Reptile & Amphibian Forums

(I posted this question a while back but did not get any responses.)

Is this normal?

He has four fingers on each of his front legs, but only three toes on each foot.

For comparison, my female has four and four. Could he be a hybrid of some sort? Other than the toes, he is undeniably a Russian.

Should I euthanize?

>>(I posted this question a while back but did not get any responses.)
>>
>>Is this normal?
>>
>>He has four fingers on each of his front legs, but only three toes on each foot.
>>
>>For comparison, my female has four and four. Could he be a hybrid of some sort? Other than the toes, he is undeniably a Russian.
>>
>>Should I euthanize?

NO you shouldn't euthanize. It's a pet, not the final link in the survival of a "pure" species.

Do a good job of keeping it an enjoy it for what it is.

Post a photo if you can.

for [insert deity of your choice here]'s sake, don't euthanize the poor thing just because of his toes! why would you even consider doing that to a healthy animal?!?!

if you only wanted him for a breeder, adopt him out to someone who wants him for a pet!

I know of no tortoise that typically has three toes on its back feet.
Therefore hybridization does not seem like a rational theory.
I'm thinking it's probably a birth defect or it lost its toes (or toenails) via an accident/predator.

Tim

PLEASE, No DEATH PANNELS for turtles! Isnt there a three toed box turtle here in Fl. i've captured E/f boxies with three or four toes on them many times. In fact I had a Older than dirt FBT with the wrong amount of toes on three of four feet,including 6 on one foot. He also had his beak cut off short somehow, and a hole in his carapace with a spider wed crack like a broken car windshield from a bullet and many chipped and busted marginals. I sure miss old "scrap Iron". He was a fifteen yr. captive with a white face when I got him that a "used to be friend" let go accidently on stupid by not paying attention. errrrrr. I've got one born with no eyes that is 5 now. Some day I'll tell you about Quazzymoto a freeky mt.tortoise that looks like a discombobulated 60 lb.swayback Pancake/mt.tort. hybred. Got one this year with a curved spine. Looks like he'll only be able to walk in a circle. Vic

I can only hope that I can live long enough to get the experience and respect that Vic Morgan has. He knows more about torts than I ever will.

However, I would not have considered keeping an eyeless tortoise alive, nor an animal that can only walk in circles. Herp breeders (and I'm one) talk all the time about preserving the species and keeping races pure. Even though habitat destruction and human collection for food or otherwise is a major problem, it would be nice to have some pure animals that could be introduced into the wild. Hopefully the blind/lame animals are kept in a no kill area but don't breed. If that is so, I admire the dedication.

It seems that the breeding program of Mtn torts is very successful so I can't see keeping one animal alive as a precious source of diversity. Rescued box turtles are a different story and I have no problem with preserving a mobile feeding animal that has been mauled by man or beast.

I vote don't euthanize the Russian with three toes and I would breed it, but don't breed the deformed torts and consider euthanizing such hatchlings in the future.

This is my humble 2 cents.

Knowing Vic pretty well you don't have to worry about him tainting the gene pool by introduction of the blind emys Pharyrei into his excellent husbandry and breeding program I have observed.
I myself kept a redfoot that did not develop one eye. A well known reptile vet told me in this tortoises case the abnormality was caused most likely by high temperatures during the gestation period and would not be passed on genetically. I'm not sure about the tortoise Vic owns but I have seen it and it thrives.
Here is "my two cents" - Trust in this breeders knowledge and compassion and rest easy tonight the gene pool is strong in St. Agustine Florida when it comes to the brown and black emy's.
Later Richard
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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

You did not give your name but I respect your comments. I regret not putting down the eyeless phayrei. It will never be bred. But it does get personal care. I did learn that after birth it did not feed when I kept it alone because of its deformity. When kept with its sibblings it learned to eat by hearing the others and finding them by sent. It is only about a year behind its sibblings after five years. I was just morbidly curious. I dont know of anything else I will learn from it other than not to keep one alive again. I did call the late Dr.B.bonner DVM of the case to help me understand how or why this happened in case it was environmental,like from pollution, pestacides ect. She said it was not and that it was a 1 in 10,000 chanch for a lot of animals.(A lot of Burmese Pythons had it in the early nindy's) So maybe I also learned what it was not. The tortoise did have the tear duct and would have a droplett or tear coming from a pore in the skin. Maybe I should have given it to UF for reserch as I did some Green Iguanas one time. As far as the one with the curved spine, I was joking about it walking in circles. I should have added the LOL. I will never sell it or breed it. It will grow up here with Quazzy and be a pet. Nothing leaves here for sale that is not perfect. Thanks for your thoughful responce and kind words. Vic.........pic Perfect phayrei

well, i for one admire your compassion. why not give them a chance at a safe, happy life, as long as they are not suffering?

i also have to admit that my curiosity had been piqued. do you have any pics of quazzy and the others?

I really need to up date my kingsnake photos. I'll get my people to get with your people and get'er done. Vic

I recall and earlier post made by "justwandering" that stated tortoises with split scutes / extra scutes would be more valuable to him.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you feel that this abnormality is always caused by temperature and thus would give you a better chance of knowing the gender of the tortoise.
I do agree that scute abnormalities do happen as result of high temps. It would be hard to dismiss that irregular scute formation found effecting the same scutes has occur as evidenced when a parent demonstrating the abnormality has an offspring with the same scutes effected. Numerous cases of this happening can be found by just researching this.
So are you thinking the importance of the pure gene concept is worth the gamble that it is "always high temp" that leads to these split and extra scutes.....Interesting concept but not one I subscribe to.

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Richard -amazoa-

"Changes in behavior occur when the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

On the topic of split scutes being genetic- I would defer to someone who has lots of field experience or perhaps someone who commercially breeds large numbers of animals. I understand that a large breeder may not know who sired a clutch or even which animal laid the eggs so the genetics might be hard to figure unless some huge clutch layers (eg sulcata) with split scutes had a majority of hatchlings with split scutes on a consistent basis. I was just going by the conventional wisdom of high incubation temps=more split scutes. It has been pointed out to me that some males have split scutes and the specifics of TDSD is unknown in some torts so my hypothesis that high temps=more split scutes= more likely female tortoise is questionable.

Even if there is a genetic component, I suppose I am putting split scutes in the category of "three toes on back legs" as opposed to more drastic abnormalities.

I emphasize that I in no way question the motivation or experience of Vic Morgan, and maybe someday I will have a hatchlng that is blind or deformed in some way, raise it as a challenge and become attached to it.