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This is a true captive born trig.This picture is not a good example as this guy is so fat and solid.I have had many trigs this is the best baby I have had eats anything pellets rodents or fingers .I love those trigs.Most are very picky this one is not.

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Archie Bottoms

I like him, One of these days I am going to get another group of trigs. I like them and would like to try a natural outdoor setup with them here in Texas.
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Hello Archie.. I'm just wondering, did you by any chance breed this caiman yourself?? I have a sub-adult pair that I'm wondering how far from maturity they are..

No I am not exactly sure who did.I have only bred caimens once specticles in 99.I got rid of all my crocs and this is the only one I have now.Trigs need to be at least 3 and a half feet for the female and 4 plus for the male I would guess.I bet at 7 to 10 years old or older,Where you can get specs to breed in 4 years for the female and 5 or 6 for the male.I have even herd of 3 year olds breeding.
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Archie Bottoms

How do you know it is "true captive born?"

>>>>No I am not exactly sure who did.I have only bred caimens once specticles in 99.

Great looking animal, I have dealt with young trigs and yes they are a pain to get to eat, I took care of one that I had to hide my whole body and just get the tongs with a mouse near him not fun but hey things we do for things we like. Good job though

Thanks Archie. I have not accurately measured my pair for some time now (I think not since 2008) but intend to do so during the spring. I know that both are over four feet for sure, but am unsure of the ages. The female I have had since 04 and she was around 30 inches when I got her and the male was around 40 inches in 06 when I got him. The male was said to have been around 8 years old at the time but I cannot verify that for sure either. The pair are living in a 12X6X4 enclosure with half land, and half water (which is 18 inches deep). The other have I have filled with 18 inches of a mixture of soil, sand, mulch and other organic material and they each have their own separate hides. I need to make a few changes to the enclosure this year. Id like to add a second black plastic hide like you can see in the picture below but bury both of them under the substrate to make things more naturalistic, and open up the land area so it isn't so cluttered. The males hide is a big, flat bottomed stump resting on a couple of 2X4 frames for support. Their ambient and basking temperatures have been lowered, as well as their photo period for this winter (my first winter doing this) and the level in their pond has lowered as well, so this spring I will adjust the heat and lights, fill the pond to the top again over a few weeks and spray heavily and cross my fingers!

Matt

I know it is captive born Had many none like this.Matt are they outside put piles of leaves and mulch to build a nest just pile it up and she will do the rest.They should be breeding already at that age.My specs bred all the time the coolest is when he would do the rattle roar to make the water shake he would shake the windows in the whole house with every bellow.When you have a bonded pr it is very cool to watch the interaction my male would take his rats to his girl.He would be on shore and she would gently bite his lower jaw and pull him in the water to mount her.I have never witnessed reptiles in love this was love.
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Archie Bottoms

Matt why is it that some crocs like your caimen will live very happt with a turtle.My caimens had a turtle pet as well that would even get in there and get his share of the food.Now it started out as about 10 hatchlings with the female when she was young then one night she ate all of them about a year later but one.I left that one in there and it stayed there until I added the male .The female acted sad so I put it back the male never touched it ever.They all lived happy until I sold the group.I think the crocs as well as turtles can be friends.This is not new at all and many zoos have done the same thing.The largest american croc shares his pond with a turtle as well and has for many years and they fight over food the turtle never giveing ground they arwe friends.Some of the real croc people might to chime in on this one It has always fascinated me.
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Archie Bottoms

Yea, our gator lives with a turtle who will literally take food out of the gators mouth. It's about the funniest thing I've ever seen. And the alligator just let's her. I'm SURE it's because we feed them PLENTY; neither one of them ever go hungry. But still, hilarious to watch a turtle rip something out of an alligators mouth, and the gator just look at her like, "yea...ok."

To me the turtle that lives with sobek The largest american croc is too kool.Because he could bite it right in half or swallow it hole.Personaly I think they have some sort of bond that we do not understand.Crocs are smart for a reptile and so are turtles.The one thing with mine was it ate all but one and never ever touched that one ever.
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Archie Bottoms

Will you please post more pictures of those awesome fat monsters.It is not often we get to see a set of beauties like that and you should share.I had a 6 foot male trig when I was 22.I bought it for 150 from Gulf cooast reptiles.It was light brown not black like those.It is also my opinion that trigs and palps are a complex of simmular species and are at least reagonal variants if not subspecies.Yours is the best looking trig that my eyes have scene.My 6 foot monster was perhaps 50 or 60 pounds but its teeth were giant.My dad threw away the pictures I had or would post them.If you breed please put me on the offspring list.
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Archie Bottoms

Hey Archie.. Forgive me if I forget to answer any of your questions from the last couple of posts, I'll do my best to remember as I type.. I started out with a pair of Florida red bellied turtles in with the female trig, long before I got the male and they've always been fine together. There are now about 8 turtles living in their pond (with most of them being drop-off red eared sliders). Most of the turtles have marks on their shells from where the caimans have tried biting them but no injuries have ever been sustained. I have seen lots of pictures of different species of turtles living with crocodilians, and have seen red foot tortoises kept with some large yacare caimans as well. I think it depends on a lot of factors whether they'll get along or not.. I wouldn't trust keeping bottom dwelling turtles like muds/musks in with crocodilians because their heads become too exposed when coming up for a breath. I'm sure the croc in questions personality has a role to play, plus enclosure, etc..

As for putting the caimans outside, I would like to one day, but I live in Ontario, Canada where the summers are short and the winters are loooong and cold. I don't know that keeping them outdoors for 4 months of the year would be very beneficial in stimulating them to reproduce or not. Part of the problem of why they havent bred in the past as well is that they haven't lived in a suitable enclosure for long enough to really settle in, until now.. They've been living in this enclosure for 2 years so I'm crossing my fingers that after doing what I mentioned before, I'll see some breeding activity from them. I can't wait until the day they've both reached their maximum size. I have a friend up here that has an adult male that is just under 6 feet and he is absolutely incredible.

I have a bunch of different, older pictures of the female trig, and not too many of the male. He's always been pretty shy and never seems to be out when I have my camera around. He does tong feed though and was out in the open a lot more than he's been last summer. The female is very accustomed to me and is an aggressive tong feeder. I know what you mean about their teeth being long, and thankfully not experienced them "first hand" so to speak..

Matt

And for the picture labels...
1. The female.. I was co-managing a local fish and reptile store years ago and took the pair in to put on display at the store (which wasn't too exciting, they always hid). Almost lost both when the furnace broke and water temp dropped to the low 60's. I came in to find 2 floating, water filled caimans. Interesting part was the red bellied turtles were swimming over looking for food in such cold water.
2. The pair basking together. The male has never been much of a basker but the female sure is. That is the enclosure they were in before going into the store, it was 10X6 and floor to ceiling. The water area was 4X6.
3.Closer shot of the pair. They were around 42 inches then.
4.Close up of the females head.. Ain't she perdy?
5.Female again, I love this shot of her for some reason..
6.The pair after I just got the male, cleaning out their pond. This enclosure was way too small for 2 and I quickly make changes so they had more space. They just had a 4X6 pond and the basking shelf at this time.
7. The female I think in 2005.
8. Female in 2004, snacking on some chicken.
9. Female in 2004 again, looking for lunch.

The female was one of my first crocs. Started out with her in a 65 gallon tank, which was what was recommended to me and I quickly upgraded her to an 8X2 enclosure (which was also too small after I watched her more and more, but she was a lot smaller too). I'm going on 24 now and finishing up college so long story, but I keep the pair of trigs out at a good friend of mine's farm where he has allowed me to build their current enclosure in a 40X25 foot "turtle barn". I've got a couple of 3 foot alligators and a 2 foot spectacled caiman out there as well, and some more small spectacled caimans, 2 cuviers dwarf caimans and 2 dwarf crocodiles at my house.

Matt

Matt D do you have more pictures of your enclosures? What is the pond made of? They look very interesting. I live in Pennsylvania and we get more cold then warm weather here too. When my wife and I move we are going to be building a building for my reptiles... aren't I lucky to have such an understanding wife lol... But will be building a new cage for my now spectacled caiman who is between 2.5 and 3 feet.
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Tom
1.2.0 Leopard Gecko (dot, spot, casper)
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0.1.2 Ferret (jordan RIP, Cosmo and Izzy)
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Lots Of Fish

I could use my own building as well lol.. The pond the trigs are living in now I made out of pagring mix, painted with 2 coats of 2 part epoxy paint. The whole enclosure was framed with 2X4's and a glass front, the entire bottom of the enclosure was insulated and plywood laid down for the floor. The walls are made from cement board, and the frame of the pond is all plywood. I stapled diamond lathe over the entire pond and put my layer of parging mix (not sure exactly how thick, probably half an inch in the thickest parts) and lastly painted it with 2 coats of paint (as I mentioned already).. Originally I had tried to make the pond just out of plywood and epoxy, which failed big time, so I put a pond liner in for their first winter as a quick fix. Last summer I was able to remove the caimans and keep them in a chicken coop (free of chickens of course) with a couple of heat lamps and a 6 foot waterland tub. The pond took about a week or so to complete after I began the prep work. I've made about 8 ponds using this method now and only one has failed, but I think its because I did it off the ground and didn't make my parging mix thick enough so there was some cracking when I tried to fill it. I have my alligators in an enclosure that is L shaped and measures 8X4, with another 2X4 foot section to complete the L. All of the smaller ponds I've done have glass fronts, and I decided to put the glass in before parging the rest of the pond, which has resulted in a 100% success rate of no leaks around the glass. Unfortunately I don't have too many pictures of these enclosures but I'll take some soon and post them. I'm going to be building a couple more this spring/summer to make better use of some of the space in my reptile room.

Matt

Hey Matt, when you get a chance can you take some detailed pics of this L shaped enclosure and list the buildind specs? I'm planning on building a sililar set up in a couple months for 1 of my dwarf crocs, but im sizing a 8ft x 4ft section and then a 4ft x 3ft section ... im thinking I might set up the land area so there is water underneath, but then a land area kinda like you have on your trig enclosure might be nice as it could be used as a nesting area that would keep all or most debree out of the water.

I need adult male osteo's .. stud service anyone? lol
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Great Lakes Zoological

GLZ.. I'll take some more pictures for you soon. I built this enclosure last year and have not done anything to the exterior of the enclosure and it is part of a chain of enclosures going around the entire inside of the building. It's also only around 30" tall so hard to take good pictures but you can geta bit of an idea from the second pic. I gave them an area of around 4X1.5 feet and filled it with sand (for the helmeted turtles I was keeping in with them, and because the owner of the building is a big turtle guy and any enclosures I build at the farm will not house my animals for ever, so I gear them towards turtles as well when I build, long story..). I would definitely want this enclosure at least half land, half water if I were housing osteolaemus in it. I think when I build any permanent enclosure down the road for myself as well, I will do them all floor to ceiling so I can walk in them. The plastic thing in the second picture is a Red Sea polishing filter that I threw in to clear the water up in case anyone is wondering, I don't keep it in there all the time.

Matt

Oops. Had my pictures confused, the second pic is actually the first!

Hey Matt,

Where abouts are you in Ontario? I'm NE of Newmarket...
I'm curious about your friend's place as I also live in the country - and plan on building a reptile room (either in the house or in the barn) for when they get bigger.

Mr. F
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Real time Rogue, a captive Palp

Hello.. I live in Peterborough and my friends farm is about 15 minutes east of Peterborough.

Matt

Matt thanks for the walk through your caimens life very nice.I can not thank you enough .I bred specs indoors so it will work.FT Worth zoo bred dwarf crocs indoors for years then blew out the eggs and displayed the empty shells just sick.I was due to buy the babies but a new curater decided no private individual should ever own a croc what an ass.I had a pr of palps from Sanantonio zoo as my friend bought the babies every year.I took photos of the adults on my honeymoon it was cool.They are the black palps not scene very often.Chris posts here has at least one of the babies still but it is a large adult female now.A few years ago he bred a trig to his palps and got eggs but they went bad it is in the photo archives here he was sold the trig as a palp but never was sure that it was but figured it out.I think he has a male now.He has a few pictures posted of his pond he built here as well.
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Archie Bottoms

Those black palps are the finest palps around. I've seen 1 (Wyoming???) other than the S.A. ones.
I trid to tell people how fine they were here years ago but unless you've actually had one...
I had one. She was just getting big(3 feet) it was winter and she was outside. During he night she decided to take a stroll, got cold and could'nt get back to her heated water.
When I found her she was limp. You know usually when they are really cold they are stiff like they are frozen.
But she was limp and I thought she was dead. I softly touched her eye and it moved. I took her in my house and raised her temp. slowly. She made it. I thought I was out of the woods but when spring rolled around she would't eat. She was always an amazing eater. So I gave her a little time. Nothing.
She would haul out of the water lay out in the sun, did everything she was suppose to do, except eat.
She was very stout so I knew she could go for a while. I did'nt want to stress her by trying to force feed her.
She finally died about 14 months later(after the cold). She never did eat. Now I would probably try and force feed her but back then...
Anyway she was gorgeous. I have 3 of the red ones and they're pretty to but I was partial to the black one.
And she wanted to be big an amazing eater.
My biggest trig was a 4.5 foot male and he was an absolute terror. I use to say pound for pound he was the scariest croc I had ever been around. And just trying to pen him his sharp neck scutes would cut your hands. He had a wicked growl and he was lightening quick. D.C.

Yes Danny we talked years ago about the black palps T hey are something else.The black trigs are also something else as mine is a red .Matts are the black TRIGS.I had a black trig that bit a heater cable and zaped its self a couple of years ago.I would love to come by your place and meet you in person Danny some day.Like this summer if you would let me.
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Archie Bottoms

And no one has any pictures of these crocs??? Disappointing! I've yet to have an animal die from electrocution.. GFI's all the way and I am cautious to protect ANY electrical devices going into the enclosures. I had a friend who's dwarf crocodile bit a heater with no GFIs around christmas and zapped itself but I was able to take the carcass and skin it and remove the tissue from the skull for a project for school (I'm finishing up a Fish and Wildlife program).. She had a rubber coupler from a fluval filter in her stomach from around 6 months prior to her death.

Matt

Archie
Sure that would be fine. Just give me as much notice as you can.
This place is always a wreck. It seems just when I get something the way I want it something else begins to leak. Or someone needs a bigger enclosure. Or lifelong cagemates suddenly can't get along. You know typically life of a croc keeper. D.C.

Looking forward to it.
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Archie Bottoms

PS.. Good to hear about your experiences breeding indoors. There is a guy in Quebec, Canada that has bred repeatedly dwarf crocodiles indoors and a group of palps that belong to a friend of mine laid fertile eggs but laid in the water and one ended up hatching out of 13. The mother was very small.

Matt

Hey Danny,

I'm in SA Thursday-Sat, any chance we could come over and visit?
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CDieter
'Reason, observation, and experience; the holy trinity of science.'

Hey Chris
Winter is just an awful time the place looks even worse than normal. I'm in the middle of several projects. The demolition part of the project. I'm hoping this summer it will "be good enough" for me to want people to come out.
I know Talka has been wanting to come out.
If I keep putting you guys off people are going to think I don't have any crocs. LOL
Seriously, hopefully this summer I'll be ready for guest.
And hopefully by then I'll have at least one wood burning hot water heater and I'll probably need advice on how to set it up.
My enclosures are'nt as big as yours but I have so many. D.C.

I took a little palp in back around 2003 or 2004, it was a unwanted pet ... its small, now probably only around 20 or so inches, but by far the best palp I have ever had. Real laid back unless you touch her ... eats anything and everything including croc chow which I thought was pretty rare for a palp.

Maybe a year or 2 after I had got her, she was set up in a aquarium with a glass heater that was left unprotected, stupid me .. anyway, she broke the heater and got zapped, and zapped pretty good I think ... I saw that the heater was broke and she was in the water acting normal just chilling there, I freaked out and grabbed her out, I got a hell of a zap ... amazingly I pulled her out and she was fine.

I started using the plastic stealth heaters after that in the set ups that I use heaters in ... I find for most of my indoor stuff that the heaters really are not even needed.

Nice tuff palps are hard to find ... I had a really tuff adult male when I was a kid, wish I still had him! and I have the super tuff little one now and I dont think I will ever part with her! I imported 50 or so a couple years back, they arived in terrible shape, took me a long time to get them all back up to par but even then they seemed 100% healthy but man they were kicking the bucket left and right for no reason, not tuff like other species I dont get it, tey seem so fragile .. imported ones anyway!
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Great Lakes Zoological

Hey guys thank you for makeing this such a good thread.Now my black trig died righ in front of my eyes.I held a mouse by the tail it jumped missed grabbed the cord and went boom even his mouth was burned.All Dead get put in with dermastid beatles the handed to a science class 7th grade.The teacher has a ostio and a couple of palps as well as a trig.Only one was mint the trig all wild cought died shortly after import.
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Archie Bottoms

The Ft. Worth Zoo also bred P. trigonatus back in the early '90s. I bought one of their offspring back in '95/'96. Nasty little critters! Yeah, the P. palpebrosus I got from San Antonio is 15 years old and solid black. She is definitely the alpha female out of the two! The second female came from the National Zoo in Washington D.C. (via Louis Porras) and she's about 16 years old. She still has great banding (when her bodies not stained from the well water). She is much more docile, but will still take your hand off when cornered! As for my male, I purchased him from a guy in Austin, TX last Spring. I did purchase what was sold to me as an adult male P. palpebrosus back in 2006. As soon as I let it out of the crate, he ran and hid. Once I was able to get a good look at it, I knew it wasn't a P. palpebrosus. I ended up getting Robbie at Glades Herp to house it for me, which it died Spring '07. He was a good 5 '. Of course, that same summer the female from San Antonio built a nest and laid infertile eggs. Never saw any breeding. I really wish I had an adult male. The male I have now is around 3 1/2 feet, so, it will be a good while until he reaches maturity. Anyway, just wanted to comment. By the way, I really enjoyed the pics of the adult P. trigonatus.

That is one sweet croc!
I have a little guy too and I just bought an amazing walltank for him.
Viewable on both sides of my wall. Looks fantastic and really adds to my house
Check 'em out at www.walltanks.com and www.kooltanks.com
And let the hungry man live in luxury!
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