Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I’ve just been reading through the mountain of threads concerning S373 thanks to Jonathan Brady coming over to the Boa Forum to let us know the real action is over here in the Burmese forums!! I’ve always considered myself fairly intelligent and reasonably logical but I still can’t get my head wrapped around the “real” reasons for this legislation. I am a Lower Florida Keys and New York homeowner (yes, snowbird!!) and I am all for protecting the Florida Everglades and the Keys from non-indigenous species. That being said, I am not a supporter of non-indigenous species anywhere but as someone that would like to protect the fragile ecosystems of the Florida Everglades and the Keys I have to ask the question…..Why have pythons and boas been singled out as the “poster” child for this supposed Everglades clean-up when there are far more damaging species currently residing and doing far more damage everyday as we speak in these environments? It seems obvious but if protecting the Everglades was really the concern, feral pigs and feral cats would be at the top of the list along with hundreds of other mammals, reptiles, fish and plants that are currently far more damaging. Could the real reason be POLITICAL?? Is the State of Florida and the Everglades National Park ultimately looking to tap into Federal Grant money to balloon the ENP budget to wage a new campaign to clean up the Everglades after the Everglades was declared “cleaned” up in 2007? Are the “scientists” and politician’s just using Pythons and Boas as a means to that end? Even though I am a “Boa Breeder,” I do not want to see the Everglades over run with non-indigenous species and as such I believe Florida has it’s priorities out of kilter with reality! This is especially true in light of the fact that Florida Fish and Wildlife already has very serious laws outlining the keeping of Reptiles of Concern. There hasn’t been enough time to measure the affect the current Florida laws have had and certainly, if one set of laws haven’t worked……what on God’s earth makes you think making more laws will have a different affect?? So once again I have to ask the question……Is this Legislation really about concern over the Everglades?? I’m not ready to throw Florida under the bus but how does banning pythons and boas nationwide have any connection to what is very obviously a lower Florida problem? Florida Fish and Wildlife have come up with a solution in their current laws covering the Reptiles of Concern yet the scientists and politician’s involved seem hell bent on not giving it time to work? Do you really believe the current Legislation being considered by the United States Senate and Congress is actually going to help “clean” up the Florida Everglades? Maybe I’m not as logical as I once thought!!
The second issue I’d like to address is the recent cold snap and it’s affect on the current population of pythons in the Everglades. While I would expect a fairly significant death rate of the feral Burmese pythons in the Everglades from out and out freezing to death, I have found as a boa breeder at least, that respiratory problems manifest themselves from weeks to months after exposure to the cold. I think that mortality will be just as high months from now as it was immediately after the recent Florida freeze. While the immediate counting of live and dead Burmese pythons in the Everglades is important, I think more significantly is the longer term affects of the cold on the resident population and I would expect to see increasing numbers of dead animals in the next few months. I think it’s very significant that the telemetry tracking was stopped in early February as I believe a significant number of “tagged” Burmese pythons will succumb to respiratory infections weeks and months from now. I think it’s just one more “slanted” fact that will continue the bias we’ve seen in the publishing of more “scientific” papers!!

Burke Reptiles

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Tom Burke
www.BurkeReptiles.com

...that I'm really glad you brought up is the fact that Florida took steps to correct this with the ROC permitting/microchipping system.
Florida took action. All animals were to be in compliance by the deadline of July 1, 2008. They started pushing this ban legislation at the end of 08 or early 09. You can't expect to see results in less than 6 or 7 months! The new system was never given a chance to work.
The funny part is that I don’t keep burms right now ( I have in the past), but all of the researching and looking at pics (I’ve been lurking on the burm forum for a few years now) just made me want to get back into them.
Thanks for the post, Tom.
Aaron
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

..."The funny part is that I don’t keep burms right now ( I have in the past), but all of the researching and looking at pics (I’ve been lurking on the burm forum for a few years now) just made me want to get back into them."

As much as I liked them I decided 15 years ago to get out of burms for something smaller. I hadn't planned to go back and would probably have to get a divorce to do so but if the ban passes I'm seriously considering it. Just seems like the right activist thing to do everything within the law to defeat the intention of any ban.

So if they have given up on the legislative avenue and go the rule change route will instate possession and transfers still be legal? How much warning would there be before something goes into effect? Maybe Kingsnake could donate a forum and database engine to start a survival plan signup for every morph of ever species banned to make sure we have a sustainable population in each state. Sure we might have to give the babies away at instate shows but it would be worth it. I got to believe the tide is turning and that shift in power might have closed the democratic door for the Restrictors and explain their new bureaucratic route. Even if the rule change goes through I would expect a chance to get it reversed in 3, 7, or 11 years. We would just need to work together to be sure we don’t loose anything permanently through the bad years.

Well, whatever happens, just let us know what to do. This is one "non-big python owner" that's behind you guys 100%!
Aaron
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

Yes Tom. It's all about money. Large Boids are just an easy take down. Consider how many people are afraid of and hate snakes in the first place. Then add the fear of the giant constrictors marching on Washington, and there you have it.
It's all one big lie. One huge prejudice already in place to make it that much easier to accomplish, that's all.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

HSUS is virtually an unlimited tax exempt slush fund responsible to no one, for the sole purpose of influencing legislation to meet its objectives.

Hypothetical conversation:

HSUS says: "Here is what we propose (banning snakes). This is why we propose it (snakes are bad). Here is how it will benefit you, your district and your constituents (economic development/benefits, cash cows, pork, carve outs, special projects, riders). You are on board with this proposal, aren't you Congressman _____?"

Congressman_____ says: "Why of course. You certainly have my support. Thank you for all your great work."

And that's how it's done. Oh yeah. Did I leave out the wink and the nod?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

This is a logical problem Tom. You are just looking at the problem from the perspective of what makes sense to someone considering all the facts. Those pushing this agenda are ONLY interested in doing whatever it takes to gain them their goal.

You have to realize that everything that makes sense is only a barrier to be hurdled. A fact to be denied. The objective is to shut down a portion of the pet trade. Period. This has nothing to do with the Everglades or any of the talking points they continue to use over and over again. This is all about the animal rights extremists and their willing accomplices in high places of government attempting to make this first step in outlawing all non-naive species. This is the line in the battle and here we will stop them and win.

The cold weather wreaking havoc on the Burmese Pythons in the Everglades is simply a monkey wrench in the process for them. It plays no part in their motivation to take our animals from us. We will see, in the not too distant future who are the street corner pawns of the HSUS and who are legitimate academics soon enough.
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Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

Yes, and HSUS, et al. has the deep pockets to encourage legislative allies as well as bureaucrats and institutional guys to their agenda.
It's an agenda of the self-righteous naturalist elite to squeeze out the layman, as their egocentric mentality screams out -- "We know what's best". Pure class warfare. Laymen are not worthy. Public not welcome.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

They will go for everyhting...including bearded dragons and leopard geckos!!!
We are weak without getting EVERYONE to realize that we are ALL threatened by what we are facing!!!

12 year old kids!!!!! They count!!!!!

and then.....

They are going after the BIRD KEEPERS!!!!!

HSUS does not think birds should be kept as pets, PERIOD!

SATAN

>>This is a logical problem Tom. You are just looking at the problem from the perspective of what makes sense to someone considering all the facts. Those pushing this agenda are ONLY interested in doing whatever it takes to gain them their goal.
>>
>>You have to realize that everything that makes sense is only a barrier to be hurdled. A fact to be denied. The objective is to shut down a portion of the pet trade. Period. This has nothing to do with the Everglades or any of the talking points they continue to use over and over again. This is all about the animal rights extremists and their willing accomplices in high places of government attempting to make this first step in outlawing all non-naive species. This is the line in the battle and here we will stop them and win.
>>
>>The cold weather wreaking havoc on the Burmese Pythons in the Everglades is simply a monkey wrench in the process for them. It plays no part in their motivation to take our animals from us. We will see, in the not too distant future who are the street corner pawns of the HSUS and who are legitimate academics soon enough.
>>-----
>>Jeff Ronne Sr
>>The Boaphile
>>Director USARK
>>
>>Originator of Boaphile Plastics
>>The Boaphile Boa Site
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"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

The "what about feral cats and hogs" thing is a straw man. Hog and cat populations ARE being fought, but obviously there would be no point in banning their importation or transportation at this point.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

If what your saying is true the researchers have said there are tens of thousands of Burmese here also and they are also under attack. In your own words what's the use in baninng them then? What your saying about feral pigs and feral cats is also true of feral Pythons. Why are they different then Amazon Doc?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>If what your saying is true the researchers have said there are tens of thousands of Burmese here also and they are also under attack. In your own words what's the use in baninng them then? What your saying about feral pigs and feral cats is also true of feral Pythons. Why are they different then Amazon Doc?

I'm not sure there IS a point in banning them...but "tens of thousands" is far different than tens of millions. The national population of feral hogs is estimated to be around 4 MILLION animals, and the national population of feral cats is estimated at around **70** million. Furthermore, both hogs and cats reproduce at a much higher rate than snakes -- so the feral populations can replenish themselves very quickly, with or without hunting.

If there are "only" tens of thousands of feral pythons out there right now, then they should be much easier to control than either hogs or cats. It seems sensible to me to fight the problem BEFORE it has the chance to get as bad as the other species.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>>>If what your saying is true the researchers have said there are tens of thousands of Burmese here also and they are also under attack. In your own words what's the use in baninng them then? What your saying about feral pigs and feral cats is also true of feral Pythons. Why are they different then Amazon Doc?
>>
>>I'm not sure there IS a point in banning them...but "tens of thousands" is far different than tens of millions. The national population of feral hogs is estimated to be around 4 MILLION animals, and the national population of feral cats is estimated at around **70** million. Furthermore, both hogs and cats reproduce at a much higher rate than snakes -- so the feral populations can replenish themselves very quickly, with or without hunting.
>>
>>If there are "only" tens of thousands of feral pythons out there right now, then they should be much easier to control than either hogs or cats. It seems sensible to me to fight the problem BEFORE it has the chance to get as bad as the other species.

Your logic is flawed. Comparing absolute numbers doesn't mean anything when you're comparing one animal that can live from the southern tip of Florida to the northern tip of Washington state to pythons that can only live in southern Florida. And the fact that they reproduce slowly means they are LESS of a problem than cats/pigs, does it not?

Regarding "controlling" the burms, please explain how any of the proposed legislation will have any effect on the burms in the Everglades? Please explain HOW they will be "controlled" with or without any laws. Please explain why you even believe we humans can "control" the burm population. We don't exactly have a good track record of controlling, much less eradicating, any species.

Actually, maybe you can define the "problem" first. Show some proof that the burms have an overall negative effect on the Everglades ecosystem.

>>Your logic is flawed. Comparing absolute numbers doesn't mean anything when you're comparing one animal that can live from the southern tip of Florida to the northern tip of Washington state to pythons that can only live in southern Florida. And the fact that they reproduce slowly means they are LESS of a problem than cats/pigs, does it not?

Once again, you are assuming that I'm making an argument that I'm not actually making. I'm not arguing in support of the ban. I'm simply pointing out that the "what about cats and hogs" argument is a straw man.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You "argue" like a Creationist feebly attempting to shoot down the theory of evolution. You illogically nitpick at peripheral irrelevancies, while at the same time providing little to nothing to support your claims, and you BLATANTLY avoid answering pointed questions about your claims

YOU said: "If there are 'only' tens of thousands of feral pythons out there right now, then they should be much easier to control
than either hogs or cats. It seems sensible to me to fight the problem BEFORE it has the chance to get as bad as the
other species."

I'll put that in capital letters now so you don't miss it:
"THEY SHOULD BE MUCH EASIER TO CONTROL THAN EITHER HOGS OR CATS."
"...FIGHT THE PROBLEM..."

Now address my questions/requests or retract you statements. Here are the questions/requests once more:

1) Regarding "controlling" the burms, please explain how any of the proposed legislation will have any effect on the burms
in the Everglades?

2) Please explain HOW they will be "controlled" with or without any laws.

3)Please explain why you even believe we humans can "control" the burm population. We don't exactly have a good track record of controlling, much less eradicating,
any species.

4) Actually, maybe you can define the "problem" first. Show some proof that the burms have an overall negative effect on the
Everglades ecosystem. So far you have provided a citation, and that was a report the concluded HUMANS were the cause of the decline of the wood rat.

>>You "argue" like a Creationist feebly attempting to shoot down the theory of evolution.

Tsk. Ad hominem attacks are a sign of weakness.....

>>You illogically nitpick at peripheral irrelevancies, while at the same time providing little to nothing to support your claims

LOL!!

I'm the only one here (in this particular thread) who actually HAS offered data to back up claims.

>>and you BLATANTLY avoid answering pointed questions about your claims

I blatantly avoid answering questions about claims I haven't made. It's odd, but I feel no responsibility for defending someone else's claim.

>>I'll put that in capital letters now so you don't miss it:
>>"THEY SHOULD BE MUCH EASIER TO CONTROL THAN EITHER HOGS OR CATS."
>>"...FIGHT THE PROBLEM..."
>>
>>Now address my questions/requests or retract you statements. Here are the questions/requests once more:
>>
>>1) Regarding "controlling" the burms, please explain how any of the proposed legislation will have any effect on the burms
>>in the Everglades?

Sigh. I don't know if the proposed legislation WILL have any effect on the burms in the Everglades. As I keep trying to explain to you, I haven't claimed that it WILL. Try to actually READ what I write this time, okay? Don't just copy it in large type -- try to actually understand the words.

Let's see if I can break this down into smaller bits for ya:

1. large pythons are reproducing in the Everglades
2. these large pythons are not nearly as numerous as feral cats or feral hogs
3. these large pythons don't reproduce nearly as quickly as feral cats or feral hogs
4. incidentally, the large pythons also don't move nearly as quickly as feral cats or feral hogs
5. also, from a different part of this thread, the legal impediments to population control (legal definitions of hogs and cats, existing laws, etc.) are much less onerous for pythons than for feral cats or feral hogs
6. therefore, it should be much easier to control the feral python population than the feral cat or feral hog populations.

Notice that NOWHERE in that statement did I make any claim about the proposed ban being the ideal method of control.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I refuse to be forced into defending a claim that I haven't made.

>>2) Please explain HOW they will be "controlled" with or without any laws.

General methods of population control for various invasive species often include hunting, trapping, poisoning, legal prohibitions against release, spaying/neutering or other methods of sterilization, habitat modification, and so on. I don't know what will prove to be the best method in this specific case.

>>3)Please explain why you even believe we humans can "control" the burm population. We don't exactly have a good track record of controlling, much less eradicating,
>>any species.

I don't know if we can. Again, please actually READ what I write. I said that it should be *easier* to control pythons than cats or hogs. That doesn't mean that we will be 100% successful with ANY of those species.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Just an FYI it is illegal to transport live wild hogs without a permit in florida.
Rob

>>Just an FYI it is illegal to transport live wild hogs without a permit in florida.
>>Rob

It's usually illegal to transport most wild animals without a permit, whatever state you're in. But that's an interesting point, sort of...it's already illegal to transport most wild animals, so it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to add the pythons to that list.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Hogs are not native so they are not classified as wildlife they are classified as livestock. last year they they passed a no transport law without a permit because of deseases they carry and so people don't "stock" there land to hunt.
Rob

>>Hogs are not native so they are not classified as wildlife they are classified as livestock. last year they they passed a no transport law without a permit because of deseases they carry and so people don't "stock" there land to hunt.
>>Rob

But the principle still applies. Transportation of many animals is already restricted. Why should it necessarily be such a big deal to add another?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The wild hog thing is about spread of desease. If they did that for pythons you would be breaking the law taking it to the vet or moving from one house to another without a transport permit and what is the point of a transport law? If someone is going to break the law to take it out to the glades and let it go are they going to wory about a permit to transport it? The compairison to cats and dogs and hogs is valid because they are a MUCH bigger problem and they realy are not doing anything about it. When is the last time you heard someone calling for an extermination of all the wild cats and dogs? With hogs you have to kill 9 out of erery 10 born to keep the population from growing and are they trying to kill them all? NO they just encourage hunters to hunt them.
Rob

>>The compairison to cats and dogs and hogs is valid because they are a MUCH bigger problem and they realy are not doing anything about it.

Of COURSE "they" are doing things about cats and hogs. I can point you towards some of the control programs that are already in place if you really want to research them. But banning the importation of cats and/or hogs, or banning their interstate transport, would have no effect on the problem at this point. It's much too late for that, in their case.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Go ahead and point out any effective and realistic conrol program for either of them.
How would stopping interstate transport of berms help the current situation?
Rob

>>Go ahead and point out any effective and realistic conrol program for either of them.

Now you're putting on more conditions. Your original claim was that "they" are "not doing anything about it". I assure you, "they" are doing things about cats and hogs. Whether or not those things are "effective" or "realistic" is a long and complicated question to answer, and not really on topic for this forum.

For many links on feral cat control efforts in FL, look here:
http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&q=feral cat control FL&btnG=Google Search

You can access a recent research paper on the issue of feral cat control, written at the U of FL, here:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WJC-4PTF9D9-1&_user=10&_coverDate=08/31/2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1211151685&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=8f455d19c13407767a5313be39179f6f

A brochure with specific FL Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission recommendations in regards to feral cats can be found here:
http://www.fwc.state.fl.us/docs/WildlifeHabitats/feral_cats.pdf

Information regarding general hog control and control specifically in FL can be found at locations such as these:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/uw221
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1687&context=icwdm_usdanwrc
http://mdc.mo.gov/17500

>>How would stopping interstate transport of berms help the current situation?
>>Rob
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I forgot to answer your other question:

>>How would stopping interstate transport of berms help the current situation?
>>Rob

I don't know that it would!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I believe you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You are arguing technicalites. Technicly "something" is being done.
Well none of your links were for control "programs" it was all reports on how bad cats and hogs are for the environment and and what should be done but it is not pc to do it.
Now "technicly" a few critter control places who remove a few cats when people complain about them and some shelter who spay a few here and there is doing "something" about it and encouraging hunters to hunt hogs is is doing "something" but in reality "Nothing" is being done!!
But the snakes who are so restricted in there range and who do little damage to an already damaged environment get the wrath of god raining down on them.

Its funny fwc says we need to find and kill all the feral cats because of the damage they do but people love cats so we can't do that.
Rob

>>
>>
>>I believe you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. You are arguing technicalites. Technicly "something" is being done.
>>Well none of your links were for control "programs" it was all reports on how bad cats and hogs are for the environment and and what should be done but it is not pc to do it.
>>Now "technicly" a few critter control places who remove a few cats when people complain about them and some shelter who spay a few here and there is doing "something" about it and encouraging hunters to hunt hogs is is doing "something" but in reality "Nothing" is being done!!

Sorry, but things ARE being done whether you choose to acknowledge them or not. Unfortunately, the situations with hogs and cats ARE very different from the situation with pythons, so different actions are needed. That's just reality.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Ok, I'll keep playing this game. Explain how are they different?

>>Ok, I'll keep playing this game. Explain how are they different?

I've already mentioned at least one of the differences -- specifically, the numbers involved. There are millions of feral hogs and cats in this country already, vs. 10,000 or so feral pythons. There wouldn't be any use in banning importation or transportation of cats or hogs -- they're already there.

Another difference is the reproduction rate. Both cats and hogs reproduce more quickly than pythons. And yes, that does mean that cats and hogs may be more in danger of over-populating an area than pythons -- but it also means that control measures such as import bans followed by hunting/trapping are more likely to be successful for pythons than for cats or hogs.

Let's see....there's many many other differences...I dunno which ones to mention. Oh, here's one: hogs are already classified as "livestock", so wildlife officials have no authority to do anything with the feral hogs on private property. Similarly, cats are already classified as "domesticated", so there are legal restrictions on what officials can do with THEM when they're on private property. There's a lot more legal restrictions on what can be done.

That should get ya started!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

why do you need an import ban to start hunting and trapping?
wildlif official had no authority to do anything about pythons that is why they changed the law so now they do. so they could just change the laws for hogs and cats and then they wold have the authority.
So because the problem is to large we should ignore it?
Rob

>>why do you need an import ban to start hunting and trapping?

You don't....but it's kinda self-defeating if you're continually restocking the animals you're trying to get rid of.

>>wildlif official had no authority to do anything about pythons that is why they changed the law so now they do. so they could just change the laws for hogs and cats and then they wold have the authority.

HA!! Can you even IMAGINE trying to get hogs redefined as non-livestock?? Or trying to get cats redefined as non-domesticated??

>>So because the problem is to large we should ignore it?
>>Rob

Noooooo......

The cat and hog problems are so large and so different than the python problem, so we should acknowledge the reality that different solutions are needed......
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You don't....but it's kinda self-defeating if you're continually restocking the animals you're trying to get rid of.

Do you have any evidence thay "restocking" is taking place or is that just an assumption?

HA!! Can you even IMAGINE trying to get hogs redefined as non-livestock?? Or trying to get cats redefined as non-domesticated??

Wild hogs are already treated legaly different than domestic hogs in florida and why do they need to be redefined, just pass a law if they are not in your house they a feral and kill them. its ok if its a snake.

The cat and hog problems are so large and so different than the python problem, so we should acknowledge the reality that different solutions are needed......

The only solution is simple and exactly the same the only way to get efectively rid of them is to kill them all.

I guarentee if you ignor all 3 problems the pythons will always be an insignicant problem for the country.
Rob

>>You don't....but it's kinda self-defeating if you're continually restocking the animals you're trying to get rid of.
>>
>>Do you have any evidence thay "restocking" is taking place or is that just an assumption?

It's simple logic. If you keep importing more, more are going to be released -- whether from future hurricanes or future pet releases, or future pythons crawling through pet store walls (I saw a mention of that one in a post someone else made the other day), or whatever.

>>HA!! Can you even IMAGINE trying to get hogs redefined as non-livestock?? Or trying to get cats redefined as non-domesticated??
>>
>>Wild hogs are already treated legaly different than domestic hogs in florida

Not when they're on private property.

>>and why do they need to be redefined, just pass a law if they are not in your house they a feral and kill them.

Good luck with that. When's the last time you saw any hog being kept in a person's house?? LOL!

>>The cat and hog problems are so large and so different than the python problem, so we should acknowledge the reality that different solutions are needed......
>>
>>The only solution is simple and exactly the same the only way to get efectively rid of them is to kill them all.

Lord, this is getting old....cmon, ya gotta look at REALITY -- not just what you WANT. It is not POSSIBLE to get rid of all the cats or all the hogs. It is never going to happen, no matter how hard anyone tries. OTOH, we do still have at least some chance of getting rid of the pythons.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I can see once we are starting to use simple logic for our oppinions we are not going anywhere.
I did not know this was about reality the reality is people love furry cute animals and most hate snakes and people only want to feel good and do what is easiest to make them feel that way even if it does NOTHING (ok little)to stop the problem.
Rob

The Everglades Wilderness Area is about 4,000 square miles. THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF THE PYTHONS IS TO CLEAR AND PAVE IT. Talk about a ridiculous statement. Before you get confused ENP is ONLY part of the whole area which is MUCH larger. The Park is about 1.5 million acres just unto itself....The Pythons are NOT much easier to get rid of...I'm talking to Amazon Doc..
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>The Everglades Wilderness Area is about 4,000 square miles. THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF THE PYTHONS IS TO CLEAR AND PAVE IT. Talk about a ridiculous statement.

Yet, somehow, Cychlura seems to expect us to kill all the cats and hogs....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'm talking to you Amazon Doc about your statement it's easier to get rid of the Pythons...It's NOT easier and in fact they are a permanent x on the field guide...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>I'm talking to you Amazon Doc about your statement it's easier to get rid of the Pythons...It's NOT easier and in fact they are a permanent x on the field guide...

But that's not what I actually said. What I said was this: "It is not POSSIBLE to get rid of all the cats or all the hogs. It is never going to happen, no matter how hard anyone tries. OTOH, we do still have at least some chance of getting rid of the pythons."

I didn't say that we COULD get rid of them -- just that we have a better *chance* of getting rid of them than of getting rid of cats and hogs.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

why would you justify spending money to solve an unsolvable problem?
-----
Todd Hughes

>>why would you justify spending money to solve an unsolvable problem?
>>-----
>>Todd Hughes

I'm not justifying spending money for ANY problem, solvable or un. I don't think I've even *mentioned* money in this whole discussion.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

so...your stance is unofficially, I have no stance?
-----
Todd Hughes

>>so...your stance is unofficially, I have no stance?

That's basically what I've been telling people here for weeks now...

Or, I suppose it might be more precise to say that I lean in several different directions, depending on which part of the "big picture" you're looking at. I don't know what the best solution would be over all, I don't know whether there IS a good solution over all, and I don't pretend to know!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Actually you said we have a chance to get rid of the Pythons. No sir we do not have a chance unless Mother Nature does it for us....That is directed to you Amazon Doc...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yet, somehow, Cychlura seems to expect us to kill all the cats and hogs....
-----
which would be easier to bag literal tons of than cryptic pythons, thus reducing the threats.
-----
Todd Hughes

if cats were outlawed, they would receive the same treatment as other non natives, they could/would be eradicated except by outlaws. damn cat hoarders...
-----
Todd Hughes

>>if cats were outlawed, they would receive the same treatment as other non natives

Good luck with that!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Their damn sure doing NOTHING about the 1,000 plus feral cats living on a $100,000 endowment by the folks residing at the OCEAN REEF CLUB on North Key Largo. MANY papers have been published by the Univ. of Florida about how the cats are solely responsible for the demise of the Key Largo Wood Rat you hear so much about these days. Google that info and watch what comes up. NOTHING HAS OR IS BEING DONE AND SEVERAL PAPERS EXPLAIN WHY. This is NOT a straw man argument but simply a fact. Yhe reason I bring it up is one of the rats was found in the stomach of the 2 Pythons found on Key Largo. A big deal was made of that but the cats weren't mentioned. Why is that Amazon Doc? This is NOT a straw man rebuttal but a serious problem...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Cats ARE a serious problem, but it is a straw man to compare them to pythons. That would be like saying we should ban the importation of automobiles because they run over wood rats occasionally.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You lost me. Makes no sense.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>You lost me. Makes no sense.

That's right, it doesn't. It doesn't make sense to compare automobiles to pythons, and it doesn't make sense to compare cats to pythons either. The situations are too different.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I disagree with several things he's saying but I'm sick of responding. Basically I've stated my thoughts and comparison's primarily on the feral cat business but in particular the population at the OCEAN REEF CLUB. Basically he can think what he will and so will I hence the "We can agree to disagree"....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I never heard of the Ocean Reef Club til you mentioned em, but I did find this about them:

http://www.felineresistance.com/battlefields_02.shtml
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/15/State/Cat_fight_in_the_lap_.shtml

It looks like they ARE doing something about cats in the refuge close to the club, namely trapping them when they enter the refuge and reducing the club's cat population by 75%. That certainly doesn't sound like nothing...
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

It looks like they ARE doing something about cats in the refuge close to the club, namely trapping them when they enter the refuge and reducing the club's cat population by 75%. That certainly doesn't sound like nothing...

Dude you are quoting the guy who want the goveronment to leave the cats alone and runs the club. They reduced them 75% (an off the cuff percentage)from what to what now? it still sounds like there is a [bleep]load of cats there and if they eradicate them all they will let more go.
Its a bandaid on bullet wound to the chest.
Rob

>>Dude

I'm not a "dude", sorry.....

>>you are quoting the guy who want the goveronment to leave the cats alone and runs the club. They reduced them 75% (an off the cuff percentage)from what to what now?

Actually, those general numbers are cited in several different sources. Look em up if you want more confirmation. The original population on the club property was roughly 1500 or so, I think.

>>it still sounds like there is a [bleep]load of cats there and if they eradicate them all they will let more go.

Sure, there's still a lot there. But the claim was that "NOTHING" was being done -- "NOTHING" in capital letters, no less. Obviously, control measures ARE being taken. Whether or not those measures are adequate to solve the problem is an entirely different question.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I don't see where I said "NOTHING" about this particular circumstance.
Again you are hung up on technical speak.
"Something" is always being done but if it has little or no effect on the overall problem then nothing is really being done just lip service.
Rob

>>I don't see where I said "NOTHING" about this particular circumstance.

You didn't say it. Tom did.

>>Again you are hung up on technical speak.

ROFLMAO.

"Nothing" is not the same thing as "Something". That doesn't require "technical speak", just a simple recognition of reality.

>>"Something" is always being done but if it has little or no effect on the overall problem then nothing is really being done just lip service.

Wow, talk about "technical speak".....LOL!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>MANY papers have been published by the Univ. of Florida about how the cats are solely responsible for the demise of the Key Largo Wood Rat you hear so much about these days.

Actually, I did look up a paper, a sort of informational paper put out by the FWS....and here's what it said: "The decline in the woodrat’s range and apparent extirpation of this species from Key Largo south of the U.S. 1-C.R. 905 intersection has been generally attributed to land clearing followed by residential and commercial development (Brown 1978a, b; Hersh 1981). The primary threat to the Key Largo woodrat is habitat loss and fragmentation caused by increasing urbanization."

http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/images/pdflibrary/klwr.pdf
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

If any of you out there don't want to play the game with the Amazon Doc just search on line with these words ocean reef club wild feral cats. There are several papers I read that specifically stated the decline of the rat is due almost soley to the feral cats at the Ocean Reef Club. This resort is about 10 miles from my farm and I've been around it many times [gated resort so no entry] and have perused on line many newspaper articles, scientific papers, etc about this subject. Amazon Doc says he just heard about it and I suppose carefully picked the publications he quoted from. There is a FUND SET UP TO THE TUNE OF $100,000 ANNUALLY TO FEED AND PROVIDE VET. CARE FOR THE FERAL CATS. I believe the Veterinary Hospital is located in Brevard County. The amount of research done on this feral cat population is amazing. Several papers published by the Univ. of Florida call for an eradication program as there is a type of mouse and perhaps another rare critter or two they are exterminating as well. One paper states that BECAUSE THEIR CATS is likely the reason NO action has been taken. Another reason sited I believe in only 2 of the papers says that the occupants of the resort are very wealthy and well connected in the political arena. I have talked a few times to some of the maintenance folks when they were out front and have been told that even past Presidents of the United States have been in occupance on occasion. The ONLY reason I used the cat's there as a comparison is because one rat was found in the belly of a Python and a HUGE deal was made of it. In fact EVERY FILM OR NEWSPAPER STORY IS LIKELY TO QUOTE THE RAT AND PYTHON STORY BUT NOTHING IS EVER MENTIONED ABOUT THE CATS. Mr Amazon Doc, are you really a doc? If so are you an animal or human doc? You don't happen to be the vet in Brevard Couny that gets all the cat $$$ are you? Don't listen to the Amazon Doc who only learned about the cats tonight or me either for that matter. Do a search and make your own decisions and really see who is made out of straw with the "straw man" sillyness. Besides the Lion wanted courage, tin man wanted a heart, and what did the straw man [scarecrow] want?...It's not dangerous as there's NO lions and tigers and bears only scared mice, hungry cats, and American Crocodiles...LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>If any of you out there don't want to play the game with the Amazon Doc just search on line with these words ocean reef club wild feral cats. There are several papers I read that specifically stated the decline of the rat is due almost soley to the feral cats at the Ocean Reef Club.

Great. Then show them to us. So far, I'm the only one in this discussion who has actually provided citations for any of the claims being made.

>>There is a FUND SET UP TO THE TUNE OF $100,000 ANNUALLY TO FEED AND PROVIDE VET. CARE FOR THE FERAL CATS.

Right. Feed -- so they are less likely to prey on native species, and vet care -- including spaying and neutering, so they reproduce less. In fact the colony size was decreased by roughly 75%, and cats are trapped when they are in the refuge. Yet you claimed that "NOTHING" was being done to reduce predation.

>>Mr Amazon Doc, are you really a doc? If so are you an animal or human doc? You don't happen to be the vet in Brevard Couny that gets all the cat $$$ are you?

It's "Ms" Amazondoc, actually. And yes, I'm really a doc -- retired veterinarian. No, I never practiced in FL. In fact I did start out life in Miami, but I was only there til I was 6!

>>Don't listen to the Amazon Doc who only learned about the cats tonight or me either for that matter. Do a search and make your own decisions

Absolutely. Do the research for yourself. As I mentioned earlier, I'm the only one who has actually provided citations for any of the claims being made so far. If anyone can find other data to back up other claims, let's see it!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Since you mentioned the mice, here's a relevant snippet from another FWS paper about them --

"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) listed the Key Largo cotton mouse as endangered on 21 June, 1983, due to a substantial loss of habitat. "

"Habitat loss and fragmentation has caused the isolation of Key Largo cotton mouse populations. Tropical hardwood hammock fragments up to 3.9 ha (9.6 acres) in size remain on south Key Largo, but may no longer be able to support Key Largo cotton mice. These hammocks may be too small and isolated to support viable cotton mouse populations (Frank et al. 1997). "

http://www.fws.gov/verobeach/images/pdflibrary/Key_Largo_Cotton_ Mouse_Conservation_Guidelines.pdf
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Thank you for confirming what I've been saying, that human intervention is the problem, not the python.

And, I thank you for the long and lengthly tutorial on the talking points, mentality, debating skills, and strategy of those with the anti-python agenda.

Possibly just too clever for your own good. Darn it. Go ahead. Have the last word. I know you will. I agree. You are certainly not a Dude.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

"The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service) listed the Key Largo cotton mouse as endangered on 21 June, 1983, due to a substantial loss of habitat. "

"Habitat loss and fragmentation has caused the isolation of Key Largo cotton mouse populations. Tropical hardwood hammock fragments up to 3.9 ha (9.6 acres) in size remain on south Key Largo, but may no longer be able to support Key Largo cotton mice. These hammocks may be too small and isolated to support viable cotton mouse populations (Frank et al. 1997). "

Thanks once again for citing more credible documentation disproving the 'pythons bad" argument. Please continue to defend your position.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>Thanks once again for citing more credible documentation disproving the 'pythons bad" argument. Please continue to defend your position.

You're welcome. I'm the only one here who IS citing any credible documentation, so I'm happy to be of service.

Unfortunately, though, this doesn't mean anything about the burms. Nobody has claimed that the pythons **caused** the mice or rats to be endangered. In contrast, Tom did claim that the CATS caused it. In fact, they did not.

I'm sure the cats aren't helping the problem -- and if you'll read further into some of those citations I provided, you'll see that the FWS recommends controlling predator populations including dogs, raccoons, black rats, AND cats. But the claims that the cats were solely responsible, and that nothing is being done about the cats, are completely false.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Maybe you didn't claim on this thread that pythons were responsible for the decline in the Wood Rat, but it is one of the more common excuses trotted out by the "ban Python" folks.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

This statement

"Maybe you didn't claim on this thread that pythons were responsible for the decline in the Wood Rat, but it is one of the more common excuses trotted out by the "ban Python" folks."

Is not true. I suggest you pay attention more carefully to what people say. Every statement I have read attributes the decline of wood rats to habitat loss and fragmentation. The concern about predation by either feral cats or pythons is that it could additionally harm an already endangered species.

Please get your facts straight before criticizing others.

it is wrong to single out one species at the expense of hundreds of other species of mammals, plants, fish and reptiles that are currently already entrenched in the Everglades and doing far more damage. If they were really concerned about "cleaning" up the Everglades, the list would sooooo much longer. Snakes just make a far better "poster" child than a "feral kitten" for the Everglades National Park and the State of Florida to slip their hands into the Federal Government Pork Barrel!!! I consider this nation to be in a crisis with the economy, national security and the war in Iraq/Afganistan in the news everyday and it just seems criminal that our Politician's are taking time away from these serious issues to discuss pythons and boas!! It's amazing that whenever I turn on the radio all I seem to hear are reports of how bad the economy is and how we need to create jobs.........well, obviously it's all lip service as they all seem very willing to sacrifice us and put many of us out of business. The sad part is when all is said and done......it still won't work!!
Burke Reptiles

-----
Tom Burke
www.BurkeReptiles.com

np
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

You are right there are a lot more serious issues in this country right now than a bunch of snakes in the everglades. The unemployment rate here in Fl. is just ridiculous and the other problems you mentioned are of more concern also. The politicians are well aware of this, they also realize that they can't wave a "magic wand" anymore to make them go away. They know that the general public is fed up with their performance and ready to clean house. The snake ban is a desperate attempt to convince people that they are doing things so that they might actually hang on to their jobs.
It's the same the with the bill mr. constantine is pushing right now. There is a lot of inquiry here about the misappropriation of campaign funds within the fl. state republican party of which mr. constantine is a member. Between that and the growing animosity towards incumbents and there is bound to be alot of fall out in Nov.

I seem to be missing something...

Amazon.... why ban the crossing of state borders for a species that can barely survive in Florida? Why ban it from crossing into Georgia as an example? If these kind of laws get passed it might as well apply to things such as Ball Pythons!!!! It is NOT about size when we are talking injurious invasives!!!

SATAN
-----
"Satan™" is a registered trademark of NERD, Inc. Any copyright infringement is punishable by ETERNAL DAMNATION and some other terrible stuff.

>>I seem to be missing something...
>>
>>
>>Amazon.... why ban the crossing of state borders for a species that can barely survive in Florida?

I'm not arguing for the ban. I'm simpy pointing out one weakness in the argument against it. The "what about hogs and cats" argument is a straw man.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

SATAN,for some unknown reason this "straw man" thing is some type of auto-reply she uses as an answer for almost anything. Most of what our doctor friend says is NOT based on any actual real knowledge but rather a weak attempt to tear apart any statement piece by piece and to then argue about small parts of it out of context. In other words I don't even believe she has an agenda and certainly no direct knowledge about the subject. I think she's just bored...the only reason I still respond is she is used to always getting the last word in...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom
I believe you hit the nail on the head.
I thought that too and had some time so I wanted to explore it some more.
Rob

>>SATAN,for some unknown reason this "straw man" thing is some type of auto-reply she uses as an answer for almost anything. Most of what our doctor friend says is NOT based on any actual real knowledge but rather a weak attempt to tear apart any statement piece by piece and to then argue about small parts of it out of context.

Hey, I'm still waiting for any actual data to back up your claims...have ya got any this morning? Perhaps I just haven't come across it yet?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'm going to find the papers at some point today and try to provide a link but I'm not good at computers. I had someone else provide a link on my website MONTHS ago with one or 2 papers about the cats. I'm sorry your lonely but at least here you are getting some of the attention you crave. Finally you have at least someone paying you some attention. I'm happy for you...Thanks and I'll get back to you later,,,
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Thanks, I'd love to see these papers. I won't be holding my breath, but if they do actually show up I'll be quite interested.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters