

They are playing the impact factor with a realization that unkwonledgable persons often take what they read as fact. I see it sooooo much, and it is soooo annoying that people state "facts" without developing the logic to explain it as fact.
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steve

If Tom Crutchfield says it, I believe him. He has more experience with reptiles in Fl than 99.9% of the people in Florida, and he deals in facts.

Also, an intentional release in order to establish a sustainable population is very different than a pet owner who releases one because he is overwhelmed. "Bucket biology" has been as issue in other parts of the country with other animals and it is very difficult to defend against. They know they are breaking the law so additional laws will not stop them.

Providing education, alternatives and resources to pet owners is not that difficult. Many states already have associations that conduct out reach and rescues, all done without government intervention.

Passing additional laws will do little to those who do not follow them in the first place, those of use who are responsible owners and breeders will comply, but we were never the problem in the first place. The powers to be that are pushing the ban know that as well, so do not believe for a minute that the national python ban has anything to do with little Johnny buying a baby python.

It is very well known that one highly published professor of herpetology in KS intentionally established a species of European Wall Lizard in several locales there. Here in Florida two former professors [one very famous one] are very well known for at least 4 species of exotic Anoles being established here. This is NOT uncommon and you are correct...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I find the reports of a narrow DNA profile for the Everglades pythons very interesting. Likewise the report of no morph Burmese in the Everglades.

Unfortunately it's not that hard to believe that many burms escape or are released in South Florida. But if it's true that the reproducing population isn't broadening its genetic background than it might be that they are descendent from a line of Burmese pythons particularly suited to surviving at the edge of the tropics. Maybe 99% of the Burmese pythons in captivity wouldn’t be able to survive even one winter in the Everglades.

Did the line in the Glades come from the perfect storm of the right genetics and a big mass release (hurricane or otherwise)? Maybe they are the Argentine boas of the Indian Python complex? Will also be interesting to hear (eventually) how many of the tracked Everglades line survived this winter. There have been reliable reports of some surviving Burmese pythons but if a large percentage of the trackers didn’t make it there is still some hope of a hard winter wiping them out completely. It would at least be a good indication that they will not be able to make it even to the middle of Florida much less cover 1/3 of the US.

They will only populate 1/3 of the country if you are trying to be re-elected or are begging for grant money...or if FOX News agrees to interview you
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Matt Lerer
Ghi Reptiles