Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First off I'm from TX so I won't presume to know the big snake market in FL.
But I have to say all this talk about people releasing burms sounds like crap to me.
All things being equal in TX the bigger the snake the bigger the price tag. Especially if you have a snake that is getting some real size(over 14 feet).
Even a normal Burm with no RI that is 14 foot or bigger that is a $300.00 snake, MINIMUM. Why would anyone let an animal go that is worth more now than when they bought it? They would'nt.
So why has'nt anyone(USARK) pointed out this little tidbit of information. A wild nasty Nile Monitor, maybe. But a healthy well establshed adult Burm? I don't know about FL but n TX there is still a market for those.
My favorite is " when they get 20 feet they can't take care of them and they have to let them go."
FLORIDA MEDIA AND WILDLIFE My name is Danny Conner and I will give you $1,000.00 CASH for every 20 foot healthy burm you find.D.C.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really work that way.

They have "amnesty" days, where people can give up their unwanted snakes and other critters. Owners regularly give up large pythons during those days. They had video of just one of those days in one of those burm programs....I think it was the Nat Geo one, but I couldn't swear to it...and it was amazing to see what people were turning in.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Releasing into the wild is very different than adopting out, although I am not arguing that pet dumping does not happen. It does take an investment in time, money and emotions to care for a reptile long enough for it to grow up to a large size. The connection that pet owners have to their pets is a powerful motivator to do the right thing. A better understanding of what conditions/behaviors that lead up to pet dumping is important. I would think those organizations that truly care about the welfare of the animals would look to support the pet owner at risk.

>>Releasing into the wild is very different than adopting out, although I am not arguing that pet dumping does not happen. It does take an investment in time, money and emotions to care for a reptile long enough for it to grow up to a large size. The connection that pet owners have to their pets is a powerful motivator to do the right thing.

People dump 12 year old dogs that they've raised from pups all the time. And people also dump pricy purebred dogs all the time. Neither investment cost nor ivestment time keep people from dumping animals when those animals become inconvenient.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

With what frequency? Just because it does happen doesn't signify that it is common place or characterizes pet owners in general. Pet dumping when compared to pet surrender is rare. Far more animals will be turned in for adoption then will be dumped. Furthermore, inconvenience is rarely the case, usually pets are dumped because the pet owner can not afford to keep the pet and there is a reluctance to turn the pet over to a shelter because of the high kill rate.

Also, I have worked at multiple shelters, rehabs, and animal rescue organizations. Individuals surrendering large (14 foot burms for example) or other expensive reptiles as described by Danny was in my experience rare. I had plenty of ball pythons (have any of these been found in the Glades?), some red tails and iguanas turned in but never any really large burms or retics. Not saying that it doesn't happen, it is just not common in my experience. If it is common in Florida now it maybe because of the annual $100 permit fee combined with a microchipping requirement. I'm sure these animals are now considered a liability by many prospective buyers and the market maybe saturated with pets that were once affordable. These fees may also facilitate pet dumping as well, which was one of the arguments we used in Georgia to reject legislation based off of Florida's experience.

>>With what frequency? Just because it does happen doesn't signify that it is common place or characterizes pet owners in general. Pet dumping when compared to pet surrender is rare. Far more animals will be turned in for adoption then will be dumped. Furthermore, inconvenience is rarely the case, usually pets are dumped because the pet owner can not afford to keep the pet and there is a reluctance to turn the pet over to a shelter because of the high kill rate.

You are an optimist. Having spent years in veterinary medicine and rescue work, I myself am quite cynical about the frequency and reasons for dumping. I've been there, done that, and got several t-shirts.....unfortunately.

As a semi-related aside, I've currently got a puppy that I picked up in the middle of my road two weeks ago. In fact, she just got spayed today. She's just about 12 weeks old, and at the time I found her she was about 10 weeks. Too young to travel terribly far on her own. The road I live on is 2 1/2 miles long, with not a single side street -- and she was about a mile up the road. Obviously, she had either wandered off from somebody's house on the road or had been dumped there. So I put "found puppy" signs at each and every house for about 1/2 mile in either direction and at the end of the road, I called the shelter to get on their found dog list, and I put found puppy ads in TWO newspapers. And you know what? Not a single call. Conclusion -- dumped puppy. That sort of thing happens allllll the time.

>>
>>Also, I have worked at multiple shelters, rehabs, and animal rescue organizations. Individuals surrendering large (14 foot burms for example) or other expensive reptiles as described by Danny was in my experience rare.

Well, large burms ARE relatively rare, for one thing. Especially depending on location.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Pet dumping occurs, but far more animals will be turned in then will be dumped. So with regards to what Danny said, large python dumping hysteria doesn't make sense and I completely agree with him. Trying to rationalize that it does make sense because people are turning over pets to an amnesty program after an annual $100 permit fee and microchipping requirement has gone into affect doesn't hold much water.

>>Pet dumping occurs, but far more animals will be turned in then will be dumped.

I'd like to see your data supporting this claim. It may be true....or it may not. I dunno!

>>So with regards to what Danny said, large python dumping hysteria doesn't make sense and I completely agree with him. Trying to rationalize that it does make sense because people are turning over pets to an amnesty program after an annual $100 permit fee and microchipping requirement has gone into affect doesn't hold much water.

Fortunately, I never said or implied that's what I'm doing.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"I'd like to see your data supporting this claim. It may be true....or it may not. I dunno!"

Animal Control Departments have public records that may hep, such as the number of registered animals, numbers of surrendered animals, numbers of abused,neglected animals that have been reported or cited, and number of complaints considering pet dumping and feral animals.

Additionally, private nuisance animal control and shelters also keep records of animals surrendered, rescued or caught.

>>Animal Control Departments have public records that may hep, such as the number of registered animals, numbers of surrendered animals, numbers of abused,neglected animals that have been reported or cited, and number of complaints considering pet dumping and feral animals.

Ohh, I know that. But the shelter intake records are never going to tell you about all the animals that are dumped out in the country and never make it to the shelter. That's why I was interested in seeing if you actually had any data behind your claim.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

animal control response to abandoned animal calls and creates reports based off the their findings. Rural municipalities and counties keep records too. Dumped animals usually either head to the nearest residence in search of help/food or stay where they were abandoned in hopes that their owner will return. Some may never trust humans again and avoid contact but they usually still generate a lot of calls. Records are fairly accurate, its not rocket science, nor is it difficult to establish if a pet has been dumped.

>>animal control response to abandoned animal calls and creates reports based off the their findings.

Many....perhaps most, I dunno....abandoned animals never make it to the "animal call" stage. No call = no record.

For instance, even the puppy I have right now will never be recorded on any "dumped animal" list. I reported it as a "lost" puppy, sure -- but that won't be on the shelter's dumped dog lists, and animal control won't have any record of it at all.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

States should have similar laws and procedures, but they do vary, Georgia OCGA 4-8-3 is for our abandonment code. Our officers have a duty to investigate and enforce code if a violation is noted. Regardless if the call results in a citation or not the calls are recorded according to how they are reported by the public. Abandoned animals generate calls.

>>Abandoned animals generate calls.

Some do, sure -- but many don't.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Well like I said I live in TX not FL. If amnesty days are bringing in all these animals this supports the fact THIS IS A FLORIDA PROBLEM.
If you base retail cost off of Kingsnake Classifieds larger more established animals are always more expensive than juveniles.
I get that prices in FL are probably cheaper than the rest of the country and I hear stories of Rescues being over run with iguanas and boas and burms. Typically these are 8-10 foot burms not 14-16 foot snakes. And I have'nt heard of any pieds being turned in.D.C.

>>If you base retail cost off of Kingsnake Classifieds larger more established animals are always more expensive than juveniles.
>>I get that prices in FL are probably cheaper than the rest of the country and I hear stories of Rescues being over run with iguanas and boas and burms. Typically these are 8-10 foot burms not 14-16 foot snakes. And I have'nt heard of any pieds being turned in.D.C.

I don't know why you would think that it has to be only the really big snakes that would be released...and you lost me on the reference to the pied...
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The media like to say Burms get up to 20 feet. The next words out of their mouths "once they get to big the owner can no longer care for them. The general public reads this as pet owners are releasing 18-20 foot burms.
Obviously 10 feet or even 8 feet is going to be to big for an ill prepared owner but this is not the medias inference.
Pied...Bivattus said people were calling the zoo trying to dump pied ball pythons and other expensive animals.D.C.

>>The media like to say Burms get up to 20 feet. The next words out of their mouths "once they get to big the owner can no longer care for them. The general public reads this as pet owners are releasing 18-20 foot burms.
>>Obviously 10 feet or even 8 feet is going to be to big for an ill prepared owner but this is not the medias inference.

Ohhhh. Well, does the "media's inference" really have much to do with the real-world possibility of burms being dumped, one way or the other?

>>Pied...Bivattus said people were calling the zoo trying to dump pied ball pythons and other expensive animals.D.C.

People do dump expensive animals all the time. I myself own two double yellow-headed Amazons that I got for free. I also know of dobermans that cost their owners more than $1000 that were dumped into rescue. It happens, whether it makes any sense or not.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The whole "dump" line IS the medias story.
Has a person here or there released a python in S. FL
Probably so. But the majority I believe were released by natural disaster. I don't believe 5000 or 500 or even 50 people have purposely let their snake go. Maybe I'm naive.
I think the word dump for our purposes needs to mean released into the wild. Or even set free in an urban environment.
With that definition in mind were your Amazons dumped or turned into a shelter. There are many reasons for an expensive dog to end up at a shelter particularly if it had already been spayed or neutered. Once again giving to a shelter or an amnesty day is much different than throwing your pet python over your back fence. D.C.

>>The whole "dump" line IS the medias story.

But it doesn't matter what **size** they are dumped at -- burms could be dumped at nearly any size, not just the monsters.

>>Has a person here or there released a python in S. FL
>>Probably so. But the majority I believe were released by natural disaster. I don't believe 5000 or 500 or even 50 people have purposely let their snake go. Maybe I'm naive.

I think you are a bit naive in a general way about people dumping pets -- but I don't know which force (intentional pet release, weather-related accidental release, or whatever) was responsible for the majority of Glades burms.

>>I think the word dump for our purposes needs to mean released into the wild. Or even set free in an urban environment.

I think you also have to consider the forces that lead to releases into the wild. For instance, there are many shelters that accept dogs and/or cats without question -- but it may be harder to find a shelter to adopt large constrictors. Therefore, people who want to be rid of dogs or cats are likely to have more options than those with the big snakes.

>>With that definition in mind were your Amazons dumped or turned into a shelter.

Ha! Amazons that are set free aren't terribly likely to end up back in cages. One of mine was about to be euthed because the owner didn't want it back after it went through a long illness and ended up with only one eye (she ordered euthanasia, but I talked her out of it) -- and at that time, it was only about 2 years old (she's 12 now); the other one essentially came to me because the owner didn't want to deal with clipping its toenails on a regular basis. Neither one went through a shelter.

>>There are many reasons for an expensive dog to end up at a shelter particularly if it had already been spayed or neutered.

Yup. Just like there's many reasons for expensive herps to end up getting dumped.

>>Once again giving to a shelter or an amnesty day is much different than throwing your pet python over your back fence.

But remember -- those amnesty days just started recently, and shelters might not accept large snakes. The owners' options may be limited if they decide to be rid of their snake.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Certainly they can be dumped at any size.
But if you think that does'nt matter you could'nt be more wrong.
If you dump a 16 foot 150lb Burm chances are unless there is a big bull gator nearby that snake will be the baddest sob in that neck of the woods.
If, however, you dump a hatchling or a juvenile that snake may not make to the next day.
In the first scenario you have a large established animal that just needs to find shelter. She could hide and chill for 2 years and probably be okay.
The second scenario you have a nice fat piece of spaggheti that every predator in the glades can and will eat.
I have said before, less than 1% of crocodilians ever reach adulthood. I have to think big pythons are the same. Why else would they lay 40-50 eggs. D.C.

>>I have said before, less than 1% of crocodilians ever reach adulthood. I have to think big pythons are the same. Why else would they lay 40-50 eggs. D.C.

Oh, I agree with you. But you are acting as though only the monster snakes will survive. You've even been seeming to exclude the 8-10 footers.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I never said 8-10 footers would'nt survive. What I said was a 16 footer would be more likely to survive than a juvenile or hatchling.
YOU said that the size of snake released did'nt make any diffence.
Clearly that is wrong. Or they would'nt lay so many eggs. D.C.

So the Amazons were'nt dumped.
Good for you for not killing the bird. Don't know if the illness caused infertility or not. Seen plenty of breeding parrots missing more than one eye. Maybe she was'nt aware of the one eyed parrot market. For a one eyed pirate ...priceless
The other bird maybe the person knew you had "one eye" and knew if you could love "one eye" surely you would embrace one with unmanagable toenails.
Either way neither bird was dumped and in a weird way I respect the first owner that she did'nt release the bird.
As far as reasons to let go highend reptiles, well wrong again.
If it is HEALTHY and EXPENSIVE and there is a LEGAL market for it there is no reason to dump it.
MOST reptile people are eager for the animal to be established big enough not to have to worry about it.
A lot of the times you buy a dog it is because it is a puppy and even more often with the cat/kitten thing.
If cats stayed kittens everyone would have 2.
There is absolutely no comparison between expensive dogs and reptiles. I have both(and cats) and the reasons I have all these animals are vastly different.
You are right many more options for unwanted cats and dogs a lot of them are not pretty. I've known people who had those jobs (euthanizing pets)and while they had those jobs they did'nt much like people. D.C.

That is a very good point, people who buy dogs and cats often do because people like puppies & kittens, and very often do so without forethought - "won't this make a nice gift" and such.

I do think this "its so cute, and I'll love it as a baby" happens with birds (especially the larger parrots) and iguanas & turtles as well (especially red eared sliders, who start out as cute little quarter sized reptiles, but with proper care are quite different in a few years), but in the case of many reptiles, like larger snakes, and even common rescue species like sulcatas, even large "unwanted" ones are not often freely given away. A larger sulcata, over 15", and even a male, is not really a cheap animal to acquire, and even most rescues charge a market, or slightly below market fee for the animal. Many people would want that creature. I don't know how many folks look at a baby Burmese python and think, how cute, I'll get it and like it while its little - I think the bulk of folks who do not know what they are getting into do so knowing what a large snake its going to be, and are just ignorant about the care.

It takes time and money to get that animal large. Healthy individuals are worth money, and even stupid careless people who do not think about their animals...like money.

Come to think of it, most of of the "adoption fees" I have seen on larger albino burms are 200.00 Larger normals are often around 100.00 and up.

I think that indicates they are not "valueless" animals as long as a legal market in them is allowed.

>>So the Amazons were'nt dumped.

Oh, they were dumped -- we're just using different definitions of the term. That's okay. My point was just to illustrate the fact that people get rid of expensive animals all the time.

>>As far as reasons to let go highend reptiles, well wrong again.
>>If it is HEALTHY and EXPENSIVE and there is a LEGAL market for it there is no reason to dump it.

You just don't get it. People who decide to dump animals don't NEED logical reasons. Sometimes they can't find a good place for the animal to go. Sometimes they just can't be bothered to look.

People call me all the time, wanting me to take dobes off their hands. Right now I don't have any foster space, so I tell them that I'd be happy to help them by looking for a place for the dog to go, and sending the info out to other rescuers. ALL they have to do is send me an email with all the information they know about the dog. And you know what? Hardly ANY of those people can even be bothered to send me that email. They want magic solutions that don't require any actual effort on their part -- and if they can't get the magic solution, off the dog goes to the shelter. Or off to be dumped on the quiet country road, in the case of my current puppy.

It's the same way with a lot of people who decide to get rid of animals of whatever species. They want instant, simple solutions. We are turning into a culture of instant gratification, not of logic and forethought.

>>There is absolutely no comparison between expensive dogs and reptiles. I have both(and cats) and the reasons I have all these animals are vastly different.

The essential comparison here is that people get rid of both.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I agree, people just can't be bothered.

I'll bet in many a case the snake gets neglected and run down. Hungry, sick, and angry. A serpent with Mites can be a very angry critter. Snakes with enteritis, retained shed, RI, Stomatitis, you name it...not happy campers. You wouldn't be either in their situation. I wrote a care sheet about such things many years back. I'll have to find a copy and get it on the net somehow.

Sometimes it's like with the parrots. Once an animal turns mean, they never revert back to gentle. It's like they never forget or forgive the last bad episode/trauma they've endured. Loose all trust. Snake suddenly becomes untrustworthy and "dangerous" [through no fault of it's own]. Must get rid of it. Where has all the love gone.

Other reasons for getting rid of an exotic include relationship changes. New girlfriend/boyfriend. She/he won't have it. Or, new baby. Understanding spouse suddenly intolerant of snake around infant.

One more that comes to mind is change of address. Can't take. No room. New landlord will not allow. Etc.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

That's not dumped they gave them up.
I worked as a bartender and a medical officer at a jail.
An AZA zoo and a reptile park. I'm 52 years old.
I understand how stupid people are. I understand how irresponsible people can be.
I've lived out in the country for 25 years. Every cat(all 25 in 30 years) I've ever owned was a dump. My current dog was a dump.
Beautiful, young, healthy, intelligent dog. Dumped.
I understand.
But comparing dogs to snakes is assinine.
- Many more dogs are sold than pythons.
- But highend. MUCH MUCH larger percent of pythons are highend than dogs. Forget percentage I think there are more snakes over a $1,000.00 than dogs in this country. So highend dogs is a little of a misnomer.But lets say someone spends $500.00 for a Dobie. The same person spends $500.00 for an albino ball.
The person gets promoted at work their free time goes to nothing.
She does'nt have any free time. The Dobie is bored.
The dog craps on her $10,000.00 Persian rug. He is chewing up her Ethan Allen furniture. Yesterday he snapped at her 14 year old cat. He is eating her out of house and home.
Not interested in breeding and being responsible she spayed the dog long ago.
She has'nt had time to hit the pet store the ball python has'nt eaten in 3 weeks.
No logic involved. She loves the dog, she thinks the python is cool.
WHICH animal is this woman going to be more desperate to be rid of? Which animal will she be more willing to take a bath on and lose her original $500.00.
People will give up their pets, absolutely. But more people release dogs and cats than snakes. Not just percentage wise.D.C.

>>That's not dumped they gave them up.

Again, we are simply using different definitions. In rescue parlance, "dumped" usually means various forms of "abdicated all responsibility for the animal" -- as in "they dumped it on us". It doesn't have to mean release to the wild.

>>I've lived out in the country for 25 years. Every cat(all 25 in 30 years) I've ever owned was a dump. My current dog was a dump.
>>Beautiful, young, healthy, intelligent dog. Dumped.
>>I understand.
>>But comparing dogs to snakes is assinine.

No it isn't. The basic reasons for dumping are the same in both: convenience, expense of upkeep, behavioral issues. Just ask Cindy, if you don't want to believe me.

>>Forget percentage I think there are more snakes over a $1,000.00 than dogs in this country.

Oh, no way. Just go to a dog show some day. But this claim isn't really important in relation to the dumping excuses, anyway.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I have been given some very expensive animals including an older pair of very talkative (but quite aggressive and territorial) import Blue Fronts & a an older import Greenwing Macaw from owners who either inherited them, or no longer wanted to deal them. I will say that in NONE of those cases do I believe that turning the animals loose into the wilds of this state, or any other crossed the folks minds. Of the animals I have been given, several of them were going to do things like post the animal free on craigslist, or turn it over free to the local pet shop though.

I know many people offer an animal for "free" and if you say yes, I'll take it, then they try to get you to pay for it. I wonder if the pied ball python incident was such a thing. I have had many folks ask me to come get an animal over the years, or If I would take it, and then when you meet them, they expect you to pay them something for it.

I really think folks "letting animals go" is a significant minority, at least regarding exotics. I think its slightly more common in the case of turtle owners (I have had people tell me about the sliders they have released when they "got too big" who believe they are "doing the right thing" for the animal, and possibly fish owners. I have taken in a few fish who were going to be illegally added to a local waterway by careless people.

I do know I have spoken with some religious folks (Buddhists, I believe) who HAVE purchased LIVE food market fish & frog& turtles, and then released them into the "wild" because they believe that gains them spiritual favor. I informed them that that is illegal, and not really good for animals or the environment, but I am not sure how much impact it made.

I know folks dump dogs & cats for fear the shelter will just put them down anyway.

>>I think its slightly more common in the case of turtle owners (I have had people tell me about the sliders they have released when they "got too big" who believe they are "doing the right thing" for the animal, and possibly fish owners.

When I was 6 years old, I was one of those people. =:-o

In FL, even!

I lived in Miami til I was 6. We had a red-eared slider. When we got ready to move (to Nashville), my mom took me out to some small waterway and released it. We have both learned a lot since then!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I have been reading this exchange and I think it is highly likely that Burmese pythons get dumped on a regular basis. Once they reach 6-7 feet and turn into eating machines, their less-than-committed owners are only too happy to release them. Correct me if I am wrong, but is there really a market for yearling and older Burmese? There are sellers, but are there buyers? Maybe years ago, but not any more. Once the novelty wears off and the owner gets tagged a couple times by a hungry burm looking for a rat, you can bet lots of them get dumped. The "hassle factor" from trying to sell a burm would not make it worthwhile. Easier to just dump it. Sad but true.

I'd like to hear about these "expensive herps" being dumped. A Granite Burmese is NOT an expensive herp by the way....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

" I also know of dobermans that cost their owners more than $1000 that were dumped into rescue."

I think you mean "surrendered", rescue organizations do not typically deal with "dumped" or abandoned animals. Legally a rescue organization has no authority to collect, hold or deal with unattended stay dogs, they are assumed and considered property until declared abandoned by animal control. Rescuing a stray could be considered theft since a domestic animal is considered property.

So the correlation that you are trying to make from your experience with a recuse organization with regards to dumped or abandoned animals may not be accurate.

Surrendering a pure breed doberman to a rescue organization that specializes in rescuing dobermans doesn't seem wacky or irresponsible to me. Isn't that your charter?? If I wanted my doberman to go to a doberman lover that is exactly what I would do. It would be worth the $1000 to me to ensure that my dog went to a good home.

Now if I didn't care about the welfare of the animal then that $1000 just might keep me from dumping him.

One problem with compairing a dog to a reptile as far as price goes is that a dog worth $1000 as a puppy is worth half that much the next day (sure there are a few exceptions of maby a show dog or a special breed or some rare liniage but I am talking about pure bred pet dogs) and even less as it grows up. If you get it fixed it worth $35 (thats what they sell for at the animal shelter) and if it bites or was beaten it is worth nothing. A $1000 snake even if it bites or barly eats or has a burn scar is still worth quite a bit.
As far as the comment somewhere above about all the rare morph reptiles offered to a zoo I think that is completely irrelevent to the topic of duping or rescues because many people who have a "rare" reptile they are thinking of getting ride of might offer it to a zoo believing that a zoo will want a "rare" reptile for display and will take good care of it and they can go see it if they want and tell there friends they donated there "rare" reptile to the zoo. I am sure most of the reps offered were sold when the zoo turned them down.
Of course reptile dumping has occured from time to time and some reptiles were let go on porpose to try to establish them but I don't think either are rampent as most of the media would like the public to believe.
I also have a question for everyone. how many people do you know who have intentialy produced normal berms in the last 10 years.
Rob

>>" I also know of dobermans that cost their owners more than $1000 that were dumped into rescue."
>>
>>I think you mean "surrendered", rescue organizations do not typically deal with "dumped" or abandoned animals.

ROFLMAO!!

I've been involved rescue literally all my life. My mom has been rescuing animals since I was 7, and I've carried on with it ever since leaving home. Trust me, we deal with a LOT of "dumped or abandoned" animals. LOL!!

>>Legally a rescue organization has no authority to collect, hold or deal with unattended stay dogs, they are assumed and considered property until declared abandoned by animal control.

You need to read up on your local animal laws. Most municipalities (all that I have checked, but there could be exceptions) have specific regulations for how to establish legal ownership of strays. For instance, in Knoxville (where I used to live) you must notify animal control that you have the dog, keep the dog for 7 days, then vaccinate it for rabies. Then it's yours. Not terribly difficult!

>>Surrendering a pure breed doberman to a rescue organization that specializes in rescuing dobermans doesn't seem wacky or irresponsible to me. Isn't that your charter?? If I wanted my doberman to go to a doberman lover that is exactly what I would do. It would be worth the $1000 to me to ensure that my dog went to a good home.

Oh, I don't think I said anything about whether that surrender was irresponsible or not. I was simply making the point that people DO get rid of expensive animals on a regular basis.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Animal Control agencies and appointed shelters generally are the only legal way to establish abandonment and assign new ownership. Private citizens have no right to confiscate private property. The process may be simplified to facilitate rescue but private rescue organizations that deal in stray dogs and do not go through Animal Control are liable. Animal Control are usually required to keep records indicating a wait period, in Tennessee I believe state code is 3 days, and they must show that all means of contacting the owner have been exhausted. Where I live the animal must be held by Animal Control for 14 days.

I've seen owners have their pets "rescued" and then take the rescue organization to court in order to recover their pets. No one wins in that situation. It's even worse when the pet is euthanized minutes before the owner comes by to take their pet home.

Read your local ordinances. I've already told you everything that is legally required in Knoxville. I haven't bothered to look up the local ordinance here, but I probably should. The only involvement needed by animal control is that they be notified that you have the animal.

If you'll tell me what town you live in, I'll try to look up the local ordinance for you.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

http://library6.municode.com/default-test/home.htm?infobase=10637&doc_action=whatsnew

Most enforcement occurs at the county level but some city and state courts may have oversight too. Counties in our state can have additional code but usually state code is cited during enforcement.

72 hours tends to be the standard for determining forfeit, one side of Atlanta is or was, been a few years, 72 hours while the other side is 5 days. Other counties in our state can be up to 14 days.

Your ordinances don't spell it out as clearly as Knoxville's does, but yours do say "Owner means any person, firm, corporation, partnership, association, or other legal entity that owns, harbors, keeps, has lawful possession of, or has control or custody of any animal. An animal shall be deemed to be harbored if it is fed and/or sheltered for three (3) or more consecutive days."

The Knoxville ordinance says (notice that I said 7 days previously -- this actually says up to 10 days max): "Sec. 5-21. - Keeping stray animals; failure to surrender stray animal.

(a)
It shall be unlawful for any person in the city to knowingly and intentionally harbor or keep in possession by confinement or otherwise any animal which does not belong to him without permission of the owner unless he has, within seventy-two (72) hours from the time such animal came into his possession, notified the unit ("unit" means AC). Upon receiving such notice, an animal control or police officer shall take such animal and place it in the animal shelter or allow temporary custody not to exceed ten (10) days, during which time a notice containing a description of the animal, the date and place where the animal was found, and the name, address and telephone number of the temporary custodian shall be posted at the animal shelter. If the animal is not reclaimed during this time, the custodian of the stray animal will relinquish the animal to the unit or police department or assume ownership, provided he agrees to and complies with section 5-77 within four (4) days from the time the unit receives first notification. The expense of license fee and vaccination must be assumed by the owner if the animal is reclaimed."

In practice, of course, AC has virtually NO desire to take these animals to the shelter, as long as the person who found them is willing to take responsibility for them. When we accept strays we always go above and beyond the law. We call AC, put up signs, AND advertise in the paper, even though the signs and paper aren't legal requirements.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"In practice, of course, AC has virtually NO desire to take these animals to the shelter, as long as the person who found them is willing to take responsibility for them"

AC may have a duty to seize an animal, and desire all depends on the individual and the circumstances, in my work as an AC officer we could never revoke property rights until very specific procedures were followed. Additionally, we never assigned rights either, but we did enforce adoption requirements and we did do health and welfare checks. Dogs that qualify for adoption also required the prospective owners to qualify for ownership which was facilitated at another shelter after the animal was transported. We did not want the public perception that we gave away the family pet to the next door neighbor.

I could leave, or recognize, the dog in the custody of an individual other than the owner which was not assigning ownership, the distinction is important because if I saw a violation I could still hold the individual who was in control of the animal responsible, but I could never violate the individual right of private property while out in the field by arbitrarily assigning new ownership. Usually if the dog did not have tags or proof that the person in care of the animal was directly associated (i.e. roommate) with the owner and a violation was observed (i.e. dog was running loose) then I would seize the animal. My duty was to protect the animal and the public and I could have been liable if the dog was hit by a car or attacked a child.

Also, most rescue groups were on the up and up, but I've had to take a few to court because they were animal hoarders. Not saying that this is common or that is what you all are about, but it is something we had to deal with.

>>"In practice, of course, AC has virtually NO desire to take these animals to the shelter, as long as the person who found them is willing to take responsibility for them"
>>
>>AC may have a duty to seize an animal

No, they don't. Read that ordinance again. "Upon receiving such notice, an animal control or police officer shall take such animal and place it in the animal shelter or allow temporary custody".

Animal Control keeps a log book of lost and found animals. When you call in to tell them that you've found a dog, they put it in their log book along with your contact info. That's ALL they do, and it's all that they have a legal "duty" to do.

>>and desire all depends on the individual and the circumstances, in my work as an AC officer we could never revoke property rights until very specific procedures were followed.

Right. AFTER a dog is in the shelter, the SHELTER has to follow the 3 or 5 or 7 day hold time, depending on jurisdiction. But that hold time does NOT have to be done at the shelter. The person who found the dog can do it as well, as long as AC is notified.

>>Additionally, we never assigned rights either, but we did enforce adoption requirements and we did do health and welfare checks. Dogs that qualify for adoption also required the prospective owners to qualify for ownership which was facilitated at another shelter after the animal was transported. We did not want the public perception that we gave away the family pet to the next door neighbor.

Sure. Those are SHELTER requirements. That has nothing to do with assuming ownership of a stray that has never made it to the shelter.

>>I could leave, or recognize, the dog in the custody of an individual other than the owner which was not assigning ownership, the distinction is important because if I saw a violation I could still hold the individual who was in control of the animal responsible, but I could never violate the individual right of private property while out in the field by arbitrarily assigning new ownership.

Nobody said you could. You are arguing a claim that has never been made.

>>Also, most rescue groups were on the up and up, but I've had to take a few to court because they were animal hoarders. Not saying that this is common or that is what you all are about, but it is something we had to deal with.

Sure. No argument there. In fact, just last week a terrible case of rescue abuse went to trial right here in TN. It was even a doberman rescuer, up in Johnson City. There is still no word on what happened to 12 or 14 missing dogs. Rescuers can be idjits too!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"Nobody said you could. You are arguing a claim that has never been made."

Doc, I'm not arguing what happens in your state, I'm sharing with you my experience down here.

Again, my experience with AC and stray animals is that an animal can be left under the control of someone who is not the owner only if they are directly related in some way to the owner, which is assuming that the owner is aware and OK with this. I could never leave a dog in the custody of someone not associated with the owner. If someone were to report a violation, i.e. stray animal, no tags etc., then there is a duty to enforce code which should result in an AC officer visit. The AC officer also has a duty to protect the animal's and public's welfare and a duty to respect private property. All of our animals that were declared abandoned went to the humane society shelter for adoption because there were specific things that needed to happen before the dog could go back out for adoption, i.e. determination that the animal was suitable for adoption with regards to health and temperate, and screening for potential owners. The owner would also have to sign some agreement requiring shots, registration and spay and neutering. We in turn would do the follow up to ensure that these things were completed if they they were not done at the shelter. In our state a rescue organization could never resolve issues and determinations of private property.

>>"Nobody said you could. You are arguing a claim that has never been made."
>>
>>Doc, I'm not arguing what happens in your state, I'm sharing with you my experience down here.
>>
>>Again, my experience with AC and stray animals is that an animal can be left under the control of someone who is not the owner only if they are directly related in some way to the owner, which is assuming that the owner is aware and OK with this.

I'm sorry, but your "experience" is simply wrong. Read the ordinances again. I've already quoted the relevant portions.

In fact I tried to call DeKalb County animal control just now in order to check your county's policies directly. Unfortunately, they are closed for the weekend. I'll try again on Monday!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"I'm sorry, but your "experience" is simply wrong. Read the ordinances again. I've already quoted the relevant portions."

My experience is right, also you haven't quoted the relevant portions of the ordinance because you do not even know what county I worked in.

"An animal shall be deemed to be harbored if it is fed and/or sheltered for three (3) or more consecutive days."

If we go by the ordinance you quoted than my understanding of harbored means that if you have an animal under your control your are legally responsible for it, it doesn't mean that you can take your neighbors dog from him and three days later he is yours. For example, harborage is a term I use to use to write tickets when an individual would say "thats not my dog, it's my room mates" or "the dog is just visiting".

What I think is more relevant is after 5 days:

(g) If the owner of the impounded animal cannot be located, then such owner shall be conclusively presumed to have given consent to the adoption of the impounded animal, or to have given consent to euthanize the animal in accordance with O.C.G.A. § 4-11-5.1 and § 4-5-1 et seq.

>>"I'm sorry, but your "experience" is simply wrong. Read the ordinances again. I've already quoted the relevant portions."
>>
>>My experience is right, also you haven't quoted the relevant portions of the ordinance because you do not even know what county I worked in.

Oh, my bad! You posted animal ordinances for Dekalb County, so I made the assumption that the ordinances you posted were actually relevant to your discussion of your own experiences. It seemed like a reasonable assumption at the time. (shrug)

If you'll tell me what county and state you actually did work in, I'll be happy to look up the relevant ordinances for you.

>>If we go by the ordinance you quoted than my understanding of harbored means that if you have an animal under your control your are legally responsible for it, it doesn't mean that you can take your neighbors dog from him and three days later he is yours.

Nobody ever claimed that you "can take your neighbors dog from him" at all. Yet again, you are arguing a claim that nobody has made.

We're talking about STRAYS here, remember??

>>What I think is more relevant is after 5 days:
>>
>>(g) If the owner of the impounded animal cannot be located, then such owner shall be conclusively presumed to have given consent to the adoption of the impounded animal, or to have given consent to euthanize the animal in accordance with O.C.G.A. § 4-11-5.1 and § 4-5-1 et seq.

Right. That's for IMPOUNDED animals. Once again -- we are talking about STRAYS here, not animals that have already made it into shelters.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

First you posted this:

"If you'll tell me what town you live in, I'll try to look up the local ordinance for you."

Then this:

"Oh, my bad! You posted animal ordinances for Dekalb County, so I made the assumption that the ordinances you posted were actually relevant to your discussion of your own experiences. It seemed like a reasonable assumption at the time. (shrug) "

I think you are so caught up in arguing that you are forgetting what you have asked. I posted the ordinance for Dekalb, where I live, because that was at one point relevant to your discussion. So yes, my good, your bad.

Keep in mind that when reading the regulations they were written for code enforcement, not for rescue work. Much of the insight I have also comes from seeing cases play out in court. Issues of private property are very touchy once lawyers get involved.

"In practice, of course, AC has virtually NO desire to take these animals to the shelter, as long as the person who found them is willing to take responsibility for them"

So, one more time I will address your statement. With regards to stray dogs and my experience;

1) They are considered to be private property, much like an illegally parked vehicle, you can not take one home with you just because of a minor code violation if you are not the owner.

2) If AC is notified, or sees a violation, they have a duty to respond in order to enforce code, i.e. dog running at large, a duty to protect the stray animal and to protect the public from the stray. The media would be all over us if the stray dog attacked someone after we had contact with the animal and failed to either return it home or seize it. Not every AC Officer discharges his duty to standard, but that does not negate the fact that the primary mission of AC is to enforce code and catch stray dogs. That is why we are called "dog catchers", we make our living by catching stray dogs so that we can bring them to the shelter.

3) Because stray dogs are considered to be someone's private property we can not give them to you until after we establish that the owner no longer has a claim to his property. Once that is done, and your state may have some variation on the process, then new ownership can be established via what ever process the county dictates.

I hope this provides some meaningful insight to you and hopefully it will be helpful to your rescue work.

"In fact I tried to call DeKalb County animal control"

With regards to where I use to work, no you can not have that information. You are well outside the circle of trust. In fact, this thread is really starting to get stupid.

>>With regards to where I use to work, no you can not have that information. You are well outside the circle of trust. In fact, this thread is really starting to get stupid.

It passed stupid a looooong time ago. You can keep saying things that aren't true just as long as you like, but that will never make them become true.

I just called Dekalb County Animal Services. In your county, here's what you do to establish ownership of a stray if you don't want to take it to the shelter:

1. check for ID, including a microship
2. make a "good faith effort" to find the owners
3. the dog is yours after **three days** (the hold time at the shelter is 5 days, but for a private finder it is 3 days)

That is ALL that is legally required in your county.

I specifically asked the AC officer if AC had a "duty" to come out for a stray if I didn't want to take the stray to the shelter. She specifically said NO.

Give it up, SgtStinky. On this one, you are simply wrong.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"On this one, you are simply wrong."

No, I'm right.

Anyone can verify by simply calling the Dekalb county number for stray dogs, 404-294-2996. I spoke with Mrs. Walton and she confirmed what I posted was in fact how Dekalb AC officers conduct themselves. She also stated that the only way for a citizen to establish new ownership with a stray animal was for an AC officer to take the animal to the shelter for 5 days so that they could establish that there is no claim to ownership. She even stated "how are we to tell that you do not have your neighbor's dog?" She also stated that they would need to spay or neuter and She was unaware of your 3 day process.

Mrs Walton also insisted on sending an AC officer over up until I told her that there was no stray, that the dog in question was hypothetical. This reinforces my point that AC has a duty to respond. Responding to stray animals and possible violations is the primary mission of AC, it is like saying that a cop can choose to respond to bank robbery or not. It is doubtful that you spoke to an actual AC officer since they do not answer phones or work dispatch.

>>"On this one, you are simply wrong."
>>
>>No, I'm right.
>>
>>Anyone can verify by simply calling the Dekalb county number for stray dogs, 404-294-2996.

Oh heavens. Now we've got dueling phone answerers.

Well, it's Saturday again and they're closed. I'll be out of town on Monday, but I'll try to remember to call them back again on Tuesday.
-----
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Just got to throw this in here somewhere. Remember when I commented on how badly people in my area treat their pets? This happened 2 days ago. That would have been about the day after my post.
A week earlier, my neighbor had 6 dogs. Now he has 3. The other day he came over and accused me of doing something to/with his dog. I honestly thought he was referring to one of the smaller ones I hadn't seen in a few days. That one had bitten me several times as I attempted to put up a fence between us. I had told him about it. He told me, no not that one, that it had been run over, along with another one just the other day.
I assured him I did not do anything with his big female Boxer. He accused me of doing it in retribution for him turning off my water. Then he said it was probably the water company, because I'd told him I had called them over the turn off. Then he said maybe it was the neighbor on the other side, because they have reported the dog before. He believed the dog had been picked up by AC.
Did I leave out the part about him being drunk?
All pretty strange. Oh yeah, he did accuse the neighbor across the street of running over his two that were hit by cars, because they were the ones that had called him to let him know. ha ha ha. Talk about personal responsibility.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Yup -- unfortunately, that sort of idjit is all too common!
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Oh, P.S. -- yes, you certainly CAN get into legal trouble if you don't follow the legal procedure. Which is why we are always very careful to do so.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

And my point like so many others. The dogs were expensive to purchase. They have'nt retained their value. The snake has become more valuable as it reaches sexual maturity.
Obviously certain morphs drop in value as they become more common.
But nothing like the practically instantaneous drop of an expensive puppy. Especially if it's neutered.D.C.

>>And my point like so many others. The dogs were expensive to purchase. They have'nt retained their value. The snake has become more valuable as it reaches sexual maturity.

Hmmm....

If you search using the term "burmese" on Craigslist pet sections today, you'll find the listings below (nation wide). From these listings, it looks like burms are mostly being advertised for $100-$300 no matter what the size or morph (the more common morphs, anyway), with a few outliers in either direction.

First, my favorite of all: "Free albino Burmese python... 4 Feet Long, all white. It's lives in my basement if you can remove it you can have it! It was my neighbours pet..."

baby het albino, size not stated -- $50
baby normal, size not stated -- $50
4 ft normal -- $50
normal het albino, size not stated -- $60
3 ft albino -- $60
albino, size not stated -- $75
2 ft normal -- $75
3 ft normal het granite -- $100
5 ft het for green -- $100
6 ft normal -- $100
6 ft normal -- $100
albino, size not stated but looks at least 8 ft or so -- $100
12 ft normal -- $100
baby albino, size not stated -- $125
baby albino, size not stated -- $125
albino patternless burm, size not stated but 6 mo old -- $125
3 ft het for granite -- $125
4 ft normal -- $125
albino, size not stated -- $150
albino, size not stated but looks around 4-5 ft -- $150
5 ft granite -- $150
5 ft albino -- $150
9 ft normal -- $150
9 ft normal -- $150
9 ft normal -- $150
14 ft normal -- $150
baby albino, size not stated -- $175
3 ft albino -- $175
7 ft albino -- $175
11 ft albino green -- $175
3 ft albino -- $200
6 ft normal -- $200
6 ft albino -- $200
6 ft albino green -- $200
7 t normal -- $200
11 ft albino -- $225
8 ft normal -- $230
12 ft normal -- $250
normal, size not stated but looks around 7 ft -- $275
albino, size not stated but 3 yr old -- $300
4 ft normal -- $300
9 ft labyrinth -- $300
10 ft albino -- $300
baby green het granite, size not stated -- $400
7 ft albino -- $400
10 ft albino PLUS 8 ft normal PLUS 180 gall tank -- $450
4 1/2 ft albino -- $500
12 ft albino -- $1000
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

This value/logic discussion brings to mind my personal experience of delivering my Radiated Tortoise along with one or two other tortoises to the San Antonio Zoo the day before my military induction in 1972. It was intended for a friend there. It was his day off. He always claimed he never got it. I believe him. He wouldn't lie to me. Oh well.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Well I guess it's okay to give away someones pet if it ends up in your yard or house????
Anyway I don't think I would buy a het off Craigs List if it did'nt have a genetic marker. Not positive but I don't think any of those do.
As far as the list goes it pretty much proves my point.
The cheapest snakes were all 4 foot or smaller.Babies/Juveniles.
The bigger they got the more expensive they got. There were varibles because some people are a little more optimistic.
Some people probably more desperate and some of the animals probably were'nt in perfect health.
If you were to put a comparable list of expensive breeds by the time you reached animals that were 8-10 years old you would'nt be able to give them away.
Obviously there are exception a show dog might spike in value if it does well in the ring.It could be more valuable than it was a puppy. But these are rarities. D.C.

>>Well I guess it's okay to give away someones pet if it ends up in your yard or house????
>>Anyway I don't think I would buy a het off Craigs List if it did'nt have a genetic marker. Not positive but I don't think any of those do.
>>As far as the list goes it pretty much proves my point.
>>The cheapest snakes were all 4 foot or smaller.Babies/Juveniles.
>>The bigger they got the more expensive they got.

Nope. There were 12 ft normals priced at $100, and 4 ft normals priced at $300. 3 ft albinos priced at $60, and 3 ft albinos priced at $200. 12 ft albinos priced at $1000, and 11 ft albinos priced at $225. Once the price got over $100, size didn't actually have all that much to do with price.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

No it has plenty to do with price. Of course there is a ton of objectivity in prices. THIS SURPRISES YOU???
11foot albino $1000. to high
12 foot albino 225. to cheap
Once again this is assuming healthy animals. No mites, no RI.
D.C.

>>No it has plenty to do with price. Of course there is a ton of objectivity in prices. THIS SURPRISES YOU???

I think you mean "subjectivity" in prices.

When people are giving away 10 ft burms free, nope, size doesn't have a whole lot to do with the price.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The main thing to remember is something is only worth as much as someone will pay for it. On CL people use the excuse of not being able to house a Ball python as they do for Burmese. Just because someone wants 1000 dollars for a python does not make it worth that much. In CL case I doubt they ever get that for a Burmese unless they found the latest person to fall of the ol' turnip truck. My friend got a albino Ball for free as were my last 2 Jungle Carpets.It goes without saying the two different types of people selling on CL. Local breeders who know what they are selling and the pet owner which may not.CL can only be a marginal measure of the average or slightly above average layman does with their animals.

>>The main thing to remember is something is only worth as much as someone will pay for it. On CL people use the excuse of not being able to house a Ball python as they do for Burmese. Just because someone wants 1000 dollars for a python does not make it worth that much. In CL case I doubt they ever get that for a Burmese unless they found the latest person to fall of the ol' turnip truck. My friend got a albino Ball for free as were my last 2 Jungle Carpets.It goes without saying the two different types of people selling on CL. Local breeders who know what they are selling and the pet owner which may not.CL can only be a marginal measure of the average or slightly above average layman does with their animals.

Absolutely true.

Unfortunately, it is the exactly the "marginal", "average layman" (and below) who will be likely to dump their snakes when the care and/or expense get to be too inconvenient for them.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Most of the people I deal with in that situation are quick to see my logic and hand the animal over rather than just release it. On the other hand, if more people than I think do let their pet loose we can agree that if they were going to populate anywhere outside of south Florida they would already be there. Here in southern California we have a fairly large number of constrictor owners as well as dealers. Not as much as Florida but I would imagine we are in the top 5 areas with the highest percent of pet constrictor/humans. In my 33 years in the state we have never had a winter warm enough for a constrictor to survive.

>>On the other hand, if more people than I think do let their pet loose we can agree that if they were going to populate anywhere outside of south Florida they would already be there. Here in southern California we have a fairly large number of constrictor owners as well as dealers. Not as much as Florida but I would imagine we are in the top 5 areas with the highest percent of pet constrictor/humans. In my 33 years in the state we have never had a winter warm enough for a constrictor to survive.

I think you could probably make a good argument for that.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Just for added interest -- especially notice the 9 and 10 footers for free, $25, and $50 --

10 ft normal -- free
10 ft normal -- $25
baby normal, size not stated -- $50
4 ft normal -- $50
9 ft normal -- $50
normal, size not stated -- $85
baby albino, size not stated -- $90
granite, size not stated -- $140
2 ft albino -- $150
2 ft albino -- $150
albino granite, size not stated -- $175
baby albino, size not stated -- $200
7 ft albino -- $200
10 ft albino het labyrinth -- $250 (lister claims he paid $950)
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Congrats!!! After looking at thousands of ads on CRAIGSLIST (these are desperate people in a desperate time) you managed to find a couple of free Burms.
I know an 8 year old Dobie with hip dysplesia who put 200 stitches in the owners niece last summer. Free to good home. Says he paid $500. for him.
Big Deal.
You have shown no proof of how the majority of dogs retain their value much less increase in value over the course of their life.
Because they don't!
Obvious to anyone who is bored enough to still be reading this thread.
Just like you can find any statistic to back up bogus claims, you can find "free Burms".
If one person pays $50. for an albino and 5 years later charges $100. The snake increased in value.
If another person paid $150. for an albino and 5 years later sold it for 175 the snake increased in value.
What the market supports will play a role in all this, as will the increased production of morphs causing a drop in prices.
But all this still does'nt change the fact that snakes increase in value as they mature and dogs decrease.
This is as simple as I can explain it. If you still don't understand I apologize for not being able to educate you in such a basic principle.D.C.

>>Congrats!!! After looking at thousands of ads on CRAIGSLIST (these are desperate people in a desperate time) you managed to find a couple of free Burms.

Tsk, Danny. I reported every single Craigslist burm ad that I found with a price in it. I didn't pick and choose in order to support my case.

>>I know an 8 year old Dobie with hip dysplesia who put 200 stitches in the owners niece last summer. Free to good home. Says he paid $500. for him.

Absolutely. People lose money on dogs just like they do on snakes. As I've been trying to tell you -- "value" does NOT determine whether an animal is dumped or not.

>>You have shown no proof of how the majority of dogs retain their value much less increase in value over the course of their life.
>>Because they don't!

I've never claimed that they DO. Therefore I don't need to prove it.

>>This is as simple as I can explain it. If you still don't understand I apologize for not being able to educate you in such a basic principle.D.C.

I'll stick with the "principle" of looking at facts rather than fantasy, thanks.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Actually value in reptiles plays a BIG part whether their dumped or not. DO YOU EVER SEE PIED OR ALBINO BALL PYTHONS IN A RESCUE SITUATION! NOT ONE!!!Why is that do you suppose? Out of ALL the Ball Pythons out there do you see any morphs offered? Yes, value plays a BIG part in reptile rescue....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Actually value in reptiles plays a BIG part whether their dumped or not. DO YOU EVER SEE PIED OR ALBINO BALL PYTHONS IN A RESCUE SITUATION! NOT ONE!!!Why is that do you suppose? Out of ALL the Ball Pythons out there do you see any morphs offered? Yes, value plays a BIG part in reptile rescue....

I'm not involved in reptile rescue, so I can't tell you whether those specific morphs turn up with any regularity or not. Perhaps Cindy can answer that, if she notices this post. However, I CAN tell you that there's a pied ball for sale on the Knoxville craigslist today for the relatively low price of $700, and a 100% het pied ball on the Tampa craigslist available for a whole $50. So if none have showed up in rescue yet, there's a good chance it'll happen before much longer!
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

In ball pythons I get loads of normal males, thats about it.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

Amazon Doc, you heard her and you have sent me copies of rescued herps offered as I wanted to see for myself. Your statement that value plays no part of herps that are dumped is FALSE. I've said it and DC said it but you keep arguing that point WHICH IS FALSE. I feed male Ball Pythons to my Ophiophagus....You are misleading everyone with statements like that...You can NOT compare herps to Dobermans and as DC said herps retain or increase in value where dogs DO NOT...THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DOGS AND HERPS AND I DON'T JUST MEAN PHYSIOLOGICALLY..DC is right and you are wrong in your comparison...Sometimes I think you're just misunderstood and at other times you seem to be a HSUS clone in sheep's clothing. Your answer to someone else that you buy animals etc and what PETA person does that etc. claim doesn't hold water as many of our enemies have, buy, sell animals routinely. They just think that ONLY they should be allowed that privilege not everyone else...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Amazon Doc, you heard her and you have sent me copies of rescued herps offered as I wanted to see for myself.

Tom, you should never never assume that the petfinders site shows all the rescued animals of ANY species in the country.

>>Your statement that value plays no part of herps that are dumped is FALSE.

Fortunately, I never said that value plays NO part in dumping herps. What I said was that value does not DETERMINE whether a herp is dumped or not. Value may play a PART in the decision, but it is not the sole determining factor.

>>You can NOT compare herps to Dobermans

Of course you can, Tom. As Cindy has herself reported, the reasons for dumping herps into rescue are quite similar to those for dumping dogs.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Of course price determines whether a herp is dumped or not even if its a "part" as you claim which of course every other person on this site but you would readily agree with is everything. THE PRICE IS WHY EXPENSIVE HERPS ARE NOT DUMPED. THEY ARE SOLD TO FOLKS LIKE ME AND THAT IS NOT DUMPED BUT SOLD. Cheap herps and mammals are dumped unfortunately but NOT sold. THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Yes I give het male Pieds away for $15 each and I bet that that's what's on Craigs List. Bottom line is Pieds are not regularly nor is ANY SPECIES OF EXPENSIVE HERP REGULARLY "DUMPED"....Your statement that they are is false. Animals possibly, but expensive reptiles are NOT regularly rescued..
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Yes I give het male Pieds away for $15 each and I bet that that's what's on Craigs List. Bottom line is Pieds are not regularly nor is ANY SPECIES OF EXPENSIVE HERP REGULARLY "DUMPED"....Your statement that they are is false.

Cmon, Tom. If you're going to accuse me of making false statements, at least use statements that I've actually MADE. As I believe I've said before -- I don't feel any need to defend claims that I haven't made.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I have fallen and I can't get up.

You have repeatedly said that value plays NO part in reptiles being dumped. THAT IS FALSE...THANKS
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I'd like to see some of the released Burm morphs. What, there aren't any? Maybe a few albinos, but they're cheap, now.

>>You have repeatedly said that value plays NO part in reptiles being dumped. THAT IS FALSE...THANKS

No, Tom, I haven't.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

It is a FACT AND NOT A FANTASY what DC is trying to explain to you.Either you just don't get it or refuse to accept the truth....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

High end herps that can no longer be kept by their owners are routinely privately placed with reputable market makers.

Craig's List is not a legitimate herp vending market. Craig's List specifically forbids it. That re-homing/rescue/adoption routine is just a fraudulent way of getting around the rules.

People that sell Herps on Craig's list are generally not of a sophistication and caliber to know exactly what they are selling. They are either misinformed, incorrect, or lying.

In the Ball Python market, Any "Het." Ball Python of any morph is just as likely as not, to be a normal Ball Python, unless the breeder/circumstances/provenance is well known.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>High end herps that can no longer be kept by their owners are routinely privately placed with reputable market makers.

Right.

>>Craig's List is not a legitimate herp vending market. Craig's List specifically forbids it. That re-homing/rescue/adoption routine is just a fraudulent way of getting around the rules.

Again, right. (Although at least one person who frequents this board -- it may have been brd, but I don't remember for sure -- has admitted recently that he has sold a good number of herps on Craigslist.)

>>People that sell Herps on Craig's list are generally not of a sophistication and caliber to know exactly what they are selling. They are either misinformed, incorrect, or lying.

Absolutely right again. Unfortunately, this is exactly the sort of person who is at higher risk of dumping those herps if they don't sell.

>>In the Ball Python market, Any "Het." Ball Python of any morph is just as likely as not, to be a normal Ball Python, unless the breeder/circumstances/provenance is well known.

Again, I agree. In this case, though, the seller had the litter and posted a pic of a pied littermate.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I have sold at least 200 snakes on the Tampa Craigslist over the last several years. I happen to know what I am doing, and I know what I am selling. Breaking their rules, yes, do I care, no. I sell a lot of het albino, het anery male boas on there as normals. I buy hey albino, het pied male balls and sell them as normals on there as well. I can't tell you how many imported balls I have sold on that site. Now that I think about it, I have probably sold more then 200 snakes on Craigslist. Will I continue to sell on Craigslist, yes. If you know how to word your ads on that site, you will do just fine.

brd, I think that would be pretty much normal and acceptable in Tampa. Tampa is just about ground zero for the herp trade. No offense or denigration of any individual was intended in my post. I was speaking in very broad country-wide terms.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

They may "dump" expensive animals regularly but NOT expensive reptiles.....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Being a Florida resident myself, I am all for pet amnesty day. Pet Amnesty day happens in city's all over Florida now.
People turn in all kinds of snakes, birds, and small animals. Here is a link to more information about it. You can apply to adopt the animals people turn in. A friend of mine got four burms and an anaconda at the last one at Busch Gardens, all animals people turned in. People can turn in these animals with no questions asked, which means if they do not have the proper permits for the animals they have, they will not get in trouble. Either copy and paste the link below or click the word link, and it will take you to all kinds of information about pet amnesty day.

http://www.myfwc.com/WILDLIFEHABITATS/Nonnative_index.htm

I put the link in wrong spot. click link

Here are some pics of things turned in. At pet amnesty day, you can turn in anything, regardless of what it is. You would be amazed at what people turn in.

Link

That Retic should be worth some money.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Great post. As with just about everything else regarding this issue, the "irresponsible owner" stereotype has little to no evidence, logic or common sense to support it. Have a few idiots released pythons and other snakes into the wild? Sure. Is there evidence to support that it is typical or even mildly common? No. Another thing to consider is that if snake owners were so irresponsible, there would be ball pythons and boa constrictors all over the place!

Before someone points out that ball pythons and boas don't get as large as burmese pythons, go to your local Craig's list and see how many ball pythons and boas are being offered because the owner doesn't want them or can't keep them anymore.

>>Before someone points out that ball pythons and boas don't get as large as burmese pythons, go to your local Craig's list and see how many ball pythons and boas are being offered because the owner doesn't want them or can't keep them anymore.

But I bet they're a lot easier to place in those new homes than the big burms...
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Another thing to consider is that if snake owners were so irresponsible, there would be ball pythons and boa constrictors all over the place!

Maybe bcs, but I doubt balls. In the first place they don't get as large so they're not as inconvenient to the owners. In the second place, when they get stressed out they tend to starve themselves -- so they are probably less likely to get established.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

There is an established colony of boas in South Florida. If you click the pet amnesty day link you will find it. I am posting the link here as well that will take you to the page. Some people believe that the colony of boas are the Letecia species (I think I misspelled that). They have been there for years. People refer to them as the Deering Estate Boas. Here is the link, or click the word link at bottom.

http://www.myfwc.com/WILDLIFEHABITATS/Nonnative_CommonBoa.htm
Link

>>There is an established colony of boas in South Florida. If you click the pet amnesty day link you will find it. I am posting the link here as well that will take you to the page. Some people believe that the colony of boas are the Letecia species (I think I misspelled that). They have been there for years. People refer to them as the Deering Estate Boas. Here is the link, or click the word link at bottom.
>>
>>http://www.myfwc.com/WILDLIFEHABITATS/Nonnative_CommonBoa.htm
>>Link

I know there is an isolated colony of boas down there. My point was that if snake/reptile owners were as irresponsible as the scientists and media are making them out to be, ball pythons and boas would be loose all over the country. I don't know the exact numbers on ball pythons, boa constrictors and Burms, but I'd imagine there a a sh**load more pet ball pythons and boas than burmese pythons.

>>I know there is an isolated colony of boas down there. My point was that if snake/reptile owners were as irresponsible as the scientists and media are making them out to be, ball pythons and boas would be loose all over the country. I don't know the exact numbers on ball pythons, boa constrictors and Burms, but I'd imagine there a a sh**load more pet ball pythons and boas than burmese pythons.

I think it's a combination of factors. First, ball pythons don't get nearly as large -- therefore, they are not as difficult to keep nor as expensive to feed. Second, they are not nearly as hardy as burms -- so, in the hands of a truly irresponsible owner, they are more likely to die than to live long enough to be dumped. Third, I would bet that it's easier to rehome a ball than a burm. Fourth, they're simply gonna freeze in most parts of the country -- if they live long enough to make it into winter.

BCs are harder to explain. They don't get AS large as burms, but they still get to be hefty snakes -- and they're pretty tough, so they can survive neglect. Perhaps there's simply a better second-hand market for them?
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Ball Pythons are the snake that we get the most calls for at the zoo they out number the second most common animal (green iguanas) nearly 2 to 1. And we do get morphs offered to us we have had albinos, pastel, piedball and spiders all offered to us in the past year. This past year we have also started getting a lot of calls on albino retics and boas as well. So i'm sorry but the argument that more valuable animals are better taken care of dosen't hold a lot of water. We have even had a blackheaded python and blue tree monitor offered to us because the owner didn't want to deal with them anymore
-----
"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

"This past year we have also started getting a lot of calls on albino retics and boas as well. So i'm sorry but the argument that more valuable animals are better taken care of dosen't hold a lot of water."

Could that be because you live in Florida and the pet surrenders are directly related to the $100 annual permit fee and microchipping requirements? I would imagine that if you have seen a change in the last year it maybe because the market is now saturated and people can not place their reptiles with new owners as readily as they could have before the permit requirements came into affect. The reptiles in question may not be as valuable as they once were! This is exactly what I pointed out to our legislators up here in Georgia, if they wanted to create the conditions to facilitate pet dumping all they needed to do was follow Florida's lead. Now imagine the issues we will have if a national ban comes into law, our politicians will be directly responsible for creating the mess that they are trying to prevent, but don't think for a second that they will take the blame, it will be the pet owners who will be blamed!!!

If they ban all of the bigger snakes, I think you will see a ton of stuff being released. If owners can't breed, sell, or give away their animals, they will turn them loose. When you turn them loose, at least they have a chance at survival. If you have 100 boas and all of the sudden they are worthless, what do you do with them? Kill them, I don't think so. Florida will be over run with all kinds of stuff. The ENP will become a living museum for all kinds of stuff.

The sad part of it is, is that they already know this.

Piedball ball pythons huh? Sounds like someone is pulling your leg. I'm assuming they did'nt actually show up with the snakes you just "got a phone call"
A lot of people like to "donate" animals to zoos it makes them feel like a bigshot.
And the fact they called you does'nt mean their next move was to release the animal in the wild. So there is is no logic in your comment. Just because someone offers a zoo a high dollared animal does'nt necessarily mean that animal is'nt getting appropriate care all it means is they are ready for whatever reason to get rid of their pet. D.C.

Legitimate accredited zoos will not accept a snake or any other animal from an anonymous citizen, big shot or not.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I'm not sure what you mean by anonmynous?
If it's a baby in a basket maybe they won't take it. If you mean an everyday citizen you're crazy.
Now they are'nt suppose to give, sell or trade with private citizens. But as far as procuring animals from the private sector where the hell do you think all the rare animals are coming from?
If I have a pair of Gharials that drop 40 fertile eggs every AZA facility in the country that wants Gharials and don't already have them. They would be on the phone to me.
And if you don't think so you're just wrong.D.C.

That whole post about rescuing high end Ball morphs is ridiculous. Early on in the Iguana Forum someone told me that Albino Iguanas were being "rescued" and I think I offered $500 each for every one they could "rescue". THE ALBINO IGUANA "FIB" IS JUST ABOUT AS SERIOUS AS THE PIED BALL ET AL STUFF...I think the person said they thought that albino iguanas were in rescue and suggested I not breed them I believe...Anyone that cares to look can see it and my offer. NO ONE YET HAS FOUND ME A "RESCUED ALBINO IGUANA"...LOL
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I wonder if anyone has turned in any albino dobermans.

>>I wonder if anyone has turned in any albino dobermans.

Hell yeah! After all, it's the irresponsible idjits who breed the albino dobes in the first place....

But I can tell ya no zoo would take em.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Zoo's bought MANY, MANY albino hertps from me over the years so thats not true. Secondly zoo's kill many herps anyway. Take all my pure Cyclura lewisi for instance. I placed ALL mine on breeding loan between 2 ZOO'S and over a few year period the ZOO'S managed to kill every one of them. Don't start praising the merit's of ZOO'S. It depend's on the ZOO and the personal. I know MOST of them personally as I'm sure you don't. They [ZOO'S] are light years behind the private sector in terms of Herpetoculture. Did you know a certain FAMOUS S. CA ZOO kills ALL it's baby Fiji Iguanas and eggs. If they put any on loan to another ZOO that ZOO has to agree to destroy any offspring produced. The same is true for Komodo Dragons. Be careful praising the merits of the AZA as they have MANY skeletons in their closet more than the private sector does. Personally I try NOT to do business wth ZOO'S whenever possible because of their incompetance and I have an ax to grind over my Cyclura and other issues. What I'm saying is factual regarding the premeditated destruction of endangered species. It's a DIRTY LITTLE SECRET NOT WELL HIDDEN....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>Zoo's bought MANY, MANY albino hertps from me over the years so thats not true.

I was talking about albino DOBES, Tom. Not herps.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

>>Did you know a certain FAMOUS S. CA ZOO kills ALL it's baby Fiji Iguanas and eggs. If they put any on loan to another ZOO that ZOO has to agree to destroy any offspring produced. The same is true for Komodo Dragons.

Tom,

This is interesting. Any idea what the rationale is behind this policy? I don't want to speculate, but it seems like there would be better alternatives (for whatever problem they are trying to address) than killing the offspring.

Thanks,
Ed

I've been told personally that the reason is that the bloodlines are so well represented that production of more is not favorable to the long term survival of the species. Secondly regarding the Fiji Iguana's all of them including progeny technically still belong to Fiji and must never be traded, placed on loan, sold, etc where anyone else actually would retain ownership of the lizards. Any institution receiving Fiji's must agree to the ZOO'S terms before a loan is made. I believe the KOMODO DRAGON reasons are because all bloodlines here are heavily represented and there has been several discussions on the immediate destruction of viable eggs as soon as they're laid by several institutions. I personally discussed the Fiji Isle Iguana issues while sitting in the General Curator's office along with Tom Schultz, then the Curator of Reptiles. At the time I was purchasing all the excess Galapogus Tortoises both adults and juveniles from the Zoo. I think if they intend to destroy eggs or babies they shouldn't breed them in the first place. At the time I had CBW'S for all reptiles listed as Boidae, Iguanadae, etc not a specific one as they now issue. This is NOTHING NEW and has been going on for years. There is a book at the publisher now spelling out in detail some of these unbelievable policies and about myself and a few others that were involved with ZOO'S REGARDING THE AQUISITION OF REPTILES FOR THEIR COLLECTIONS. I believe it is illegal under the Endangered Species Act to carry out these policies as it requires intentional destruction of these Appendix 1 herps. There are some individuals in the private sector that have the knowledge, space, and facilities to take these unwanted progeny but that is a cardinal NO NO and I was told it wouldn't happen. Personally I believe it's similar to the Radiated Tortoise situation. Once the private sector received them the price on them has dropped because now radiata are very common. The ZOO'S do not want Fiji's, Komodo's or similar high profile herps to be in private hands because shortly they would be common as well. I am only RELATING personal knowledge as well as published articles about the Komodo's. I think it's terrible that this has went on in the past and likely still is happening....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Believe it or not I agree with you on this point. AZA is completely shooting its self in the foot in it's stubborness in not working with the private sector expecially in regards to PMP and SSP animals. I am 100% BEHIND BRINGING IN MORE PRIVATE SECTOR BREEDERS. The lack of cooperation between zoos, the private sector, and accademics is rediculus. And I admit there is more willingness by the private sector to help zoos then the other way around but this has to change.
-----
"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Can you say ELITIST mentality? Pure class warfare. Total socioeconomic discrimination. When rights become privileges. When privileges are regulated. When regulations ban private sector participation. Goin' down that long lonely road...and it ain't no snake road..I guess maybe it is...in a very cold ironic way.

"Johnny, if you want to have a lizard or a snake, you go to College and get a Biology degree. Then you can work at a Zoo and care for society's animals there. If you go for your Masters degree, you'll probably actually be able to interact with reptiles in the wild...provided there is enough grant money available." By the way, in this example, all Johnny's options are "govment" billets in one form or another. Did anyone catch that?

We all know what professional/institutional/academia's track record for success in these matters is...especially when you consider the costs. By their cost-vs-benefit standards, in analogy, one "govment" Anole would be worth several thousand dollars.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

This is nothing more than a continuation of the "Federal Lands Policy", which in itself has merit...pros and cons both.

The thing is -- this is that same policy taken to the extreme -- into our homes, yours and mine. Same players. Same rational. Just a whole lot more invasive and a whole lot more damaging and destructive to personal private property ownership in America. Yes Virginia, we are continuing down that long slippery slope and the velocity continues to grow exponentially.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Tom,

Thanks for the info. Not even sure what to say, this is pretty outrageous stuff. Like a friend of mine says, "Snakes are great, people suck."

Thanks,
Ed

>>Like a friend of mine says, "Snakes are great, people suck."

Oh My God, another sign of the Apocalypse. We actually AGREE about something. =:-o

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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I'M REFERRING TO ALBINO HERPS NOT DOBERMANS!!!!
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>I'M REFERRING TO ALBINO HERPS NOT DOBERMANS!!!!

Yes, but **brd** was referring to albino dobes. As was I.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Albino Dobes, what, I haven't seen any albino dobes.

Please stop...you're killing me!!!
I do like AD, but I just can't help laughing my butt off.
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>Albino Dobes, what, I haven't seen any albino dobes.
>>
>>

Oooo, I like that. I'm gonna have to save that one.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I realize that now and when I can stop laughing at brd's post I'll try to apologize for reading it wrong..LMAO
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Nope he showed up with it in hand it was a pied alright. Anytime someone calls about an animal we have them send us an e-mail with a pic attached so we can be sure of what they have everything I said we have been offered we have been offered.
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

Well I'll take your word for it.
But I have to say that guy was an idiot.
Why do you want a pic? Do you ever accept them? D.C.

We get pics to make sure people have what they think they have. We have had several albino retics that have turned out to be albino burms. And several rock iguanas that turn out to be greens. We have several local rescues that we work with to place the animals we get called about. The zoo itself almost never takes animals in fact in the three years i've been here we have accepted only two animals out of hundreds of calls
-----
"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

My hat is off to you folks for trying to help these people find a home for their pet.
More than what most zoos would do.
I'm sure most of your calls are for Burms, Spurs, Iguanas and Boas. I can't imagine a zoo taking any of those. Except for maybe an outreach educational dept. or something.
You got to keep answering the phone the next call might be a Galop, or Orinico or something.LOL
Good Luck
D.C.

Just the other day someone was offering a Sphenodon here so I sent them to the Humane Society so proper care could be taken of the poor reptile...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>But I have to say that guy was an idiot.

One of the essential truths you learn while doing rescue -- people are idjits. Cynical, but all too often true.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

YOU ARE SO RIGHT....AMAZON DOC, I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

"One of the essential truths you learn while doing rescue -- people are idjits. Cynical, but all too often true."

Doc, I've got to call you out on this.

If you are actively involved in rescue then you need to really take a long hard look at your attitude and how you are being seen by others. Many families that surrender their pets do so under duress. People loose their jobs, or they have health complications that impacts their ability to care for their pet, or the animal bites a child etc. Granted, some have meet my definition of an idiot but it has never been my place to judge them, and in fact I have always tried to understand their situation for what it is. If you truly feel that people are idiots then why would anyone ever trust you to help them rescue their pet? Please give back that been there done that T-shirt if you truly feel that way.

>>"One of the essential truths you learn while doing rescue -- people are idjits. Cynical, but all too often true."
>>
>>Doc, I've got to call you out on this.
>>
>>If you are actively involved in rescue then you need to really take a long hard look at your attitude and how you are being seen by others. Many families that surrender their pets do so under duress. People loose their jobs, or they have health complications that impacts their ability to care for their pet, or the animal bites a child etc. Granted, some have meet my definition of an idiot but it has never been my place to judge them, and in fact I have always tried to understand their situation for what it is. If you truly feel that people are idiots then why would anyone ever trust you to help them rescue their pet? Please give back that been there done that T-shirt if you truly feel that way.

I'm not in rescue to help the *people*. I'm in rescue to help the **animals**. But don't worry, I don't TELL the people that I think they're idjits.

As for biting a child -- that is almost always the parents' fault as well. Idjit parents. And we don't even accept dogs with a bite history. There's too much legal liability involved. So, unfortunately, the dog has to pay for the owners' idiocy. Again.
-----
----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"I'm not in rescue to help the *people*. I'm in rescue to help the **animals**. But don't worry, I don't TELL the people that I think they're idjits. "

Doc, let me see if I can help you out on this because I don't think you really mean what you are saying, I think you may be caught up in discussion.

This forum is basically for pet owners and the business that carter to them. Many of the pet owners reading this may find themselves surrendering their reptiles sooner rather than later because of recently passed legislation at their state level or, God forbid, pending legislation at the federal level. Calling people idjits because they can no longer afford to care for their pets or take their pets cross state lines when they move won't sit well on this board.

Furthermore, you can never separate the animal from the "people", please take the time to see their dilemma, sometimes it will break your heart, other times what you find may not be what you originally thought and what happens is that you have not only helped the animal, but you see how you have helped a person. It is also the gift of rescue, once you can help the animals AND the people then you can have your "been-there-done-that-shirt" back.

"One of the essential truths you learn while doing rescue -- people are idjits."

I won't disagree that many people are just that, across the board. I will say another (often overlooked) truth about doing rescue is that by continually seeing the negative side of pet ownership you become very biased.

It's like how my friend who worked with child services thinks no one should ever have children, ever. She saw so much misery, abuse and idiotic behavior. I can see how that can slant ones view to thinking that most people treat children that way, even if I don't think that is really the case. Do you think most people abuse their kids? I no more think that then I believe most folks would mistreat their animals.

I think rescue people, like the media sometimes forget about all the responsible folks who do right by their animals.

>>"One of the essential truths you learn while doing rescue -- people are idjits."
>>
>>I won't disagree that many people are just that, across the board. I will say another (often overlooked) truth about doing rescue is that by continually seeing the negative side of pet ownership you become very biased.

No argument there!
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

We also have a duty to be careful with how we represent our efforts and the families that we assist. For one, we do not have a right to slander people with abuse until after they have had their day in court. If we, as the frontline of animal welfare, can not act with respect and compassion then we do a disservice to our community by creating the conditions where people in need of rescue will avoid contact with us and thus unintentionally inspire animal abandonment.

I know Doc knows this, he is a smart guy, he is just caught up trying stay up on the postings. Keeping a smile on your face through all of this is never easy, but it is an essential part of the job if we want to be affective at what we do. The reward is getting to know the people you serve, sometimes you walk away realizing that first impressions are not always the case. My contact with families was usually more in depth with AC then with rescue because I would have to investigate, write reports, talk to lawyers and prosecutors, make court directed follow ups etc.

>>We also have a duty to be careful with how we represent our efforts and the families that we assist. For one, we do not have a right to slander people with abuse until after they have had their day in court.

Tsk. If you're going to start hollering about slander, then you really need to have a better understanding of what the term "slander" MEANS first.

"Slander" or "libel" apply to accusations of specific actions, not opinions -- and they must be made against specific people. If I say "SgtStinky has beaten his dog to death", and you are innocent, that is slander. If I say "SgtStinky is an idjit", that is simply an insult. You can't take me to court for calling you names, as long as I have not accused you of specific actions that you have not actually committed -- and you can't take me to court for insulting a group of people, either.

>>I know Doc knows this, he is a smart guy, he is just caught up trying stay up on the postings.

I am not ANY kind of "guy", sorry.

>>The reward is getting to know the people you serve

Once again -- I don't serve "the people". I'm in rescue to serve the ANIMALS.

Even Ed (natsamjosh) agrees with me on my general opinion of many human beings. As he said (I'm paraphrasing 'cause I don't want to go look up the exact quote) -- serpents are great, people suck.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

">>We also have a duty to be careful with how we represent our efforts and the families that we assist. For one, we do not have a right to slander people with abuse until after they have had their day in court.

Tsk. If you're going to start hollering about slander, then you really need to have a better understanding of what the term "slander" MEANS first.

"Slander" or "libel" apply to accusations of specific actions, not opinions -- and they must be made against specific people. If I say "SgtStinky has beaten his dog to death", and you are innocent, that is slander. If I say "SgtStinky is an idjit", that is simply an insult. You can't take me to court for calling you names, as long as I have not accused you of specific actions that you have not actually committed -- and you can't take me to court for insulting a group of people, either."

Never said you slandered anyone, but I could see how you are inclined to such behavior since you are already calling people idiots, which is my opinion.

Question, are you an animal rights advocate?

And I ask this question because you either like to argue endlessly with no regard to the point or you have an agenda, such as animal rights. Stating that you are here for the animals and not the people is the same junk that the HSUS puts out. Which is OK if you want to engage in that sort of debate, I just ask you to represent your position openly.

>>Question, are you an animal rights advocate?

I don't even believe there IS such a thing as inherent rights, for animals OR people. But that's a very long and involved philosophical discussion, which we probably don't want to get into here.

Next time you find an "animal rights advocate" who breeds and sells chickens and buys animals in several different species from breeders, hatcheries, and pet stores, you let me know.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

It wouldn't surprise me, by the way I also used "we" when I stated we didn't have a right to slander people with abuse until they had their day in court meaning that I also take ownership of that issue, seeing the ugly under side of humanity makes it difficult to not want to lash out.

The lady here in Florida who so vocally opposes us has Tigers etc and calls herself a "rescue" but in reality is nothing more than a "HERPICIT". She has went so far as to send letters to everyone here in Florida who has a Class 1 permit's NEIGHBORS to advise them that their neighber may have dangerous animals which might escape and cause them harm. I know as it happened to me. It was a year or so ago but I think I still have the letter. What about her and her big cats? She is representitive of many "animal resue" folks here in Florida. The idiot who let the Burmese go by the Day Care Center here in Bradenton, Fl. I believe was an animal removal\rescue guy himself. Before anyone say's all rescues aren't like that I'm in agreement that many are great people. I'm toying now with helping out with Iguana's myself very soon in a rescue situation [has nothing to do with helping our albino Iguana project as I have all the hets etc I need now] because our weather here would allow me to maintain more than the average rescue some where else. Some of the "worst" animal rights wacko's keep animals themselves and in fact purchase or attempt to get other animals in nefarious ways but think only THEY should be allowed to have animals in the first place. These "HOARDERS" are the worst kind of scum and are our dedicated enemies. Keep that in mind when talking or dealing with these people. It also seems to be a way for "SOME" to make a living as they have an inability to hold a real job or to "survive" in the animal business any other way. Again my statements aren't directed nor do they apply to many fine people who do a great job taking in the unwanted or abandoned reptiles...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

That is absolutely right. It's the people that feel only they are capable of doing a satisfactory job of things in this regard.
That's that ego driven class thing --- "we know best/for the greater good"..."Leave it to the professionals". They're dividing up the pie and they're cutting us out because we are not deemed worthy.

Ego driven. They are the hoarders...hoarders of rights, of privileges, of responsibilities, of access, of participation, etc. And their track record sucks! Especially when you factor in the costs.

"Leave it to the professionals" -- I'm getting tired of delegating my authority over things to others. I'd prefer to think for myself. But that's just me.

I can give someone some perfectly sound advice and they will ignore my free common sense advise. But, they can go to a Doctor, Lawyer, or some other "Professional" and get the same advise and they feel good about that, because they paid a professional for his/her opinion. I wonder how many people are rotting in prison based on some "Expert's Opinions"?

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I was googling binturongs one day and some articles about that cat rescue came up. Apparently there is a lot of questionable practices going on with that organization.
Perhaps she's using that old trick of pointing the finger at everyone else so people don;t look at what you're doing wrong.

YOU'RE RIGHT ON THAT...AS SOON AS I CAN REMEMBER HER NAME OR BUSINESS NAME I INTEND TO POST IT HERE..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Big cat rescue

Big cat rescue

I never said they would be released. I absolutly believe that very few pythons are released I completely believe they were escapes after huricane Andrew. The original post said that high end animals arnt just given up my post was to show that they are. Trust me I am on your side here I believe that you should be able to keep any animal you want to provided you can keep properly. If you have the space, time, money, and know how i think you should be able to have a family of Gorrilas in your back yard. No one has the right to tell you what you can or cant do on your own property provided it dosent cause harm to anyone else...although even then there are execptions
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"We don't inherate the earth from our parents, we borrow it from our children"

"The original post said that high end animals arnt just given up my post was to show that they are."

The original post is about pet dumping, not about pet surrender. The title is "Released or Escaped?", doc tried to infer that because people in Florida are surrendering quality reptiles to the Florida amnesty program than people must also be releasing them. This argument then puts the blame for the establishment of these reptiles in southern Florida squarely at the feet of the responsible pet owner community. The behavior of pet owners who go to great lengths to place their animals in the proper custody of a responsible party is significantly different than someone who intentionally releases a reptile with out regard to the law or the environment.

The basis for much of the on going effort to ban or restrict reptile ownership revolves around these very issues.

And, thanks to the new regulations, negative media and excessive requirements those animals that at one time may have been considered "high end" are now considered a liability. How can one sell or place an animal when this happens? The market must be flooded. To top it all off, this just provides additional fuel for the anti-pet ownership crowd to say that we are all "idiots" because we can't take care or re-home our reptiles. This crisis, by mistake or on purpose, is manufactured and a direct result of stupid legislation.

Very eloquently and absolutely correct post. Thank you for your insight...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

>>
>>The basis for much of the on going effort to ban or restrict reptile ownership revolves around these very issues.
>>
>>And, thanks to the new regulations, negative media and excessive requirements those animals that at one time may have been considered "high end" are now considered a liability. How can one sell or place an animal when this happens? The market must be flooded. To top it all off, this just provides additional fuel for the anti-pet ownership crowd to say that we are all "idiots" because we can't take care or re-home our reptiles. This crisis, by mistake or on purpose, is manufactured and a direct result of stupid legislation.

I completely agree, and this is why it's important to keep rebutting the propaganda about "irresponsible pet owners." It
seems like in EVERY newspaper/internet article, news story, TV show or casual discussion about Burms in the Everglades that irresponsbile pet owners are mentioned as a (if not the only) cause of the feral python population. As long as this cloud is hanging over us, it will be that much easier for those pushing these laws (who, btw, don't even want responsible ownership, they want NO ownership!) to ban all "exotic" snakes/reptiles. This propaganda creates a positive snowball effect for the other side.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>"The original post said that high end animals arnt just given up my post was to show that they are."
>>
>>The original post is about pet dumping, not about pet surrender. The title is "Released or Escaped?", doc tried to infer that because people in Florida are surrendering quality reptiles to the Florida amnesty program than people must also be releasing them.

Noooo, actually, I didn't. I believe it was the OP -- not gonna go back and look right now -- made the argument that people don't give up expensive animals. I was simply responding that yes, people DO give up expensive animals, all the time.

>>This argument then puts the blame for the establishment of these reptiles in southern Florida squarely at the feet of the responsible pet owner community.

Nope. As I have said many times -- I don't know how the burms in the Glades became established.

>>And, thanks to the new regulations, negative media and excessive requirements those animals that at one time may have been considered "high end" are now considered a liability.

Yup. Expense does not always equate with desirability to the people who own the animals.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Boa's absolutely can NOT survive neglect any better than a Ball Python can....In fact most species of Boa's are more sensitive to cold weather than Ball Pythons. Over the years I've had many more RI problems with Boas than with Ball Pythons...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I agree with you Tom. A Ball Python is defenitely hardier then a Boa, and I would also say a Ball Python is a lot hardier then a Burm any day. Now, what I want to know is, who wound up the jack in the box?

>>Boa's absolutely can NOT survive neglect any better than a Ball Python can....In fact most species of Boa's are more sensitive to cold weather than Ball Pythons. Over the years I've had many more RI problems with Boas than with Ball Pythons...

I wasn't referring to cold hardiness, but rather to idjit-owner hardiness.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Boas are very prone to stress related regurgetation which Ball Pythons are not. There are MANY, MANY factors about Boas that make them much less hardy than Ball Pythons in terms of owner stupidity in general. Juvenile Boas often eat and regurge with only the SLIGHTEST STRESS unlike Ball Pythons. That was a general statement I made about Boas in all applications in terms of "hardy"...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Ball pythons are much hardier than burms. A ball python that eats is practically bullet proof.
I have wild caught adult ball pythons go over a year without eating, start eating, and live for several years.
Obviously they don't have the feeding response of a boa or a burm but other than that...D.C.

>>Ball pythons are much hardier than burms. A ball python that eats is practically bullet proof.

That's a big "if"...."if" it eats.

I'll admit -- for the majority of the time that I had a whole lot to do with herp medicine, we were still dealing mostly with wild caught or "captive hatched" wild bred balls. So it could well be different in today's Brave New Ball World.
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----

0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

The bottom line is that wc or NOT Ball Pythons are HARDIER AND TOUGHER than Boas when subjected to any kind of stress PERIOD. It matters NOT where the Balls came from. A wc boa is much less hardy than a wc Ball Python. The fact that Ball Pythons go for long periods of time without eating aplies both to cb and wc Ball Pythons. The uninformed used to other species that readily eat get alarmed if a Ball doesn't feed for several months when in fact it is normal behavior. How many times have I had a Ball Python almost the size to breed and then it goes off feed and I have to wait an extra year...That statement that the "new" Ball is somehow different simply is NOT true...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Ah yes, the enigmatic Ball Python...

I did notice the two separate sources cited here, that Ball Pythons led the market in the "available to good homes" category...not very many Berms, though. Did I get that right? And Ball Pythons aren't apparently an issue.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer