Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Gang,
I just returned from the vet who administered a Baytril shot to right arm of RingoStar Tortoise for his RI. I asked about using Fortaz (I had read here Fortaz was better for treating stars but he said he did not have the Fortaz antibiotic). Ringo is resting in his enclosure- in his shell and Not Happy. I was given 7 shots in total to administer every 3 days; each about 1.25 ml. Id appreciate any feedback. Ringo is so withdrawn- he's not at all usually like this. At the slightest touch to his shell he retracts- so sensitive. What temperature is best for him as he recovers? He seems like he dosent want/cant move around /
Thanks

Hi. Sorry to hear you are having these problems. The Baytril injections are extremely painful to the tortoises and often cause tissue necrosis at the injection site, which is one reason that many reptile vets quit using it. The Fortaz is extremely costly (probably a reason your vet doesn't stock it), but works better and doesn't cause the necrosis or the pain. You are likely to get the same reaction each time you inject the Baytril. You can see the animal's anguish.

If I recall correctly, you are in MA aren't you?? You could quite probably take the tortoise to the VCA office on Rte 9 in Framingham and get the Fortaz (ceftazidime) injection there. They used to have it on hand when I went there from Sharon, CT if I had a sick tortoise to see Dr. Innis (he is not there any longer, but you could call and ask who treats their exotic patients now and if they have the medication on hand).

GOD Zovick-
I been thinking of you and I was hoping to touch base with you- thank you. Yes, my tort is anguishing through this ordeal and It's been so heart breaking. I have more Baytril shots to administer, but God, watching the obvious pain from expressions is just... too obvious. I want to stop and that is it. The enclosure temps are at 90 , wheezing has been silenced. Warmer temps outside are just days away; It reached 50 today. The Vet just isnt in tune with my stars needs and I will try to connect with your supplied connection. Thanks- I knew you'd point me in the right direction!!!

just adding that i had a bad baytril injection experience also -- my poor redfoot has scars under her arms from the necrosis she suffered (couldn't get her to her regular vet, and between this and the fact that they CLUNKED a completely tame animal down on a metal table, they will never see me again -- this was an exotics place, too!).

anyway, those injectiosn are bad news, and i only wish i'd known it sooner.

HELLO THIS IS IMPORT!!!
Feedback to vet regarding Ringo's reaction (excessive tearing, nostril mucus discharge, refusing food, swollen shut eyes, withdrawn touch sensitivity) resulted with Vet advising to cease Baytril treatment. However, Ringo appears to have stop wheezing... I will keep Observation record with tort forum members.
Thanks Gang ~

OMG OMG- That's just mortifying!!! Thanks unchikun, for sharing past horridness and I will stop Baytril and search for vet with Fortaz!

what breaks my heart is that my husband and i gave her some of those injections by that vet's orders. we were supposed to alternate under each arm. but one morning her normally grey underarms had turned BLACK... i freaked out at the vet, who at the very least didn't charge us for the return visit and gave us some cream to put on it.

because we were fortunately not told to do deep tissue injections, the necrosis was very shallow. it scabbed over and came off after maybe a week? and new skin was underneath.

this was a couple of years ago maybe, and she still has the pigmentation scarring i referred to.

the lesson i learned is to QUESTION QUESTION QUESTION your vet! i just hate that my junior had to go through that.

JESUS Anguish; No more Baytril for my baby- that story counts... thanks for knowledge. So bad too sad! Gonna work with Amherst MA vet to get correct antibiotic.

Tried DrInnis but wasnt in framingham; was referred back to Angel mem in boston. Looks like ill try to get original vet in Amherst to special order the Fortaz or Ill be going to Tuft$ Vet in Grafton MA

Hi. Guess my prior post wasn't very well understood??? It never said to ask for Charlie Innis. Charlie LEFT VCA in Framingham a couple of years ago and is now the vet for New England Aquarium in Boston. He did also work at Grafton, MA, but for VCA which a few years back had a place there. I think it was closed because it wasn't that busy in Grafton.

The point is, though, VCA in Framingham had a special room set up for tortoises, lizards, etc. and was a big place. I believe they probably would have hired a replacement for Dr. Innis who would continue treating the exotics. Did you ask if they still have an exotics vet? That is what to do. They are usually open till 9 PM, or used to be, so maybe you could still call and ask about that now.

TORTOISE PAIN. I to have used Baytril in the past and the tortoises suffered and became withdrawn. In a case of a real bad bite from a tortoise to another tortoise it showed no sign of pain,walking around and even eating with a bite so bad the food was coming out of a hole in its neck from the bite. I do not understand this! Bill? anyone? By the way it is fine now and lives on to this day thanks to a good friend of mine thats a former Vet teck,and Fortez. Vic

Hi Vic. I can't answer why the Baytril is so painful to the tortoises, but I have seen its effects numerous times and felt so badly for the animals I vowed not to use it any more. Luckily the Fortaz became available about the same time. It is VERY costly though. I have found the best sources are huge vet clinic chains or vet schools with large numbers of patients that actually keep it on hand. For a small private vet clinic to order a drug which costs about $300 for 10 little vials that have only a 6-10 month shelf life is cost-prohibitive. They generally charge enough per vial in my experience to cover about 25-35% of their cost for the whole box because they know it will very likely expire before they use it again. I couldn't find a local vet who had it in stock a year or two ago, so tried buying it for myself from a supplier as a duly licensed health professional, and learned that the same box a vet can buy for $300 is only available to me on my (human) drug license for $700!!! Unbelievable, but sadly, it's true.

I am waiting to see if anyone still sees exotics at Westboro (near Framingham) where Dr. Innis used to work. I used to use Dr. Innis but lost him to the New England Aquarium. He told me when he left that he would recommend Dr. Jorge Mayer at Tufts. I have not gone that route yet as I am afraid I will wind up with some student... just thought I would mention it.

Carole
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www.reptilecare.com

The Vet in Ma. to go to for your tortoise is Dr. Greg Mertz in Weymouth.500Columbian St. S. Weymouth Ma.02190..781-251-9131.

He is hands down the guy to see.Any other vet that deals w/reptiles would tell you the same thing

I am so appreciative with all this really important priceless feedback and I know someone will benefit; I certainly have!!! I will try to contact vet in Weymouth before Tuft$ if Amherst Vet cant get the Fortaz. May all your lil'soulmates thrive xoxo
Ringo

DrRussellDVM @ Amherst MA,
just called having received Fortaz, "Yes!"
Tufts office visit over $130.00
Amherst just about below $100.00

Weymouth is $53 .It all goes to the wildlife sanctuary for rehabing and stuff. He just saw my Beardie and dewormed him and gave me meds,syringes,and a few extra droppers all for $70.

Really cool place and you can check out all the critters they have.

Hopefuly your tort is doing better

Something we have done is have the vet write a prescription and get you the syringes. Then call around to local pharmacies and find it. It can be difficult to find, but is possible. We found a 1 gram vial for $23. REMEMBER, 1 gram is a huge amount, so if you are not familiar with reconstituting and dosing, make sure you get the Vet's help. I am a health care professioinal, and am more than comfortable dosing and reconstituting. Once reconstituted, I draw up all the doses and freeze them. I hope this is useful information.

How long does it stay good recon.frozen? Vic

The research says that it lasts 7 days after reconstitution when refrigerated and 30 days when frozen. My problem with freezing it has been that the doses required for smaller tortoises require the use of tuberculin syringes, and when the plunger is drawn back much more than 1/2 or 2/3 of the way, it is pushed completely out of the barrel of the syringe by the expansion of the solution when it freezes. It is then virtually impossible to replace the plunger after thawing without losing most if not all of the product. This could be avoided by using multiple syringes with a portion of the dose in each one, but would then also require multiple injections to accomplish the one dose. IE, if a needed dose was .85 cc, it could not all be frozen in one tuberculin syringe without the plunger coming out, so two with .425 cc would be needed in my experience.

This is great!!! Thanks to all with this valuable feedback- I am scheduled to see Amherst Vet on Fri 3-18-2010.
Ringo started wheezing again 4 days after 1st administering of Baytril. I cant loose him to this- i just wont! Everyones support has been amazing and I really appreciate it!

keep us posted about your lil' ringo and let us know how he does!

What we have done is very similar to you Bill. We freeze it in a 6 cc syringe with say 3 cc's. Then we pull the plunger back to give adequate room for expansion. Once we need to re-dose, we thaw a syringe and then draw up 2 more doses from the 6 cc syringe. We have not had any plunger mishaps. There is of course waste, but still much cheaper than getting it elsewhere.

Just for your information when we have to give a baytril injection we dilute it with sterile saline to lessen the possibility of necrosis.
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

This sounds like a good idea, Richard. The average person who may not have the means to dilute the drug at home could ask his vet to dilute the dosage that way when it is dispensed and perhaps it would solve a lot of the problems associated with the Baytril injections.

Do you give Baytril daily when you use it? That is how is was first recommended by the manufacturer and the way it was used at the Bronx Zoo when it was being tested there in the early 1990's. Another advantage of the ceftazidime over Baytril is that it only needs to be given every three days (or every two days in a severe case). Hence, though it is costly, less may be needed in the long run due to the doses being given further apart.

We usually give the injection 10mg/kg every 48 hours for 10 days, however depending on how bad the infection is we use the 4 quadrant therapy that Klingenberg termed in 1996. We use baytril and metronidazole on alternating days. This covers aerobes,anaerobes,gram-pos and gram-neg. We also give fluids 20ml/kg per day. and we make sure that the temperature is 86 degrees to metabolize the antibiotics properly. We have come up with this treatment from a combination of diffrent sources some older and some newer. We also may use diffrent antibiotics depending on the type of problem and availability and the size of the tortoise. We are in no way giving anyone medical advice this is just what we do. Thank you for your input we appreciate all your insight on the forum...
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

7 syringes with Fortex antibiotic were given to me to freeze by the vet. Thaw then administer just below skin layer NOT intramuscular injection- every 3 days to my Ringo. Wheezing appears to be less, but vet told me to be patient it takes time to recover. Vet also reported Baytril may cause some joint inflammation in some torts as well as necroses and mucus/tearing. "Yuk!!!",- that Baytril was very bad for my stars... very bad and painful for them.

Was the drug Fortaz or Fortex? I haven't heard of the second one. Maybe it is a newer version?

Anyway, best of luck with your Stars now!

My Bad spelling it is Fortaz. Thanks to all, Your support has been most comforting. They have stop wheezing and have just a few more shots... Ill post pics as soon as they are done with medicine. (And I figure out how to post photos) ;o)

Good luck with them!