Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know many folks here don't understand why it would be worthwhile to spend all this time and space debating cats and hogs -- when, after all, this is a PYTHON forum.

Well, here's the simple one-word answer (followed by a long discussion): CREDIBILITY.

When you are trying to convince people of something -- in this case, convincing people that the python ban is "a bad thing" -- it's important to be CREDIBLE. If people believe that you are telling the truth about one thing (for instance, cats and hogs), then they are more likely to believe that you are telling the truth about another thing (for instance, the python ban).

OTOH -- if you get caught making one claim that is NOT true, then people will start to wonder what ELSE you might not be telling the truth about. In the long run, making a false claim about one small part of your arugment may end up losing supporters for your "big picture" argument.

So -- if you want people to support you, and to believe you when you say that the python ban is "a bad thing", then you need to be very very careful about the claims you make. Don't ever make a claim that you can't prove to be true. If you BELIEVE something, but you don't actually KNOW whether it's true or not, then admit that it is simply your OPINION. And if you get caught making a claim that turns out to be false, then don't waste everyone's time getting defensive and blustering about it. Simply admit to your mistake, correct it, and move on.

CREDIBILITY is the foundation of converting people to your cause. Work to BUILD that credibility. Don't squander it by saying things that aren't true.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Does that include publishing papers saying that Pythons could inhabit the southern third of the U.S.? We didn't write that but USGS did...Does that include lying by ommission while telling people a python ate a rat suggesting without saying the Pythons are responsible for the rats demise? We didn't do any of those things...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Does that include publishing papers saying that Pythons could inhabit the southern third of the U.S.? We didn't write that but USGS did...Does that include lying by ommission while telling people a python ate a rat suggesting without saying the Pythons are responsible for the rats demise? We didn't do any of those things...

First, Tom -- do you want to be as weak as your opponent, or do you want to be STRONGER than your opponent? You shouldn't use the mistakes of your opposition as an excuse for your own failings.

Second, that USGS paper was limited in its use of data, and overused by others -- but that doesn't mean what it actually said was wrong. It simply didn't take into account nearly as many considerations about habitat and so on as it could have.

Third, there is no lie in noting that pythons have been found with rats in their stomachs. The pythons certainly did cause the demise of the rats they ate.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'll be the first person to admit if I'm wrong. I perused a lot of this Ocean Reef cat crap about 2 years ago for a project I was involved in. I'll admit I didn't take the dates published into consideration nor did I take them into consideration in my post. The entire idea was to state that a lot of facts are stated by "scientist" who the general public believe without question. The thing is you knew that several papers, articles, etc varied on the number of cats yet you deliberately tried to make me look like a liar. I know somewhere I read that the CURRENT status of the rats was almost soley because of continued predation by the cats. I did read this but don't have anyway to know what the real truth is. All of this I researched about 2 years ago with assistance as I've already stated I'm NOT a computer guru. I'll try to find it when I can get some help. Even if I do you'll try to discredit it in some way I'm sure. I don't even have a dog in this fight as I don't keep, breed, and very seldon sell any herps listed other than boas. Actually I agree finally with some of what you say in this one post. I don't understand your position in this at all....You seem to take pleasure in trying to make other people look bad. This type of behaviour is perpetrated usually by someone with low self esteem. If I'm wrong on anything I said I'll admit it publicly just as I did when I predicted the coming freeze would kill the pythons. I publicly stated I was wrong and even published pics of the one live one I collected. It appears that many died but not all...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>I'll be the first person to admit if I'm wrong. I perused a lot of this Ocean Reef cat crap about 2 years ago for a project I was involved in. I'll admit I didn't take the dates published into consideration nor did I take them into consideration in my post. The entire idea was to state that a lot of facts are stated by "scientist" who the general public believe without question. The thing is you knew that several papers, articles, etc varied on the number of cats yet you deliberately tried to make me look like a liar.

Nope. I never accused you of lying. I did prove that you made several claims about those cats that aren't true. There's a difference. I have no doubt that you *believed* the claims you were making -- but they were still wrong.

I'll repeat: if you want people to take you seriously about the python ban, then you need to be very careful to not lose your credibility. And every time you say something that isn't true, your credibility gets chipped away. And THAT is why this whole discussion is important.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Are you suggesting ultimate truth will prevail (as regards the proposed python ban--beyond that we could all have fun trying to define truth, Truth, what I meant by "ultimate truth", and what is meant by prevail)? I am not suggesting anyone has deliberately or unintentionally misled anyone, mind you.

What gives you such confidence? I am not asking out of anything other than curiosity.

>>Are you suggesting ultimate truth will prevail (as regards the proposed python ban--beyond that we could all have fun trying to define truth, Truth, what I meant by "ultimate truth", and what is meant by prevail)? I am not suggesting anyone has deliberately or unintentionally misled anyone, mind you.

Nooooooo.......

I am suggesting that when one goes into battle one should be well armed. And credibility is an important part of one's armament.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc,

Tom is plenty credible. Credibility comes from much more than being a smart a**. So maybe you read peer reviewed articles and regurgitate the facts stated therein, but that tells us little about your about your personal character and insight. It is amusing that you are pointing out any small error that someone may have stated, but I don't see much evidence that you have a grasp of the big picture at hand. The debate is really about whether the government employees and interest groups are approaching ecological management using "best practice". It seems quite evident to me that the recent attacks on the 9 species of large constrictors may be clouding the insight of those paid by our tax money. As Tom was clearly trying to state, if they want to regulate "injurious species" they might be best advised to increase their attention on the more prominent species such as "Felis silvestris catus". His statement is credible, as is Tom.

You must still be wet behind the ears
-----
steve

>>amazondoc,
>>
>>Tom is plenty credible.

Tom may be credible to YOU -- but you are not the important audience here. When Tom makes claims here, he is "preaching to the choir".

The important thing is whether Tom is credible to people who do not already agree with him. And if he gets caught making false claims like he did here, his credibility could suffer a serious blow.

And incidentally -- my original comments about the hogs-and-cats argument were directed to Tom Burke, not Tom Crutchfield. Then Tom C. jumped in and started making his false claims. So Tom C. has only himself to blame if his feelings got hurt from being caught out.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'm not the important audience here? Aww, u hewt me feelings
Could you point out my pour spelwing? I want to feel specal like Tom too.

Actually, everyone is an important audience....shouldn't you have read that somewhere?
-----
steve

>>I'm not the important audience here? Aww, u hewt me feelings
>>Could you point out my pour spelwing? I want to feel specal like Tom too.
>>
>>Actually, everyone is an important audience....shouldn't you have read that somewhere?

Sigh....you are not the important audience in terms of Tom convincing people that the python ban is a bad thing. You are already convinced. Therefore, it is not important whether or not Tom is credible to YOU. Credibility is most important for the people you are still trying to convince.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Tom has more credibility then you, your momma, your daddy, and your future generations combined. Get real.

>>Tom has more credibility then you, your momma, your daddy, and your future generations combined. Get real.

Yeah, yeah, and your momma wears army boots.....

-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You flatter yourself if you think you can hurt my feelings. My skin is thick and I've met lots of people like you. Anyway it's late and you should go AND RESUE MORE DOBERMANS. I'm considering breeding some white Dobermans if I can find any...LOL..A PRIVATE JOKE IF MOST OF YOU DON'T GET IT. SHE DOES
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Awwwwwwww. You cared enough to look me up. That's so sweet.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Well I see you must be obsessed over me. Don't flatter yourself again by thinking I looked up who you are. Someone else did and sent it to me.Your name is Ione l. Smith and you live in E. Tenn according to my source. Your a former vegan who now eats fish. You come on lots of other forums and do this same sort of nitpick stuff you do here. Also you keep supposedly hundreds of chickens which you do not eat but I suppose their the best company you have. You are against the killing of senteint animals but lower forms of life are fine according to your twisted thought process. Also you run a Doberman rescue but hate the idea of breeding white Dobermans. You sound like a poster child for an HSUS member. Are you a member of the HSUS? I THINK YOUR AN OLDER WOMAN LIVING ALONE WHO IS LONELY [HENCE THE CHICKENS AND DOGS]. You suffer from low self esteem which is why you nitpick others and why you are alone in the first place. My guess is you jump at any chance for human contact even if it's in a negative way anf why you are on here picking my and everyone elses statements apart. The entire idea about the cat versus snakes you took completly out of context. I won't even go over the point I was trying to make because you were aware of it from the beginning. The info I was sent says you've been keeping snakes for about 2 years so I'm sure that now you are an expert at that as well as nitpicking. It took you that long because you had to come to terms with feeding them whole animals [doesn't go with the vegan mentality]. Does this about sum you up? Actually I feel sorry for you. The point about you being a lonely woman is purely conjecture but likely true based on your actions here. In any event don't flatter yourself on any of your thoughts concerning me. To me you're just another odd person I crossed paths with on this strange journey called life. Since you are not even a pleasant part you will be forgotten rather quickly. The main point you have made very clear to every man reading this is their glad you're not their wife or girlfriend and my guess is that most shudder at the thought of being stuck with a woman like you even for a very short time. This is why my conjecture of you being very lonely is likely true...Anyway Good Morning and I'm sure you can make this thread go on gor a day or two more if you really try. I didn't intend to make your identity public but since you think I looked you up I decided to do just that...Other's can now read how this type of response is NOT unusual for you as you do it a lot on other forums as well.
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't keep chickens, and if I ever did I would not allow them to run free range the way most people do. Why? Because I'm pretty sure they would prey on all the small snakes and lizards running around my property(are the skinks with the pink tails mole skinks or sand skinks?....I don't remember. I know that either way they have some sort of signifigance to the biologists with fwc.) . I'm pretty sure they do, but I don't have any scientific papers to back up my beliefs so I could be wrong either way I value my native wildlife so I prefer to get my chickens from factory farms via the supermarket and kfc.

>>Well I see you must be obsessed over me. Don't flatter yourself again by thinking I looked up who you are. Someone else did and sent it to me.Your name is Ione l. Smith and you live in E. Tenn according to my source. Your a former vegan who now eats fish.

LOL!!

You've gotten two things wrong already. Pretty much par for your course on credibility.

>>Are you a member of the HSUS?

Nooooo, sorry but I must burst that little bubble as well. In fact, years ago I spent quite a bit of time making PETA members angry.

>>The info I was sent says you've been keeping snakes for about 2 years so I'm sure that now you are an expert at that as well as nitpicking.

LOL again. Cmon, Tom, your credibility is already shot...try to not make it worse than you have to.

The fact is that I spent years caring for many kinds of herps, including a 9 foot python, when I was in high school and working at a local museum that had a large collection of animals -- there was no local zoo at the time, and they were a sort of zoo substitute for the area. I also did educational programs with those herps. Then, during and after vet school, I cared for various herps with medical problems both as part of my vet training and as part of my vet practice. I got my own first herps -- including various snakes, geckos, and swifts -- about 20 years ago.

Keep trying, Tom. You'll get to facts eventually!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

It really shows your ignorance when you present credentials like those and actually believe their impressive. I'm not even going to say more than that as you won't understand anyway...You really once kept a 9' Python...WOW
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>It really shows your ignorance when you present credentials like those and actually believe their impressive. I'm not even going to say more than that as you won't understand anyway...You really once kept a 9' Python...WOW

Tom, Tom, Tom....PLEASE try to stick with facts. That really seems to be hard for you, but TRY.

I NEVER said my herp credentials were impressive in any way. I was simply correcting more of your constant false claims.

And no, of course I'm not any kind of herp expert. Fortunately, I don't need to be a herp expert in order to correct you when you make so many obviously false statements.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"Third, there is no lie in noting that pythons have been found with rats in their stomachs. The pythons certainly did cause the demise of the rats they ate."

Not necessarily. It is my understanding Boids are opportunistic feeders and do occasionally feed on carrion. If this is true, then it would be possible for the rat in the Python's stomach to have been killed otherwise, say road kill, for instance. If the python fed on a freshly road killed rat, then the python would not have been responsible for the demise of the rat in it's stomach.
In that case your statement quoted above would be an assumption on your part, a conclusion not supported by facts. That is, unless you saw the python kill the rat in question.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>In that case your statement quoted above would be an assumption on your part, a conclusion not supported by facts. That is, unless you saw the python kill the rat in question.

Ha!

Okay, I will learn from my mistake and rephrase:

"it is **most likely** that the python did cause the demise of the rats in its stomach".

If anyone cared to do good necropsies on those rats, they might be able to confirm the exact causes of death.....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I may be a bit biased here, as I've known Tom C. for about 30 years, on and off. He's done more than most people on these boards (all the reptile boards), and his opinion is usually spot on. To be picked out for one mistake, or error of omission is not right, nor fair. If we want to continue playing word games, the whole point is lost. I would wager that the feral cat is the biggest killer of songbirds (and possibly the infamous Wood rat) that there is, but try telling that to the people who let their cats run free because "they like it outside".

Lets not shoot the messenger, especially when he DOES have a lot to say.

>>I may be a bit biased here, as I've known Tom C. for about 30 years, on and off. He's done more than most people on these boards (all the reptile boards), and his opinion is usually spot on. To be picked out for one mistake, or error of omission is not right, nor fair.

I didn't pick anyone out. In fact, when I entered this discussion I wasn't even addressing Tom C. He chose to jump in with *several* (not just one) false claims, and I corrected them. Nothing personal!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Again everything is out of context. I never said the python didn't eat a woodrat I meant because of statements made by python researchers the public is left thinking that pythons are the SOLE CAUSE OF THE PLIGHT OF THE RAT POPULATION being in decline and the cats are never mentioned in any [or most] statements. I also meant in terms of statements any BIG story like SALAZAR BEING WRAPPED IN A LG PYTHON SKIN NEW CONFERENCE, NELSON DOING THE SAME ETC. The python and rat story is repeated but if cats are mentioned at all it's in much smaller and less major media type of report. I gave the info to Playboy and Byron Stout of the News Press as well but can't remember if they used the cat info or not. I attempted to get Nigel to film the cats when we did the invasive Reptiles documentary but in the European version he verbably for about 5 seconds mentions them but didn't and wouldn't film anything about it. It's just not as sensational as giant snakes. This was my point but again you knew that and this post I'm answering was another taken out of context which is your m.o. anyway.
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, I believe the PBS show is on the air Sunday 21st night at 7, on Nature. You had a bit of input on that show, if memory serves me.

And you may as well stop replying to amazondoc. She's just baiting you. (and anyone else she doesn't agree with, evidently) It's just waste of time, imo.

I know and am afraid that the show I helped create is going to be nothing more than another python hype fiasco. The European version is NOT to bad as I have a copy Nigel sent me. Actually it's by far the best yet. He's pretty fair in his assumptions and clearly showed pythons being had for lunch by a plethora of native wildlife. Nigel is a personal friend and I'll reserve judgement until I see it. All in all Nigel is the real deal and is himself a good herper. In any event I had NO input on the editorial part of this one at all. I just arranged the behaviour shots and acted as a liason. I also gave him a lot of my opinions which were taken into consideration and many were used. I fully realize she is playing the devil's advocate and at the beginning got angry at her which was a mistake. She is a lonely woman without even a basic understanding of Herpetoculture. On another Forum here she's asking when or how to breed BRB'S which most beginnig novice keepers do routinely. A lot of folks sent me a lot of info about her and one suggest she might be connected to some Humane Society's which could be a good thing or she could be a closet PETA. I'm a member and think PETA [people eating tasty animals] is a great organization..I think her chickens likely pay more attention to her than most herpers will...LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>On another Forum here she's asking when or how to breed BRB'S which most beginnig novice keepers do routinely.

Phhhhht. I've actually had several interesting responses to that question (which was actually about seasonality in BRB breeding), from experienced BRB breeders.

I'm not ashamed of learning new things. Ya oughtta try it some time.....
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Sigh.....