Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I haven't heard back from the TRAFFIC people yet, but I did find some very very rough import numbers. I don't know where we originally mentioned importation down in that maze below, so I thought I'd post it here instead. Dunno if these will help anything, but it might be better than nothing --

From US FWS:

1970-1995 -- 17,000 burms imported to the US
1996-2006 -- 99,000 burms imported to the US

cited in: Burmese Pythons in South Florida: Scientific Support for Invasive Species Management. Rebecca G. Harvey, Matthew L. Brien, Michael S. Cherkiss, Michael Dorcas, Mike Rochford, Ray W. Snow, and Frank J. Mazzotti. Univ. of FL IFAS Extension, publication no. WEC242
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That would be contradictory to what I said/believe as to the quantities of Burms imported most recently.

I stand corrected if this is in fact the case.

There is a chance the numbers reflect animals trans-shipped through the U.S. to other foreign final destinations.

Would be interested to see if most of them came in early in that time period and the least quantities arrived in years at the end of the time period. Can we get a breakdown by year?

The log book records of the USF&W (Miami, New York, DFW, etc.)for the years in question can be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, if one so chooses.

Obviously, those authors got their numbers from somewhere. Let's ask them. Does the referenced paper say?

If it's worth telling, It's worth telling the whole story.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I would be willing to bet that the majority of those came in as skins, not as live animals.

That is very likely as that's what I found in the 90's when I researched the numbers of 5 species common in the pet trade. I then made pie graphs with red for dead and green for alive. The percentages for the 5 year period was done on Boa Constrictors, Burmese Pythons, Water Monitors, Reticulate Pythons, and Tegu Lizards. The percentage of live compared to dead was astronomically in favor of the dead ones [skins]. I believe in most cases less than 10% of the total were live ones. I have those graphs still I believe. If I can find them I'll post the results...Interestingly enough as well was that importers for the most part import only babies while the skin trade targets adults or subadults[breeders] in terms of size. This was a program I did to demonstrate how the pet trade even then was used as a scapegoat in terms of being harmful to wildlife when in fact the skin trade is far more damaging in scope.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

These appear to be live imports.

I found a chart that shows yearly live imports calculated by CITES. I've posted a copy of the chart below.

Here also is a further statement about the import numbers:

"Indian Pythons are desirable because of their beauty and ease of handling. These attributes, combined with a very low cost for wild juveniles coming out of Southeast Asia, has long allowed the Burmese Python to be a mainstay of the exotic reptile trade. Groombridge and Luxmoore (1991) reported that export of live Burmese Pythons from Thailand peaked in 1985 at 25,000, after which Thailand curtailed the trade. The following year, Malaysian exports of the nonresident species jumped from 94 to 15,006, suggesting that much of the trade was rerouted in response to Thailand’s export ban. Reed (2005) tabulated U.S. importation records for 24 species of boas and pythons during the period 1989–2000, which indicated that Burmese Pythons4 were the fourth most popular snake (behind P. regius, B. constrictor, and B. reticulatus), at 12,466 recorded importations. The number of snakes imported increased sharply over the last decade, with 99,000 individuals imported from 1996 through 2006 (Harvey and others, 2008,
4 There is no legal trade in Indian Pythons that are not of the Burmese subspecies; thus all importation records for the species are referred to Python molurus bivittatus.
59
based on LEMIS import records). It is notable that not all import records were identifiable to species (thus the cited figure is a minimum), and domestic sources (undocumented) are believed to constitute a significant additional source (unpub. records of Florida Wildlife Comm., Law Enforcement). CITES records (Fig. 4.4) show wide swings in annual imports, with a sharp decline in recent years that CITES notes may be at least partially due to incomplete records tabulated since 2005."

Both the chart and the statement quoted above can be found here:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2009/1202/pdf/OF09-1202.pdf

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"Would be interested to see if most of them came in early in that time period and the least quantities arrived in years at the end of the time period. Can we get a breakdown by year?"

The chart does seem to show the numbers do start higher and end lower for that time period.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>"Would be interested to see if most of them came in early in that time period and the least quantities arrived in years at the end of the time period. Can we get a breakdown by year?"
>>
>>The chart does seem to show the numbers do start higher and end lower for that time period.

Oddly, the USFWS numbers don't appear to agree with the CITES numbers. But I haven't taken the time to really think about it or look into it. If I figure out anything further, I'll post it.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I don't know, but possibly what Tom said regarding skins.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>I don't know, but possibly what Tom said regarding skins.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

The CITES numbers specify live imports, but the numbers appear to be **higher** than the USFWS numbers. I dunno, but I'll think about it more later on. It may be something simple that I'm missing.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The CITES numbers specify live imports, but the numbers appear to be **higher** than the USFWS numbers. I dunno, but I'll think about it more later on. It may be something simple that I'm missing.

One thing could be that the cites number your looking at is the quota number and not the actual export number, For example the cites people might issue permits to export 10,000 farmed / ranched animals, exporters will buy / get all the quota but they might only ship x amount from that quota, that's a possible explanation. I have no doubt that cites records animal exports that never happened becuse of this practice. The Cites organization is pretty much a mess. Im not saying thats the case proof positive but it is a possibility. Overall the numbers look right to me. There were a few years that lot of baby burms came in, nobody was breeding them. The last few years I would be surprised if more then 3 to 5k(per year)were actually imported, maybe less.

Im not possitive I dont check very often but I dont think theres country in the world that currently issues cites permits for burms to be used as skins, meat etc. Only live farmed/CB permits.Dont get me wrong,you can easily get around this for special occasions, and none of these county's stop killing the snakes they just have to launder them.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

>
>> One thing could be that the cites number your looking at is the quota number and not the actual export number

That could be it!
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Another interesting thing to note in this chart --

The import numbers were nearly zero in the years immediately before Hurricane Andrew...which damages, but certainly does not rule out, the argument that the Glades snakes were hurricane escapees from an importer.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Here's some additional import numbers from another source, and a description of their source:

"I analyzed the trade in snakes imported to the United States using data taken from the Law Enforcement Management Information System (LEMIS), which is maintained by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. This database contains import and export declarations detailing the numbers, species composi- tion, and monetary value of shipments, and comprises the only detailed record of the legal domestic reptile trade."

Risk Analysis, Vol. 25, No. 3, 2005. An Ecological Risk Assessment of Nonnative Boas and Pythons as Potentially Invasive Species in the United States. Robert N. Reed.

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (TBA)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (TBA)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That's all interesting, but, is there any way to see where the snakes went once they were brought in or who it was that brought them in? I know I'm getting old, but if my memory serves me correctly, there was an importer in the path of the hurricane that had just gotten in a large shipment of baby burms and his business was blown away by the hurricane. The information so far is just general information.

>>That's all interesting, but, is there any way to see where the snakes went once they were brought in or who it was that brought them in? I know I'm getting old, but if my memory serves me correctly, there was an importer in the path of the hurricane that had just gotten in a large shipment of baby burms and his business was blown away by the hurricane. The information so far is just general information.

I don't think you can trace anything that closely.

Interestingly, there were virtually no burm imports in 1991-1993, the period right around the hurricane.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

That doesn't mean NO BURMS. I believe it was just a couple of hundred. I don't know if you are aware of this, but, Miami is the biggest port for bringing in live animals in the country. So even a small amout had a very good chance of coming in through Florida. Miami is the only port in Florida for import.

>>That doesn't mean NO BURMS. I believe it was just a couple of hundred. I don't know if you are aware of this, but, Miami is the biggest port for bringing in live animals in the country. So even a small amout had a very good chance of coming in through Florida. Miami is the only port in Florida for import.

Yup. I said earlier -- I forget where -- that the low level of imports during those years damages, but doesn't destroy, the theory about a big import release causing the Glades invasion.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Importers/dealers do not get their stock only from imports the get it from breeders who wholesale out their reptiles as well. Importers typically pull from whatever resources they can find whether they are from other countries or this one.

>>Importers/dealers do not get their stock only from imports the get it from breeders who wholesale out their reptiles as well. Importers typically pull from whatever resources they can find whether they are from other countries or this one.

If the stock came from the breeders, then we're back to the problem of why aren't morphs being found in the Glades.

Remember, according to the folks here on the forum, by the early 90s all the breeders were wholesaling tons of hets. So we're stuck with four possibilities to explain the lack of morphs being caught:

1. only imported burms were released;
2. the release/releases occurred before hets were common in the trade;
3. hets are not actually as common in the pet trade as has been claimed; or
4. morphs have poor survival in the wild, so they are dying before being found.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I will relate one puzzling incident that I experienced in about 1973-1974 regarding wild Pythons. This was before I even owned a retile business personally. At the time I worked in low level management for Sears Roebuck and Co. I was the guy the police, animal services, and the Fire Dept. called if there was a reptile problem in Lee County, FL [FT MYERS] which is located in S.W. Florida. I was reffered to a lady living off Hiway 82 in the country in those days about a lg. snake she had placed a number 3 wash tub over. I called for directions and suggested the lady simply release it as it was likely an Indigo Snake. She said "sonny boy" I was born here and this ain't no durn Gopher Snake [colloquolism for an Indigo by locals]. The snake was described as being over 10' long. spotted, and hissing loud while tryng to bite. I asked my boss if I could run out at lunch and get the snake and he said yes. When I got there it was a Burmese Python about 8-9' long and obviously NOT a pet as it had some scars and was extremely hostile. At that time period Burmese Pythons were still NOT a common snake and in fact Indian Pythons in Herpetoculture were likely more common as imports of Indian's stopped from Pakistan in the late 60's I believe but were still held in collections in some numbers. I hunted herps for years in S.E. Florida and S.W. Florida and everywhere in between and until the last 6-8 years had never seen another one. I was good friends with many of the old time snake hunters and Larry Robertson [real OLD TIMER..sorry Larry] is here about once or twice a week even today. They never saw any either. There were only about 10-12 people that I knew in the area that collected and kept snakes in that time period. It didn't belong to any of them and Burmese Pythons were quite expensive and hard to obtain in those days. I have often wondered where that snake came from. I kept it for about 2 years and it acted like a wild snake in that it never tamed down and was a poor eater. I traded it off as I remember because Burmese Pythons were highly sought after in those days..If it had been a captive it would have had to escape as they were too valuable to release..To put it in perpective a Burmese that size in those days if offered for sale say by Bill Chase a long dead famous animal dealer in Miami would have sold for $125-$150 each. I don't know what the equivelent would be in money today but for me it was a princely sum in those days...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>I will relate one puzzling incident that I experienced in about 1973-1974 regarding wild Pythons. This was before I even owned a retile business personally. At the time I worked in low level management for Sears Roebuck and Co. I was the guy the police, animal services, and the Fire Dept. called if there was a reptile problem in Lee County, FL [FT MYERS] which is located in S.W. Florida.

That's very interesting.

I'm lousy with geography. Is that anywhere near the glades? I'm just thinkin', you could be pushing the possibilities for original foundation of the Glades population even further back than the original 1979 known capture inside the Glades.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The Glades is shaded and Ft. Myers is to the North. I don't think they could travel that far, especially since no others have been found in Ft. Myers.

how the pythons got into the ENP is going to make any difference concerning legislation. Unfortunalty, this whole thing evolves around some science, some emotion, some knowledge and all politics. To say that it is not due to some released animals is to be naive. I spent 33 years snake hunting in the Tampa Bay area and in those years I caught two burmese pythons, one a 13 footer in 1980, two boa constrictors, one four foot and the other six foot, one anaconda about nine foot which died about two days after capture (1976) and one Children's python about five foot long. All but the 13 foot burmese where found in extremely rural settings, which indicate to me releases rather then escapees. The large burm was found in a pretty congested area, so probably an escaped animal. While this thread has been educational at times, ridiculous at times, emotional at times, funny and insightful, the bottom line, IMHO it is still all about "politics" and nothing is going to change that.

Well, that makes me wonder if I know you. I moved to Pinellas County in June of 1977 just about a month before my 11th birthday and I have snake hunted and animal hunted in the Tampa Bay Area. I don't know of anyone who has caught a Burm or Anaconda in the area personaly. I had a friend around 1993 catch a real nice Ball Python around 4 feet. He brought it over because he didn't know what it was. He found it crossing the street in his neighborhood and there wasn't a scratch on it. I had another friend catch a Savannah Monitor around 1991. Somewhere around 1980 I caught a box turtle that was from, I believe the Kentucky area. It's been so long I forgot the species, but it was not a Florida Box Turtle or a native species. I knew someone who caught an Iguana once. You have some incredible luck finding animals.

Well...after spending 33 years in that ara collecting/observing...don't know how "lucky" I was...but had some good success. There have been several other people in that area who have caught burmese pythons as well. I was on the call out list for animals for both the Tampa Police department and the Hillsborough County Sheriffs for many years. That is how I got the 13' python, recieved a call at 2:00AM to go pick up a snake. That snake ended up with Tom Crutchfield. The two boas were found "road cruising", one in Nine Eagles, which is Pinellis County and one in Durant Florida, Hillsborough County. The anaconda was found under a bridge on SR 580 going north out of Tampa. That used to be known back then as the "road to no where"...now they call it New Tampa. The Liasis, again was a phone call from a friend I worked with who had a snake in his garage. He had 10 acres out in the country, near Valrico, and the snake was coiled on his tool board in his garage. So, the only one that I really discoverd while actually walking in the woods was the small burm about 6 feet that I found in Lithia Pinecrest. It was strange , because you kind of train you eyes to see local stuff and then when something like that appears you almost over look it. I would not have seen that snake had it not flicked out its tongue, but, yet after that, it stood out like a sore thumb. Just wondering though...how did you determine that the box turtle came from Kentucky?

When I was a kid I had a small collection of box turtles, all Florida Box Turtles, and I even had four or five Gopher Tortoises (don't tell anyone). So at the time I had some knowledge of different box turtle species. I had a friend that even had the species I found in his collection. I don't know for sure if it was a Kentucky native, could of been Tennesee, but it was somewhere up around that whole area. I have been out of torts for so long I don't remember the species or the locality. But it was not a Florida native.

I just remembered in 1991 or 1992 I caught a grey Cockatiel, I was on my lunch break and I was sitting by the loading docks with some coworkers. This bird lands down on the ground and just starts pecking at the asphault. I walked down the steps and bent down, stuck my finger out, and he climbed right on. He was clearly an escaped pet. I gave it to a coworker who took it home and made a pet out of it.

Now if you find a Sinaloan Milk Snake in the Pinellas Park area arond 102 Ave. and 66th St. I want it back (LOL). I had an escapey around 1991 or 1992, he could still be alive, but I doubt it. He was only a couple of months old when he got loose. His cage was close to the back door, and someone left the back door open that night so I am sure he got out, we never found him.

As of right now I have a Central American Boa and a Ball Python loose in the house (at least I hope they are in the house). What are you gonna do?

We've all made mistakes and had things get loose. But the days of being nonchalant about it are over.

Very interesting info, Daniel!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I tend to agree with you Daniel, it doesn't matter at this point but it is important to at least attempt to try and make the point.... That it is very UNLIKELY these snakes are the result of intentional releases by pet owners.

The whole Andrew argument makes about as much sense as the intentional pet owner release story does,

I think to anybody who's been around the trade in South Florida in more then a casual sense, in their hearts they have to believe the true cause to be intentional seeding of the population by certain individuals. While nobody knows or will ever know for sure, the seeding theory makes the most sense. This has already been discussed publicity so Im not letting any cats out of the bag.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

I hear what you are saying Ernie. Humans have been releasing animals as long as we have been in existance...intentional and unintentional. Sometimes the animals can make it...but most of the time they don't. Sometimes, humans can make a difference and other times...well we are just irrelevant. If that is what the scientist are trying to determine in the ENP...then let them go for it. There have been a lot of smart people comment on these threads...much smarter then I...but what most have seemed to miss, IMHO...is this is all about politics. Bill Nelson and the DOI see a cash cow...and it doesn't matter who's rights or freedoms they have to abuse, they are going to milk that cow. Proof of that is in the very legislations that they are proposing. I do find it hard to beleive that a few scattered releases or escapes caused what we have in the ENP...but...again...I'm not a scientist and it's just an opinion. I would think that, as some have said, there is a smoking gun to where these pythons began to establish at. We all want to exist on this ole world as long as we can...but the truth is, it is in constant change...sometimes from things we can control and other times from things we cannot control. I don't spend a whole lot of time worring about the things I can't control. To me...pythons in the ENP...is nothing compared to the big problem...the loss of freedoms for innocent people. Where does that stop at?

Dan

Politics are a huge role in what is taking place. Bill Nelson wants to make a name for himself. As far as the cash cow, the state will get over 3 billion dollars in federal money. Anyone who lives in Florida has to have a ROC permit (Reptiles of Concern) to own a Burm. As we all know each state can make their own rules and regulations and make new laws as they see fit. There was some legislation that moved forward last week or the week before that will ban everything on the ROC permit list. It flew through the first stage so fast USARK couldn't even argue. Personally, I don't think anyone is going to change the law makers minds in Florida. They want the money and that is all there is to it.

My thoughts -- there must be some kind of way of cutting off the spigot... some way of getting Joe Tax Payer's attention as to the true agenda, unsatisfactory track record, likely outcome, and waste of THEIR money.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer