Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I heard from someone that goldfish are a bad choice to feed to garters. Is this true? And if so, why? Also, what about rosy reds?

Yes, this is true, goldfish and rosies are not the best choices for any reptile or fish to eat because of an enzyme called thiaminase. You can find lots of detailed information on that here:

http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,

and lots of information regarding proper garter snake care (including diet!) here!

http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet

Ok, well it is possible that i could get nightcrawlers, but i read in a book that they aren't a complete food and shouldn't be used as a staple diet. Is this true? So what would be the best diet for my garter? I have had her for over 8 yrs. and have only fed her goldfish.

8 yrs on strictly goldfish? hmmm I have often wondered if the anti thiaminase was maybe a little over hyped, not saying that these fish as a stand alone staple is a good idea, but not sure that there are any major short term effects from feeding snakes on occation or for a short period of time, after all I believe from what I have read that the thiaminase lethality theory is based from an old study with mink and was assumed that the mammal model could also be applied to reptiles...of course I could be wrong too and not have all the correct info and history of why the theory that goldfish and rosies which contain high amounts of thiaminase and would effectively block all availability of "thiamin/thiamine" (vitamin A) in snakes and specifically in garter snakes. I'm not refuting the fact that thaiminase can block availablity of "thiamin/thiamine", but I personally wouldn't say "never" "ever" feed rosies or goldfish to garter snakes, but that as a sole staple diet could be a bad idea for long term health.
I start off all babies on guppies, then rosies, and then switch to a diet of strictly froze/thawed appropriately sized mice. One of the main reasons for me personally, other than the thiaminase issue, to not continue feeding feeder fish any longer than is necessary to get them started and then switch over to mice ASAP, is the risk of viral and bacterial pathogens and parasites that feeders can sometimes host, which is why I treat and quarantine all feeder fish before feeding to baby garters.
So to answer your question what other nutritionally complete food choice are there and what is the best choice? I would personally recomend F/T appropriately sided mice, they are nutritionally complete and much, much less likely to infect your snake with a pathogen or parasite. IMHO
-----
Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

Thanks, Jeff.
It won't be a problem switching her over. She has the nickname the garbage can, because if my other reptiles don't eat their pinkies, fuzzies, fish, frog, etc. she will. 80% of her diet is goldfish, but she also gets occasional treats. I try to get her an amphibian every now and then. So, thanks for all your help.

I don't really see anything wrong with the varied diet you just sited, I thought you said she had "ONLY" eaten goldfish for 8 yrs and that was a bit of a surprise. If you already have pinkies and fuzzies for other reptiles and she serves as the "garbage disposal" and will always eat their leftovers, then I would think it would just be easier for you to cut out the goldfish and feed her mice. I feed exclusively mice, mainly for ease and time, but a lot of people prefer to feed a more natural variety diet, either way is fine, but 80% goldfish is probably pushing the envelope of complete balanced nutrition and good optimal health, IMHO.
-----
Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

Also a lot of people feed other types of fish like trout and salmon if you want to feed variety without the thaiminase, but I'm guessing part of the reason you feed goldfish and assuming you feed live goldfish is to watch her hunt, which I admitt is very, very entertaining, it is also fun to watch them hunt down the end of the tongs which is what mine are trained to do, I even have a few voratious feeding gravid females right now that as soon as I open their tubs they come flying out with their heads swinging side to side and mouths a snapping, lol, pretty cool but fingers look like big fuzzies, lol.
-----
Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

Hey Jeff what do you use to treat the fish with? I use mice also but had to use fish as first foods.
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

great question, I dose Aquarisol every day in the feeder fish tank during the baby season and dose Clout once or twice a week depending on how often I buy a new batch of feeders and put them into the tank. I have been using both of those products for 20 years and in my humble oppinion are the only products needed ever and actually I never use either product in my established aquariums, don't need to, reason being; healthy unstressed fish never need meds, but for quarantine the Aquarisol is very effective for most bacterial and fungal and ick, and the Clout takes care of the nastier parasites, especially the internal, like worms ect, and both products will not have a negative or detrimental effect to the natural and essetial nitrification bacteria, which is the most important aspect of fish health overall, because without a low stress, well established, perfect nitrification cycling tank, a fish's immune system is worthless and all the meds in the world won't do any good.
-----
Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

To Jeff:

I just got a California red-sided garter from an expo. Would i treat him just like an eastern garter? Are their any differences i need to know about? And thx for the feeder fish tip.

Scott Felzer would be a better person to ask about the California red-sided he has a lot of experience with them, but I would guess care would be similar.
Also just wanted to add when I am buying lots of feeder fish, during the beginning of the baby season, I do water changes twice a week instead of the usuall routine once per week, what I usually do is when I get a new batch of feeders in, I will let them settle in overnight then treat the tank in the morning then wait a couple days, then do a water change and then they are good to go and ready to start feeding babies, this has worked well for me, and while it may be overkill I would rather be safe than sorry, I have had very few baby garters die, but you will always have a few that just won't feed or will fail to thrive and will die, I think some of that is likely due to developemental defects, but having high quality, healthy and disease free, thriving, low maintenance animals is top priority.
-----
Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com

thaiminase is released after the death of the fish and is denatured by digestive acids. The only risk is if you do not feed live gold fish but dead ones. Which I don't know anyone that does that anyway! And if for some reason you wanted to feed your snake dead fish, if you live freeze them, that will denature the thaiminase as well.