Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Latest figures released about the ten pythons fitted with radio tracking transmitters, nine out of ten, including all eight females, died from the cold snap.

Miami Herald Story

It's about time they released this.

Norman that is great news but the damage is done and the ball will keep on rolling
-----
Archie Bottoms

Great article. I believe this will help tremendously. We are not hopeless, many similar laws have been shot down before. Don't throw in the towel prematurely

At least in uncovers the overzealousness of the USGS report--->which was a major player in the logic of this bill.
-----
steve

wouldn't you know...9 out of 10 died from the cold weather and the only one that survived happens to be a slut!!! Will there ever be any justice.

Dan

I think using terms like "survival rate" in the article is another way to twist the facts.

"Spotting" a snake that is alive has to be far easier than "spotting" a dead one considering that they most likely went underground in search of shelter and somewhat warmer ground during cold snap?

The impact on gravid females reproduction efforts for this season should not be overlooked either.

" The park lost nine of the 10 radio-tagged snakes, including all eight females, but field surveys for several weeks following the cold snap found higher survival rates -- nearly 60 percent of 99 snakes spotted by his team of researchers were alive."

They didn’t say if the one that survived happened to be in a cage in the lab at the time, either. Has anyone heard of any python hunters being able to go out and spot or capture (not always the same thing) more than a couple of pythons at a time? We are lead to believe from this report that their own guys have found 99 in just a few weeks, of which “nearly sixty percent” whatever that means, exactly, were still alive. I know finding the stinky rotting ones is fairly easy, but finding live ones is still not. I’m not sure I believe they have found that many live ones. How many field ops do they have doing this? We are supposed to believe two or three guys have found 99? I know one organized hunt before the cold weather, on land suspected of being ground zero for African rocks, turned up nothing. I wonder why they are not able to take a reporter out and find one? It seems to me the “facts” are in and the push for legislation is full steam ahead despite the science that more or less proves this is a Florida problem and not a federal case. These snakes are basically feeding on things that fox and bob cats used to eat. Since those native predators have been driven further into the most remote wilderness areas, aren’t the pythons actually having net zero effect on native populations of rats opossums, raccoons and wading birds? Aren’t the python eggs and juveniles actually providing more food for remaining native wildlife than fox and bob cats did when they occupied this niche? I don’t get the argument that they are harmful to native wild life. Except maybe native rats.

I can't really begin to talk about anything more than what was in that article except to say that you are looking for a conspiracy theory in everything you read and you're wrong and disrespectful.

Mike

I would say you are absolutely right, and I am sorry Mike.

Do not appologize to this guy. He is not on our side. All he is doing is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Actually I don't think Mike is our enemy or anyone's enemy that I know of [do you hate anyone I know Mike?..LOL]. He has a job to do and he doesn't have the permission to say more than he did. If he could he would but also he needs a job as all of us do. From the brief amount of correspondance I've had with him he has always been helpful, curteous, and proffessional. Don't let our frustrations be taken out on innocent folks. Right now everyone is upset and rightly so BUT we have to conduct ourselves in a proffessional and curteous manner. Dr. Mazzoti himself suggested that they could use our help in solving the Burmese problem and that he thinks a ban is not necessary and wouldn't solve anything. It appears to me an olive branch has been thrown our way and in fact we should be working with them [I'm guessing everyone understands who "we" and "them" are] for the good of all. This includes the ENP ecosystem, the Herp Industry, and the Scientist working on the issues. My biggest concern is the Everglades Wilderness Area and the rest is secondary. At this point lets be courteous and I freely offer my help in any way I might be needed to help with any issues that may arise...Thanks
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

No worries.

Mike

Mike, It is certainly not a conspiracy, but it is a "coagulation" of like-minded individuals hoping for a certain conclusion or outcome of fact.

It is a predisposition of factual outcome. All within the group betting in one direction. This is a personal prejudice for preferred results. Everyone trying to prove something, all on the same side of the issue.

This "titration" or "distillation" of like-minded human philosophy/opinion/prejudice is more likened to a political movement...the Tea Party, for instance.

So, in effect, what this makes the issue one of a POLITICAL nature, rather than one of a SCIENTIFIC nature.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Mike
You need to understand that we as responsible keepers and breeders love these animals, live for these animals, care for these animals. When statements are made about how many animals "survived" than it should be factual like the results of the transmitted animals. We don't want our passion and/or livelihood to be put into the hands of the undereducated and misinformed.
To put this information out publicly and not disclose that the mortality rate cannot be proven in a scientific manner by the amount of live found vs dead and to go further and put an actual percentage rate on it is ridiculous and harmful. As I said before there is no way to find all alive or dead but it is much harder to find dead that sought shelter from the cold.
The scientific information is great but pseudo science has no place in this matter. The truth is unless they have transmitters or were observed 24/7 there is no way to put a number on anything.

Brent

As I've said in other replies within this thread... my boss reported the numbers (9 of 10 and 60 of 99) in his testimony yesterday in Washington DC. The reporter worded it in his own way and that is when the "survival rate" language was created. Frank only gave numbers and the testimony is online somewhere if you want to hear it for yourself. That is where the reporter got his information.

Mike

There is room for error. It is certainly possible that there were unintentional multiple duplicate countings of the same live snake to falsely increase the numbers, isn't it?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

...of course it is...do you think they would admit it?...of course not...

-----
1.0 c.b.02' 7' Pastel Colombian Boa(thanks Bill!)"Maverick"
0.1 c.b.06' 6' Firebelly x Pastel boa "Betty Boa"
0.1 c.b. 07 5' Amazon Basin Redtail Boa Lola Boa
1.0 c.b. 05 6' Hypo Sonoran Gophersnake
1.0 c.b. 05'2' Snow Corn "Zero"
1.0 wc Fl.Cornsnake "Iggy"
0.1 cb Okeetee Cornsnake "Bella"
1.0 wc Easteren Hognose Snake "Snape"

I think most of the times when they saw a live python they removed it. This way it is not double counted.

I kinda thought they were referring to visual air sightings. Do you mean to tell me they landed and sent someone out to collect every one? Did any escape?
Wonder over what period of time this took?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I'm believing or disbelieving the numbers either way. It seems to me though that if they are finding these snakes they should have the bodies. They wouldn't have been very good bounty hunters in the days of killing off all the wolves if they didn't bring back the bodies. It seems to me most of the time prosecutors get laughed out of court if they bring murder charges against someone and don't have a body. Not always but most of the time.

I do not disrespect Mike. I am in fact very grateful that he comes here and shares as much as he does, which is probably as much as he is allowed. It is awesome to have one of the very guys who is involved in the field. These issues, these reports, he is there working not just with them, he is one of them. It is pretty much straight from the horses mouth and direct from the absolute front of this war. If you want to call it that.
My agenda, which I do not beat around the bush about, is that I want the legislation restricting importation and ownership of any and every reptile squashed. I am going to post the very opposite of everything that is being used to sway opinion in the other direction. I am going to repeat, as often as I can, that the pythons are filling a void and serving a valuable needed service to the ecosystem down here, and if we were to lose them, it would be far worse than them being there. Exact opposite of what the legislation proponents want to hear. I am going to repeat as often as I can that these pythons are being deliberately released by the very ones making the claims that they are a problem. It is a manufactured “problem”. I am going to say it is blown out of proportion to make the everglades look like it is not worth protecting by greedy land grabbing developers. I am going to claim it is a conspiracy theory and the proof is the false science being used like the claim that the pythons can spread up to Kentucky and are killing native endangered species. I am going to claim that the pet python that supposedly killed that little girl was used to cover up her accidental death by one of her parents. The one surviving radio implanted python was actually in the lab during the cold snap. I am going to share the pictures of the python being beheaded in grisly fashion with animal lovers everywhere in hopes of building sympathy for them. Pythons are actually quite nice and keeping the fringe areas around our homes from being over run with rats and disease carrying vermin animals. They are actually much safer than rattlesnakes. All these things I am going to repeat as if this is the absolute truth. If I repeat it long enough, some will believe it. Just raise a little reasonable doubt. Where did I learn that technique? We can’t just oppose the legislation, you have to turn public opinion. You have to plant the seed for the exact opposite of what they are trying to do. My approach is that the pythons are being used by evil doers for a hidden agenda. Half the public eats that stuff up. So Mike was right on with me. I do apologize to him, because I know he is a good guy. He’s a pretty cool dude from what I know. I just have to fight, not Mike, but the ban on importing, keeping and the restrictions planned for the reptile industry. I’m a venomous keeper, not a python keeper. I’m just preparing for the fight coming my way.

Well said Norman.I have stated that this could be a boost to Florida's economy .There is a agenda but I am not so sure it is hidden any more.These pythons do play a role and have become key players in the ecosystem ,to remove them all may be a mistake.Only time will tell as all of this is cycling to the final destination.Hopefully the laws in place will remain and common sense will prevail . Only time will tell.
-----
Archie Bottoms

"...not a python keeper. I’m just preparing for the fight coming my way."

You are very wise...and getting a good start on things, I'd say.

Thank you for your insight.

jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Man, did anyone else notice this quote from the Miami Herald article:

"On a tree island a mile from the Pahayokee boardwalk, Mike Rochford and two other team members discovered a 15-foot-plus female, one of the largest captured in the park, and three males entwined in a pulsing `mating ball'."

Guess the cold didn't have as much of an impact on them as some have claimed! They're already breeding again!

Also, in response to some other comments here, there is a preponderance of information available that documents just how damaging invasive species are to native species and ecosystems. The burden of proof is on those who disagree. Provide evidence that burms are not having a heavy impact on natives. If you are not willing or able to scientifically prove that, then stop complaining. And the argument that burms have a net zero impact, or that they are filling a niche of other native species, is simply not true. If you put 1 burm in ENP then that statement would be true- it wouldn't have a big impact. If you put 2,000? yeah maybe...If you put 10,000? 30,000? 50,000? Where's the point that you would admit that its possible for these snakes to have a large negative impact on native species? How many native species would have to disappear before you say ok, we should probably do something about this?

Chao

This is a one sided one goal scientific study.The truth is being danced around and Mike knows it.The truth would in fact leave him unemployed Results are scientificly slid in one direction.No positive results will be forth comeing.The death rate was 90% or more yet it is being slid back the other way.Science on a sliding scale is psudo .We are gaining little ground ,yet these guys are helping in a way.The real scientist will look at these results and go hmmmmm.Will it be in time we can only hope.Hey Mike just keep digging I like the size of this hole.
-----
Archie Bottoms

Yes, a 90% death rate for those ten snakes. Nothing to dispute there. I can't speak more about this until the paper is out but being accusatory and closed-minded makes you look less than intelligent. I haven't even said what the survival rate is for all pythons, nor has anyone I work with. My boss said 9 of 10 snakes we were tracking died and he also said that 60 of 99 snakes we found after that survived. You are criticizing the reporter's wording, not ours. If you would like to listen to the wording that the reporter got that information from you should find Frank's testimony from Washington DC yesterday and listen to it. It's online somewhere. That is where the reporter got his information. After listening, you will see for yourself how things get twisted and how it is not our doing. And it will be awesome because you don't even have to take my word for it... you can discover it for yourself.

You are the one digging the hole and you will eat your words when you discover the truth.

Mike

Mike
I think one thing people get mad about is when your word are written out of context by reporters there seems, from our perspective, no atempt to clear up the misrepresentation and when it always happens against us many start to scraem conspiracy.
We also know that the way someone presents info can mislead people. Seeing 99 snakes and 60 of them were alive has zero scientific value because dead snake can't come out to sun themselves if they are hidden even the 90% death rate has little, due to the small sample size and limited age and size variety and was this clearly stated to DC or did they walk out thinking 60% are still alive?
How many babys died 0%? 100%?
This is some of the reasons people are frustrated when there hobby and for some there livelyhood is on the line.
Rob

Rob,

I understand. I think the one thing I've learned from all of this is that it is VERY likely that MOST (maybe 99.99%?) newspaper articles, TV news pieces, magazine articles, etc. on ANY subject has factual errors. So while I understand that you feel targeted by this, I hope you understand that it is probably beyond the scope of python news stories. It's probably happening in everything we read, hear, or see in the media. To combat this, I've started seeking alternative points of view on subjects I'm interested in. For example, I listen to NPR a lot but I wanted to hear real criticisms of the health care bill because I knew NPR would sugar coat it. So I listened to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck to see what they had to say. That's the same reason I read posts here... I want to see what "the other side" (poor choice of words in this case because I don't think we disagree about the legislation) has to say about pythons. I think this is something we should all make a habit of doing when a subject interests us or affects. Just my two cents.

In regard to the story... I would feel a little out of place calling the reporter and explaining the confusion because I barely spoke with him. Though, if he were to ask me about it I would explain why it sounds a little misleading. The thing is... IF they printed a correction it would be hidden somewhere in the paper where nobody reads it and I think the damage is already done. And I don't think the reporter tried to make it sound that way... I think he probably doesn't understand the impact of what he said. And, really, I think the average American just sees the picture of the snake, says "whoa... that's in Florida?... I don't like it." and then goes on to the next story... especially folks in Miami. There are seriously people here who don't even know the Everglades exist.

Again, I can't discuss much about the statistics other than what was already presented. But if you want to know exactly how Frank presented that info you can find an audio recording of the testimony online.

Also, for those who are curious, the paper is done with the internal peer review and has been submitted to the journal. The journal has agreed to give us an expedited review in light of the current political situation so with any luck it will be out very soon!

Mike

Have you ever dealt with reports? Getting them to clarify things is like getting a horse to stop eating grass...damn near impossible. Mike's made good points in other post in this thread that many, if not most, news stories contain factual errors, of varying importance. And having dealt with reports...I'm just really glad work told me not to anymore.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Frank M. yesterday threw us an olive branch and I believe everyone needs to see or read his testimony. I was pleased and think his actions or words speak for themselves. Again I believe we should all try to bury our differences and move forward in a more positive way....
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I think we have had too much of a certain handful of troublemakers on here lately and it is taking time for people to slow down a bit from defensive mode.
I have been reading through Mike R.'s posts on here for a while. He does not seem to be against us. He seems to be doing his job and from what I have seen for the most part he has to be pretty balanced in how he has presented his findings to us.
Debate is one thing but character assassination is another perhaps we should save the defensiveness for the small handful of dunderheads who post on here and actually deserve it.

I tell you what I did go low and will not do that again.I will wait on the facts and let the truth decide.This whole ban thing just is comeing from all directions and if the everglades is the agenda,then why is it on all fronts.I will listen and see what is going on before I punch keys.
-----
Archie Bottoms

I would like everyone to particapate in this little study.
Pretty much everyone now agrees that below lake okeechobeee is about as far north as the pythons will survive in the long term so lets think up all the animals that are in the ENP that are endemic and and all that are feral and see just what is the worst that could happen with the presents of the pythons.
I don't keep large pythons and I enjoy going to the everglades so I don't have an agenda to push here I just think people are making a mountain out of a mole hill and being selective conservationists.
I'll start:
Rob

FERAL

Cats
dogs
rats
mice
cattle egrets
sacred ibis
armadillo
anoles (brown, cuban, bark, etc)
blind snakes

Endemic

tree snial

I'll bite...

FERAL

Mammals -
Capybara (not considered established, but has been reported breeding)
Coyote
Elk
Mexican Red-bellied Squirrel
Nutria
Red Fox
Rhesus Macaque
Sambar Deer
Squirrel Monkey
Vervet Monkey

Birds -
Budgie
Common Myna
Eurasian Collared Dove
European Starling
Hill Myna
House Finch
House Sparrow
Muscovy Duck
Pigeon
Quaker Parrot
Red Whiskered Bulbul
Ringneck Dove
Scarlet Ibis
Spot-breasted Oriole
White Wing Dove

Reptiles -
Ashy Gecko
Boa Constrictor
Burmese Python
Butterfly Lizard
Giant Ameiva
Giant Day Gecko
Green & Brown Basilisk
Green & Spiny Tailed Iguana
House Gecko
Many-lined Grass Skink
Mediterranean Gecko
Moorish Wall Gecko
Nile Monitor
Northern & Red Sided Curlytail Lizard
Ocellated Gecko
Oriental Garden Lizard
Rainbow Lizard
Red Eared Sliders
Red Headed Agama
Spectacled Caimain
Texas Horned Lizard
Tokay Gecko
White-spotted Wall Gecko
Veiled Chameleon

Amphibians -
Cane Toad
Coqui
Cuban Treefrog
Greenhouse Frog

Fish -
Black Acara
Blue Tilapia
Brown Hoplo
Bullseye Snakehead
Butterfly Peacock
Clown Knifefish
Carp
Grass Carp
Jaguar Guapote
Mayan Cichlid
Midas Cichlid
Common Oscar
Tilapia
Suckermouth Catfish
Swamp Eel
Walking Catfish

Some Inverts...(there are so many more of these)
Giant Ramshorn
Spiketop Applesnail
Asian Freshwater Clam

And this is just me listing some stuff that's listed as "established" (reproducing successfully) down there...And I didn't even start listing plants - they can be found here -
http://www.fl-dof.com/forest_management/fh_invasives_index.html
And thats just what they list as invasive. There are thousands of exotic plant species down there.

As for Endemic, if we are looking at Florida as a whole, the list is pretty huge, if we are just concentrating on the Everglades area, and South Florida, and the species who are found there, and no where else...It gets smaller...I can think of -

American Crocodile (not only found here, but this is the only North American population)
Cape Sable Seaside Sparrow
Everglades Ratsnake
Florida Grasshopper Sparrow (though north of the "modern" Glades, really, no wonder its disappearing)
Florida Panther (pretty much all inbred or out-crosses with western or South American animals these days)
Rim Rock Crown Snake
Snail Kite (not only found here, but this is the only North American population)

Thats an interesting point then, if there are really so few endemic land dwelling vertebrate species, (specifically warm blooded Burmese Python snacks) all the "The burms are eating all the endemics" is kind of moot, isn't it? (I am not saying the burms are not consuming native species, but there seems to be a distinct shortage of endemic burm munchables in the everglades) - If I've ignorantly left a bunch out, someone please enlighten me! (I know I skipped fish, inverts, and the large numbers of endemic plant species of the glades)

Ravenspirit,
Thankyou for the contribution and I am glad you are getting my point. I am only interested in everglades endemic which is almost none (I was waiting to see if someone was going to try and slip in american crocs thinking they were endemic)
A point I have made befor here and in other forums is the everglades was only created 8000 to 10000 years ago when sealevels rose from the last ice age befor that is was dryland past key west and with a 3' to 5' rise in sea level, which will happen in the next several thousand years if not sooner, it will disapear under water along with all the animals now there except the crocs and diamond back terapins for them it will be boom time. I think I read somewhere that the evergaldes has come and gone something like 17 times in the last several million years that is why there are so few endemics. Now don't get me wrong I love the everglades and want to keep it clean and healthy but I think most people think of it as some super unique environment like the golapagos, or the amazon rain forest that has to be preserved for it biological diversity instesd it needs to be preserved because its a cool place to visit and is an attraction for visitors to florida and all the invasives actualy make it more of an attraction.
Rob

The South part of Florida will eventually be under water. Sea levels have been rising and are continuing to rise. A lot of it now is due to global warming. Some people don't believe in global warming, but they are just kidding themselves, it is real and it is going to get worse. Although the U.S. is trying very hard to reduce pollution there are countries like China, India, Mexico, and other South American countries kicking out pollution like there is no tomorrow. There are some parts of China that are so polluted it looks like fog everywhere.

Some of the scientific journals that have been written about rising sea levels have now been withdrawn or retracted. The reason is because most scientist say they are too conservative in their estimates.

As the ice continues to melt it also increases the rate at which it melts. Part of the reason is that ice itself reflects the Sun's rays which actually keeps things cooler. When the ice is gone, the water actually absorbs the heat from the Sun increasing the temps, and increasing the rate the ice melts. So the more ice that melts, the melting rate increases.

Even where I live, my house is about two miles from the Gulf of Mexico, so some day my house will be flooded.

The cold winter we just had is the direct result of the El Nino conditions. It has nothing to do with global warming.

So the day will come when the burms will be gone fron the ENP because nothing will be there.

If you haven't watched an documentories on the ice melting and the water that is just flowing out of the ice caps, you should. You won't believe how fast the ice is melting, and you won't believe the flow of water that is running out of the ice.

Even if all pollution stopped today, the gas that is currently in our atmosphere will be there for years to come.

Brd
I was trying to stay away from global warming to show even people who do not believe in it that the evergledes comes and goes naturaly with earth cycles because if you start talking global warming some people will toon you out.
I included the words "if not sooner" to incorporate global warming.
Rob

Sorry, if I upset you. I do see what you are saying about tuning out global warming. Those who tune out global warming are tuning out reality. It's a shame really, because they are living in denial.

Not upset at all I was just trying to keep it simple and include everyone without it turning into a global warming debate and loosing the point about the everglades.
Rob

You guys are both very framiliar with the everglades how many endemic animals (no plants, inverts, or bugs)can you guys come up with?
Rob

This is a VERY complicated question. The short answer is not very many... and I see where you are going with that.

The slightly longer (but not gonna write a book about it) answer is that it depends on what you consider the "everglades" to be. The national park is merely a political boundary. Some people refer to the greater everglades as Lake O and everything south. Others include the chain of lakes along the Lake Whales Ridge. Are we going to include the keys since there are burms there and that is the point of this discussion?

Are we talking about full species only or are we including subspecies (some people have mentioned a few ssp. and that's why I ask)?

The peninsular effect really limits diversity down here at the species level but at the subspecific level we have a boat load of "endemics." Plenty of herp species have a keys ssp. or a south FL ssp.

Anyway, I totally get what you're saying. I'm just throwing all that out there for fun.

Mike

But Mike, with the "lumpers' semmingly holding sway in herp taxonomy at the moment,we may be losing a lot of those south Florida endemics. Not happy about that-with herps I regard myself as a splitter (since herps are relatively immobile-highly motile species like birds should, in general, be "lumped" much more often IMHO).
-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Jungle Carpet Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase, Striped Desert, Newport, and Coastal California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

There has been a bit of lumping taking the subspecies out of the picture only giving them the distinction of a local form.This is the story mdna and dna.Many will always see a cainbreak as a cainbreak and not a timber.With an area where exotic out number the nominate species the everglades offer a wide range for study I would think.That alone makes the area unique and valuable as a living laboratory and tourist attraction.If we could embrace our own mistakes and exploit the new ecosystem there will be a day balance will be achieved .The replaced system is working on many levels as it is now.As we remove species the balance changes and population explosions will occur from one species to another.The fact is the sea of grass is no longer.The replaced habitat is close but not the same.The burmese python could be scene as the success of the new system and exploited as such instead of the blackball species.It is only one of many invaders.The cash price on the elimination of one could be followed by the crash of another.My views mean nothing but I think millions will be spent first before reality sets in.
-----
Archie Bottoms

Mike,
As the Everglades I was prety much including all "natural" areas below lake O that is also about the limit of berms living sucessfuly for the long run.
The question of ssp. is a complicated one mainly because most ssp's have been determined by visual caracteristics and how much they are different genticaly may be little or none. Most animals that are geographicly isolated for even a few hundred years with no "new blood" added will change enough to look or be new ssp. I have often thought if a scientist who had never seen or heard of a dog was doing the taxonomy of them hew many sp and ssp would they come up with. Because we know the history of them we we say they are all the same. The iguanas on the islands in the sea of cortez are believed to be released by indians long ago from the mainland but have enough physical differences now to be a different ssp. Think about if I took a banana cal king back in time 200 years and let it go on catalina island today we would probobly consider it a new sp visualy after only 30 years of selective breeding.
Just a few thought about the whole ssp thing.
If you want to include ssp to make it easy just include animals that would be affected by bermese pythons since that is the main focus of the topic and seperate sp from ssp
Rob

And by default, on the same level, when one looks at "splitting" that would/will make the house mice, norway rats, euro starlings, house sparrows, cattle egrets, collared dove, hogs, Quaker parrots, and yes, even iguanas and burms, different enough to be listed as subspecies when compared to the nominate populations in time...

I was there about 2 weeks ago, and the ones there look more like foxes than raccoons. Is this normal for them?

Most mammals here in Florida are much smaller than their northern cousins including Raccoons...A BIG BUCK DEER here weighs only 150 lbs...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I don't know Tom. That is generally true however the biggest raccoon I ever saw was in longwood florida about 12 yrs ago. If it hadn't had a tail I would have thought it was a small bear cub. before I lived here I lived in the adirondacks in N.Y. and I grew up in Tx. before that so I am aware of the size difference between North and South. I laugh at all the "400 pound" bears running around cfl but I do have to give credit where credit is do. I definitely did a triple take on that raccoon and no I wasn't drinking lol.

Your definitely right on the generaly part as an enormous Black Bear began hanging around "Joanies Blue Crab Cafe" in Ochoppe, Fl. on the TamiAmi Trail in the early 2000's. I saw him many times and he was or looked as big as an average Grizzly and he had NO fear of people and raided the dumpster regularly. The folks living in Copeland began giving him a 6 pack of Bud every day also and they would watch him drink it at their feet. Sometimes some moron would even pet him. The Park Service decided something BAD was going to happen so the sedated hm and he weighed in excess of 500 lbs. They then took him down somwhere in "The Hole in The Donut" part of the Glades and he hot footed it back towards Joanies and caused a bad accident and was killed crossing the TamiAmi. The occupants of the vehicle were hurt as well. Bad ending for a good Bear turned bad by people. I hated to see him die. If you ever find yourself at Joanies check out the "giant Bear pics" she has on the wall and that's him. I met Patty when she worked there so long ago and she knew the bear well. When they were dumping and he was there they would bang on the side, step back, and wait for him to vacate. In the daytime he would sleep in the Brazilian Pepper bushes in th back and at dusk begin at the dumpster and then walk to Copeland for beer and snacks. I always think about him when I'm out that way. He had a "bear beer belly" and his massive size indicated that..Sorry for the long story...
-----
Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I always enjoy listening to your experiences.
-----
1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old

Me too. Are you working on that book?
jsc
-----
"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

A good bear story. Between living in paisley here in fl. and having lived in the adirondacks in N.Y. I have had some interesting run-ins with bears but that would make for a long ot post. I can tell you that my 2 husky mix dogs make me do some sort of terrestrial version of water skiing every time I encounter a bear on our walks. I know why they use huskies to pull sleds and I thank God we don't have grizzly's here in Fl. cause if we did I'd be dead lol.

Provide evidence that burms are not having a heavy impact on natives.

The numbers provided by the reserch and the people doing it themselves are proving this, that's why all the doomsday scenarios are based on........they could do this, this might happen, we need to before etc., Guess work. All the gray areas scientist love to hide behind when trying to convince people to see things their way. At this point there is no reason for anyone to push the panic button and the actual numbers prove that if viewed with in the full spectrum of what is actually occurring in the glades, and not within the confines of the pick and choose method that's been par for the course to this point.
Anyone with more then a "google" understanding can see this but ..............................

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REP[TILE FARM INC.

Both Mike and Frank have been very helpful.
Frank emailed me within a couple hours of my first post on KS forum to clarify a few of my question and the words that went into print were not what Frank was trying to provide the readers. All information he provided is correct but in no way was he trying to state that there was a 60% "survival rate".

Anyone that would like a copy of the written testimony by Frank Mazzotti. Please email me and I will forward it to you.

Thanks
Brent Beilstein

racin@adams.net