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I bought an '09 Desert Kingsnake yesterday at a reptile expo. I have only been keeping snakes since November, so I don't know everything there is to know about them obviously. But this is my third snake, and third kingsnake.

Anyway...the car ride home was about two hours. It was from about 4PM to 6PM. The sun was shining in the car most of the time. The snake was in a round plastic container, and I was holding it in my lap. I think he may have gotten too warm. He was very active in the plastic container. I should have paid more attention, and I feel very stupid. When we got home, his movement stopped. I thought since he had gotten too warm he may have been thirsty, so I filled the bathroom sink with a bit of water, and held him up to it so he could drink since I hadn't set up his tank yet. He drank the water for about 30 seconds.

He seemed fine the rest of the day. But today when I woke up I noticed he was acting weird. Thrashing around uncontrollably with his mouth open. My boyfriend took him out and held him for a few minutes, then he calmed down and acted perfectly normal so he put him back. That was around 9 AM. I left for work around 10:30. When I got home around 8 PM, I saw that he was thrashing around again with his mouth open. I tried holding him, as that had calmed him down earlier, but he won't stop moving.

Does this sound like heat stroke, or could it be something else? Anyone have any experiences with behavior like this?

This could be caused by heat stroke, but it could also be other problems. If you feel comfortable with the breeder, then you can assume it's a new problem. If not, it may have had this problem prior to you buying it. Trauma and toxicity are two other common causes of neurological problems.

Ian

Yes, hello. My name is Timothy, the boyfriend of "Countessnaamah" whom made this initial post, and I just wanted to add/adjust a detail or two of her post.

First, yes, it was a 2-hour ride home heading south then west towards a sun soon to set, and it was shining through the windshield (= greenhouse effect) most of that ride and onto the little '09 Desert King sitting in its container on my girlfriend's lap with not enough shavings to escape under from a possible overwhelming heat.

The movement didn't actually stop when We got home; rather, it stopped only an hour tops from when We left - he was quite active for the first half hour, and looking back, almost like he was trying to escape possible excessive heat to which I am frustrated at myself for my 18 years of experience being completely oblivious to this! Anyway, his head was drooped over his body the latter half of the ride, being totally motionless, and I was becoming more & more concerned and of wonder the nearer to home We came to be.

When We got home, "Speckles" We called him, was alive and seemingly okay though not moving enough to me, and as my girlfriend stated, she filled the bathroom sink up with some water and held him up to it, in which he drank heavily for a good 20-30 seconds. We put him in an enclosure which a previous '09 baby We purchased in November was inhabiting, but placing new bark & spraying with Provent-a-Mite, and cleaning the cage furniture in simple tap water (no soap or anything) with a sponge and fingernail brush. We put him in, and he was good for the rest of the night.

Yesterday (Monday) morning--approximately a half hour after the light would've turned on--and at night after the lights had gone off, the quirky movements addressed by my girlfriend were taking place. He was making "thrashing"/jerky/snappy head movements, often towards his neck, the mouth occasionally (snapping) agape...almost as though something was on him, like an 'itch.' The tail also twitched and curled, especially when (even softly) touched. It kind of looked like a baby copperhead or southern hognose snake using its tail as a lure for anurans, but I'm pretty certain Desert Kings don't have that in their nature, especially since their tails aren't discoloured. And the tail issue...

...could lead to a second possibility of this concerning behavior: an improper probing. The gentleman at the reptile show We bought Speckles from wasn't comfortable with popping, but the probing wasn't proving easy neither. NOTE: We know of at least one person (a child a half-hour earlier or so) who held the snake although he was very gentle, but at a reptile show--and being the specimen at top--who knows how many people held him, and...perhaps this caused stress/trauma? I know I'm mixing two topics/theories into one paragraph here, but I suppose I'm suggesting the possibility of the probing adding to possible stress/trauma (though I don't see how the above-mentioned quirky movements would come from that) or, if done improperly, could be causing this behaviour in Our little, new addition...?

NOTE: When I hold Speckles for a bit--a few mintes perhaps--he calms down, kind of like after his half-hour of 'racing around' in his container on the way home...almost as though he's chilly, thus these quirky movements (= 'reverse reaction' from possibly being too warm, and now sensitive to either temperature extreme), and though he drinks every time he's put near a bowl or crawls to it himself, he will--even after holding him for a few minutes to where he calms down--starts to act up again, like he needs the water, but it chills him down at the same time...? During the heat of the day yesterday--ALL day--he was completely normal, under the inch or so of Repti-Bark substrate, occasionally changing positions slightly which is natural and normal (= good). And NOTE that it was after the lights went out, that he became 'wacky.'

What do You think???

The only other theory of slight possibility for this quirky behaviour is possibly spraying too much Provent-a-Mite (which I have been using for years, DO note, and with babies, too, such as the one that was inhabiting Speckles' enclosure before him) and/or not letting it sit long enough. (Of course, I spray with the inhabitant(s) NOT in the enclosure!) It is a 5 1/2-gallon aquarium, in which even a few jets of this stuff can make for thickly toxic air, thus needs to be aired out thoroughly which I am always conscious of doing, but I suppose anyone can slip... :/

Still, I am quite confident this is NOT the issue; however, I will be thoroughly cleaning his enclosure again today after I get up from sleep--currently, it is after 2 AM I am writing this, heh--using new bark sprayed with Provent-a-Mite a little more lightly, and NOT in the little enclosure - I will spray within a bigger container, more "open." I will also use a 'fresh' sponge for wiping the glass sides.

Please - ANYbody and EVERYbody, ANY and ALL input is welcomed. I have kept snakes for 18 years (since 11/21/91), but even the most experienced keepers keep learning, and they make mistakes and even suffer losses. SO...yeah, I've humbled myself and can use help right about now. We may have only had this snake for a day, but every life matters to Us, and THIS one is in OUR hands! We have already become attached, and I/We will take every measure feasible to ensure its comfortable survival.

Sincerely,
Timothy

>>I bought an '09 Desert Kingsnake yesterday at a reptile expo. I have only been keeping snakes since November, so I don't know everything there is to know about them obviously. But this is my third snake, and third kingsnake.
>>
>>Anyway...the car ride home was about two hours. It was from about 4PM to 6PM. The sun was shining in the car most of the time. The snake was in a round plastic container, and I was holding it in my lap. I think he may have gotten too warm. He was very active in the plastic container. I should have paid more attention, and I feel very stupid. When we got home, his movement stopped. I thought since he had gotten too warm he may have been thirsty, so I filled the bathroom sink with a bit of water, and held him up to it so he could drink since I hadn't set up his tank yet. He drank the water for about 30 seconds.
>>
>>He seemed fine the rest of the day. But today when I woke up I noticed he was acting weird. Thrashing around uncontrollably with his mouth open. My boyfriend took him out and held him for a few minutes, then he calmed down and acted perfectly normal so he put him back. That was around 9 AM. I left for work around 10:30. When I got home around 8 PM, I saw that he was thrashing around again with his mouth open. I tried holding him, as that had calmed him down earlier, but he won't stop moving.
>>
>>Does this sound like heat stroke, or could it be something else? Anyone have any experiences with behavior like this?
-----
T.J. Gould

Unfortunately it sounds like this could be "all of the above"; heat stroke, toxicity, and trauma, or any combination. In such a small animal, and such a complicated history, it would be very difficult to find out what exactly caused this. I think the best course of action right now is to address the symptoms, with or without the help of a vet (personal decision on your part). I"ll try to further the discussion a bit to give you a little background information to work with.

From your history, I would place overheating at the top of my list of possible causes. Overheating an animal can definately cause neurological signs that may or may not be perminant. Although serious, usually a more pertinent matter is "DIC" or desciminated intravascular coagulation. This is the clotting of blood throughout the circulatory system, essentially cutting off supply to the tissues. Brick red, mottled, or other discolouration to the mucous membranes (gums, cloaca) in the first day or two will strongly support the presence of DIC.
Support your snake by allowing free access to water (perhaps add a small concentration of electrolytes), proper husbandry temperatures, and rest in a stress free environment. Warm water to 80F to avoid cooling the snake. Veterinary help will likely include parental fluids of a more appropriate type and supportive medications.

The toxicity of potential concern is a permethryn if I'm not mistaken (and I probably spelled it wrong). This type of chemical definately can cause neurological symptoms but has been treated successfully. Hatchlings and small reptiles are most likely to be "overdosed" and I don't recommend use for these animals unless absolutely necessary. Treatment requires the absolute removal of the toxin. At this point overall health is a priority to mite protection. If quarantine is a concern for your current collection (as it should be with any new addition), keep the enclosure in a different room on the opposite side of the house if possible. Treatment is supportive in allowing the animal to metabolise and/or excrete the toxin. To do this the animal must be optimally, or even slightly hyper-hydrated. See the treatment advice for overheating.

Trauma to the head might explain the behavior. This of course could be caused by handling or being caught in the lid of the container during the many possible handlings at a reptile show. While probing can definately cause problems, I wouldn't expect anything above the tail region to be affected (unless the restrainer caused damage elsewhere). While the tail may have been damaged, the tail behavior may also be explained by whatever neurological problem is present.

The problem with such small animals is that diagnostics and sampling are very difficult. Still, X-rays or other imaging if available would be a good idea and might prove revealing. I doubt enough blood could be taken to test for a toxicity, but important values (especially in regards to heat stroke) like the PCV, and total protein, and cell count and integrity can be measured. If such a concern as intracranial pressure is present, then drugs like Mannitol are available to treat the problem. Heparin might be needed to battle DIC if suspected. These are just examples of what a vet might be considering for your snake's condition. As always, having a vet experienced with reptiles is an asset.

For you, you face the decision of facing this yourself, or getting the help of your veterinarian. Either way, at some point, you need to address the quality of life of the snake. Is it improving? Does it look like it will have a good quality of life? Is euthanasia a good idea at this time?

I hope this helps a bit, good luck!

My personal opinion is that you have a toxicity issue directly related to the Provent a Mite. I have seen neurological issues brought on by excessive heat and they typically manifest themselves in the form of a very lethargic snake, not one that is overly active. These snakes were also unable to drink on their own unlike this kingsnake. Although I believe the snake was overheated, it doesn’t sound like it was to the point of physiological damage. Injury during probing to the degree that it would cause this behavior is highly unlikely and would also definitely show some blood loss. The thrashing and jerky movements and mouth agape all would indicate to me a form of neurological damage brought on by a chemical toxicity issue.

One rule that should be strictly followed with the use of Provent a Mite is to not spray it directly on the reptile. You knew not to do this, but the spraying of the bark substrate could be a problem for very small snakes. The bark can absorb the spray and hold it for extending periods, slowly releasing it over time. The bark could also delay the drying time as well. Lab studies during the initial development phase of this material showed that PAM did cause the death of some small reptiles when it came into direct contact with the body. Most survived but there were a few deaths recorded. With larger reptiles I feel it is fine to follow the directions with regards to spraying the interior of the cage and letting it dry, and keeping water bowls out for a day or so. However, with smaller colubrids, I feel it is best to allow the PAM to stay in the cage for about an hour after spraying and then wipe the residual up with paper towels before putting the animal and bedding back in. This has proven safe and effective with the smaller snakes. The other procedure that can be done concurrently is to spray the exterior of the cage as well, with the residual killing any mites moving from or into the cage. This completely eliminates any possibility of direct contact with the chemical for really small reptiles. Please let us know how things turn out.

Kelly

Thank you for your input, joeysgreen and kelly haller.

Luckily, the snake has been acting completely normal the second half of yesterday, and all day today. We got him to eat two pinkies yesterday! He hasn't been acting twitchy at all since the 12th. I believe that he was acting that way because of too much PAM sprayed. He was sleeping most of the day on the 13th, and half of the day yesterday. I think this may have been because of the heat he was exposed to, or it could be because of the PAM. I have a video of the way he was acting, I'll post a link. He would twitch and curl his tail while in his tank, and outside of his tank if he drank from his water bowl. I believe some may have gotten in his water, and that's why he acted that way.

I have cleaned his water bowl, and will be putting a different substrate in his tank tomorrow. I currently have bark in there, I'm going to be putting in eco earth coconut substrate. I'm also going to clean his enclosure thoroughly to make sure there are no traces of PAM left. I think most of it is gone by now, though. Just want to be safe.

Thank you for all of your help!
Link to video of the snake.

Oh yeah, here's an updated video of Speckles that I took today!
He's acting pretty much normal now.

...the light briefly turned on to record that video, hence the lower temperature for those who may have caught that and became concerned, heh.

>>Oh yeah, here's an updated video of Speckles that I took today!
>>He's acting pretty much normal now.
-----
T.J. Gould

Joeysgreen,

Thank You very, VERY much for Your input and the time it took to do so - it is much appreciated! And sorry it has taken me a couple of days to get back - have been busy with not just the Desert King, but also a new Banded Elephant Trunk Snake (Acrochordus, or perhaps still Chersydrus by some, granulatus) I purchased at the show as well (they require a LOT more maintainence than most other snakes sold in the herpetocultural industry - acrochordus.com/).

Typically, it is my style to reply to each-and-every little thing of a message, email, et cetera, however, I will start this off with...SPECKLES IS DOING MUCH BETTER!!!! Yeah, the latter half of Tuesday, and all day yesterday, he has been coming out of his previous condition!! And...(!!)...HE ATE TWO (2) PINKIES, AND OUT OF OUR HANDS!!!! He was active this morning (Thursday) and after the light went off tonight, crawling all around, tongue flickering, being normal.

Heh, sorry there, but We're of course over-joyed he has gotten better. Still, to address Your hypotheses on what could have caused his unhealthy condition, I would agree it was all of the above, each to their own degree. But the more and more I think about it, I have had snakes experience quite the heat (!)--usually able to get away from it enough, though, such as getting under the nicely dense substrate I typically provide or their hideout, and doing so on the cooler side of the enclosure of course--but they don't suffer any (neurological) symptoms such as Speckles did.

This leads me to believe it may have been more of the Provent-a-Mite (PAM). I only sprayed the substate, and I let it air out for a few minutes, but I'm thinking with such the activity of a baby snake--and he was fine the first night--his little body picking up perhaps more (un-dried/un-settled?) particles of PAM than I should have left, inhaling any possible excessive residue, and very likely crawling through his water at some point in the evening and very drinking some from his possible heat stroke...yeeeaahhh, I'd say there was a good chance he ingested some toxicity. I also find it too coincidental that he'd do better when outside of his enclosure where the air wasn't so thick (with toxicity).

Nonetheless, the PAM has definitely all dried by now, We've cleaned his water bowl every day/refilled, he's eaten, and only 24 hours later after eating, crawling around/flickering his tongue/moving his eyes like normal. (Yeah, it seemed his pupils wouldn't move (much) Monday and earlier half of Tuesday.)

We have decided to use a substrate that I use for my 1.1 Heterodon nasicus: Eco Earth (by Zoo Med? I forget, heh) which works really well and is naturally a more dry/arid substrate = suitable for a Desert King, I believe, and thus mite-free. (Of course, it can be damped nicely, too, and used for nesting boxes such as I currently have for my 0.1 H. nasicus.) We will perform this change tomorrow, and We also got some nice flat rocks (and light!) by CC Pet Products, in which my girlfriend constructed a nice, naturalistic-appealing rock cave for Speckles with. ...also, a cactus, ha!

Anyway, my solution to 'curing' Speckles' condition was--whether considered risky or not by some--to let Nature take Its course. As I have read about "white spot fungus" on A. granulatus--not that mine has it thankfully --and the medication being NONE, and rather to just keep aquarium conditions optimum...well, I suppose We can say We just kept Speckles' terrarium conditions optimum, monitoring temperature/humidity constantly, kept a close eye on him, held him daily, and successfully fed him (that took patience, I tell You (!), as he showed MUCH interest but took 10-15 minutes each pinkie before opening his mouth to consume, ha! ...and remember, this was in the hands...gods, were We sore...wish We video-taped that for You all, especially since it was cute...ah well).

Well, I believe that's it for now (though I respond to everyone, and it looks as though I have another response or two to do), but thanks again, "Joeysgreen," for Your time and help - I still learned new stuff from You, such as the DIC.

Sincerely,
Timothy

P.S. I didn't proof-read this, so, sorry if there are typos, something doesn't make sense, or 'fancy fonts' didn't work, haha.

>>Unfortunately it sounds like this could be "all of the above"; heat stroke, toxicity, and trauma, or any combination. In such a small animal, and such a complicated history, it would be very difficult to find out what exactly caused this. I think the best course of action right now is to address the symptoms, with or without the help of a vet (personal decision on your part). I"ll try to further the discussion a bit to give you a little background information to work with.
>>
>>From your history, I would place overheating at the top of my list of possible causes. Overheating an animal can definately cause neurological signs that may or may not be perminant. Although serious, usually a more pertinent matter is "DIC" or desciminated intravascular coagulation. This is the clotting of blood throughout the circulatory system, essentially cutting off supply to the tissues. Brick red, mottled, or other discolouration to the mucous membranes (gums, cloaca) in the first day or two will strongly support the presence of DIC.
>>Support your snake by allowing free access to water (perhaps add a small concentration of electrolytes), proper husbandry temperatures, and rest in a stress free environment. Warm water to 80F to avoid cooling the snake. Veterinary help will likely include parental fluids of a more appropriate type and supportive medications.
>>
>>The toxicity of potential concern is a permethryn if I'm not mistaken (and I probably spelled it wrong). This type of chemical definately can cause neurological symptoms but has been treated successfully. Hatchlings and small reptiles are most likely to be "overdosed" and I don't recommend use for these animals unless absolutely necessary. Treatment requires the absolute removal of the toxin. At this point overall health is a priority to mite protection. If quarantine is a concern for your current collection (as it should be with any new addition), keep the enclosure in a different room on the opposite side of the house if possible. Treatment is supportive in allowing the animal to metabolise and/or excrete the toxin. To do this the animal must be optimally, or even slightly hyper-hydrated. See the treatment advice for overheating.
>>
>>Trauma to the head might explain the behavior. This of course could be caused by handling or being caught in the lid of the container during the many possible handlings at a reptile show. While probing can definately cause problems, I wouldn't expect anything above the tail region to be affected (unless the restrainer caused damage elsewhere). While the tail may have been damaged, the tail behavior may also be explained by whatever neurological problem is present.
>>
>>The problem with such small animals is that diagnostics and sampling are very difficult. Still, X-rays or other imaging if available would be a good idea and might prove revealing. I doubt enough blood could be taken to test for a toxicity, but important values (especially in regards to heat stroke) like the PCV, and total protein, and cell count and integrity can be measured. If such a concern as intracranial pressure is present, then drugs like Mannitol are available to treat the problem. Heparin might be needed to battle DIC if suspected. These are just examples of what a vet might be considering for your snake's condition. As always, having a vet experienced with reptiles is an asset.
>>
>>For you, you face the decision of facing this yourself, or getting the help of your veterinarian. Either way, at some point, you need to address the quality of life of the snake. Is it improving? Does it look like it will have a good quality of life? Is euthanasia a good idea at this time?
>>
>>I hope this helps a bit, good luck!

-----
T.J. Gould

I'm happy the snake is doing much better