Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just heard Ron Magill (herp curator and communications director for Miami MetroZoo) on CNN, saying that albino burms HAVE been caught in the wild in FL. If true, that would blow the argument about no-morphs-therefore-no-pet-releases out of the water.

Does anyone else have any info about this, one way or the other?
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I've never heard of any being found but maybe it's something recent or something brought in by the Venom 1 guys from a more urban setting.

Mike

>>I've never heard of any being found but maybe it's something recent or something brought in by the Venom 1 guys from a more urban setting.
>>
>>Mike

It may not be true at all. We all know that sometimes people goof when they speak off the cuff. But my ears pricked up when I heard him say it!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

If you Google this subject you will find that the accurate statement is no albinos or morphs have been found in the wild in Everglades National Park, Big Cypress or the nearby Water Conservation Areas. Albinos and morphs have been found in outlying locations in more urban sites such as Tampa and Vero Beach maybe even Fort Myers. I do not believe there are any data supporting breeding by those outlying individuals. All have been larger pythons

I guess it depends on what your definition of in the wild is. But escaped or released morphs have been found loose in Florida, but not at the center of the invasion.

Almost all burms in the captive market are het for something thanks to bob clarck.So this would indicate wild burms imported and released by a storm or aanother event.In honalulu jacksons chamelions were released to keep the trade in them strong the babies are small and hard to raise.By releaseing them and collecting them later they only got the best with a ready supply.I would not doubt that some burms were released by some idiot wholesaler to catch later when needed.I would bet that is how some got there.I doubt they were pets ever.The truth is the dna could be traced as to there origin and cross checked to captive stock.They will never be a over powering force.GATORS ALREADY EAT WHAT BURMS EAT IT WILL BALANCE OUT.I think they should have a season like gators so we can make money on them.I hope they never exterminate them it is neat to have a population of burms on native soil.There will always be fear mongers like peta .wILD HORSES ARE NOW PROTECTED.
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Archie Bottoms

I don't think one or two incidents would blow it out of the water. Pet dumping does play a role in the establishment of this species but it may not be the basis for the establishment, the cause has yet to be proven. Irresponsible citizens are a fact, but categorizing the entire hobby as irresponsible is not right or accurate and this assertion is being used as the basis to restrict reptile ownership.

>>I don't think one or two incidents would blow it out of the water. Pet dumping does play a role in the establishment of this species but it may not be the basis for the establishment, the cause has yet to be proven. Irresponsible citizens are a fact, but categorizing the entire hobby as irresponsible is not right or accurate and this assertion is being used as the basis to restrict reptile ownership.

As someone on this board has mentioned before, I do doberman rescue. When you get involved in rescue, you realize that "irresponsible" does describe waaaaaaay too many pet keepers in general. Nonetheless, I don't think the pro-ban forces are really saying that the whole hobby is irresponsible. IMHO, one of the things they're saying is just that the folks that ARE irresponsible are doing damage and need more modes of control.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"When you get involved in rescue, you realize that "irresponsible" does describe waaaaaaay too many pet keepers in general."

Describes way too many parents/procreating Humans, too. What can we do about that?

By the way, remember the day when, if someone did something irresponsible, careless and stupid; and wound up in a terrible bind, it was perfectly acceptable to say "Serves them right". What ever happened to that right of expressing personal opinion, I wonder?

Sure can't make such an insensitive comment like that now. Just not politically correct. What a shame.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>"When you get involved in rescue, you realize that "irresponsible" does describe waaaaaaay too many pet keepers in general."
>>
>>Describes way too many parents/procreating Humans, too. What can we do about that?

Not enough, unfortunately!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I've spent more hours in a shelter than most, I've worked as an Animal Control Officer for the city of Atlanta, been a paid employee for the Humane Society, have managed several nuisance wildlife control companies, and I have worked in no-kill shelters as well as kill shelters (and I have nightmares over the animals I have put down), and I have volunteered at several rescue organizations. One thing that I have noticed is that the vast majority of pet owners are absolutely responsible.

>>I've spent more hours in a shelter than most, I've worked as an Animal Control Officer for the city of Atlanta, been a paid employee for the Humane Society, have managed several nuisance wildlife control companies, and I have worked in no-kill shelters as well as kill shelters (and I have nightmares over the animals I have put down), and I have volunteered at several rescue organizations. One thing that I have noticed is that the vast majority of pet owners are absolutely responsible.

Unfortunately, there is that remaining huge minority that we all have to deal with. If all pet owners were responsible, you would have been out of a job!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

People out here in the sticks are horrible with their dogs and cats. I see a new dead dog on the road every day. "Yea, he was a good old dog. Lived for 5 years before he got hit by a car." or "That was a worthless dog anyway. Got run over and kilt before his first birthday." "Oh well, we got plenty more where that one came from."

I think the mindset for release is the same as for turning into the shelter. They don't really want to know or think about the final solution. Just choose to think those happy hopeful thoughts.

I absolutely could not be in the institutional pet killing business.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I absolutely could not be in the institutional pet killing business

The worst part about it is incinerating the bodies. At the shelter I worked at, in spite of all their faults, they kept truly adoptable animals as long as they could and usually put down diseased or extremely aggressive dogs. Putting them down did not bother as bad as that incinerator. For a few years I worked at the shelter in the winter and was grounds crew at an amusement park the rest of the year. People would come to that park and barbecue and burn their meat and I would just about get sick. Chicken was always the worst, people eat way too much chicken in this country, and when you burn it, it smells just like that incinerator did. It was horrible.

when you compare the number of pet owners who do not dump their pets to those who do then my point is made, the simple fact is that the vast majority of pet owners are responsible.

>>when you compare the number of pet owners who do not dump their pets to those who do then my point is made, the simple fact is that the vast majority of pet owners are responsible.

Nope. The point is that there are lots and lots of animals who DO get dumped and/or mistreated.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Maybe they should have a permit system for all pets, and charge a fee. I think this would weed out some of the potentially bad owners because they wouldn't want to pay. But, I also think that the majority should not be punished because of the bad things that a few did.

The fee should be reasonable, how much do we pay for our dogs? I think tags in my town are still under $10.

Nope, not when you are talking about the general population of pet owners, irresponsible pet owners are a minority. It makes no sense to add repetitive legislation that will only affect responsible pet owners, the vast majority, since the irresponsible pet owners, the clear minority, are not following the current law. Characterizing all pet owners as the cause of the Burmese problem in Florida just isn't going to float.

I totally agree. The argument is always way out on the edge of the curve for the total population. Statistically insignificant. That's the torch and banner they hold high, with their selective facts and embellishments of out of context irrelevancies.
That's not too scientific.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>Nope, not when you are talking about the general population of pet owners, irresponsible pet owners are a minority. It makes no sense to add repetitive legislation that will only affect responsible pet owners, the vast majority, since the irresponsible pet owners, the clear minority, are not following the current law.

The majority of automobile drivers are responsible drivers. Yet we still have all sorts of traffic and driving laws, drunk driving laws, etc, because of the minority that are irresponsible. That's the way laws often work -- the responsible majority have to pay for the irresponsibility of the minority.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Do you really believe what you wrote that the majority of drivers are responsible? Tell me when the last time you broke the law driving. I can bet that not one person on this forum can say that they have never gone over the speed limit but I can bet most people here can say they have never released an animal. The only thing that saves us from getting tickets is that most cops don't pull you over for doing less than 10 miles an hour over the speed limit. If the cops really started enforcing the speeding laws (like giving tickets for 33 in a 30 because afterall you are speeding) we would be up in arms calling them all sorts of farm animals and complaining of speed traps. The reality is that thousands are killed in this country by drunk drivers with thousands more being arrested for DUI. I myself know of dozens of people that have been arrested for DUI and almost everyone that I know that drinks has driven at least once after having "one too many". With that said I only know of 2 people personally that have ever released any reptile into the wild (with the proportion of people that I know that own reptiles is vastly more than those that don't). Now you tell me which area of our lives that needs to be banned or managed more tightly.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Very well put Josh and we don't BAN cars because of the "minority" that drive drunk. AMAZON DOC is correct BUT look at how different the issues of "bad drivers" and having a pet Burmese are dealt with by the politicians. With car's the individual is punished NOT every person with a driver's liscence. I have been in this business a LONG time and am only aware of just a few times where herps were deliberately released. AMAZON DOC'S ANALOGY WAS A GOOD ONE SHOWING HOW RIDICULOUS THE HERP KEEPER IS TREATED COMPARED TO AUTOMOBILE DRIVERS IN REGARDS TO IRRESPONSIBILITY...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Do you really believe what you wrote that the majority of drivers are responsible? Tell me when the last time you broke the law driving.

There shouldn't be a law in the first place, right? It is an imposition on most of us good drivers to be forced to obey arbitrary speed limits just because of the minority of people who get into accidents -- right?

>>I can bet that not one person on this forum can say that they have never gone over the speed limit but I can bet most people here can say they have never released an animal.

I can't. As I mentioned elsewhere, I released a turtle when I was 6. I have also released quite a few rehabbed birds over the years, although I know that doesn't really count in relation to this discussion.

>>The reality is that thousands are killed in this country by drunk drivers with thousands more being arrested for DUI.

Absolutely right. And the reality is ALSO that **millions** of animals are killed in shelters every year, because people can't be responsible enough to properly care for their own pets.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"Absolutely right. And the reality is ALSO that **millions** of animals are killed in shelters every year, because people can't be responsible enough to properly care for their own pets."

Of those millions of animals killed every year by shelters a significant number are surrendered because the animal is too old or sick to go on, shelters take in these animals in a humane manner in order to put them down, many people would say that the owner acted responsibly to end suffering, other animals are determined to be too dangerous either by the owner or by court order and these animals are also destroyed. Other animals escape, often at no fault of the owner, and are put down before the owner can locate them. Another source for surrendered animals are those families who for what ever legitimate reason (family illness, katrina etc. ) can not provide for their pet, they go out of their way to ensure that the animal is turned over to the shelter, often they hold onto the belief that their pet will be re-homed. Many of these are not placed and this also makes up a significant amount of the total number, again this is not the fault of the owner.

Calling all pet owners who surrender a pet irresponsible (or an idiot), and I hope that you are not doing that, is irresponsible. It only undermines animal welfare efforts. Ruin the public's trust and the perception that they will be received and treated with respect when they work with a shelter or rescue organization will result in more abandoned animals.

Much of your language and arguments, see above for an example, tends to fall in line with the animal rights crowd. You may be aware of that and you very well be on board with their agenda. If you are not take the time to really think about what you statements mean and how counter productive they are to the very efforts we all want, to stop people from abandoning their pets. If pet owners have issues, and we all do, then they will need help. Please do not deter them from seeking help by labeling them irresponsible and an idiot in public forums such as this one.

>>"Absolutely right. And the reality is ALSO that **millions** of animals are killed in shelters every year, because people can't be responsible enough to properly care for their own pets."
>>
>>Of those millions of animals killed every year by shelters a significant number are surrendered because the animal is too old or sick to go on

That's baloney. Go walk through a shelter some time, and you'll see that it's packed with kittens and puppies.

>>Calling all pet owners who surrender a pet irresponsible (or an idiot), and I hope that you are not doing that, is irresponsible.

Oh, I'm not calling ALL of them irresponsible or idiots, really. I'm engaging in a bit of hyperbole when I say "people are idjits". But a lot of them are, and it gets REALLY tiring to deal with them.

Let's run down the list of dogs I and my rescue are caring for right now, and take a look at just how responsible their former owners were:

1. giant male doberman: dumped at a shelter at 3 months old along with two brothers, by the breeder, who dumped them when the breeder couldn't sell them. I still have him, because he is too neurotic to be adopted out.

2. male doberman: abandoned in his back yard when his military family transferred out.

3. male doberman: originally rescued as a puppy stray. Adopted out, then came back into rescue as an adult when the adoptive owner let him get lost. The adoptive owner never contacted us to let us know that he was lost, and when he was found he was wearing a prong collar that had been on him so long that he had calluses at every prong point. No, we didn't give him back to the adoptive owner.

4. male doberman: given to rescue along with his brother when his original owners decided they couldn't afford to feed them.

5. male doberman: picked up as a stray, no owner could be found.

6. male doberman: A lady called us, saying that she had found two stray dobes. Wanted us to take them. I told her that we didn't currently have foster space, but I'd be happy to go evaluate them and put them on our list of dogs that we try to find places for. I made an appointment with her to go see them. Went to the appt, but the lady was not home. I waited half an hour. I could hear the dogs barking in the back, and there was a doberman sign ("Doberman Crossing" on the front of the house. I tried to contact the lady, but I couldn't get her to answer the phone. A few days later, two dobermans matching the same description showed up in the local shelter. They were wearing old (not brand new) name tags, WITH THAT LADY'S NAME ON THEM. Obviously they had been her own dogs, not strays.

7. male doberman: stray, along with his mom. Terrible skinny condition. Found out much later that both dogs had only been missing for one day before they had been found. No, we didn't give them back to the original owners/breeders.

8. female doberman: stray, no owner located. Too neurotic to adopt out.

9. male pit mix: found sitting at the side of a busy state highway.

10. female dalmatian: dumped at a shelter by the breeder. The breeder left a note with the dog about what a good breeder [bleep] she would be.

11. female dobe: stray, obviously bred many times. Adopted out, then returned by adoptive owners because the dog didn't appreciate having a house full of strangers two days after the adoption (Thanksgiving family reunion). At the time of the adoption I had been assured that there would NOT be a lot of strangers in the house while the dog settled in.

12. female dobe: stray, obviously bred many times. Adopted out, then returned by adoptive owners because the dog is afraid of thunderstorms. btw, her fear is easily handled by crating -- but the adoptive owners couldn't be bothered to do that.

13. female dobe: mother of #7 above.

14. female dobe: relinquished to rescue along with her sister, I don't remember the reason right now. Adopted out, then returned by adoptive owners because the dog was keeping them up at night. It turned out later that they had a possum in their attic. I tried hard to get them to figure out WHY the dog was keeping them up, but they couldn't be bothered.

15. male dobe: stray, no owner found. Scars around neck indicate a collar had previously been grown into the neck. Can't raise his head normally, probably because of damage from being on a chain. Adopted out, then returned to rescue because the owner moved and left the dog with her ex-husband. The ex got tired of taking care of it and #16, returned them both to us.

16. female dobe: I think she was originally a stray...can't remember right now. Adopted out, then returned with #15. Now has serious arthritis from an old knee injury of unknown origin.

17. female dobe: dumped at the front gate of an animal shelter.

18. female dobe: stray, no owner found. Too neurotic to adopt out.

19. pit/lab/whatever mix female puppy: dumped on my road.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"That's baloney. Go walk through a shelter some time, and you'll see that it's packed with kittens and puppies."

I have walked through a shelter, I have worked in them and I have been the guy that had to put the animals down.

Bottom line, not every animal that goes to a shelter is there because of an irresponsible pet owner. Some need to be destroyed for health and safety reasons and shelters take them in because some people can not afford to go to veterinarian. In other situations life happens and to state that you know why people turn in their animals is unlikely if you truly feel the way you do. It doesn't sound like you are willing to get to know them our their situations. Sadly, animals are neglected, but to trash people in general who surrender pets is completely irresponsible on your part. I would never suggest anybody use your rescue organization because of your attitude. Like I said, you need to reflect long and hard on how you represent rescue in general.

"One of the essential truths you learn while doing rescue -- people are idjits."

You can try and rationalize your way out of this but if you continue to characterize pet owners the way you have knowing how you are being received then it is hateful on your part.

>>"That's baloney. Go walk through a shelter some time, and you'll see that it's packed with kittens and puppies."
>>
>>I have walked through a shelter, I have worked in them and I have been the guy that had to put the animals down.

Then you should know better than to make excuses. btw, years ago when I lived in a different state I was one of the vets working at one of those shelters.

>>Bottom line, not every animal that goes to a shelter is there because of an irresponsible pet owner.

Nope, not every one. But waaaaaaay too many of them.

>>I would never suggest anybody use your rescue organization because of your attitude.

Unfortunately, we don't need to go out looking for business. It comes beating at our door every day. We get a lot more requests than we can handle as it is.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"Then you should know better than to make excuses"

I do not have to make excuses, the point is that there are legitimate excuses for people to surrender their animals and for euthanizing animals.

For example, some animals are turned over specifically to be put down to avoid suffering due to health conditions.

>>"Then you should know better than to make excuses"
>>
>>I do not have to make excuses, the point is that there are legitimate excuses for people to surrender their animals and for euthanizing animals.
>>
>>For example, some animals are turned over specifically to be put down to avoid suffering due to health conditions.

I never said otherwise. Once again, you are arguing a claim that hasn't been made.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"The majority of automobile drivers are responsible drivers. Yet we still have all sorts of traffic and driving laws, drunk driving laws, etc, because of the minority that are irresponsible. That's the way laws often work -- the responsible majority have to pay for the irresponsibility of the minority."

Nope, wrong again.

Most of your driving laws target individual behaviors and the resulting enforcement/punishment is to the guilty (court date) individual. If I accept your logic then every time some one drinks and drives every driver should have to pay a fine?

With regards to reptiles we have laws in place about neglect, abuse, pet dumping etc. The current trend is not to improve or enforce these laws, it is to pass punitive legislation against reptile ownership in general. The end result will be that law abiding citizens will comply, those who refused to follow the law in first place will continue to break the law so passing additional laws will have little affect to stop the behaviors that they are designed to end. And, additional laws may actually cause more pet owners to dump their pets!

SIR, YOU BEAT ME TO THE PUNCH [OR POST] AND ONCE AGAIN IS AN ELOQUENT POST..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

But...we don't ban driving all together, now do we?
We hold INDIVIDUALS accountable for their actions, with liability insurance, criminal penalties, civil judgments.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>But...we don't ban driving all together, now do we?
>>We hold INDIVIDUALS accountable for their actions, with liability insurance, criminal penalties, civil judgments.
>>jsc
>>-----
>>"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
>>John Crickmer

On top of this, all the regulations (permits, driving tests, registration) haven't prevented people from driving drunk or driving recklessly (ie, acting irresponsibly.) Not sure why there is so much demand for government regulation on things, given that history has shown that responsible behavior can't be legislated, at least in a free society. It can only be punished, and the punishment should, like you guys are saying, be given to those being irresponsible, not to everyone.

Not at all. Ron Magill first and foremost is a joke in the reptile/animal community. He is a great showman, but is FULL of B.S. when it comes to animals. He puts on a show for the media, cause thats what they want to hear, and brings publicity to the zoo. Other then that, he not an expert of any sort, just exactly what you said, a communications director. Just happens to know lots of media and puts his face whereever and whenever he can on T.V.

Saying that, Albino burms have been found, but not int he everglades, and and not breeding, etc. They have been found under a car, or in a back yard, recently escaped, or stolen and dumped.

ALL SNAKES CAUGHT IN THE GLADES ARE RELATED. Out of 157 captures that were tested, 154 were DNA related, as in sister/brother/mom/father not lond distance related etc. That was one large population. The other three were not related to those, but were from a different locality, and were related to themselves. But of course you will not hear that.

>>Not at all. Ron Magill first and foremost is a joke in the reptile/animal community. He is a great showman, but is FULL of B.S. when it comes to animals.

Actually, he's got many years of herp experience. He started out at the Miami Serpentarium, and then worked his way up through the zookeeper and curatorial ranks at the Zoo. But since you yourself admit that albino burms HAVE been found in the wild, his personal qualifications are kinda irrelevant here anyway.

>>ALL SNAKES CAUGHT IN THE GLADES ARE RELATED. Out of 157 captures that were tested, 154 were DNA related, as in sister/brother/mom/father not lond distance related etc. That was one large population. The other three were not related to those, but were from a different locality, and were related to themselves. But of course you will not hear that.

You're kind of misrepresenting the results of this study. Yes, the population was, for the most part, genetically homogeneous -- but that does NOT imply a relationship as close as you are claiming. It simply means that there was not major segmentation in the populatio. As stated in the paper:

"The lack of genetic differentiation of most Burmese Pythons in ENP may indicate either a panmictic freely interbreeding population in the Park, or alternatively, limited genetic variation in the captive- bred populations that are the likely source of these snakes. "

"Our results indicate that the Python molurus bivittatus populations in Everglades National Park are not genetically structured. However, there are competing hypotheses for this lack of structure. It is possible that the python population in the Park is freely interbreeding or panmictic. There are no significant geographical barriers in ENP to this species as the Burmese pythons are adept swimmers and climbers, and radio tracking of individual snakes has revealed movement across large distances in the park (Mazotti et al., 2007). Alternatively, lack of genetic differentiation may indicate a population originating from a genetically depauperate source population in the pet trade."

Also, not to quibble too much, but there were actually 4 outliers found (not counting the control snake from a pet store) -- not 3. And no, the paper did NOT say that they were closely related to each other.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"not to quibble too much"

Come on Doc, you do quibble too much and that is to your liking

>>"not to quibble too much"
>>
>>Come on Doc, you do quibble too much and that is to your liking

Well......I was just trying to keep the record straight while also indicating that the exact number of outliers is not terribly important.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

At least you are good at it.. : )

He may have worked through, but his actual knowledge and actual hands on, are not up to par at all. If you have seen ANY of his interviews, or shows, you can see all his misinformation, etc, not even knowing the right name for certain animals, reptiles.
Like this is a alligator snapping turtle, when it was a softshell, but it snaps like an allligator! lol.
he is very tv oriented. anything he says is taken with less then a grain of salt. He blames the pet industry for snakes that havent been sold in Miami in YEARS and for snakes in the glades that we all know the main origin of.
Names of interest: Mike Powell, Blackwood Roadside Zoo( or similar name) and other roadside attraction on 41 that got hit hard. The game officers even say so, and know so as they were called out to heklp round up animals, and no one did naything to find the missing burms.

I didn't want to name names but since you did that was and is who I was referring to in my other post...Let's also NOT forget Kallam Assad from Bangladesh where I personally saw MANY, MANY loose Tegu's, Chameleons, etc. many, many times who I personally asked to please tighten up or it would cause everyone problems. He, of course, did nothing about it....The era of irresponsible dealers or keepers is over. We must ALL speak to the people who could cause the Industry HUGE PROBLMS although FWC wrote Kallam many tickets when they should have pulled his permits to sell....Ron Magill is NOT a knowledgeable herper by any stretch of the imagination and he who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones. I've known Ron a long time.......
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You know back when I still had cable I remember watching some animal cop show on the animal rights network. They were trying to catch a bunch of tegus and a big water monitor at some restaurant down in south fl. They go looking for the source for these escapees and lo and behold down the road......is the guy I used to get my brookesia chameleons from. Obviously it was a serious problem but it was a bit humorous at the time.
Here in Cent. fl. there is a reptile dealer who was notorious for turning things loose. My wife and I stopped into his facility (probably 14 yrs ago now.) and found an emaciated savannah monitor in the parking lot. I picked it up and brought into him assuming it had escaped. I was shocked when he said it must be one of the ones he let loose. He told me I could have it if I wanted it. I told him I did not to which he told me "well go throw it in the bushes over there". Obviously I decided at that point to keep it. It died a few days later. At the time my wife was working at an animal attraction on I-drive in Orlando that had some permit problems around the same time which involved fwc. My wife and I both mentioned this story to the fwc officer. I do not believe it was ever followed up. This same individual is responsible for the colony of red-headed agamas that can be found at the intersection of 17-92 and the 417 in Sanford. While obviously this individual is at fault for what he was doing, how much is the fwc to blame for doing nothing about what was obviously an on-going problem? It makes you wonder how many other introductions are the result of them turning a blind eye to other similar situations. A friend of mine once jokingly went through dick bartlett's book on fl. reptiles and pointed out what dealer's locations coincided with with the range locations of certain introduced populations of animals in the books' range maps. We can't paint all dealers with the same brush but some of the bad apples need to be dealt with so this type of thing stops.

I wonder how some Podocnemis species got into some of the ponds at Metro-Zoo?...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"Ron Magill first and foremost is a joke in the reptile/animal community. He is a great showman, but is FULL of B.S. when it comes to animals. He puts on a show for the media"

If that is the top guy in Metro zoo the guy who was recently on Animal planet show on exotics in Florida than I agree.
He truly is a media (bleep) and knows that by saying what they want he gets media air time.

PETA couldn't have a better friend if they tried . I would never believe a thing that comes out of his mouth as have never heard anyone distort things like he does.

Btw are you the owner of Snakes at Sunset ? My friends dad bought turtles from you guys think 2 yrs ago loves them lol. They live in his yards pond .