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"Python Wars"

EricWI Feb 09, 2010 10:38 PM

Did anyone else catch that program on NatGeo tonight?

They never even once mentioned Hurricane Andrew. They placed all of the blame on keepers and pet owners for the python's introduction even despite the complete lack of evidence for this. They showed Rodda's USGS map, saying pythons could spread from San Francisco to Washington D.C. They even said that the pythons can survive freezing temperatures. Obviously, Florida's recent freeze was "conveniently" left out. I Wonder why. They also bought up the Burm/Afrock hybridizing but again conveniently left out the fact that the offspring would likely be sterile.

There was really only a 5 second blurb about us being "upset about the legislation". That was it. There were NO other facts for our side.The show was pretty much what I expected it to be: complete Burm crap.

Replies (97)

ender Feb 09, 2010 10:52 PM

But be sure to remember burms cannot survive on salt water.

I'm a retic guy, but we're all taking together on this one.

Good luck to all,
josh

Ravenspirit Feb 10, 2010 03:35 AM

It was vile. It was more of the scare mongering garbage like we saw from the history channel.

They brought up the usgs map, and implied how the giant snakes in our homes are a disaster waiting to happen, and if we tire of them we could dump them and cause an "outbreak" of feral snakes anywhere in that range.

Feral cats were never mentioned, the key largo wood rat was though. Pythons are apparently going to eat everything up down in the everglades, according to the program. The everglades are a "vast wilderness" too, according to this...hmmm...

The only python keeping info they really provided was of "killer snakes", and how these snakes in our private hands could be "out to get-cha'" if we are not careful.

I also liked how the burms in SC were doing well into December, and they worked every end of scare tactic on that...and that was where they ended. I'd like to know how they are doing now ?...for some reason I don't think hanging out 40' up in a tree will prevent icicles from forming on their dead bodies.

Its a shame. I expected more from National Geographic. We should let them know JUST how lousy their program was, and how unscientific it was too. I know I am going to.

Mike_Rochford Feb 10, 2010 04:20 PM

Still haven't seen the show but most of it was filmed in summer 2009 so I'm actually surprised they had an update on the SREL pythons all the way into December. It's not like they edit these things the day before they go on tv.

Mike

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 07:54 AM

It didn't look like Dec in SC to me regarding the vegetation etc. Perhaps the timeline was "fudged " a bit...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Lia Feb 11, 2010 01:33 PM

I agree I do love NGC but it was very bias and not what they are known for which is good animal shows.

Considering 2 full weeks of cold here killed the chipped pythons I find it unreal that pythons in SC lived the winter ofcourse the "researchers" have placed them in outside pens with heated borrows ,etc .

Never mind SC bring them here (Miami) for 2 weeks like we recently had and that will kill them like it did here to the chipped bunch.

Mcdowelli76 Feb 11, 2010 05:26 PM

If they are not afriad of getting ousted for being jackasses I'd invite them to bring some to sunny San Diego. Every year it's below 40 degrees almost every night of dec-feb. But it's sunny San Diego. You think if they were going to try and prove pythons can invade the US they would aim for a place they might have a chance.

SgtStinky Feb 10, 2010 05:23 AM

file next to Killer Bees

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 10, 2010 06:24 AM

The film had the same validity as my old favorite "ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATO'S". Watch it and you'll never view a tomato the same way again. When I see one I can't even eat it because of hysterical laughing on my part...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Jaykis Feb 10, 2010 09:04 AM

There's a guy from NG that blogs on their website. I forget his name, but he's been pretty unbiased so far. Looks like one side of NG doesn't know what the other side is doing.

natsamjosh Feb 10, 2010 11:06 AM

>>The film had the same validity as my old favorite "ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATO'S". Watch it and you'll never view a tomato the same way again. When I see one I can't even eat it because of hysterical laughing on my part...LOL
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hmmm, maybe we should try to get some USGS/USFWS funding to do a study on the interaction between giant super-hybrid pythons and killer tomatos in the continental United States in 125 years after global warming (which will follow the imminent mini-ice age.) I'm thinking the killer pythons will win. It will be a tough battle, but I think in the end the killer pythons will eat the killer tomatos.

DanielsDen Feb 10, 2010 12:52 PM

Or at least "crush" them into tomatoe juice!!!

DanielsDen Feb 10, 2010 11:52 AM

I saw it and laughed my butt off. The two guys (joy riding)flying around in there antenna equipped plane, the three loaded kayaks (vacationing) cruising the mangroves, the college students (seeking free education)dumping snakes in fresh water and salt water (as if they are doing some scientific discovery)and the pythons expanding northward, where no one knows who's door they will show up at, (which is why I didn't answer the doorbell last night) even though it was 26 degrees outside! And then all of this at tax payers expense!! Tom, it reminded you of the "Killer Tomatoes"...I was stuck with either "The Blob" or "Willard", the killer rats!!!

Does anyone remember "Operation Rock Cut" that was in Times Magazine a few years ago...where every fact was deleted and a bunch of BS was spread throught this "News" Magazine?

Folks, unfortunaley, the big picture is ALL OF THE NEWS we are getting today is as biased as that documentary. You only see it there because you are aware of the real facts. That is why this bill to ban the pythons is going to pass...it has NOTHING to do with facts, but about future revenues for the goverment. Like I told the person who was scolding me for keeping snakes, how she hated that and finally they were going to put a stop to it. I just smiled and said "yes..they are..but you know what...its going to cost YOU because you will have to pay for it in your taxes." The smile on her face disappeared as she thought about that one!!!

Dan

Mike_Rochford Feb 10, 2010 04:18 PM

Yeah... who are those idiots anyway.

Mike

Mike_Rochford Feb 10, 2010 04:16 PM

Hmmmm... haven't seen the show yet but they mention Hurricane Andrew in the online preview so I'm surprised it didn't make it into the show.

Mike

Mike_Rochford Feb 10, 2010 04:17 PM

Not that it matters... the responsibility still belongs to the pet trade even if it was the hurricane.

Mike

Jaykis Feb 10, 2010 05:23 PM

If this is a show with american croc babies at the end of the show, and the pythons having transmitters in them for tracking, and an airplane, this must be a re-edited version of a Nat Geo show shown last summer, witha minor amount dedicated to Burms. And not edited on a good way, although it was in HD and was stunning. It was based on the ENG and had a pair of kayakers, one of which was a woman photog with world-wide credentials for photography.
Not sure why this was changed to it's present form, ezcept for ratings.

spmoberl Feb 10, 2010 05:25 PM

Hi again Mark (or something like that)

Again, lets blame all hurricane induced damage on the fact that not everything is hurricane proof. And I'm pretty sure that a sustain wild population of burms had been definitively linked back to a pet owner/trader. You should be happy, because you are getting paid---which in itself is amazing. I would imagine you weren't exactly top of the class.
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steve

spmoberl Feb 10, 2010 05:46 PM

>a sustain wild population of burms had been definitively linked back to a pet owner/trader

a sustain wild population of burms had NOT been definitively linked back to a pet owner/trader

my bad (typo)
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steve

Mike_Rochford Feb 11, 2010 09:39 AM

Even with your edit your grammar still sucks so I'm not going to respond to your comments about my intellectual acuity. I don't claim to be the brightest bulb in the box but at least I've got you beat.

Mike

natsamjosh Feb 10, 2010 06:02 PM

>>Not that it matters... the responsibility still belongs to the pet trade even if it was the hurricane.
>>
>>Mike

Sure it matters. The stereotyping and propaganda being put forth that python owners are idiots who release pythons into the Everglades needs to be rebutted.

Pointing your finger at the pet trade is ridiculous. Cane toads, kudzu and Asian carp were not introduced into the wild by the pet trade, but by PhD scientists. Wild Boa constrictors down in Puerto Rico allegedly escaped from a serpentarium. No pet trade involved there.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 07:19 AM

Mike you are correct BUT THE RELEASES ARE ALWAYS TOUTED AS INTENTIONAL AND THIS FILM SHOWED A FAMILY IN A CAR RELEASING A BIG BURM ON PURPOSE. The mater of INTENT is a BIG one in any court of law both civil and criminal. You know that and once more you just sidestep the facts and issues which I suppose your job demands you do. You won't answer this truthfully I don't believe BUT do you think after this freeze these snakes could live anywhere else? How many of your snakes died here? I already have a LOT more info than you think I do. Answer these questions withour bias if you will or are allowed to?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

DanielsDen Feb 11, 2010 07:58 AM

I am so fed up with this whole issue. The bottom line is we have pythons in the everglades. So what...we have armidillos all over Florida too. The animals and the people are just going to have to accept it, because "nature" has already put it's approval on it. This idea that I have to defend myself for the actions of others is BS. It is what it is. Thousands of introduced species every where and guess what, life goes on. We have a problem only because some neurotics says we have one, as they do not have the ability or capability of dealing with "change." This War of the World mentality that so many scientist want to depict only hurts there own cause. Pythons invading the world, destroying cites...blah blah blah. The legislation they have proposed does NOTHING in changing what is. Why don't these people deal with real issues, such as finding cures for cnacer and other deadly diseases, but instead, they have to make mountains out of mole hillls to justify there pitiful existance, and the real danger of their pitiful existance is much more sinister then just controling pythons in the everglades. Then you have those legends of followers to this way of thinking...I'm just doing my job!!!

natsamjosh Feb 11, 2010 10:05 PM

Very well put. If these pythons, for which there is no evidence of them being "injurious" and which are isolated to south Florida, are such a gigantic problem, then why aren't we having a national emergency requiring every citizen to hunt down stray cats, stray dogs, and even pet dogs. Stray dogs and cats are undoubtedly "injurious" to local wildlife, and pet dogs kill more people EVERY YEAR or TWO than the total number of people killed by large constrictors in the last 30 years. And of course millions of humans are living all over the world in squalor and don't have clean drinking water. But hey, let's hunt down those killer pythons so we can save the world and secure funding for the next 20 years to fail at eradicating them! BTW, who exactly annointed these researchers the God-like authority to decide what species should be where? Living organisms have been expanding their ranges for billions of years, it's part of evolution. And as it's been discussed, the pythons might actually be restoring some balance to the ecosystem. Who knows at this point? There certainly is just as much (or little) evidence supporting that as there is that they are "devastating the fragile ecosystem." Maybe they are taking the place of large predators (like the Florida panther) that the most injurious species of all, Home sapiens, has killed off.

Okay, sorry for the rant, it will be my last. I'm going to move on to more productive activities like focusing on educational presentations.

SgtStinky Feb 12, 2010 04:25 PM

But what will happen to the wood rat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_Largo_Woodrat

DanielsDen Feb 12, 2010 05:52 PM

I don't know...probably the samething that happened to tyrannosausres rex! I really haven't missed him that much.

natsamjosh Feb 12, 2010 09:51 PM

>>But what will happen to the wood rat?
>>
>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_Largo_Woodrat

What will happen to the wood rat? Ask the feral cats that are eating them.

Mike_Rochford Feb 11, 2010 09:35 AM

Mike you are correct BUT THE RELEASES ARE ALWAYS TOUTED AS INTENTIONAL AND THIS FILM SHOWED A FAMILY IN A CAR RELEASING A BIG BURM ON PURPOSE. The mater of INTENT is a BIG one in any court of law both civil and criminal. You know that and once more you just sidestep the facts and issues which I suppose your job demands you do. You won't answer this truthfully I don't believe BUT do you think after this freeze these snakes could live anywhere else? How many of your snakes died here? I already have a LOT more info than you think I do. Answer these questions withour bias if you will or are allowed to?

Unfortunately, we have no idea what the final product of a show is going to look like when we film for them. The online preview I saw for it showed the hurricane as a possibility but I haven't seen the actual show and it sounds like it didn't make it into it. I don't have to sidestep any facts for my job. I can fully agree that it MIGHT have been 100% accidental escapes from the hurricane. Ask Nigel Marven who I know we both worked with on the Nature film that airs in a couple weeks... we were riding in the car and he asked me whether I thought it was hurricanes or releases and I said "I don't know, I don't really take a side in that argument because there's no way to ever know." And I still stand by that. But, as we've discussed recently, it's really somewhat irrelevant.

I know the rumors have been spreading about dead pythons. There certainly was a good deal of mortality but I'm not allowed to be specific until it's published in a peer-reviewed journal and we have been slaving over the manuscript to get it in ASAP. My part is done for now but there are 7 or 8 authors so it's getting bounced around quite a bit for review/edits/comments amongst our own group of authors first. But I can promise that there will be details on nearly every python found after the cold front until about a week ago (we had to cut off at some point in order to get this thing finished). This will include the fate of each of our telemetered animals and also any other animals reported to us during that time span.

I've never personally taken a side on the battle of the range maps either and I still don't. All I've really said is that they will probably spread farther than the Pyron map but not as far as the Rodda map. And I think that could still happen.

Mike

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 09:40 AM

Thanks and now answer my question about whose telling them they have no native predators. Do they have any? Why and who is telling the press they have NO predators...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

natsamjosh Feb 11, 2010 11:37 AM

>>Thanks and now answer my question about whose telling them they have no native predators. Do they have any? Why and who is telling the press they have NO predators...
>>-----
>>Tom Crutchfield
>>www.tomcrutchfield.com

The head of the DOI, for one:

http://www.doi.gov/news/pressreleases/2010_01_20_release.cfm

“The Interior Department and states such as Florida are taking swift and common sense action to control and eliminate the populations of these snakes, but it is an uphill battle in ecosystems where they have no natural predators. If we are going to succeed, we must shut down the importation of the snakes and end the interstate commerce and transportation of them.”

Jaykis Feb 11, 2010 08:20 PM

Tom, you know my daughter. She lives next to Greynolds Park. Since the freeze, she has not seen ONE iguana, and only one anole along the river. She did see a dead iguana floating in the river.

Mike_Rochford Feb 12, 2010 10:53 AM

I think I've responded to this elsewhere in the thread but I'll say it again just in case and after having read one of the responses to your post. I was in the lab with Skip yesterday and asked him what he thought about the "no natural predators" thing making it into the press all the time. He said he thinks the press takes a statement similar to this...

"young pythons certainly have many predators but adults would have very few, like gators and crocs"

...and turns it into what we hear on the shows and in the newspaper.

But who knows, I'm not around when all of these people are interviewed. Kenney Krysko did his interview in Gainesville, I don't know where Bob Reed was when he did his, and I don't even know who else was in the show.

And the head of the DOI is probably just as bad as the media. He's not a python expert... he's a talking head.

I do feel bad that this kind of thing is happening (and that it is happening all the time, apparently). It makes us look bad.

Mike

SgtStinky Feb 12, 2010 10:06 PM

Well yes Mike it does make you guys look bad. Mazzotti has been telling the media that pythons can live anywhere in Florida, even as far North as Georgia, and that they are spreading quickly. He is also quick to point out that they have killed people and that pet owners are dumping their snakes.

A quick literature search reveals two common themes associated with Mazzotti and his contact with the media, pet owners dumping snakes and the threat that large burmese pythons pose to human life and safety:

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=456&sid=636160

http://news.ufl.edu/2008/09/23/uf-researchers-track-big-snakes-in-everglades-park/

http://www.northfloridanewsdaily.com/news/2008-06-02/top_news/160.html

And, Mazzotti is also the source for this:

"The snakes have no natural predators and have been threatening the Everglades, the general ecosystem and even people since they were introduced to Florida through the illegal exotic animal trade, Mazzotti said."

http://www.wellsphere.com/add-adhd-article/pythons-and-citrus-and-iguanas-oh-my-frigid-florida-copes/942508

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 12, 2010 10:23 PM

One of the reasons GA jumped and tried to pass state laws prohibiting these snakes was the fear that they may slither their way up 1-75 and take a left and wind up in Atlanta. Why can't we, say Andrew Wyatt of USARK and one or some of you have a press confrence and state the truth and have a question and answer session afterwords? This would go a long way to reduce the public fear, mend our broken fences, and work together to accomplish the same goals TOGETHER. We also could organize a fast response team to identify ANY OTHER reports of non native herps and see if their credible. If so work to eliminate them early on which you guys do NOT have the manpower to do. Also believe it or not many of us are experts in field studies as good or better than your team. We shouldn't be adversaries and I can assure you we didn't start the war but we damn sure aren't backing down either....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

natsamjosh Feb 12, 2010 10:58 PM

It's not just U of F.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/24/national/main5111240.shtml

This is the game these guys play. They say stuff but then blame the media for misquoting them. But they never seem to try to correct the misquoting. I know if I were misquoted that badly I'd be contacting my lawyer, or at least demanding a retraction.

A snippet from the above article:

---------------
Gibbons said a human is "just another prey item" to a python - especially a small human. Pythons are constrictor snakes and have been known to eat people in their native areas of Southeast Asia, he added.

"A 20-foot python, if it grabbed one of us, would bite us and then within just - instantly - seconds, it would be wrapped all the way around you and squeezing the life out of you," Gibbons said.
-----------------

DanielsDen Feb 13, 2010 08:45 AM

I think this is why so many people are angry over the matter. It has scientist, and I have to assume for personal gain, putting so much "spin" on this issue. They seem fine when "spin" is leaked out, but "we can't reveal any facts until our studies are complete" they say. That is what I meant, if they let their credability (the scientist)be destroyed before they release any of the facts, then the results will be suspect as well. Like you said Tom, the herp comminuty would be the first to help out, work with them and provide all the information we could, and then let the "facts" fall where they may, but, in this situation, it appears that the researchers have pledged their loyalty to the 'politicians' rather then science. I'm sure, many of the true researchers involved in this project are as upset over the way this has turned out as we are.

natsamjosh Feb 13, 2010 09:17 AM

I agree completely, but imo it's even worse. These guys aren't only "leaking information." They are creating hysteria based on misleading statements, which is the exact opposite of what science is all about. In fact, it's very possible that these python SCIENTISTS, RESEARCHERS and "conservationists" are actually injurious to the ecosystem. Just think how many people, after reading articles where a PhD Professor Emeritus implies that pythons are going to eat people and take over 1/3 of the country, are going to chop up the next snake the see in their yard? How many people's fears and phobias are being reinforced after seeing the "Python Wars" and "Monster Quest" shows? And that latter part of the comment (ie, taking over 1/3 of the country) is based on a bogus study that was released BEFORE any real life data/experimentation was even attempted? This is not science, folks. This is anti-science. And yes, this pisses me off to no end, since I do educational presentations with my snakes at schools and museums to try to help people GET OVER THEIR IRRATIONAL FEARS and PHOBIAS. (And, btw, I don't own any of the "big 9".)

And groups like HSUS and PETA, however disgusting those organizations are, would be all but impotent if our taxpayer funded researchers and scientists were actually practicing real science instead of this agenda driven non-science and fear mongering.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 09:46 AM

You can add I found 2 live ones post freeze. One was doa on the road north of Flamingo about 8-9' long and I caught a live 7' one near the Homestead Airforce base. I also found a 15-16' long dead one near Chekika but not in the Park. I have photgraphic records of all and gave the live one to Joe W. who might have given it to you guys...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 07:35 AM

One more question is WHY do the films always say they have no predators? I've watched a Barred Owl take one plus alligators, Great Blue Herons, Pig Frogs, lg fish, other snakes, and a plethora of native wildlife eat them. Why do you guys LIE and ALWAYS deny the fact that they have any predators. Are you a scientist and if so why do you not speak the truth? I would like an answer to this if you have the cojones to do so...The European version of a python film by Nigel I assisted with showed many natural predators. I'M ASKING YOU DO ANY NATIVE WILDLIFE SPECIES PREY ON PYTHONS OF ANY SIZE CLASS? Please answer this question as you are a researcher supposedly interested in finding the truth about the bivittatus bomb...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Lia Feb 11, 2010 01:42 PM

Posted by: TOM_CRUTCHFIELD at Thu Feb 11 07:35:07 2010 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ] [ Show All Posts by TOM_CRUTCHFIELD ]

One more question is WHY do the films always say they have no predators? I've watched a Barred Owl take one plus alligators, Great Blue Herons, Pig Frogs, lg fish, other snakes, and a plethora of native wildlife eat them. Why do you guys LIE and ALWAYS deny the fact that they have any predators. Are you a scientist and if so why do you not speak the truth? I would like an answer to this if you have the cojones to do so...The European version of a python film by Nigel I assisted with showed many natural predators. I'M ASKING YOU DO ANY NATIVE WILDLIFE SPECIES PREY ON PYTHONS OF ANY SIZE CLASS? Please answer this question as you are a researcher supposedly interested in finding the truth about the bivittatus bomb...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com
---------------
My Dad my BF and I have searcherd high and low for one for 2 yrs and never saw one .

Must be neat to have seen them. now after this massive kill off I doubt I will .

You know what the enviromentalists here say
"The python isn't a threat to eliminating the Florida panther but the roads,construction they build around and through the panthers land will "

That pretty much sums up Florida . The politicians scream "non native snakes,etc are killing Florida " while the bulldozers and cement trucks devour the natural wildlands and panthers get hit by cars .

Jaykis Feb 11, 2010 08:24 PM

I had the FWC change the front page of their website dealing with Burms from "no natural predators" (which they agreed was wrong) to no predators as adults except for gators and crocs.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 07:51 AM

As far as the "research" on seeing if they could drink salt water and survive it's laughable that would even would be needed to do. A guy named Tamer Ellis did that experiment with C. acutus back in the 70's and even baby native crocs die in pure salt water. Mazzotti is well aware of that as I suspect you are. This entire study "reeks" of studies done to support a hidden agenda rather than real science. Did Skip lose his giant python skin? No one in this movie wrapped up in it as the usual news story portrays. Shoot Mike I haven't seen you wrap up in it yet. You're missing some great publicity...Perhaps the pythons traveling down US 1 are taking a taxi as the traffic is to great to crawl. That part has to be the DUMBEST THING I've ever heard. An ectotherm crawling down the overseas hiway to colonize the lower Keys is tantamount to a Saturday Night Live spoof and was portrayed as real. AMAZING...ANOTHER QUESTION FOR YOUR KEEN SCIENTIFIC MIND: DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT PYTHONS OR ANY ANIMAL COULD CRAWL OR WALK DOWN US 1 TO THE KEYS?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

cychluraguy Feb 11, 2010 08:48 AM

If we are going to declaire war on invasive species based on how many native species they eat or kill we need to start with cats ban anyone from keeping them and kill all feral ones or how about a ROC of $100 to own one and a micro chip with a large fine if lost. Next would be the millions of cattle egrets that are all over the south and have a much larger range than any other invasive species. I guess we need to kill all of them on site.
It realy seems people only act on emotion and not facts. If it is friendly or if it's pretty then it is ok but if it is scaly it is bad. If pandas were loose in the evergaldes and ate florida panthers I think most people would oppose there removal. LOL
Rob

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 09:17 AM

There are NO MORE Fl Panthers [pure ones that is] because USFWS released 8 Texas Cougars in the Big Cypress in 1999 to enhance the genetic diversification of the endemic Puma c. coreyi. Therefore the Florida Panther in it's pure form NO longer exist in the wild or captivity for that matter. This was NOT a private collector's mistaken release but deliberate.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Mike_Rochford Feb 11, 2010 09:21 AM

LOL... of course not. Still haven't seen it but they must have misinterpreted what was probably told to them... that there are a lot of mangroves along US-1 that pythons probably can follow but obviously a certain part of it involved swimming and not crawling across a bridge or literally down the road.

It's funny, we turn down TV request after TV request and try to do only the quality shows like NatGeo, "Nature" on PBS, etc and avoid participating in all of the crap like Monster Quest, etc and it still makes us look bad. It may reach a point where we just refuse to do TV stuff... I know my boss isn't a fan of it.

Mike

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 09:32 AM

It was the worst film from a truthful standpoint I've ever seen and was right there with hunting Pythons in Central Park. Between MonsterQuest and NatGeo lies a George Lucas film although Stephen Speilberg might be working on one as well.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 09:37 AM

Which one of you is telling everyone they HAVE NO NATURAL PREDATORS? That's one of my 3 questions also...BARRED OWLS, ALLIGATORS, SNAKES, PIG FROGS, LG PREDATORY FISH, RACOONS, POSSUMS, GREAT BLUE HERONS, WILD FERAL PIGS, FERAL CATS, BOBCATS, AND A PLETHORA OF NATIVE WILDLIFE DO NOT KNOW THAT THEY CAN'T DEVOUR BURMESE PYTHONS.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Mike_Rochford Feb 11, 2010 09:47 AM

I fully recognize that there are MANY animals that can/do prey upon pythons and I don't really know why that keeps getting said or who is saying it.

The only thing I would say along those lines would be that there aren't any predators that have been able to keep the pythons from being a common snake in ENP.

But those are two very different statements.

Mike

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 11, 2010 09:55 AM

That however is NOT whats being said. Are these snakes injurious at all. A predator's population is controlled completely by the prey base that exist. I can't see how they've been here long enough to declare them injurious. Are they injurious by the fact that their here or is there some specific animal or animals that are declining because of the snakes? Why was it implied that P. sebae might produce a SUPER SNAKE when crossed with a Burmese? It's been tried in captivity with little success and ALL progeny to date are sterile. Why are fearmongering statements like that handed to the press as a matter of course?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

cychluraguy Feb 11, 2010 10:10 AM

Tom,
I think many people who say there are no preditors are using the tecnicality and saying "They have no "natural" preditors" and it is true there are no proditors from there normal environment but they are trying to lead the general public into believing there are no preditors at all while still being able to defend there statements as being true.
Rob

Lia Feb 12, 2010 09:27 AM

Miami politicians might be their biggest predator with the Glades rock mining they want to do and "under the table" selling off of wet lands.

Mike_Rochford Feb 12, 2010 01:26 PM

I googled "injurious wildlife" to get the definition and this was the first hit I got. It's from the US Fish & Wildlife Service so I think that's relevant to what we are talking about here.

"What Are Injurious Wildlife?
Injurious wildlife are mammals, birds, amphibians,
reptiles, fish, crustaceans, mollusks and their offspring
or gametes that are injurious to the interests of human
beings, agriculture, horticulture, forestry, wildlife or wildlife
resources of the United States. "

I think the definition is pretty broad so I think it's pretty easy to say that burms are injurious to wildlife considering they eat native wildlife.

That said, I still don't think the federal legislation is necessary.

Mike

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 12, 2010 06:10 PM

That definition doesn't say it has to be exotic so that means we need to ban alligators, panthers [which now thanks to USFWS are exotic], and bears as well. Hell let's just ban everything because that definition lends itself to selective and arbitrary enforcement such as is being done now...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

SgtStinky Feb 12, 2010 06:35 PM

what is the established precedence? How is the definition applied? I assume the dreaded snakehead fish and feral hogs are listed as such? What about green iguanas, feral monitors, and other exotic reptiles? If one of these things is not like the other...

natsamjosh Feb 12, 2010 08:17 PM

... Homo sapiens.

I guess we should eradicate ourselves.

Lia Feb 14, 2010 06:00 PM

Posted by: natsamjosh at Fri Feb 12 20:17:09 2010

... Homo sapiens.

I guess we should eradicate ourselves
--------------------

lol thats funny and let me tell we go by Glades a lot. Area I go to is by Tamiami .
Unless you can teach exotics to drive bulldozers-cement trucks and give "under the table" kick backs to Miami politicians for selling wet lands they aren't the problem.

They are just easy to blame and PC to blame them.

Mike_Rochford Feb 13, 2010 09:53 PM

LOL... you're totally right. I didn't say I support it though.

Mike

WSTREPS Feb 11, 2010 07:18 PM

The only thing I would say along those lines would be that there aren't any predators that have been able to keep the pythons from being a common snake in ENP.

Hi Mike, there aren't any predators that have been able to keep the pythons from being a common snake anywhere in this animals natural range but some how they dont over populate or wipe out entire eco systems. Let me ask you .Why do you think this is ? .

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Calparsoni Feb 11, 2010 10:31 AM

Just a random question on the "natural predator" thing. Considering that the original range of the introduced species Sus scrofa (feral pig) is the continent of Eurasia and it's original range does in fact overlap with that of Burms, wouldn't that make it a "Natural Predator"? I am not sure of the actual range of cattle egrets in Africa but considering their appetite for reptiles I would think they would be a "natural predator" on african rocks. That aside just as Tom said there are plenty of native predators that eat snakes that do not have a field guide to the native reptiles of the U.S. so they can't tell the difference as to whether or not the snake they are eating is native or not.

SgtStinky Feb 12, 2010 04:40 PM

add sharks if they have to swim open water to invade the keys..

flherp Feb 12, 2010 07:00 AM

There is really no need for them to "drink" salt water. Eastern Diamondbacks and pygmies have migrated into the Lower Keys (at least as far as Big Pine Key. It is not really that unreasonable to assume that it might be possible with Burmese pythons. The argument of them traveling via the overseas highway is somewhat of a strawman argument. The ability to survive in a marine environment is quite possible for some species, asserting it is not a possibilty for Burmese is a bit absurd. The purpose of scientific investigation is to back-up assertions with those ugly fact thingies. Data and evidence need to be collected and examined - can they survive in a marine environment? How long? If you are so inclined, you could perform the experiment yourself, instead of grousing about something you believe to be true being contra to the findings of scientific study...C. Acutus occur in many brackish and estarine and marine habitats - they do survive in marine environments and are much more salt-tolerant than alligators. They even live in Lago Enriquillo, a hypersaline lake in the Dominican Republic...

Diamondbacks arrived in the Lower Keys via some pathway. Burmese could likewise migrate to the Lower Keys assuming that there was suitable prey available during the trip - they can survive prolonged periods without water and without food. This is not to assert that such a migration will occur, but that it could occur...

If there are papers or studies cited, please link to them.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 12, 2010 05:09 PM

I'm well aware that bivittatus occur in the Sunderbans[VAST MANGROVE SWAMP IN BANGLADESH AND INDIA] as well as the reproductive strategy of baby acutus hatching during the rainy season because at that time fresh water sits on top of the salt water. The reason being that salt water is much heavier than fresh water. I'm also very familiar with the crocs on Hispanola including Etang Sumatre in Haiti. There the young survive until their tounge osmoregulatory glands mature enough for them to survive by habituating the fresh water springs areas. Everyone knows that they [PYTHONS] CAN'T survive drinking pure salt water just as everyone knows they can live in mangrove swamp areas. I believe you missed the point of that post and perhaps ALL my post and that is the gross inaccuracies of the film and me asking WHO AND WHY ARE ALL THESE NEWS AGENCY'S AND FILM MAKERS BEING GIVEN FALSE INFORMATION WHILE HIGHLIGHTING RIDICULOUS SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS OF WHICH EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS WHAT THE RESULTS WILL BE...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 12, 2010 05:16 PM

By the way C. acutus have glands at the back of their tongue that act as an osmoregulatory agent. Also it's COMMON KNOWLEDGE in Asia that the Pythons can live in Mangrove swamp areas...I don't have to do any experiments to know that nor am I grousing. I'm just telling you facts...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 12, 2010 05:24 PM

By the way when EDB'S and Pygmy's first occupied the Keys it is likely there was perhaps a land bridge and if not certainly there was NO OVERSEAS HIWAY WITH 12,000,000 CARS A DAY DRIVING DOWN THERE. The very fact this road and the millions of people that travel on it day and night create a TREMENDOUS BARRIER against colonization far more effective than almost any natural barrier might. Just drive to Key West once and you'll comepletely understand...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

flherp Feb 12, 2010 06:48 PM

They could also have traveled there via the water. EDBs have been found on small islands in Florida Bay as well, no need for an unparsimonious land-bridge hypothesis...

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 12, 2010 07:53 PM

If you read my response I acknowledged that is possible. In fact I know a fair amount about the EDB'S down south. They are also found on some uninhabited keys still today and in other places have been documented swimming and floating in salt water. This is NO BIG revelation. But I doubt they could colonize today....LOL By the way there is also a little matter[REALLY A HUGE MATTER..LOL] called THE GULF STREAM that comes into play. Before I discuss this at length perhaps you should google it. Did you ever wonder why there are NO CUBAN BOAS HERE OR EDB'S IN CUBA. I did 30 years ago and found out why. I haven't mentioned this YET as I'm reasonbly sure most researchers are not aware of the implications as I doubt you are...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

flherp Feb 13, 2010 08:36 AM

Eastern Diamondbacks are coming from the other direction - not from the South, from the North. As it is assumed Burmese could - not will, could. If you look at the geological history of South Florida, South Florida and the keys only emerged some 5000 or 6000 years ago and it is not likely that there were land bridges present between the islands since their emergence. No land bridges necessary to allow Easter Diamondbacks to migrate into the lower Keys, they could swim to the islands if fortunate. No real interference from the Gulf Stream either as it is a warm water current (The Florida Current) that tends to flow around the southern tip of the Keys, not through the Keys. The position that such a migration would only occur via a land pathway is fairly easy to dismiss. Likewise the assertion that the Burmese or Crocodylus acutus cannot survive in a estuarine or marine environment; This is a dubious premise at best. Not drinking salt water, which is an oversimplification, but what time period could they survive in a hypersaline environment. I don't think Burmese have any osmoregulatory adaptations for survival in a marine environment, but if an Eastern Diamondback can survive the trek it is not too great a leap to see it happening with another snake species.

Much of this is can be made out to be much ado about nothing, but arguing that certain things can't or won't happen without experimentation or more information is fruitless. It is not a case of I believe, but of something that can be demonstrated and backed up with data. Not unfounded assertions. It seems that this is something that everyone here decries, but they continually make assertions about what will or can happen on the basis of very little information. Keeping Burmese in captivity is not the best way to obtain information about their habits in the field. Misinterpreting scientific research should be left to journalists - find the original source material and read it. It can be difficult and full of jargon, but once you learn to wade through some of the more dense material, it can be well worth the time (at least sometimes). Most conclusions are qualified on the basis of assumptions made by the investigator. There are plenty of researchers who enjoy nothing better than shooting holes in other researchers theories.

That being said, I agree with a great deal of what Tom and Mike said - there will be a significant impact if some of this legislation is passed and all of us who own reptiles have a stake in this. For my part, I doubt there is collusion between honest scientific research and certain ideologically driven organizations, it is an unfortunate confluence of events. The media simplifies stories to fit a narrative and often distorts information to fit the story they wish to tell. Obtaining a retraction is possible, but finding a retraction in the media is often a sort of "Where's Waldo" enterprise...We are all guilty of confirmation bias - only seeing that information that reinforces our opinions and not that which disconfirms our already held beliefs...

cychluraguy Feb 13, 2010 08:57 AM

The entire florida keys and south florida were all one landmass during the last iceage 20,000 years ago and as the seas rose the islands were formed so at one time it was all conected. 5000 to 6000 years ago was when the evergaldes were formed from a higher water table.
Rob

WSTREPS Feb 13, 2010 09:19 AM

" It is not a case of I believe, but of something that can be demonstrated and backed up with data. Not unfounded assertions. It seems that this is something that everyone here decries, but they continually make assertions about what will or can happen on the basis of very little information. "

It should be made clear that this also includes the research scientist associated with this project and the novice academic groupies that follow them. You really should start posting your full name.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 13, 2010 10:34 AM

You apparently are NOT reading what I said. I said that C. acutus as adults are able to live and do live in marine ecosystems because of the glands near the back of the tongue that act as an osmoregulatory agent. I said babies can NOT SURVIVE for long in salt water. I even explained how the babies survive here and on Hispanola in different ways. While the deep part of the Gulf Stream occurs just south of Key West it still has a huge effect further north as well and yes in the Florida Keys. All one has to do is stop on the 7 mile bridge and watch how fast the current is. The Everglades were completly underwater during the Pleistocene Era some 8,000-12,000 years ago. The only part of Florida out of the water was the Lake Wales Ridge area. The Gulf Stream then gets away from the coastline quickly until you get to the area where North and South Carolina meet and then it's fairly close to the U.S. coastline again. Once again I just took exception to the STUPID STATEMENT THAT POSSIBLY THE PYTHONS MIGHT CRAWL DOWN U.S. 1 AND COLONIZE THE KEYS. Why do you keep beating a dead horse and who are you?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

flherp Feb 13, 2010 12:42 PM

In your initial post you do not specifically state that Burmese pythons or adult Crocodylus acutus occur in brackish, estuarine or marine environments - you assume the reader can fill in the details and that the reader has some knowledge of these animals in their native environs. I don't know if that is a fair assumption and I think it creates a strawman argument for you to take down - "Who would be stupid enough to see if Burmese pythons can drink salt-water?" These are the same types of statements that you would skewer the "scientists" and "media" for making - incomplete and easily taken out of context. If you are going to make an assertion, complete the idea. The statement that "A guy named Tamer Ellis did that experiment with C. acutus back in the 70's and even baby native crocs die in pure salt water. Mazzotti is well aware of that as I suspect you are." implies that crocs, even baby crocs die in pure salt water (and that Frank Mazzotti should know this, if that is in fact what he is trying to demonstrate). It is not at all clear that adult corcs can survive in hypersaline environments. Nor does it address the presence of Burmese pythons in brackish, estuarine and marine environments in their natural range. Nothing taken out of context - your strawman argument is just not sound.

The currents are strongest during tide changes; not attributable to the Florida Current. Also if you look at the Florida Current as a means of transport, it would be conceivable, perhaps, to transport an animal via that current to the Keys from Southwest Florida. I wouldn't say probable, but certainly not out of the realm of reality for a very lucky individual or two.

The impact of hurricanes on the relocation of flora and fauna is also ignored in this context - it is conveniently included with respect to introducing Burmese, but left out in any conversation discussing any outward spread of Burmese. Not that this is any more likely than any other reasonable scenario.

Perhaps the media came up with the pythons traveling down US-1 on their own - maybe due to a lack of imagination (in this one instance). Refuting the US-1 route of migration theory is pretty easy and creates another strawman argument. Is this the sole route of migration or are others possible, perhaps some that are a bit more realistic? Pythons have been found in the area of the Key Largo and towards Ocean Reef along Card Sound Road. The idea of them making it as far as Key Largo is not unrealistic. I wouldn't make a projection about anything further than that.

I really have some difficulty watching many of these "educational" programs, because they are more about entertainment than education. They tend to reward the making of extravagant claims over more understated premises that usually form the basis of much of science.

You guys sound like bureaucrats or politicians: admit nothing, deny everything and make counter accusations.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 13, 2010 01:07 PM

WE SOUND LIKE BEAURACRATS AND POLITICIANS? READ WHAT YOU WROTE...WOW...You talk about EDB'S and Pygmy's[suggesting Pythons could get there the same way] living on Big Pine and in this post isinuate that Key Largo is as far south as they can go. No wonder you won't sign your name...Even in your post with the copy of my statement it clearly says BABY CROCODILES. Why would you think I included adults?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

flherp Feb 15, 2010 09:47 AM

Tom,

You state that "EVEN (emphasis mine) baby native crocs die in pure salt water", the implication being that other age groups are similarly affected - from the context of your own statement. I know this is not what you meant, but it is what you said. This is how easily the meaning of a statement can be misconstrued for good or ill. So I take the assertion that the study is interested in the ability of Burmese pythons to drink salt water with, well, a grain of salt.

Both Pygmies and EDBs occur in the Lower Keys and are often found on small mangrove islands on both Bay and Ocean side pretty well removed from the named keys. The native species have moved actively and passively into these areas. Arguing that it cannot be done is demonstrably false. Arguing that there are currently barriers to such a migration may be a better tack. Spending a great deal of energy dismissing US-1 as a route of migration seems to be a misallocation of time and energy.

Northern Key Largo has areas which are largely undeveloped and connected to the mainland making it an easier area for Burmese to be established and less likely to be removed, struck by a vehicle, etc. But not less likely they might be eaten by crocs. Once you get to Southern Key Largo, past MM 104 or so there is considerably more development and a large snake is not as likely to go undetected as in the more Northerly portions of Key Largo. The exception would be those swaths of land reserved for the national, state and local parks. However, I said I wouldn't make a projection about their ability to become established further South, I did not insinuate that it was not possible. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive. I withheld judgment on whether it was likely or unlikely. I can make an assessment of the one and withhold my opinion on anything further without more information. That is the meaning of "I wouldn't make a projection about anything further than that."

I also see a bit of development pressure on the Northern borders of the potential range for Burmese Pythons once you approach the nexus of Tampa-Orlando-Daytona (maybe even further South to the East). I am also willing to admit I don't know if the range will extend, or over what time period such an extension could occur. I would not assign a probability to such an extension at any rate. Perhaps, something which does not fit a current model (an unseasonably cold winter in South Florida and a really cold winter in the rest of the Southeast) will lead to a change in assumptions.

Instead of wondering who you are corresponding with, it is better to concern yourself with the ideas presented and developing a good counter argument. Ad hominem arguments are usually used by those who have weak counter arguments and undermine the position of that person (except on the interwebs). Poor ideas can be presented by an authority, particularly when that person is addressing a subject outside of their area of expertise - appeal to authority. The argument that the scientists are all in it for the millions of dollars of research money available is also not a compelling argument against the science - it also undermines the assertion by industry representatives that legislation will affect a billion dollar industry (who has the most to gain or lose?). Those in the industry have a bit of skin in the game and the scientists they depend on can be seen as shills for their "owners" a la Big Tobacco. Reading the original source material (however painful that may be for some) and developing legitimate questions as to the validity of assumptions, data, findings, conclusions and recommendations is a better way to address the concerns. Once that is developed, then you can approach the media so that they can completely distort what you say. I would not depend on any one's interpretation, I would look at the original source documents.

You sound like a politician or bureaucrat in the context of admitting nothing, denying everything and making counter accusations (at least the last bit is true, and the majority of that was directed at your good friend Ernie Eison (LOL)), you have been rather conciliatory on some of the positions taken by Mike Rochford. Any approach is going to take some compromise and a great deal of involvement by reptile dealers, owners and keepers.

wstreps Feb 15, 2010 11:03 AM

" Instead of wondering who you are corresponding with, it is better to concern yourself with the ideas presented and developing a good counter argument."

Well, for the fun of it why don't you let EVERYONE know what I already know...who you are? As for your remark concerning me...Flherp, You are playing the very same game that you falsely accuse me of playing. What you and some others have attempted to direct at me...is really a poorly conceived attempt at redirection,a strategy often utilized during the silly games that go on between freshman during classroom debates.Very amateurish both in its concerption and its execution, Bad form flherp.

When given the opportunity to answer direct questions posed by me the burms in the glades crew... could do nothing more then attack me on a personal level, while at the same time avoiding the questions. Very predictable and reafirming of my point of view conerning these individuals.Indivduals such as these(you)hide under the vale of ambiguity, its a safe place where you can debate and play word games, speculate, practice your verbal gymnastics,cover up your lack of experince and understanding etc. All to your hearts content,then give yourself a big pat on the back for being so smart, and all without ever proving anything or making a legitimate point.

Rather then wasting anymore time going round and round with you, Im not a big fan of beating around the bush,

I think what I said privately to Mike summed you up in a nut shell well enough.

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

flherp Feb 15, 2010 11:30 AM

That's the admit nothing, deny everything and make counter accusations thing Ernie. It does not get anywhere...

flherp Feb 15, 2010 11:49 AM

FL Senate S318 to committee, this is a pressing problem for those in Florida...

http://usark.org/campaign.php?id=11

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 16, 2010 07:45 AM

Ernie, you are correct on this one. I totaly agree...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 16, 2010 08:27 AM

You remind me of an armchair quaterback living their lives vicariously through other peoples actions. Your either that or simply an internet troll desperate for attention. Either way you're unimportant in the scheme of events. How you can compare colonization of herps from 10,000 years ago and somehow validate the Pythons arriving there also because the other herps managed to is absurd and clearly shows your need for attention. You are either with us or against us. Like most politicians I doubt anyone here knows your position. I certainly don't know exactly where you're coming from and perhaps you don't know either...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

cychluraguy Feb 16, 2010 10:26 AM

You remind me of an armchair quaterback living their lives vicariously through other peoples actions. Your either that or simply an internet troll desperate for attention. Either way you're unimportant in the scheme of events. How you can compare colonization of herps from 10,000 years ago and somehow validate the Pythons arriving there also because the other herps managed to is absurd and clearly shows your need for attention. You are either with us or against us. Like most politicians I doubt anyone here knows your position. I certainly don't know exactly where you're coming from and perhaps you don't know either...LOL

Tom,
Im not sure if this was directed at me or if it was ment for someone else? If it was at me you have miss interpreted what my point is. The Discussion was about how the animals arrived in the keys and my piont was they have always been there because it was once all land and not bacause they crossed salt water.
Rob

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 16, 2010 03:23 PM

No this was directed at the other guy not you at all. You make sense...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

cychluraguy Feb 13, 2010 11:37 PM

pasted from:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/guerry/GLY4155/sp35/Fgs35.HTM

The Holocene Epoch began 10,000 years ago during a slow warming of the Earth’s climate. Sea level climbed intermittently toward its present level from a glacial low about 8,000 years ago. As the encroaching sea shrank the state to its present size, paleo-Indians spread throughout Florida, flourishing on the abundant resources. The first paleo-Indians probably migrated into the state from the continental mainland between 10,000 and 12,000 years ago. The earliest documentation of man’s presence in Florida comes from Little Salt Spring in Sarasota County. Paleo-Indian skeletal remains from this site have been dated at over 10,000 years old.

Sea level then was as much as 100 feet lower than at present, and the land area of Florida was much larger than it is n

During the paleo-Indian period (14,000 - 8,500 BP) and the Archaic period (8,500 - 3,000 BP) which followed, exploitation of the geologic resources of Florida was probably limited to the use of caves and sinks as water sources and possible shelter, and outcrops of chert for the production of projectile points, scrapers and other lithic tools. The next major advancement in the utilization of geologic resources was the manufacture of fired clay pottery. The earliest examples of pottery appear at various places in the state between 3,000 - 4,000 BP. The use of clay or mud to seal vertical post-walled structures and the use of sandstone scrapers has also been documented.

Throughout much of the Neogene and Pleistocene, Florida was home to a diverse animal population (Figure 18, Figure 19, Figure 20, and Figure 21). Many unique and now-extinct species migrated into temperate Florida to escape the cold and ice of the huge glaciers to the north. Fossil remains found today in Neogene and Pleistocene deposits include mastodons, mammoths, black bears, giant sloths, capybaras, beavers, lemmings, dire wolves, horses, tapirs, camels, glyptodonts, llamas and saber-toothed cats. Florida may have been a final refuge for many species as extinction took its toll on the once-diverse animal populations. Animals such as the mastodon, mammoth, giant sloth, and saber-toothed cat disappeared forever.

th the rising sea level during the Holocene came a corresponding rise in the state’s ground-water table. Most of Florida’s springs, lakes, and spring-fed river systems developed during the Holocene Epoch. The rate of sea level rise slowed about 3,500 years ago when sea level was five feet below present level. By that time the beaches, barrier islands, and spits characterizing Florida’s modern coastline had evolved. The complex geologic processes which shaped Florida into its present form continue today. Florida continues to evolve as the sea shapes the coasts and redistributes the sands and other sediments which are to be the rocks of future epochs.

cychluraguy Feb 13, 2010 11:40 PM

Man what bad spelling!!!LOL

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 13, 2010 10:44 AM

SOMEBODY, SOMEWHERE GAVE NATGEO INFO THAT SUGGESTED THEY CAN CRAWL TO THE LOWER KEYS. THE SAME FOLKS SAID THAT THE PYTHONS HAVE NO PREDATORS HERE. IT WASN'T US AND BOTH THOSE STATEMENTS ARE STUPID AND FALSE. WHO MADE THOSE WILD ASSUMPTIONS? I'VE BEEN ASKING THIS QUESTION OVER AND OVER AGAIN. WE [HERPERS] DIDN'T GIVE THE INFO TO THEM. DID YOU GIVE IT TO THEM? Mike, himself said these statements are in fact NOT TRUE so who is doing it? Imagine a giant snake crawling along the 7 mile bridge with tens of thousands of automobiles. I see a Far Side cartoon in the making...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Jaykis Feb 13, 2010 11:22 AM

Tom, didn't you know that Bums can read road signs? That's why they're spreading north.

Jonathan_Brady Feb 13, 2010 02:05 PM

I want to say thank you for coming on this forum. I would assume it is a bit like a gazelle trotting into the lion's den. I also assume that you knew that your comments here would be viewed with great scrutiny and that your motives, intelligence, and ethics would be questioned, yet you showed up anyway. So again, thank you.

I think despite the tongue lashing you have received, all of us acknowledge that it's not the easiest thing in the world to do to walk into a situation, SOLO I might add, and try to share information that is unpopular, and/or take part in a discussion when you have a tie to an unpopular organization. I honestly appreciate your courage and confidence and my level of respect for you has grown immensely.

We can only hope that others within the organizations falling under the Dept of the Interior will be as receptive to the criticisms of those organizations as you have been.

The biggest thing I've taken away from your contributions to this thread is that you are not in favor of the proposed legislation. This gives me hope that not every person working within the DOI isn't on board with the agenda of Senator Nelson and Secretary Salazar. My question though is this, why aren't you in favor of it? Is it because you do not believe measures to restrict interstate transport will have any effect on wild populations, or because you don't want the lawmakers overstepping their bounds? I suppose another way to ask this is, would you be supportive of the USFWS listing these animals as injurious (same effect, different means)?

Thanks again for coming here. Even if the forum users here won't admit it (although I'm sure they would), they do appreciate having a representative of the organizations we're pretty pissed off at here as a sounding board, and available to answer questions when you're permitted.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 13, 2010 02:21 PM

I believe that Mike knows from my latter post that I also am appreciative of him answering some of my questions to the best of his ability. Personally I feel a lot better about the whole thing from our converstations and I believe at least a portion of a bridge has been built. In all fairness I've said that many things he has said are in fact truthful and we are NOT lily white either. I urge him to continue this dialogue as it would be helpful to all of us..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Mike_Rochford Feb 13, 2010 03:52 PM

Thank you Jonathan and Tom for the kind words.

I will be back to reply to a lot of what has been said. It's a busy weekend with V-day tomorrow and the fact that I procrastinated when it comes to shopping means I was out today catching up on that and also I've got to work tonight but I have been reading each new comment on my phone as it has come in. I don't know if I'll be able to respond to each and every comment as it's a bit overwhelming but I will try my best to keep up.

For now though I'm headed to ENP.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Mike

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 13, 2010 04:28 PM

I think you have HUGE cojones for even responding at all. You certainly gained my respect for your candid straight forward no bull crap answers...LOL...If I can ever be of any service to you rest assured I will do just that if possible. I am also willing if you wish to give you any and all data on the Burmese or anything else if you wish. Many people contact me when they find a Python and I always ask where and when. I am not just speaking for myself when I say the herp community could be a tremendous ally and would be if it were not for the bad perception we have of being stabbed in the back by the entire project.....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Jonathan_Brady Feb 13, 2010 04:45 PM

I think the very best gains could be made if all parties involved swallowed their damn pride and admitted that mistakes have been made, then agreed to wipe the slate clean and start from scratch.

Yes, reptile dealers, owners, importers, etc. have probably made mistakes by releasing, disposing, and improperly securing cages in the past. Yes, Hurricane Andrew very likely had the largest impact of any single action on the population of Burms in the ENP. The reptile enthusiasts all know this, and the scientific orgs also know this (although they're probably being misquoted repeatedly by the media so we don't think that's the situation).

Additionally, the scientific community/government orgs could and should admit that they have, in general, approached this the wrong way by trying to portray our industry as a group of stupid, irresponsible, extremists, and by choosing to publish VERY poor quality science.

If a press conference were called with the USFWS, USGS, NPS/ENP, as well as representatives from the reptile industry and we all agreed that the current route is a complete and utter waste of time and then state that we are all dedicating ourselves to a TRUE solution, I bet we could actually make some real progress.

But to do this, we'll all have to check our egos at the door, forget about the past, and bury the hatchet. I feel confident in saying that if the orgs admitted they made mistakes and were earnestly seeking our help and involvement, that our industry could probably admit the same then we could all move on (as a whole, obviously there will be individual outliers) and we could make a serious dent in this problem and ABSOLUTELY come up with better standards to prevent situations like this from happening in the future.

The question is; is this just a dream of mine? Anyone ready to swallow their pride first?

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 13, 2010 06:12 PM

I would have NO problem with that and in fact suggested that in this same thread yesterday. My bet would be that they won't do it no matter what Mike's opinion might be. Unfortunately I still believe that the mortality figures are being deliberately withheld. All other wildlife deaths have been reported but NOT on Pythons. One has to question the motivation on that. I still call them as I see them. I hope I'm wrong but I doubt it...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Mike_Rochford Feb 13, 2010 10:40 PM

I'm not against that idea but there are a few problems. First, not all python scientists share the same opinions on the same issues. What I believe might be 100% different than what some of the other people involved believe. And this is also true for keepers/breeders. How can we find consensus between our two sides if we don't even have it within them? Second, I would need permission from my boss. I'm not a big wig like the rest of them and I know my place... not that I haven't been given a good amount of freedom. One thing I'd like to explain the structure of the relationships between all of the scientists. We all work together to some degree. But within the group "python biologists" there are sub-groups. The sub-groups work on different topics (but still involving pythons) most of the time but sometimes we collaborate on one thing or another. It's a very complicated web but the point is that one group might share a set of beliefs that is different from the other. And also, an individual within the group might share a different belief than everyone else. So, the question is, how do we reach universal agreement? I'm not saying I'm against it (at all). I'm just pointing out the inevitable complications.

I will also say that despite some bad quotes in the media, we have also made deliberate attempt to avoid fear-mongering. For example, Frank had been asked to testify in favor of the federal legislation during the congressional hearings and he declined because he doesn't want to get involved in all that political BS. I can't even begin to tell you how many TV requests Frank has turned down over the years. I've been here for almost 4 years now and we've only done 3 shows in that time. I PROMISE we get MANY more requests than that. None of us have ANY interest in doing shows like Monster Quest that are PURE HYPE. NatGeo and Nature are supposed to be pretty respectable outlets and it's REALLY hard to tell what the show is going to look like in the end. All I know is they followed us around for a week while we were doing normal work stuff. I had no idea there would be a story about a pet python attacking a girl or anything else that wasn't directly related to our research. And another example I can think of when we specifically avoided making something public was when one of us was "attacked" by a python. I use the quotes because I don't like that word but I don't know how else to say it. We wrote up the whole thing for publication in a herp journal but decided against submitting it because of the panic it would have induced. I don't want to get into too many details because I don't want this story being spread and exaggerated and causing harm to the hobby but my OPINION is that the snake struck out of an ambush position and had the "attackee" in mind as a prey item. I think it was a case of mistaken identity/size and perhaps the snake would have stopped on its own but my OPINION is that at least for a little bit the snake wanted to eat the guy. And I've been keeping/catching/observing snakes for 20 years now so I'm not 100% clueless. Anyone that is facebook friends with me will immediately notice that when I'm not working I'm herping. And, just for the sake of showing I have an interest in both sides of this debate, here is a list of animals I've kept over the years (off the top of my head)...

Python regius
Boa constrictor
Morelia spilota
Morelia viridis
Lampropeltis alterna
Elaphe obsoleta (I know it has changed names now)
Elaphe emoryi
Agkistrodon contortrix
Crotalus horridus
Crotalus cerastes
Crotalus mitchelli
Crotalus stephensi
Crotalus viridis
Crotalus oreganus helleri
Crotalus lepidus lepidus
Crotalus lepidus klauberi
Crotalus molossus
Sistrurus catentatus tergeminus
Crotalus ruber
Paleosuchus palpebrosus

And I would still have half of that stuff if it weren't for FWC regulations.

And just a note, my mom wouldn't let me keep any large constrictors when I was a kid and my interest shifted to hots when I got older. But I tried to convince her to let me get burms/afrocks when I was 10. Anyway, I'm sure I've kept more than just that but I can't remember much else at the moment. The point is that I do enjoy keeping herps and understand the pains of legislation.

Mike

RandyRemington Feb 13, 2010 05:08 PM

"My question though is this, why aren't you in favor of it? Is it because you do not believe measures to restrict interstate transport will have any effect on wild populations, or because you don't want the lawmakers overstepping their bounds? I suppose another way to ask this is, would you be supportive of the USFWS listing these animals as injurious (same effect, different means)?"

This touches on another question I find interesting. For me the biggest flaw in the proposed legislation was that the pythons where already in the one place they could survive so I didn't see any possible benefit for trading in freedom. I think the research this winter will put the 1/3 US map to rest for good. Will all agree now that it’s a Florida only problem?

But what IF it had been just a little colder and the python kill line got pushed from just north of the Glades all the way to the bottom? What if that happens next January? What IF we had a clean slate and there where no longer any Burmese pythons in the Everglades? Then there actually might be some benefit to restricting them in Florida.

But wait, they already are restricted in Florida so hypothetical problem solved ... I mean really, how many people are buying Burmese pythons with the current Florida license requirements? I bet none of the few doing it legally would release any much less the numbers needed to start a new population. Just require any importers to bag the 900 they are holding for shipping out of state in Kevlar in case of evacuation and we are all set, lol.

Jaykis Feb 13, 2010 05:23 PM

I do believe there are two facts that must be observed. There IS documented DNA work that most of the Burms in ENG are related. This was done by a graduate student at FIU. The paper is available.
Secondly, if most of the Burms in Fl were captive releases, considering what is being kept by private keeper as far as morphs are concerned, shouldn't there be far more morphs being found? Yeah, there is the "exploding" albino python pic, but for the most part, the lack of morphs being found versus the amounts of them being kept should be an indicator that this is not natural.

RandyRemington Feb 14, 2010 06:50 PM

The reported narrow DNA profile of the Glades pythons is very interesting. I'm waffling between two theories:

Super Burm Nature Theory: My original theory was based on the RI problems I had years ago keeping mutant burms and heard others report more recently. I figured humidity was a factor (the Everglades being much better for Burms than I could provide in Colorado) but could that fully explain why we struggle with captive Burmese pythons and slight chills while they apparently thrive in the Everglades? Also weighing heavily is the VPI report of keeping large Burms in indoor/outdoor cages in south TX and seeing no apparent thermoregulation instinct to avoid cold. The captive reports got me wondering if the founders of the Everglades population where from a special locality as different from the captive morph burm population as say Argentine boas from other boas. Maybe the reason we don't hear of morph burms in the Everglades is that all other lines of Burms that happen to find themselves loose in Florida die out each winter and the Everglades strain is from a marginally tropical location where they evolved some cold avoidance instincts over millennia. That is, the Everglades burms are super burms much better genetically adapted to cool but still just barely able to hang on only in South Florida (i.e. the only marginally tropical part of the US). If there is new blood coming into the Glades it's likely of a more solidly tropical descendent line (why would a Central Thai or Vietnamese line need instincts for cold avoidance?) that has no concept of cold and doesn't survive long enough to breed.

The Numbers Nurture Theory: This is what I remember from a conversation with someone who knows a lot more than me on both Burmese and Florida. Basically it's that if you release any (other than an albino) baby burm it will have the opportunity to learn thermoregulation in a non optimal but still tropical climate. They still can't learn to survive north of maybe I75 but even south of there they need to learn to hide from the coldest nights. Also that our captive breeding conditions aren't nearly as good as we think they are. Small cages (relative to adult burm size) and bad air quality cause the captive respiratory problems. Something about the Everglades (the space, the clean air, maybe even exercise or varied diet but I don't think those last two where mentioned) is actually better even with seasonally cool South Florida nights for Burmese health than what we provide in captivity. You would still need to release a huge number of baby Burmese for enough to survive the thermoregulation learning curve on the very edge of the tropical zone and massive predation to reach breeding size. Here enters the hurricane release of 900 imported hatchlings; maybe only 5 or 6 of those made it to breeding size and those are the founders of the Everglades population. Another aspect of this theory of explaining the narrow Everglades genetics was that the Everglades are too far for irresponsible pet keepers to bother driving to dump there unwanted pets (which probably wouldn't be babies young enough to learn to avoid cold nights or if small would most likely all be eaten without large numbers of siblings also rolling dice against those odds).

antelope Feb 13, 2010 08:52 PM

I also am glad you showed up and responded Mike, I always did have respect for what you do and what you have had to say, 'cause you call 'em like you see 'em. Please take it to heart that some of us are appreciative of your efforts, and if you get any time off and are in the neighborhood, I'll show you around the Corpus Christi, Texas area and buy you a brew. or two. Matter of fact, I think everyone here should buy you a brew, or two, lol. I don't have any dogs in this fight, but as a field herper and keeper of native colubrids, I stand shoulder to shoulder with all that want to see good science go forward and bad laws trounced before being made.
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Todd Hughes

Mike_Rochford Feb 13, 2010 11:08 PM

The biggest thing I've taken away from your contributions to this thread is that you are not in favor of the proposed legislation. This gives me hope that not every person working within the DOI isn't on board with the agenda of Senator Nelson and Secretary Salazar. My question though is this, why aren't you in favor of it? Is it because you do not believe measures to restrict interstate transport will have any effect on wild populations, or because you don't want the lawmakers overstepping their bounds? I suppose another way to ask this is, would you be supportive of the USFWS listing these animals as injurious (same effect, different means)?

I've grown somewhat accustomed to the criticism. I like to know what everyone thinks about what we do. I think that in any debate it's important to know what the other side of the story is and the reasons behind the opposing beliefs (if we do have any opposing beliefs...).

I'm not in favor of the legislation for a number of reasons. First of all, I think the herp trade is being "picked on" because it is relatively unpopular. I hate feral cats as much as anyone and it's hard to justify python legislation without cat legislation. One of the flaws with democracy is that sometimes it's more of a popularity contest than anything else.

Second, I don't think it's a federal issue. However, I think it's really important that some southern states do something similar to what Florida has done and I'm not sure they would do it on their own. Any reason pythons couldn't establish in coastal areas around Brownsville, TX? I'm not saying one way or another but I think we should be careful. I like the permitting system because it discourages impulse buys but for people who REALLY want the animals it's not impossible to obtain them. But why should we ban pythons in Alaska, Montana, Maine, etc?

I do support some kind of change I just haven't liked anything that has been proposed. We can't keep letting things become established. Even if some people don't care about invasive species, the reality of the situation is that a lot of people do.

Anyway, I'm not really bothered by the criticism. I just hope people realize that I'm here because I want to be and that alone should imply SOME good will. And I hope someday this is all resolved in a somewhat peaceful way. I think it's going to require compromise (from both sides), hard work, and follow-through, but I'm encouraged by the dialogue we've had so far. I also hope people realize that I'm just one person with very little power to change things. But I do have the inside scoop and will try to provide accurate info that I hope you can trust (at least a little bit) when I can.

Mike

wstreps Feb 14, 2010 07:40 AM

I'm not in favor of the legislation for a number of reasons. First of all, I think the herp trade is being "picked on" because it is relatively unpopular. I hate feral cats as much as anyone and it's hard to justify python legislation without cat legislation.

This is a view that is shared by many but is far to over simplified in its conception. The reptile trade was always the bottom rung of the ladder in terms of exotic ownership legislative pressure. With a few exceptions every ten years or so a big issue would pop up, it was a pretty much do what you want business. Local, private ordinances, guys facing personal issues, General pet type laws was most of what went on. There was no glory, no money, no real anything in wasting the time and resources going after the reptile guys in high profile and wide sweeping manor

The Burmese python in the glades game changed all that. It is the first time that something of a truly high profile nature, something "worthy" of front page news and a national stage has come about involving the reptile segment of the exotic animal trade, the trade isn't being "picked on" because its unpopular there's more............ a lot more to it. Its about popularity but that word needs to be used in a broader spectrum then your phrasing implies.

Even if some people don't care about invasive species, the reality of the situation is that a lot of people do.

And that's a big part of the problem, personal philosophy gets mixed in with unbiassed fact finding science, from there...........

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

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