Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I found this fairly long article from October on the Woodrat-it actually says more about cats than pythons!

http://janegoodallhopeforanimals.com/exclusive-content/section-3-never-giving-up/thane’s-field-notes/key-largo-woodrat-neotoma-floridana-smalli/
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Interesting stuff.

For folks who don't want to read the whole article, here's the most relevant portion. Notice the long list of predators that the wood rat has to deal with --

"Or what’s feeding on them, which turns out to be owls, native snakes, fire ants, and invasive, exotic pythons.

Once Clay and Ralph thought they had discovered a new nest of woodrats because the signal from the collar had not moved much over a three-day period. However, under closer inspection, they discovered that the woodrat had been eaten by an eight-foot python; its radio collar was still beeping from inside the snake’s stomach. Unfortunately, escaped and released exotic pets like snakes and lizards pose a tremendous threat to wildlife in southern Florida, very often outcompeting, or even consuming, native wildlife. In fact, worldwide, introduced species are among the top five causes of extinction. Case in point: Sadly, when a necropsy was performed on the python, they discovered that in addition to the collared woodrat, there were the remains of at least one other endangered Key Largo woodrat as well inside. Clay said, “If you think about it, the python was a double felon, killing two federally protected animals, not just one.”

Though the python attack made national news, Clay was quick to point out that it was only part of the woodrat’s troubles. “We have thousands of feral cats in the Keys,” he admitted, “and against them they hardly stand a chance. So we try to educate residents about controlling their housecats and work for ways to reduce the number of strays and to never drop pets in the refuge.”"
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

An interesting read. Thanks for the background.
My take from that is that the dumping of unwanted domestic animals is a far greater problem than the intentional or unintentional release of exotics.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>An interesting read. Thanks for the background.
>>My take from that is that the dumping of unwanted domestic animals is a far greater problem than the intentional or unintentional release of exotics.

I think all of those are problems.

My main "take" from it, though, is that it's just another proof against Tom's claim that articles about pythons and woodrats "never" mention cats.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Tom must be flattered to have someone sooooo infatuated with him! Maybe you could get his autograph someday, but I'm not sure he is as fond of you.
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steve

>>Tom must be flattered to have someone sooooo infatuated with him! Maybe you could get his autograph someday, but I'm not sure he is as fond of you.

I'm sure he isn't too fond of me. It's often upsetting to people when they get caught saying things that aren't true.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

And who's to say the telimetry collar/devise didn't impede/impair the rodents ability to avoid predation?
Just another thought.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>And who's to say the telimetry collar/devise didn't impede/impair the rodents ability to avoid predation?

I actually worry about that with radio telemetry of any small species being studied. Those devices have GOT to have some effect on survivability.

However, in this case, there were at least TWO woodrats in that snake's gut. Only one of em had the collar.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Those devices have GOT to have some effect on survivability.

Ha -- of course I MEANT to say, it seems to *me* that those devices are *very likely* to have some effect on survivability.

LOL!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Would that be an error that would cause us to question your credibility?

>>Would that be an error that would cause us to question your credibility?

Not really, because I admitted to and corrected *my* error as soon as it was pointed out to me. Unlike other folks we all know....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Few people spay their cats around here thus they start out with a female or two which they feed in their back yard than after few yrs countless.

By Hemmingways old house in Keys its a cat paradise lol . Cats all over the neighborhood.

I like cats so dont get me wrong but find the python hysteria very selective and hypocritical .

Considering in last 2 days temps again dropped to low 50s at night and I found very thin ribs showing Knight anole dead (imagined very weak state due to this winter)I would think pythons if any left still dieing.

Though finally now it starts getting warmer

That they take the time to educate the residents about their cats (without regulations) and they try to pass federal legislation against us.

Now as far as the Doc's and Tom's argument goes this is my take. Tom made a slip of tounge and said cats are the only thing responsible for the rats decline and the Doc won't let that one statement go. Also Tom stated that nothing was being done on the Ocean Reef club property to eradicate the cats and this is a true statement whether Doc agrees with it or not. The cats are not being trapped on the club (only when they leave the clubs property) and what few animals are getting spayed or neutered has no real effect on the sustainability of the population as a whole. Furthermore none of the residents of the club have been willing to participate with erradication programs. A further note of interest is this, the HSUS and PETA have used the Ocean Reef club as a model of how people and animals can live in harmony if people would just let their animals run loose and not lock them in their house. (I know I will be asked to provide this information and I am looking for it at this time, I have alot of papers and articles on disc).

P.S. It has been shown many times that me and Tom don't see things eye to eye and I am in no way sticking up for Tom.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Actually, I can't remember seeing any other articles mentioning the cat as a problem. Anyone want to point me to one of those? A link, perhaps?

>>Actually, I can't remember seeing any other articles mentioning the cat as a problem. Anyone want to point me to one of those? A link, perhaps?

We've already provided links to two recent articles mentioning both cats and pythons in the same article...and the one I linked to was published just last week. If you want to see more, look em up yourself.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

She's talking about a newspaper article that very few people read and remember. The big stories on the televised news statements NEVER mention the cats. The fact that I used the word "never" was my fault and is true but the TRUTH is the cats are NEVER mentioned in the big ones people see and remember. In congress at the time of testimony none OF OUR ADVERSARIES mentioned the cats as an invasive problem but the python eating the rat was used to demonstrate how the pythons are wiping out all endangered species within the Park and other areas. Ron Rozar is the guy hired to look for Pythons on Key Largo. I believe [notice I said believe] that only the 2 original Pythons have ever been found there. One of those had eaten the rat that she says I denied happened. Actually there is no sound proof that the Pythons are even injurious in the first place as they haven't been here or at least haven't been studied long enough. As far as the other 8 species on the proposed list includes 2 species of Anaconda that have never been even imported into the U.S. and I personally have never even seen one. I believe that the Pythons will not endanger anything, populations of them will stabalize based on the available prey base and the weather, become a tourist attraction like alligators over time, and in time likely be protected by law. Before she says I declared this a factual notice I said I believe not it's true. If, in fact the Pythons have been here for much longer than Hurricane Andrew as some have said they seem to have had little if any impact on anything other than they eat a great variety of prey items. Additionally the young ones are a well documented food item for many native wildlife species as well. The good Doc has said we have a greater chance to eliminate the Pythons than we do pigs and cats. I know what she meant by that but in light of her nitpicking it is a fase statement that she may believe only because she knows little to nothing about it. The Everglades Wilderness Area [not just ENP] is about 4,000 square miles and the fact is there is NO chance for man to accomplish eradication of the Pythons so that statement is false. The whole area has very few roads and traveling in the Glades is rough on foot. At least one Python was caught by fisherman in extreme SW Florida by the Shark River. This is an area so remote it's only accessible by boat. I could go back as Jon and Josh have done and pick apart single statements or take her words out of context as I did regarding the pigs, cats, and Pythons in this post but I see no point in it. The brilliant scientist Dr. Rodda who co-authored the now famous Python Map couldn't even put a dent in the Boiga irregularis population on Guam which is heavily populated and only a few hundred square miles at best in size. The ban is based on the premise of getting rid of them and by banning them will prevent any new invasion. This info is for the Doc not you guys because I'm not sure she is even aware of the facts. None of us want to see nonnative animals released into our Parks. Florida has a bad track record not so much with invasives but rampant development. Tell your HSUS pals that until recently developers were actually allowed to buy land with Gopher Tortoises and make a deal with the state that allowed them to entomb the Gophers alive while buying and giving other land to the state. Then for a time they were allowed to trap the tortoises and release them elsewhere. Studies have shown that tortoises like many other herps released in a new area have a high mortality. In other words Florida's record shows that we have many more important conservation issues other than Python's to address yet the Pythons make the big news and we feel like we're being targeted because until recently they thought us an easy target...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>She's talking about a newspaper article that very few people read and remember. The big stories on the televised news statements NEVER mention the cats.

Ohhhhhhh, I see. Now that you've been proven wrong on your first claim, you're retreating and retrenching to "the BIG stories on the televised news". LOL!

Yeah -- it's a big conspiracy amongst all the TV news reporters, Tom.

>>Ron Rozar is the guy hired to look for Pythons on Key Largo. I believe [notice I said believe] that only the 2 original Pythons have ever been found there.

Right. I've got written proof to the contrary (see my post on "not just one python", but of course you'll stick with your belief. No surprise there. Don't let a few inconvenient facts get in the way of your convenient fantasy.

>> The good Doc has said we have a greater chance to eliminate the Pythons than we do pigs and cats. I know what she meant by that but in light of her nitpicking it is a fase statement that she may believe only because she knows little to nothing about it.

Nope.

I said it would be easier -- not that we would be successful.

For comparison: it would be easier for me to walk to Nashville than it would be for me to walk to Los Angeles. That is a true statement. But it doesn't mean that I ever WILL walk to Nashville OR to LA.

Similarly, it would be easier for us to control pythons in the glades than for us to control cats or hogs. That is also a true statement, and it also doesn't mean that we will actually ever achieve either goal.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

This is your statement below.

"Similarly, it would be easier for us to control pythons in the glades than for us to control cats or hogs. That is also a true statement, and it also doesn't mean that we will actually ever achieve either goal."

It is very clear to all of us that you are against us even though you have your want to be egg eating snakes. Instead of coming here and fighting the good people here, like Tom Crutchfield and others, why don't you spend time with your want to be egg eating snakes and cook them a nice omelet or make a cake with some duck eggs? You seem to have a large variety of fowl.

As for controling the animals in the Everglades, the Burms are the hardest to control. They are in places that a lot of the others can't get to and have much better camouflage and hideouts. Dogs and cats are usually in plain view. Dogs and cats can be shot from long distances as where the Burms can't. I will be more then happy to do my part in the restoration of the Everglades. I will shoot dogs, cats, and Burms if it will help the cause.

Now, being the self righteous that you are, you might say, how can you shoot dogs and cats. Well, the burms that are caught are destroyed, so it is only fair that the dogs and cats are destroyed too. After all, none of them belong there, would you agree?

I tell you what, I will make you a deal. You round up 500 people and I will round up 5 people, 1, being myself. Now lets all go to the Everglades, your group of 500 hunts the burms, and my group of 5, hunts the dogs and cats. If your group of 500 can remove all of the burms before my group of 5 can remove all the cats and dogs, I will take back everything that I have said about you, and I will Post openly that you are my hero. Keep in mind, all animals have to be destroyed, one way or another, fair enough?

And when it comes to shooting the dogs down there, I would not descriminate against any, so that means that if I saw a white Doberman, I would have to shoot it. I hope that is o.k. with you.
I will be completely unbiased in the whole operation. How about you?

If I were to come across the plant species pictured, what should I do? Should I let it live or spray it with Roundup?

You really should get a life.

wtf indeed...what are you on about with spraying native plants? I'm amused that you took the time to search out plant photos that I've posted on the net, but really.....what do they have to do with anything in the current discussion?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I was simply asking a question. I am not up on what is or isn't a native plant species in the Everglades. So in my hunt for dogs and cats, I could also rid the Everglades of non native plant life, if something didn't belong, and do two services at the same time. I am just trying to help.

>>I was simply asking a question. I am not up on what is or isn't a native plant species in the Everglades. So in my hunt for dogs and cats, I could also rid the Everglades of non native plant life, if something didn't belong, and do two services at the same time. I am just trying to help.

Yeah.......right........LOL!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Now as far as the Doc's and Tom's argument goes this is my take. Tom made a slip of tounge and said cats are the only thing responsible for the rats decline

Tom made that and other "slips of the tongue" several times.....maybe he's got an especially slippery tongue??

>>Also Tom stated that nothing was being done on the Ocean Reef club property to eradicate the cats

That's not actually what he said. Tom said, and I quote:"Their damn sure doing NOTHING about the 1,000 plus feral cats". He also said "NO action has been taken". Hmmm....maybe it was that slippery tongue thing again?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
2.6 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

LOL, I've been reading your threats off and on and it's pretty funny how you just keep going, do you not have a life or something? What Tom has said about the 1000 feral cats it's quite obvious to everyone that has read this thread that he meant to be referring to the cats in the Ocean Reef Club, yet you still feel like you have to pick it apart again and again. Get a life, or continue going on, it's quite entertaining.
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Zack Greens Reptiles

>>LOL, I've been reading your threats off and on and it's pretty funny how you just keep going, do you not have a life or something? What Tom has said about the 1000 feral cats it's quite obvious to everyone that has read this thread that he meant to be referring to the cats in the Ocean Reef Club, yet you still feel like you have to pick it apart again and again. Get a life, or continue going on, it's quite entertaining.

Thanks for your permission.

And yes, of course Tom was referring to the Ocean Reef cats. I don't personally care exactly how many cats are there, either. I'm just trying (pretty much fruitlessly) to get Tom to stick with facts instead of his convenient fantasies.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I think your whole point is not to be correct, but to make Tom appear wrong...by any means. It's becoming rather tiring at this point. And by doing so, you really make people take you less than seriously. But it's obvious by now to everyone that you don't care about that, you just want to take potshots at Tom.

A shame, actually. There's a good intellect there, it's just misdirected.

>>I think your whole point is not to be correct, but to make Tom appear wrong...by any means. It's becoming rather tiring at this point. And by doing so, you really make people take you less than seriously. But it's obvious by now to everyone that you don't care about that, you just want to take potshots at Tom.
>>
>> A shame, actually. There's a good intellect there, it's just misdirected.

I'll repeat yet again -- my original posts in this discussion weren't even directed at Tom. He jumped in with all his false claims after the discussion had already gotten started. It's nothing personal, but if somebody starts spouting off with bold claims that simply aren't true, I am not going to hold back from correcting them.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Correcting is one thing, but this has gone way past that. Remember..."Obsession" is not just a perfume.

>>Correcting is one thing, but this has gone way past that. Remember..."Obsession" is not just a perfume.

Yeah, tell me about it....what IS it with that guy who has gotten himself obsessed with posting old pics that I put up on the net years ago??.....
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I know...you've had no part in perpetuating this "feud", eh?

The bottom line is that HUMANS are the ultimate cause of a large amount of extinction and near-extinctions, including the wood rat. I think AmazonDoc should set a good example and eradicate herself.

it wouldn't solve the ultimate problem, those genes are still floating around and this BS would still be spouted by someone else.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!