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not just one python eating woodrats

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 01:18 AM

I just came across this paper:

The Rat Race: Protecting the Key Largo Woodrat -- by Christina Alligood (PhD) and Anne Savage (PhD), published in August of 2008.

http://www.favorfloridakeys.com/f_rat_aug08_web.pdf

Here's a very interesting quote from that paper:

"Understanding the factors that influence the stability of Key Largo woodrat wild populations is of urgent concern. A major dis- covery was made in 2007 as the leader of our field team was track- ing a radio-collared Key Largo woodrat. She found that a Burmese python (Python molurus bivittatus), had eaten one of the collared Key Largo woodrats! This resulted in an intensive effort to examine the distribution of Burmese pythons (a non-native, invasive spe- cies on Key Largo) and their impact on the Key Largo woodrats. In 2007, several Burmese pythons were killed on the road near the ref- uges and all of these pythons had consumed at least one Key Largo woodrat. "

Did ya see that?? ALL of the pythons they found had eaten AT LEAST one woodrat each.

Let's not see any more claims about just one python supposedly eating just one rat, okay??

(Oh, and yes -- the paper mentions cats too!)
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Replies (27)

wstreps Feb 19, 2010 07:38 AM

You really need to do your homework better Doc.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.
Breeding wood rats

jscrick Feb 19, 2010 09:10 AM

Worthwhile reading.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 11:41 AM

>>You really need to do your homework better Doc.
>>
>>ERNIE EISON
>>WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.
>>Breeding wood rats

??

I cited and discussed that article a day or two ago. Which part of it do you think I missed?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

WSTREPS Feb 19, 2010 02:29 PM

"The estimated population has dwindled to no more than 300 - down dramatically from about 6,500 before 1984, when the rat was added to the federal endangered species list."

"Development, the most prevalent threat to wildlife in Florida, certainly played a role in reducing the rat's prime habitat, but its most recent rapid decline, starting around 1995, happened with much of its remaining habitat under state and federal protection.The dire drop remains somewhat of a puzzle to scientists."

Those are all interesting statements especially when looked at in the overall context of how things like "endangered" wood rats become instrumental as biological political tools ,That seem to pop up at opportunistic times. How many pythons have been found so far on Key largo?, and what's the total rat population estimated at 300?

Do you have a name Amazondoc? Not that Ive looked hard but in skiming thru this thread and others , I haven't seen you post it.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 03:28 PM

>>"The estimated population has dwindled to no more than 300 - down dramatically from about 6,500 before 1984, when the rat was added to the federal endangered species list."
>>
>>"Development, the most prevalent threat to wildlife in Florida, certainly played a role in reducing the rat's prime habitat, but its most recent rapid decline, starting around 1995, happened with much of its remaining habitat under state and federal protection.The dire drop remains somewhat of a puzzle to scientists."
>>
>>
>>
>> Those are all interesting statements especially when looked at in the overall context of how things like "endangered" wood rats become instrumental as biological political tools ,That seem to pop up at opportunistic times. How many pythons have been found so far on Key largo?, and what's the total rat population estimated at 300?

Dunno!

>>
>>Do you have a name Amazondoc? Not that Ive looked hard but in skiming thru this thread and others , I haven't seen you post it.

I don't often post it on sites like this. Amongst other things, I get tired of explaining how to spell and pronounce it to people. But the name is "Ione" -- not "Lone", btw -- and it's pronounced "eye-own".
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Jaykis Feb 19, 2010 10:52 PM

Like Skye?

amazondoc Feb 20, 2010 01:04 AM

>>Like Skye?

Spelled the same, not pronounced the same.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

brd Feb 20, 2010 11:34 AM

WHAT, HUH, I'm jusy an old worn out white boy.

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 20, 2010 12:29 PM

I want to adopt that..NOT..LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

jscrick Feb 19, 2010 01:44 PM

Bare with me. I'd like to make a point from both quoted sources.
jsc

Scientists release Key Largo wood rats in first test of restocking experiment
By CURTIS MORGAN
McClatchy Newspapers
Related:

* http://www.herald.com/

The seven pioneers spent the week preparing for their upcoming ordeal in North Key Largo, sampling berries and other local fare, redecorating homes with sticks, leaves and whatever else they got their little paws on, and generally getting used to life outside a cage at Disney World.

On Tuesday, scientists lifted protective enclosures to release captive-bred Key Largo wood rats into Crocodile Lake National Wildlife Refuge - the first test of a restocking experiment that might represent the last and best hope for an obscure rodent that ranks among Florida's rarest species.

So far, so good. Feral cats and Burmese pythons didn't immediately swallow any, and the lab rats - products of a breeding program run by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, Tampa's Lowry Park Zoo and Disney's Animal Kingdom - showed some of the skills and instincts they'll need to survive.

For one, they've lived up to another name they sometimes go by: pack rat. They've busily added to nests - distinctive mounds cobbled with everything from sticks to dung to the random bottle cap - that were vacated by other members of their vanishing population.

"They've piled so much stuff over the nests it's incredible," said Sandra Sneckenberger, a Wildlife Service biologist.

The service started the breeding program in 2002 as a last-resort attempt to reverse the population decline in the rat's only known home, the tangled hardwood hammocks of the largest island in the Florida Keys chain. The estimated population has dwindled to no more than 300 - down dramatically from about 6,500 before 1984, when the rat was added to the federal endangered species list.

Though they are rats, they are a different genus than the nasty, biting carriers of disease reviled by humans, said Christy Alligood, a research specialist at Disney's Animal Kingdom. The wood rat arises from a kinder, gentler rodent strain and wants nothing to do with homes or buildings. In nature and size, they're more akin to mice - small at just four to nine inches, docile and shy.

Though handling the seven was kept to a minimum to help acclimate them to the wild, biologists and breeding teams grew attached enough to name them, Sneckenberger said. "They are very charismatic creatures."

The first group of seven - Tweak, Ralph, Roxy, Frieda, Rosie, Fern and Garfunkle - will be followed by seven others later this month. The rats, fitted with tiny radio collars, will be tracked for 60 days. If they survive, the hope is they'll breed.

It's not something they do all that frequently in the wild, which might partially account for the species' decline. Unlike prolific urban rats, wood rats breed only two to three times a year, producing about two "pups" each time, Alligood said. Otherwise, they tend to be solitary homebodies.

Getting them together in captivity proved one of the major challenges for the eight-year breeding program, she said. If they weren't in the mood, they might even attack each other. Researchers and technicians at the Animal Kingdom's Conservation Station learned to recognize the signs of a "receptive" wood rat, including a tell-tale, high-pitched raspy chirp.

Development, the most prevalent threat to wildlife in Florida, certainly played a role in reducing the rat's prime habitat, but its most recent rapid decline, starting around 1995, happened with much of its remaining habitat under state and federal protection.

The dire drop remains somewhat of a puzzle to scientists.

Tracking the lab rats also might help sort out threats, including diseases associated with a roundworm found in raccoon feces, as well as Key Largo's problematic population of feral cats and Burmese pythons.

Rat remains have been found in the guts of at least two captured snakes.
Posted on Tue, Feb. 09, 2010 09:35 PM

Read more: Scientists release Key Largo wood rats in first test of restocking experiment - KansasCity.com
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

jscrick Feb 19, 2010 02:11 PM

In the first article, quoted by amazondoc it states: "This resulted in an intensive effort to examine the distribution of Burmese pythons (a non-native, invasive spe- cies on Key Largo) and their impact on the Key Largo woodrats. In 2007, several Burmese pythons were killed on the road near the ref- uges and all of these pythons had consumed at least one Key Largo woodrat. " "
"SEVERAL BURMESE...AND ALL OF THESE PYTHONS HAD CONSUMED AT LEAST ONE KEY LARGO WOODRAT."
The article is dated as being published August 2008 by Christina Alligood (PhD), et al.

The McClatchy article I posted is dated Feb.9,2010. and it states "TWO BURMESE PYTHONS..." as having been found with Wood Rat stomach contents.

I'm pretty sure Christina Alligood is the Director of HSUS in Florida, or something official like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

In any case, she is being mighty ambiguous using the quantity of "SEVERAL". It is possible "SEVERAL" means two in her mind. And, she is being quoted as an authority with the PhD beside her name. Clearly, there is an agenda in conflict with facts being unbiased if this is the case.

The McClatchy article was actually published later, and it clearly states the quantity of "TWO..." and not some ambiguous term such as "SEVERAL".

My point being -- don't ever hand me that bull, that the people behind the ban are not directly as authorities, using hysteria and playing fast and loose with the facts, through their giant megaphone. Speaking of credibility...

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

TOM_CRUTCHFIELD Feb 19, 2010 03:13 PM

I stated in another post that only 2 Burmese had been found on Key Largo to the best of my knowledge. Ron Rozar is the guy they hired to look, trap, and patrol for them. He was here about a month ago and purchased an Atheris hispida. I, of course was inaccurate, but it seems maybe not too inaccurate..LOL..The next post will be denial saying several could mean 2. One of the snakes was found by following the transponder and it was inside a Pythons stomach. I'm not sure any snakes were found on roads at all..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 03:24 PM

>>In the first article, quoted by amazondoc it states: "This resulted in an intensive effort to examine the distribution of Burmese pythons (a non-native, invasive spe- cies on Key Largo) and their impact on the Key Largo woodrats. In 2007, several Burmese pythons were killed on the road near the ref- uges and all of these pythons had consumed at least one Key Largo woodrat. " "
>>"SEVERAL BURMESE...AND ALL OF THESE PYTHONS HAD CONSUMED AT LEAST ONE KEY LARGO WOODRAT."
>>The article is dated as being published August 2008 by Christina Alligood (PhD), et al.
>>
>>The McClatchy article I posted is dated Feb.9,2010. and it states "TWO BURMESE PYTHONS..." as having been found with Wood Rat stomach contents.
>>

These are different snakes. The 2010 article states "AT LEAST TWO" rats in "CAPTURED SNAKES". They do not limit the number to two, and they only include CAPTURED snakes. The 2008 article is talking about road kill snakes, not captured ones.

>>I'm pretty sure Christina Alligood is the Director of HSUS in Florida, or something official like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I dunno. However, the name "Alligood" does not appear on the HSUS web site, and searching google using the terms "Alligood" and "HSUS" doesn't turn up anything relevant (at least in the first 2 pages of hits -- I didn't go any further). If you can find a connection, that would be interesting.

>>In any case, she is being mighty ambiguous using the quantity of "SEVERAL". It is possible "SEVERAL" means two in her mind. And, she is being quoted as an authority with the PhD beside her name. Clearly, there is an agenda in conflict with facts being unbiased if this is the case.

But those claimed facts are not in evidence. Don't build castles on unsupported conjecture.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 03:32 PM

No, Christina Alligood isn't with HSUS, or at least she wasn't in 2008. In 2008, at least, she was a research fellow in animal behavior at Disney's Animal Kingdom.

So much for that conjecture!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

joshhutto Feb 19, 2010 03:57 PM

and god knows that the HSUS and PETA are an honest group and have never had their members infiltrate companies that utilize animals have they? LOL we all know that answer and if you say no than you are blind.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 04:23 PM

>>and god knows that the HSUS and PETA are an honest group and have never had their members infiltrate companies that utilize animals have they? LOL we all know that answer and if you say no than you are blind.

Heck, everyone can dream up conspiracy theories. That doesn't make em true.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

WSTREPS Feb 20, 2010 07:23 AM

Just because someone's name doesn't link up directly with the HSUS or any other large and diverse organization does not mean they have no association with them. Many groups operate underate under the umbreallas of thier parent organizations. Peta , The Sierria club , HSUS etc. are large and diverse. These groups are also connected to many "Conservation " and "Environmental orgamazations" . Often the ties can not be found by taking a superficial look. Radical conservation and anti ownwrship groups are well known for thier abilty to camouflage constituates.

There is also fair amount of cross over between various activist groups and the AZA. For example Jeff Corwin sits on the Defenders of Wildlife board of Directors and also partners with the AZA on various projects including fund raisers. Corwin also turned to the pet trade when he needed animals for his shows and display specimens.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

jscrick Feb 20, 2010 07:33 AM

Well, I can cite you a well documented example of the "infiltration conspiracy" by AR groups that is nothing to make light...the recent infiltration and confiscation at Global Exotics in Arlington, TX.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 03:36 PM

It turns out the paper that Alligood wrote was published in an AZA (American Association of Zoos and Aquariums) publication. Not exactly a bastion of animal rights activism, the AZA.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jscrick Feb 19, 2010 05:06 PM

That makes sense. If she published it in an Animal Rights publication it would certainly be more likely perceived as biased.

I'm still not clear on the distinctions you've made between the two articles. Between roadkill -vs- trapped and 2 rats in one python -vs- 2 pythons with rats. Maybe its all just the stuff of anecdotal urban legend.

Well, if I was a juror in court, would probably consider the evidence too ambiguous, reasonably likely not factual, and dismiss it as not credible. That's just me.

Will have to go back and see what I've missed.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

amazondoc Feb 19, 2010 08:20 PM

>>That makes sense. If she published it in an Animal Rights publication it would certainly be more likely perceived as biased.

If it were significantly biased, it would be less likely to make it into any AZA publication.

>>I'm still not clear on the distinctions you've made between the two articles. Between roadkill -vs- trapped and 2 rats in one python -vs- 2 pythons with rats. Maybe its all just the stuff of anecdotal urban legend.

The distinction means that there were several pythons involved. We have the two captured pythons that we already knew about in one article, PLUS the "several" roadkilled ones in the other article. If you want to get exact numbers and details, try contacting the author.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

jscrick Feb 19, 2010 09:44 PM

Amazondoc, I think with your professional background you will be qualified to answer this...I noticed in one of the articles we've been discussing it stated Raccoons spread worms (roundworms?) in their feces and it was a potential problem for Woodrats.

I've always felt that domestic and wild feral cats were serious disease/parasite vectors (in their feces and through their fleas).

My point being, isn't the spread of pathogens by cats as serious an issue as predation for the Woodrats? Same as with the Raccoons.

Thanks,
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

brhaco Feb 19, 2010 09:51 PM

If that is indeed the case, and since it has already been shown that burmese are preying heavily on raccoons, then it could be that the overall impact of the pythons MIGHT either be neutral or even beneficial to the woodrats?
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

Jaykis Feb 19, 2010 10:58 PM

Burms would there have to be if the rat
population was reduced from 64,000 to 300? They must be hanging from the trees. And since Burms eat cats, we should encourage them to do so.

brhaco Feb 19, 2010 11:18 PM

Yep-seems to me that the number of effective cat/raccoon predators was zero prior to the arrival of burms on Key Largo. Now there is one. It could well be that this will turn out fine.
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

cychluraguy Feb 20, 2010 07:39 AM

The problem is the sise class of berms who eat rats don't eat cats or raccoons and the size class who eats raccoons and cats don't eat rats so any 12' brems caught in the keys should be spayed or nutered and released back where they were found just like they do with the cats. Somehow I don't believe they will think what is good for the goose will be good for the gander.
Rob

amazondoc Feb 20, 2010 01:09 AM

>>Amazondoc, I think with your professional background you will be qualified to answer this...I noticed in one of the articles we've been discussing it stated Raccoons spread worms (roundworms?) in their feces and it was a potential problem for Woodrats.
>>
>>I've always felt that domestic and wild feral cats were serious disease/parasite vectors (in their feces and through their fleas).
>>
>>My point being, isn't the spread of pathogens by cats as serious an issue as predation for the Woodrats? Same as with the Raccoons.

In this case, no. Raccoons carry their own set of intestinal parasites, one of which is a particularly nasty roundworm called Baylisascaris procyonis. I dunno if this is the roundworm the article is referring to, but there's a good chance that it is.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

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