Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Please post pics if you have. Would love to see em.
Thanks,
Mark

This is all I have. I know Scott has some much nicer ones.

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

08 female. thanks, scott erycine1@aol.com

Here are a few pics, 2 of them are of my female, and the other one is a group shot of my female and 2 males

Chrissy

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1.0 Ball Python-Siegfried
1.0 BRB-Pedro
1.0 Blair's Phase GrayBanded Kingsnake-Elvis
0.1 Paradox Albino Sand Boa-Cleo
2.2 Dodoma's
0.1 pug mix

Oops! The first pic is of my female, and the other 2 are group shots of the female with 2 0f my males.

Chrissy
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1.0 Ball Python-Siegfried
1.0 BRB-Pedro
1.0 Blair's Phase GrayBanded Kingsnake-Elvis
0.1 Paradox Albino Sand Boa-Cleo
2.2 Dodoma's
0.1 pug mix

Thanks everyone who posted, there all real nice snakes. I wish I'd see more of these for sale.
Mark

Sorry for the poor quality pics. Dodoma's in the first two pics are currently breeding. They have produced 3 litters since I got them in 2002. They were imported in 1999. Hopefully I will have some babies available this year. The third pic is the female gravid from a previous year. The last two pics are some of their offspring.

I have another male that was also imported in 1999. He is currently working on a snow paradox female.

SerpentsPlus, those are some nice looking snakes. A couple of them are sparsely patterned on the last bit of their body.... Makes me wonder if the "Splash" kenyans have some dodoma in them.

Thanks for sharing!
Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

I cant say for sure, but I think the "splash" kenyans maybe more likely a vanishing pattern mutation mixed with the anery and/or albino mutations. I have a lot of plans for this girl. Also have a male on the way. first two pics of the female. last pic of the male.

That is a great looking dodoma, are you line breeding for patternless?

Below, Anery and Albino Splash. Scott has some great snow splashes I'm sure he will post.

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

Darned control button....

Anery splash.

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

Thanks, but the last set of photos I posted are not Dodomas. They are a new genetic mutation. Not much has been done with them yet but it appears to be a co-dom mutation (from my understanding, this would be the first known co-dom mutation in kenyans). No one has ever bred two of them together, so the possibility of a super is unknown. I plan to find out in a few years. As for the Dodomas, I have 3 out of the first and only batch imported into the US back in 1995 (I believe there were 9 total, not including the original albino paradox that was sent with them). I used to have a digital copy of the importation documentation but lost it when my hard drive crashed in 2005. I cannot say where or who has the others (I think VPI has at least one). I have seen many ads for Dodomas over the years, and several of them are obviously, either not pure or not even Dodomas at all. Also, people seem to throw the term Flame Race around very loosely.

I also wanted to add, that there is quite a bit of confusion out there on Dodomas. I think VPI describes them the best. "well-separated, rounded blotches of irregular sizes interspersed on the orange lateral and dorsal surfaces". Emphasis on the part in bold.

Which brings us back to the real question....is 'Dodoma' a locality or a type of pattern on a snake......cause I've seen docs on some dodomas that sure as heck look like normals to me........

Flame is a difficult description of a sand boa for me to grasp. How would you describe them? I'v heard 'clean with a more extreme color (not necessarily orange)'

Below is a picture of some 'super flames' so they were called....

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

dodoma is a locality.

Then not all 'dodomas' will be reduced pattern?
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

Now we are getting into the difficult questions. I'll start with the Dodoma question. I cant comment on the docs you are speaking of. But what I have gathered over the years, Dodoma east African sand boas are a locality. The only shipment of Dodomas were imported from Dodoma Tanzania. While "normal" east African sand boas were imported from, were else, Kenya. They are bordering countries, with hundreds of miles separating Dodoma from the Kenya border. They comprise the southernmost known population of this taxon. This population is isolated several hundred miles from other known Tanzania populations. The fact that they are a isolated population, points to a locality rather than a type of pattern. You could probably compare them to Surinam and Guyana BCC's. They are very similar in appearance, but they have subtle differences. This is most likely from hundreds of years of evolution. I would guess the only way to find this information out for sure would be to take a trip out there. Feel free to add your thoughts on this topic. Feel free to add your thoughts on this topic.

Now to your second question. I was out of the sand boa loop for three years. During this time is when the "flame" seemed to have popped up on the market. As neonates they appear to be "normal" with cleaner looking orange. From pictures that I have seen, they appear to maintain that "cleaner" look into adult hood. This observation is very similar to the Dodomas. Perhaps they have Dodoma influence. Or maybe they are a result of selective breeding. I cant say for sure. But my personal opinion is that they are mutts, and simply have Dodoma blood. Again, feel free to add your opinion.

I think you've nailed it on the head.

I think the Flame name came about through some responsible breeders who didn't want to call them 'dodomas' because they knew they were not. However, they didn't want to call them normals because they again, were not.

I think the 'Super Flame' tracks more closely to the look of a dodoma with the reduced pattern on the face and splotchy irregular black patterning on the body. Whereas the Flame, simply are cleaner and hold their color longer like the dodoma.

Now if you can explain why a paradox snow bredd to a snow doesn't produce at least snows I may start calling you 'El Guru'.
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

I do not work with paradox but here is my take on it...

The reason a paradox snow breed to a normal snow doesn't produce at least some snows is because the gene (or lack there off) that causes the albinism trait is not the same in the two lines....

** Again I do not work with paradox individuals but this is my take on the interactions between the two lines...

Just my 2 cents,
Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Don't take a drink before reading this, I don't want you to blow it out your nose because the following question is so stupid....

So why wouldn't you get some anery's out of the litter then? I mean, an snow carries albino and anery genes, correct?

When you get done laughing, someone or all of you can pile on and tell me how misinformed I am.....I can take it.
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

No such thing as a stupid question (most of the time...).

You have me stumped there.... I was under the impression that you would get anerys that were het for both paradox albino and "normal" albino. Maybe the anery mutation is different as well...? Someone with some paradox breeding experience will need to step in now....

People have speculated that the "paradox" mutation is actually associated with the anery mutation, but it is difficult to see because of the coloring. Again, I do not work with paradoxs, so I am going off of what I have heard/read...

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Maybe Steve Perry or Vinny the mad scientist can help out?

I was under the impression breeding snow paradox to snow resulted in all normals, het everything. Maybe not.

...I expected, the old tried and true, 'there are no stupid questions, just stupid people,' you missed a golden opportunity, sir!

A couple of my sons paradox snows Mr. Steve Perry produced.

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

Ok, here we go. A paradox snow consists of two mutations, albino paradox and axanthic (commonly called anery). A snow also consists of two mutations, albino and axanthic. To my knowledge, there is only one strain of axanthic. So, breeding a snow to a snow paradox would result in the entire litter being axanthic het for albino and het albino paradox. I have never tried this nor do I have any interest in doing so. But this does raise another question. To make things a little simpler, lets say you breed an albino to an albino paradox to produce double hets. What would be the results of breeding the offspring together? We know that, statistically, out of 16 young, 9 will be possible het for both mutations, 3 will be visual albinos and 3 will be visual albino paradox. But what about that last one? The one that has both visual mutations? Will the black spots of the paradox be visible? Will they be faded? Will they be missing all together? Or will it look completely different than what anyone could of ever predicted? For all we know this could be the recipe for the first leucistic (though, I highly doubt it). I am not aware of anyone trying to breed double hets together. If anyone has any knowledge of this being done, please post.

I think Steve Perry has done just that. I'll shoot him an email and see if he'll jump in here. Scott Miller may also know, he breeds all stuff together to find out what happens, too.
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

I would love to hear from them on their findings

A couple of years ago I produced a litter of babies(actually a couple of litters) that had paradox albinos and paradox snows and a few albinos that looked a little different with no paradoxing. the second year, I decided to keep a couple of them. I held back a male and female that both looked quite a bit different from the rest. The male is a paradox and the female shows no signs of black at all. A good friend and reptile breeder has given me the idea that they both looked like Bell albinos but with pardoxing on the male. As they have grown they do not look like your typical Bell albino either. Last year I bred the female (no parasoxing) to a male albino and recieved all normal babies, so she must be a paradox right? I should know this year as she is breeding currently with an 07 male paradox albino. She looks very different from your average p. albino though, and she is very difficult to get a pic of that even closly resembles what she really looks like. The tan/cream background area is actually a greenish/blueish kinda color.lol hard to describe. Could it be a dbl homzygous albino? maybe but I dout it. I may be a hypo, albino. who knows!
This hypo thing has me scratching my head enough, I don't need any more projects to try and prove out!

the good news is that I saw my blond female and male locked up over the weekend.
I have had the "hypos" together as well as a "hypo" male paired up with a ghost female, but have seen nothing. I think I may be asking to much of the little male. He's still pretty young, we'll see.
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Steve Perry
North Idaho.

I am pretty sure people have produced double homozygous recessive animals (amelanistic x paradox amel)... I don't recall there being anything special about them....

-Chris
-----
Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Hey,

Actually, the post above got it right. Since there is only one strain of axanthic if you bred a snow to a paradox snow you will get anerys (axanthic) double het albino and paradox albino.

But, I dont know what happens if you have a double homozygous albino/paradox albino. You would think that it would just look like paradox albino, but since the gene to make pigment is nonfunctional in the albino (but functional in the paradox albino, thats why you have the pigmented spots) a double albino would probably just look like an albino without the spots even though it would technially also be a paradox albino. Maybe it would have some other give away to what it was. Now I am curious and want to make one!

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

I agree....

A paradox snow to a "normal" snow should produce 100% anery babies that are 100% het for paradox amel and "normal" amel

-Chris
-----
Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Chris is right. They are two different strains (sort of like Kahl and Sharp strain albinos in BCI's). Albino paradox is the only true albino gene in kenyans. There has never been an albino gene in kenyans until the Barkers obtained the first albino paradox in 1995 and there has not been one since. The "normal albino Kenyan" was never a kenyan to begin with. The way they made the albino kenyan is by breeding a kenyan to a wild-caught albino Egyptian sand boa. So the albino kenyan is NOT a true kenyan mutation. EVERY albino and snow kenyan in the pet trade is in fact a hybrid.

Oh boy....now the question of is there really a difference between 'egyptian' sand boas and 'kenyan' sand boas....this is like the government trying to fix social security.....

For simplicity sake, I've just chalked them all up to be east african sand boas....other than color (EG's tend to be yellow with more black?), what is the difference between the two?
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

LOL. They do have two different scientific names. However, the similarities are overwhelming. Perhaps they are the same species from different "locals" (like Dodomas and normals). This is a question I cant answer with full certainty.

I thought I had read they reclassified them to have the same name? Chris seems to be more on top of this scientific name stuff with the sand boas and Vinny wrote a paper recently about sand boas so maybe he knows?

Do you generally know what the differences are in their characteristics? Color alone surely isn't enough?
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
4.1 Rufescens
1.2 Albinos
0.5 Dodoma
2.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
3.4.10 Anery
0.1 Snow
2.2 Hopeful Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe 100% Het Anery
1.0 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
0.4 High Orange Tiger
2.2 High Orange
2.3 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
8.30 Rhode Island Reds
0.0.15 Tropical Fish
0.1 Moody Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

I do believe I read that somewhere as well. Can't recall where though.

Hey,

I probably am not much help, since I think species are at best like porn (you dont know it until you see it) or at worst like the ROUSs (I dont believe they exist)

At the moment the "Egyptian" and "Kenyan" sands are subspecies. But, there is no good genetic data to say how different they are. So it really is a judgement call. I for one, dont think they are different subspecies since there can be and likely is gene flow in the wild.

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Breeding an "Egyptian" to a "Kenyan" does not create a hybrid. These two sand boas are subspecies under the same species Eryx colubrinus loveridgei vs. Eryx colubrinus colubrinus. Breeding two subspecies together creates an intergrade. Whether or not these two subspecies are valid is debatable.......

-Chris
-----
Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Sorry. I agree. Hybrid was the wrong term to use.
-----
Lee Frey
Serpents Plus (aka. Lee Herps)
sandboa@hotmail.com

the flame/superflame terms are big on the west coast, i know breeder(s) out there that are breeding dodomas into "high orange" animals and calling teh resulting offspring flames, and when an animal pops up that looks like a dodoma tis labekled a "superflame" not sure how long its ben going on but its obviously caught on, been misused and abused, and confused alot of people. dodomas have been mixed with normals since as soon as they were brought in, even by teh people that brought them in. thats why it so hard to find true pure dodomas, which are a genetically isolated locale population, and i bet if genetically studied would warrant subspecific status. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A HET FOR DODOMA. unfortunately i dont think anyone thought teh mixing was important enough to be made mention of or even thought to be a bad idea in teh beginning hence why some people have what they call true dodomas but are not. the easiest way to tell a true dodoma is by teh head. its smaller, narrower, and has little to no pattern, definitely no eye stripes, and has a light spot in teh top center. usually the body pattern is reduced to separated thumbprint like spots, but i have produce pures with a bit heavier body patterning. egyptians, kenyans and rufescens were all reclassified by tokar as one species. gotta disagree though. egyptians are shorter, stouter, with smaller rounder heads, usually darker colored, have a bit of dark speckling on teh underside of teh tail, and on teh belly. rufescens are even more different, as anyone who keeps them can tell. as far as paradoxes, i would imagin snow to psnow would produce anerys het for both types, whereas albino to palbinio would produce normals het for both types. i think someone did this but cant remember who. i would want to waste time breeding animals on it. i have heard that anerys het for albino differ in color somewhat from anerys het for palbino, and have noticed som difference in the tones of my own animals het for both, but there is alot of variation with anerys anyway, as well as with albinos, snows, palbinos, and psnows. so it could just be a natural thing and not related to their het status. i dont think the splash trait has any dodoma in it, or "vanishing pattern" trait either. a couple years ago when i did some trading with mark bell at a show i traded a few dodoma babies to him and he had never seen them before. from what ive been able to gather the splash trait started to show up randomly a few years ago and the guy who does all teh sandboa breeding for them started holding them back and breeding them to each other. i do know of someone who produced some from bell line animals unexpectedly, and the numbers of teh litter seemed to indicate simple recessive inheritance. i think once a few more people breed them it will prove out that way. at one point i guess they had a ringer/pied animal, so im gonna guess it started from that if they did have it. hope some of this made sense. thanks, scott erycine1@aol.com

Scott and others...

" egyptians are shorter, stouter, with smaller rounder heads, usually darker colored, have a bit of dark speckling on teh underside of the tail, and on the belly. rufescens are even more different, as anyone who keeps them can tell."

I don't disagree, but this does not necessarily mean they are different species/subspecies. Due to the fact that we only receive a small portion of the genetic diversity actually present in Africa, basing relationships on morphology of captive animals will not hold up. You would need to sample from across their range and use both morphometrics and molecular data to determine the relationships between the Eryx colubrinus complex.

If anyone wants to fund the trip, I am willing to do the field/lab work.

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

agreed, but unfortunately its all we have to go on. it would be interesting to find out tokar's data for the reclassification. heck if it was safe and i could go i'd fund it. i'd love to wander around and find sandboas in the wild, not to mention all the other cool animals there.

Scott,

It is safe enough, but pretty expensive... If you want to fund it I am game!

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

i am way overdue for a real vacation.

lee, if you get a chance please email me. i have that same mutaion and bred it last year. i'd like to compare my results with whatever info you have been given. thanks scott erycine1@aol.com

NP