Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why is the ENP able to release information about all of the other dead wild life due to the cold snap? David Hallac gave information on dead Manatees, American Crocodiles and fish but simply said that he did not know the numbers of dead pythons or telemetry pythons. So if you have those numbers why can’t they be released? Why is the total number of telemetry pythons and the number of these pythons that have died such a secret? I under stand that the paper may come to some conclusions that you want to be presented once all the data has been reviewed, however giving factual numbers of pythons that are dead, alive, being tracked or in any other state will have no bearing on the outcome of your papers conclusion.

Thanks,
Greg Graziani
GRAZIANI REPTILES INC.
(863) 465-2228 Office
(863) 441-1408 Cell
info@grazianireptiles.com
www.grazianireptiles.com

Grazinai Reptiles Inc.

Hi Greg,

The reason is because the journal we want to submit this to will not accept anything that has already been reported by newspapers/tv/etc. You can imagine that as soon as we release the numbers there will be a media frenzy. In addition to that, other scientists could potentially steal our data if we make it public before it is published and they could publish it themselves. I had a conversation with Skip on Thursday of last week and he said he is mindful of what's going on with the legislation and that these data will be made public before all of that is over. But for now, I think everyone can rest somewhat comfortably knowing that a lot of pythons died. I can verify some of what is in the newspaper article that was posted elsewhere... that Joe Wasilewski, Kenney Krysko, and others went out and found 14 burms one weekend and half were alive and half were dead. Our paper will cover all pythons reported to us (telemetered and non-telemetered animals) in a timely manner after the cold fronts and will provide details on how and where each animal was found as well as their condition (alive/dead). If there were a conspiracy I wouldn't come on here and say A LOT OF PYTHONS DIED!!! There are many survivors though. I'm sorry for the delay but I can assure you that everyone working on the paper has made it their number 1 priority. We've worked days/nights/weekends to complete our respective parts and have been pulled away from their other duties (writing books, looking for dead crocs, etc) to get this out ASAP. There are currently 7 authors (subject to change) and so coordinating everything and sending it back and forth for review within our own group is an undertaking in and of itself. We want this to be released in a peer-reviewed fashion to avoid the criticism dealt to the USGS risk assessment when that came out. All I can say is that I hope people understand and that we're working on it as hard as we can (my part is currently done (unless something else comes up) or else I would not be playing on the forums (even on the weekend).

Mike

Have you ever seen any unusual color morphs of pythons?

Thank you.

Mike,
I understand the position you are in. Would it be possible to release the number of total “Judas” snakes that were used in ENP. Is that information public information? I’m not asking if they are dead or alive just how many were being tracked.

Thanks,
Greg
GRAZIANI REPTILES INC.
(863) 465-2228 Office
(863) 441-1408 Cell
info@grazianireptiles.com
www.grazianireptiles.com

One problem I seee is that there are probably many snakes that now have resp infections, and that's not as easily tracked. It's still chilly down there, especially the miami area. We may never now the residual effects of the cold snap.

A huge problem is that no one knows how many were there to start with. They are very difficult to find unless they are stretched out across the road. You can literally be looking right at one in the bush and not see it. They will never find the dead ones ever, except by dumb luck or finding bones.

No one has ever admitted that the only absolute known intentional release of a Burmese python were the ones implanted with the tracking device. No one has ever been caught, accused or convicted of deliberately releasing one. Ever. Except scientists. The major concentration fans out from ground zero, which would be the Homestead area where the importers destroyed by hurricane Andrew were located. If pet owners tiring of oversized pets were the reason, there would be releases found in the woods down the block from every college dorm in Florida and wherever these snakes have been sold for pets. Unless we are to believe every “irresponsible” Burmese owner makes the long trek specifically to the everglades to get rid of them. Every one in the country. Truth would seem to be that if it were releases from pet owners, they would be equally released everywhere they have been sold. So either that has not happened, or they can not survive anywhere else. And the survival of the ones in extreme sub-tropical south Florida is pretty slim too.

If they were releases, you'd see far more morphs, too.

Upscale, there is way too much common sense, honesty and logic in your post for this discussion.

>>A huge problem is that no one knows how many were there to start with. They are very difficult to find unless they are stretched out across the road. You can literally be looking right at one in the bush and not see it. They will never find the dead ones ever, except by dumb luck or finding bones.
>>
>>No one has ever admitted that the only absolute known intentional release of a Burmese python were the ones implanted with the tracking device. No one has ever been caught, accused or convicted of deliberately releasing one. Ever. Except scientists. The major concentration fans out from ground zero, which would be the Homestead area where the importers destroyed by hurricane Andrew were located. If pet owners tiring of oversized pets were the reason, there would be releases found in the woods down the block from every college dorm in Florida and wherever these snakes have been sold for pets. Unless we are to believe every “irresponsible” Burmese owner makes the long trek specifically to the everglades to get rid of them. Every one in the country. Truth would seem to be that if it were releases from pet owners, they would be equally released everywhere they have been sold. So either that has not happened, or they can not survive anywhere else. And the survival of the ones in extreme sub-tropical south Florida is pretty slim too.
>>

Greg,

I can't give that number, unfortunately. But I can assure you that this will all be public information before the congressional stuff is over.

Mike

MIKE I CAN'T THINK OF EVEN ONE GOOD REASON NOT TO SIMPLY STATE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF SNAKES DEAD AND ALIVE. No one is going to steal your data and write a paper. This is the ONE THING that really bothers me. Alright playing the devils advocate don't tell us numbers just tell us percentages. What percent of the studied Pythons died? No actual numbers just the percentage...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I'm sorry to disappoint but I'm not allowed to say it and it's not a decision for me to make. I can promise that it will be public before the hearings are over and I can say that with confidence but that's the best I can do right now.

Mike

Also, it has more to do with the journal not accepting it once that kind of info has been released than it does with people stealing the work.

Mike

>>Also, it has more to do with the journal not accepting it once that kind of info has been released than it does with people stealing the work.
>>
>>Mike

Sincere question. Why is getting accepted to the journal more important than getting the truth out as quickly as possible and helping end the hysteria as quickly as possible?

Fair question. We were originally going to submit this to the journal "Science" and this is what they have to say on their web site:

Prior publication: Science will not consider any paper or component of a paper that has been published or is under consideration for publication elsewhere. Distribution on the Internet may be considered prior publication and may compromise the originality of the paper as a submission to Science. Please contact the editors with questions regarding allowable postings.

Prior press coverage: Reports of the main findings of a paper in the mass media may compromise the novelty of the work and thus its appropriateness for Science. Authors are free to present their work at scientific meetings but should not overtly seek media attention or give copies of the figures or data from their manuscript to any reporter, unless the reporter agrees to abide by Science's press embargo. If a reporter attends an author's session at a meeting and writes a story based only on the presentation, such coverage will not affect Science's consideration of the author's paper.

That said, we're not 100% sure where we are going to submit this yet. So the terms may be slightly different but many journals have very similar guidelines and if you're feeling ambitious you can google a few yourself.

And, like I said, it's not even my decision to make.

Mike

My guess would be it will take somewhere around 6 months for the "published" study to hit the street, after it has been submitted.
No?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It varies from journal to journal but we are going to make sure it gets out sooner than that.

Mike

I would rather get the peer reviewed scientific journal material. For better or worse, at least we will be dealing with more factual info. less subject to an interpretational sway of a small group.

I can guarantee it will eliminate far flung shi* like I read in the USGS report. Being a scientist myself, I could spot that the report was created by gov. employees (probably serving someones agenda) to get a pay check, and not people with sound scientific interest. Mike, I get the feeling you know that a government ID card doesn`t qualify someone as a creditable source of logic--please never repeat the USGS mistake. I can only hope their report was out of ignorance, at least that way I could forgive a mistake.
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steve

Thank you for making that clear Mike. Citing the source was invaluable!

Will this be available prior to the close of the 60 day comment period for the USFWS?

I honestly feel like legislation is the least of our worries right now but the USFWS proposed rule change is an IMMENSE threat. I feel like they're going to consider the science of their brothers over at USGS prior to anything else published (ie, Pyron, Barker, etc..) and consider it factual due to the nepotistic relationship under the Dept of the Interior parent organization. If my fears are correct, we will see all 9 species listed as injurious, regardless of what the rest of the non-government based scientific community knows to be true.

So, will this be available within 60 days? Or if not, will the findings be allowed to be submitted to the USFWS privately for consideration?

Another possibility is that the USFWS push off the comment period until a time that these results can be published AND the results from SREL are published. Is that feasible?

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com
Deviant Constrictors picturetrail

Mike,

Joe Wasilewski was the guy who appeared on the idiotic Monster Quest shows. He went to central park in NY to search for giant killer snakes. Yeah, he's credible.

I think Tom knows Joe and would probably vouch for him on this one if you trust Tom's opinion more than mine.

Mike

>>I think Tom knows Joe and would probably vouch for him on this one if you trust Tom's opinion more than mine.
>>
>>Mike

I'll let Tom speak for himself, but he has already stated on one of the forums that what Joe did was ridiculous. I'll try to find the thread and post it.

I meant he would vouch for him when it comes to the 14 burms. I don't expect anyone to approve of the Monster Quest stuff. But I agree that I should let Tom speak for himself.

Mike

>>I meant he would vouch for him when it comes to the 14 burms. I don't expect anyone to approve of the Monster Quest stuff. But I agree that I should let Tom speak for himself.
>>
>>Mike

Mike, credibility is paramount. That's why in a court of law jurors are instructed to take a witness's credibility into account. What's really sad is that if this were all being played out in a court of law (which it damn well should be), the USGS/USFWS funded scientists creating the hysteria would be laughed out of court.

I agree that credibility is paramount. Like I said, I know that Joe and Kenney found those snakes (with the help of many others). Kenney was texting me all day about what they were finding. Although, there was some confusion for awhile about whether it was 13 or 14, I believe it was finally settled and it was 14: half alive, half dead.

Mike

Monster Quest wanted us to be part of that show but we turned them down.

Mike

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1782570,1783381

Of course, Mike, as usual you avoided the real issue. Do you believe it was ethical for a supposed "conservationist" to create hysteria by going to Central Park to look for killer snakes? Do you believe or not believe that doing this might actually be INJURIOUS to local wildlife, since people in New York might be more apt to kill any snake they see after watching the Monster Quest show?

Mike, I appreciate you coming on the forum, but please stop insulting everyones' intelligence.

I believe you are only insulting your own intelligence. I didn't say I support what he did on that show. In fact I know several people on the python project were not happy to see what he did on that show. All I said was that I know he found those 14 snakes.

Mike

Joe W. has been and still is a lifelong friend of mine. In fact a close friend. What he did on MonsterQuest was one of the dumbest things imaginable and yes I've told him that. As far as his REAL ability as a field Biologist he's a very good one. I know because I've worked with him on several projects. Right now he's been working in the Congo Basin of Africa and has a long excellent record of field studies on Cyclura populations in the Bahama's. Why he agreed to do the MonsterQuest idiocy is beyond me unless he simply needed the money. There is no question that it hurt his credibility to those that don't know him personally. I will tell you this and that is he is a REAL PRO FIELD BIOLOGIST. Again I agree that the show was not a good thing and hopefully nothing like that will ever happen again. Joe is still a CLOSE friend of mine regardless but he says that was only meant to be entertainment not a study. I explained that the layman believes that crap to be true and that he should know that without me explaining it to him. I am holding his Cuban Iguanas hostage if he ever does it again...LOL...Oh and his Jamaican Boa is in a hostage situation as well...LOL TWICE
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks for the response Tom. BTW, you know where to send that Jamaican boa if you decide not to send it to him....

It and the Cuban Iguanas are his but on breeding loan..I'll keep it in mind though...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>It and the Cuban Iguanas are his ...

LOL, all the more reason to give me the Jamaican.

Out of respect to you, I'll keep my thoughts to myself
from now on. I don't like to bash anyone, but I think you
understand my anger. I do educational presentations with
my snakes to elementary schools and at a local museum, and
it's that much tougher to educate people (especially kids) after
they see shows like "Monster Quest."

Thanks,
Ed

I THINK YOU SHOULD SPEAK OUT AGAINST SHOWS LIKE THAT AS YOU ARE 100% CORRECT. Please do not stop voicing your opinion as you are correct and to change fuure events we should ALL speak out. I always look forward to reading your responses and I agree with you...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Also Joe deserves the criticism for MonsterQuest...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com