Reptile & Amphibian Forums

...hahahaha,(fake laugh)you think youre safe with your pretty little rainbow boas(females can reach 8') HA!...after they pass this ban on the larger snakes (and they will)whom do you think they will go after next?...pretty soon you wont be able to keep any snake or reptile not indigenous to your state then they will take your rights(because we dont have any) to keep native spieces too...these Burms have been here since before I was born (I am 30)my family also was part of a huge clean up crew for Hurricane Andrew and we caught several different snake and lizards (including our 22' Retic!)...I now live right under Lake Okeechobee were they burn the cane fields every day killing God knows how many native species...but nothing is done to stop that now is there?
...the wildlife in my neighborhood consists of stray dogs and cats,when I first moved into my home here I had a large amount of Green Anoles (the only native Fl. Anole)living around my house until some stupid cat decided to have its babies under my house and now I have NO anoles whatsoever because the cats ate them...Cats and dogs are some of the worst Invasive animals (after SnowBirds and Illegal Aliens lol)in Florida but nobody cares because they are cute and cuddly (till one attacks your child or yourself)...restore the Everglades HAHA did you know that the Everglades used to reach all the way up to Lake Okeechobee?...this is nothin but a bunch of animal rights nutbags and a bunch of scared sissies (oh my God a snake!)about to destroy the lives of a bunch of people but do they care?...of course not...just thinking about this crap makes me sick...

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1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 5' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa Lola Boa
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Hypo Sonoran Gophersnake
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 wc Fl.Cornsnake "Iggy"
0.1 cb Okeetee Cornsnake "Bella"
1.0 wc Easteren Hognose Snake "Snape"

I don't really think it will bother AD if they come for her Rainbow Boas. She will most likely graciously defer to the Govment's ultimate wisdom.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

...yeah your probably right!...
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1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 5' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa Lola Boa
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Hypo Sonoran Gophersnake
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 wc Fl.Cornsnake "Iggy"
0.1 cb Okeetee Cornsnake "Bella"
1.0 wc Easteren Hognose Snake "Snape"

>>I don't really think it will bother AD if they come for her Rainbow Boas. She will most likely graciously defer to the Govment's ultimate wisdom.

:-P

The first time you find a naturalized colony of rainbows in the US, let me know.

You wanna talk about unreasonable bans, forget burms. The USFWS has just tried to ban most ownership, across the nation, of MUSCOVY DUCKS. Muscovies have been domesticated FOR MORE THAN 500 YEARS -- but, because wild muscovies have recently moved into TX, and because domestic muscovies sometimes escape and become feral, USFWS decided to ban almost all private ownership. The new rule was supposed to go into effect the end of this month. You can see it here:

http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/RegulationsPolicies/reg2010/Muscovy Duck Final Rule 1 March 2010.pdf

and here:

http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=304055&p=1

And you know what?

Now it looks like it isn't going to happen.

And you know why?

Because private owners and the APA (American Poultry Association) got together and proved how widespread and well-established pet and backyard flock ownership of Muscovies is, and what a long domesticated history Muscovies have.

What, you ask, is my point?

The government sometimes does dumb things. The government is made up of people, and sometimes people are dumb. But if you really have a strong case, and you really band together to present that case in a calm and logical manner -- rather than accusing your opponents of conspiracies and bribes and other under-handed behavior -- then you can make a difference.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

How would they even go about enforcing something like that? They would find out very quickly the actual meaning of the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely". It has nothing to do with HAVING absolute power it has to do with trying to exercise it.
Somebody did a cost analysis on that and shut them down real quick. Trying to eliminate muscovies would be almost as bad as that rumor about the govt. wanting to take our tomato plants. Shoot they can't even get all the pot plants out there and look at what they spend on that.

>> Somebody did a cost analysis on that and shut them down real quick.

Actually, no. The rule was in the planning stages for about two years, and had made it all the way through to the "final rule" stage. It was only stopped in the last two weeks, after the APA and private owners found out about it.

I thought it was one of those crazy rumors too, until I read it on the FWS site.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Making a compairson of muscovys (which I also have) to large snakes is a difficult one because when the poltry people scream most people are willing to listen because the like ducks and whan they see a baby one they say AHHHHHH isn't that cute. Plus there is not a media campain going full blast to make people think big snakes are bad, kill people and destroy the environment and will be in your backyard soon. Regular people think banning a duck is silly.

By the way I noticed on one of the new shows they tweeked there wording a little they said "with global warming these snakes could spread to the entire southern US. And they did mention escaped animals so they can stand on the tecnicality that houses or buildings destroyed by hurricanes were escapes but the perception for the general public was bad caging with irrisponsible owners.
The 2 shows had a strong and continuous message from zoo keepers, psychologists, pet shop owners, biologists, USFW, polititions, neighbors and friends that people who keep more than 1 or 2 reptiles have some kind of psycological/social problem and they live on the fringes of society. Most people who I know that keep many reptiles have way more intrests and general knowledge that the average person which gives them less in common with the average person. I guess if your only passion is not football or nascar or american idol you live on the fringe.
Rob

I agree that herpers have a long row to hoe when it comes to public perception. And face it -- many of the people who keep reptiles AREN'T the average Joe Blow. That doesn't make em bad or crazy or any of that, but it DOES make them easy targets.

I also agree that many AP shows are terribly sensationalized. You know the old News axiom: if it bleeds, it leads. Sensationalism of all sorts is how broadcast companies make their money.

The way to fight this sort of bias, IMHO, is with POSITIVE messages and FACTS -- rather than mud-slinging accusations about graft and conspiracies and so on. The herp community simply doesn't have enough clout to make an impression with accusations, but they could make a lot of progress if they work on that POSITIVE message.

>>Making a compairson of muscovys (which I also have) to large snakes is a difficult one because when the poltry people scream most people are willing to listen because the like ducks and whan they see a baby one they say AHHHHHH isn't that cute. Plus there is not a media campain going full blast to make people think big snakes are bad, kill people and destroy the environment and will be in your backyard soon. Regular people think banning a duck is silly.
>>
>>By the way I noticed on one of the new shows they tweeked there wording a little they said "with global warming these snakes could spread to the entire southern US. And they did mention escaped animals so they can stand on the tecnicality that houses or buildings destroyed by hurricanes were escapes but the perception for the general public was bad caging with irrisponsible owners.
>>The 2 shows had a strong and continuous message from zoo keepers, psychologists, pet shop owners, biologists, USFW, polititions, neighbors and friends that people who keep more than 1 or 2 reptiles have some kind of psycological/social problem and they live on the fringes of society. Most people who I know that keep many reptiles have way more intrests and general knowledge that the average person which gives them less in common with the average person. I guess if your only passion is not football or nascar or american idol you live on the fringe.
>>Rob
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I do somewhat agree with your last point-all this "Black Helicopter" talk doesn't do anything but harm. But I do have one question for you:

Who in their right mind keeps Muscovy Ducks??!! They are butt ugly , dirty and messy birds. What's the attraction?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

>>Who in their right mind keeps Muscovy Ducks??!! They are butt ugly , dirty and messy birds. What's the attraction?

LOL!!

I don't keep them myself. In part, I don't have them because they fly. I do have ducks, but the breeds I keep are non-fliers.

Many people keep Muscovies both for their production value (good meat, some eggs) and for their personalities. They make good "watch dogs", pest eaters, and they are supposed to be quite intelligent. There is a long long history of Muscovies in domestication.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

Yes, thank you. I honestly appreciate your input. You have done us a great service with your comments.
The government and the media didn't use all those scare tactics with the ducks, did they?
There wasn't a huge amout of federal grant money in the balance was there?
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>Yes, thank you. I honestly appreciate your input. You have done us a great service with your comments.
>>The government and the media didn't use all those scare tactics with the ducks, did they?

They didn't have the chance -- in fact, this rule nearly slipped underneath everyone's radar. Duck keepers didn't get a good chance to respond until the "final rule" had already been written -- unlike all the public comment that has been possible with the snakes!

But yes, it is absolutely easier to use scare tactics with snakes than with ducks. No argument there!

>>There wasn't a huge amout of federal grant money in the balance was there?

I dunno much about the intakes or expenditures for either the duck or snake issues (aside from the OMB estimates), so I can't really comment here!
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

You guys are just quacking me up.

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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

I totaly agree with AD on this one...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I'm proud to be an Oakie from Muscovy.

Would it have been illegal then to eat "PRESSED DUCK"?LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Aren't muscovies considered domestic ducks? Aren't domestic animals under the authority of the usda as opposed to the fws? I know that wolf dogs are regarded as domestic animals by the fwc and that is why they don't exercise any authority over them. The hybrid rule aside which really is techinically no longer true as dogs and wolves are regarded as the same species. I certainly know pure wolves are still under their authority and require permits. But that aside aren't muscovies and domestic ducks considered domestic fowl? What about mallards? aren;t they covered under the whole migratory bird thing? there must be some sort of distinction between the mallards in the wild and the ones you buy.
The whole thing seems a bit fowl to me. I'm betting somebody threatened to cut off their funding over that one. It sounds like a huge waste of their limited funding to me. Not that wasting money has ever stopped them before. I'm betting if they went through the only talk show host that wouldn't have been on that one would have been Neal Boortz and that's only because he hates how Canadian Geese crap up his yard. Rush Beck Hannity and all the others would been having a field day with it though.

>>Aren't muscovies considered domestic ducks? Aren't domestic animals under the authority of the usda as opposed to the fws?

The problem is the wild ones that moved themselves up from Mexico, and the feral ones that escape all over the country.

In the discussion over the rule at the FWS site, the FWS said (amongst other things): "We intend to disallow private possession of muscovy ducks, except to raise them to be sold as food (which has been ongoing for years)."

Not just an import ban. Not just a ban on transport. They were trying to ban all private ownership -- unless you were selling them to eat!

And yes, the argument about them being domesticated is exactly what the APA took to the FWS, at least in part. It was ludicrous for them to try to ban ownership of a species that has been domesticated for **500 YEARS**.

>> aren;t they covered under the whole migratory bird thing?

The "whole migratory bird thing" is what got the muscovies into trouble in the first place. Muscovies weren't "protected" by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act until the wild muscovies moved into TX. Then they became protected as a native bird species. And in nearly all cases (with just a few exceptions), individuals aren't allowed to own protected native species.

>>there must be some sort of distinction between the mallards in the wild and the ones you buy.

Yes, but the distinction gets complicated with game birds like mallards. I don't *think* Muscovies are hunted, so they would probably not count as game.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

has made me hungry.

AFFLAC!

-- rather than accusing your opponents of conspiracies and bribes and other under-handed behavior -- then you can make a difference."

Looks to me that our opponent, the HSUS, are involved in"bribery, fraud, obstruction of justice, and money laundering ".

http://humanewatch.org/index.php/site/post/press_release_racketeering_lawsuit_fingers_humane_society_of_the_unite/

"Looks to me that our opponent, the HSUS, are involved in"bribery, fraud, obstruction of justice, and money laundering "."

That is the truth. I'm of the opinion there are some serious RICO Statute violations here. Don't think certain politicians are particularilly interested in turning off that tap, or of having anyone scrutinize their associations.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Anybody can sue anybody else for just about anything. That doesn't mean they're guilty. Remember "innocent until proven guilty"?

HSUS may or may not be involved in under-handed dealings. I dunno. But in any case I was referring to the lawmakers in this case, not the HSUS.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters

"HSUS may or may not be involved in under-handed dealings. I dunno."

Why am I not surprised?????

How about their leadership? A convicted domestic terrorist.

http://humanewatch.org/index.php/people/detail/john_j.p._goodwin/

Or, how about all the money that the public gives them for animal welfare? I think like 3.6% of their budget goes to local shelters, how much goes to their lobbying and marketing efforts? All this talk about helping animals and so little of it goes to help them. Where did all the $34 million in donations for Katrina go? How much does the HSUS VP make? Close to 300K a year???? Sounds like a giant scam to me, the HSUS leadership is more interested in helping themselves to our money then in helping animals.

http://biotech.ifcnr.com/article.cfm?NewsID=355

Here is some more interesting stuff..

http://www.activistcash.com/organization_blackeye.cfm/oid/136

And then there is, look at the link towards the bottom, "HSUS-Overview summary of excessive lobbying issue paper". Seems like their tax exempt status is now under review.

http://www.saova.org/SpayNeuterHSUS.html

>>"HSUS may or may not be involved in under-handed dealings. I dunno."
>>
>>Why am I not surprised?????

You should NOT be surprised that I admit to ignorance when I am ignorant of something. I am always willing to admit to ignorance when it is present.

As for the rest -- as Danny has been reminding me, this is a BURMESE PYTHON FORUM. It isn't an HSUS forum. In addition to that restriction I really don't have time to be researching HSUS dealings right now, so I will beg off of participation in the rest of your post.
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0.1 Peruvian rainbow boa (Amaru)
2.0 Brazilian rainbow boas (Arco, Olho)
0.3 Honduran milksnakes (Chicchan, Chanir, Hari)
1.0 Thayeri kingsnake (Coatl)
2.7 corns (Cetto, Tolosa, Uce, TBA)
1,000,000.1,000,000 other critters