Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Passed 35/0 votes.. Not one person voted in our favour.. what does this mean????? No more of the 9 larger constictors?

Lets talk about it.... Whats going on with the vote today?????

I'm afraid I don't have a clue what you're talking about. I spoke with Mack Robinette today (VP of USARK) and he doesn't know anything about a vote either. He spoke with Andrew Wyatt last night and he didn't say anything about a vote today. If it was anything major they would know about it for sure.

Where did you hear about this?

Is it federal? State?

It can't be related to the USFWS rule change request because the 60 day comment period isn't over yet. It also can't be the (federal) house or senate because neither one of those have just 35 members. That leads me to believe that A. It's an unfounded rumor, or B. it's a local issue somewhere (which is why nobody has heard about it).

Let me know if you hear anything more...

Someone in FL told me about it.. That it was the senate and will now go threw the house.. Im not really sure, or know where they got that info.. I believe he said it was on the news in FL.

that may be the ban regarding the ROC in FL then... i had heard they would be extending the ROC regulations to an outright ban soon. let me do some checking and i'll get back with you...

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=42380&BillText=reptile&HouseChamber=B&SessionId=64&

from what i can tell, this bill further clamps down on the ROC.

as i understand it, currently keepers of ROC must have a permit, but can continue to buy and sell ROC.

this new law will not only require keepers of the ROC to obtain a permit (before july 1, 2010) to keep their animals, but will prohibit any further sales or acquisitions of new ROC.

they will also be subject to periodic inspections by the FFWS, and if they are found to be keeping any of the ROC in violation of certain caging standards, they will have 30 days to correct the violation, or their permit will be revoked.

that's just what i came up with in the last 30 mins, so don't take it as gospel truth, but it should be a decent representation of what it all means.

FWS doesn't really want it, but it's being adopted by the Dept of the Interior people. I'd say the ROC are pretty well dead. Not that I'm happy about it, but I'd say it's pretty much a done deal. Not immediately, but it's happening.

And no, there's not rational thought behind it.

This is what it was all about...

http://www.wptv.com/content/news/topstories/story/burmese-python-ban-florida-legislature-everglades/PyeWJwYcg0uycCFSBLVkHw.cspx

The article makes it sounds like ALL reptiles could potentially be banned in FL. However, I'm guessing they only meant ROCs. Anyone know for sure?

Mike

Whats "ROC". Sorry for not knowing.
-Steve

The actual wording of the legislation states (several times) that it only applies to the ROC.

ROC stands for "reptiles of concern," which include the Burmese pythons, green anacondas, reticulated pythons, African rock pythons, amethystine pythons, and Nile monitor lizards.

Thanks for the info!!

where are the scientists that are part of the everglades burm study when these laws are being passed? How can these uninformed people/politicians be allowed to make laws with such wrong information? I understand that the scientific/zoological/animal rights community don't think that the general public has the capability to keep exotics properly but to allow this obviously incorrect information to be accepted as truth is rediculous. You say you wonder if all snakes are going to be included, well of course they will over time. That is what the people pushing these laws want. Any time a species of snake is found in the wild even in very isolated circumstances, there will be a push to get that banned as well. I no longer live in the state of Fl but still contact my former state legislators but my voice means nothing to them when I lived there or now. What matters is the "Scientists" that are telling them what they want to hear. I am disgusted by this!!!! The genetic studies that have been done is either not being relayed to the politicians or they are ignoring it. If they are ignoring it, than those that are part of the study need to go public so that the laws that are passed are being done so with all information available. I understand that the initial release was caused by the pet trade (either by an irresposible dealer or by horrible caging with no evacuation plan for hurricanes) but those problems have been fixed with the current regulations. It is 100% obvious that the problem in the glades is not caused by a continual pet release epidemic but that is what the politicians are either being fed or purposefully lie and feed the public. Either way, those with the facts to come out and let the public know!!!!
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

This is a state legislative proposal in Florida... not federal. It has nothing to do with the '9'. This is the state legislative proposal sponsored by Senator Soble... S318. It seeks to ban ownership of Reptiles of Concern aka ROC's as pets in FL. (Burm, retic, N. African, Scrub, green conda and Nile monitor). Comercially licensed interests would be able to continue to breed, buy and sell to other commercial interests in Fl, as well as sell out of state. Current holders of licensed pets could keep them til they die, but can not replace them.(Grandfathered) No new licenses would be issued. Status would be elevated from ROC to Restricted Species. This has now passed the senate 35-0. It must still pass the House, be reconciled and get signed by Governor before it becomes law. I believe all of that will happen. They are railroading this through.
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USARK

Andrew, weren't they trying to push boas through w/that? I know it's all 4 types of anacondas.

Sobel thinks that pythons are eating machines eliminating all native wildlife. Anyone want to tell her how seldom pythons actualy eat in the wild?

It does not include all for species of anaconda that was on the FEDERAL level this legislation is on the STATE level here in fl. My only hope right now is that this doesn't go through the house. There was a bill that would have banned texting while driving that enjoyed popular support here that made in through the senate 36-4 and the house decided they do not have time for it so it got shelved.
Quite honestly I feel like we've been thrown under the bus here in fl and quite honestly I'm pretty pixxed off right now. You can now officially say that there is no difference between the 2 main parties in this state as far as I am concerned.
Democrats proposed this bill and our republican majority voted it in 36-0 I believe.
That means 4 of those cowards didn't even have the guts to vote on it. I'd be willing to bet one of those 4 is that coward rubio because we know he waits to see which way the wind blows before he does anything just like he did with the immigration reform controversy going on now. Well let me tell which way the wind is blowing mr. rubio as much as I dislike kendrick meeks or the idea of him being our senator at this moment in my mind there is no difference between you or him so I will not be voting for either one of you. As for the rest of these republican scumbags to hell with them all I would much rather vote satan himself and his legion of evil minions into office the vote for you people. I'm betting I would have more of my individual civil liberties with him in charge.
The Ironic thing about this legislation is it will probably result in MORE rocs being turned loose than before. Cry me a river when they start popping up. The other irony is it will now officially be easier to get a hot permit than it will be to keep a burmese python or a nile monitor. How stupid is that? It will be interesting to see how that changes the landscape.

No... only the green anaconda, along with the other four pythons i listed. Some are getting the federal and state stuff confused.
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USARK

Is there not some way to derail this "railroad"...to slow it down and give it a bit more thought?

Can't the Legislature be made to reconsider, what with the big freeze and the current ROC rules already in place? Give them a chance to work?

What groups are behind this initiative? AR, Save the Everglades, The Nature Conspiracy?

What about reasonable, rational letters to House members?

As goes Florida, so goes the rest of the country.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It's simple folks! They don't give a frogs fat ass about us. I've emailed Senator Sobel five different times over the past four months and guess what? Nothing! And I live in her district! This shows the type of arrogance these people have and will stop at nothing until they get what they want.

It's political. If they thought the majority of the people were against the ban, they'd go that way.

Doesn't USARK have a lobbyist that would have been informed of this proposal prior to vote?

Yes, but that guy is in Washington and deals with the federal legislature. This had nothing to do with Washington; it was the Florida state senate.

I saw Sobel in action before. She can be a nasty [bleep].

I would not try to sway the sponsors/authors. Obviously they have too great a stake in passing the ban legislation.
I would try to sway the other members that vote. They may not have a strong opinion one way or the other.
I would make the case allowing for the status quo. And I would be sure to ask them why they feel a ban is a good idea, if they do. They should be specific, too. Standard nonsense replies should initiate another query from you as to why they think the ban is such a good idea.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

LOL...my comment was censored.

Too late. I guess its a done deal now. Except for the Governor.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

i'm pretty sure it still has to pass the house, be reconciled between the two, then be signed by the governor. at least that's what the user "USARK" (andrew wyatt?) said in a previous reply...

>>i'm pretty sure it still has to pass the house, be reconciled between the two, then be signed by the governor. at least that's what the user "USARK" (andrew wyatt?) said in a previous reply...

Looks like it passed the House today:

www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Bills/billsdetail.aspx?BillId=42380&SessionId=64

Vote History:
Chamber Date Yeas Nays
Senate 04/23/2010 10:28 AM 35 0
House 04/28/2010 09:55 AM 116 0

suck

We do not have lobbyists in Florida. We dont have the money. We have all of our money tied up in Challenging the Rule Change. Not that it would have mattered if we did. Did you notice the vote count on both House and Senate? Senate= 35-0 House= 116-0. there has been no notice on these two bills either at the committee level or on the floor. This is something that the Governor wants and is being supported unnanimously by Dems and Rep in both houses. It is a RR job. usark was not in attendance. We found out too late... but like i said, it would not have made any difference if we were there. Everything had already been decided.

But lets be clear on what passed...here is a cut and paste of an email i just sent to an inquiry by EricWI:

The politicians and committee staff have not given more than 24 hours notice on any of the hearings and floor votes. This has been a RR job from the beginning. With the success we have had at the federal level more political pressure is coming down on Florida to deal with what is being characterized more and more as a “Florida” problem. This is a joint effort by the governor and both Houses of FL legislature; as well as both democrats and republicans. Unfortunately we are not omnipotent. I fear there is nothing more that can be done. Commercial interests will continue to be able to exhibit, buy, sell, trade and breed. Animals can be transferred to other commercially licensed entities within FL, or sold out of Florida. Pet ownership of ROC w/i FL will be limited to current permit holders. No new permits will be issued for ROC pet ownership. Pet ROC will not be replaced at death. That is the best we could do. Commercial survived. Pet ownership did not.
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USARK

So then where's the line between a keeper and a breeder, then?

A $50 Commercial License... i believe it is called an ESC license.
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USARK

I wonder what it takes to qualify for the license... Depending on the requirements, this ban may be easily worked around, no? I mean, if all it takes to be considered a commerial breeder is having litters/clutches on the ground and for sale, might this 'ban' really only result in more breeding? What kinds of restrictions will be placed on those licensed breeders?

>>I wonder what it takes to qualify for the license... Depending on the requirements, this ban may be easily worked around, no? I mean, if all it takes to be considered a commerial breeder is having litters/clutches on the ground and for sale, might this 'ban' really only result in more breeding? What kinds of restrictions will be placed on those licensed breeders?

I am a commercial interest in FL, but not a big breeder. I needed to prove my educational status to obtain my alligator permit in FL a few years back. They want a business name, FL incorporation, proof of business such as a website and/or store front, and wildlife officers inspected my set-up.

Later on today I thought about this post again. Actually, my commercial license is just a Class III permit for which I pay $50 and list inventory. Any permit holder is open for inspection at any time. The criteria for my commercial permit is MUCH lighter than my ROC. That's an interesting move.

Since anyone who bred and sold Burms in FL was really supposed to have a Class III permit anyway, this really didn't accomplish much except drive private ownership underground. There was a free pet ownership permit for reptiles before the ROC, but I don't think anyone ever got one.

Well isnt this super?
Does anyone else think that enforcing a ban is going to be impossible? The only thing any person that wants a ROC has to do is drive to another state, buy there and smuggle back into the state. It wouldn't be hard to do.
Reminds me of a old gun control saying. "If snakes are to be outlawed, only outlaws will have snakes" LOL
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1.0 Albino American alligator, "Smoke"
1.1 American alligator,"Al Bite Ya & Molly"
1.1 Purple Albino Reticulated Pythons, "Gumbo & Abita"
0.1 Eastern Gaboon Viper, "Gabbie" Recently passed away at 24 years old
Help me find this snake!

This only sets precedent for the national agenda. You know how they just love to say...Well, they're doing this in...so it must be a good idea. We better do the same.
As goes Florida, so goes the other states. They're all going to say...If Florida won't allow them, we don't want Florida sending their unwanted injurious animals to our state.
The domino theory in motion. Chicken Little move over! Welcome to the Dark Ages.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

The reality is, it won't change much in Florida. There were only a little over 100 ROC permitted individuals in the state (all grandfathered). The rest either have commercial permits and are exempt, or they were illegally held w/o permit. If you have or get the $50 commercial permit you can exhibit, buy, sell, trade or breed. Commerce between licensed commercial guy or commerce out of the state is permitted. The new legislation is more symbolic than anything else. It will change very little. Because we have been so successful at the federal level it has become more clear that the Burm issue is truly a Florida issue. That fact has put more pressure on the state to take care of its own problems. look at the situation... no notice of hearings or floor votes. Unanimous votes across the board, both dems and reps in both houses of the legislature. Senate 35-0. House 116-0. Its Kabuki theater. Anyone who wants to seriously work with ROC's can still do so. The casual pet owner who wants a ROC will not be able to anymore... but they weren't already anyway cuz they didn't want to pay for the $100 ROC permit and have their animal micro-chipped. That is just not something a casual pet owner has been willing to do for the last 2 years in FL. Sooooo.... the reality is... nothing much will change in FL as the result of this new law. It's mostly political grandstanding. I don't like the whole thing... but it is what it is.
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USARK

"They're all going to say...If Florida won't allow them, we don't want Florida sending their unwanted injurious animals to our state."

This just gives them cover for their Lacy play. Speaking of snakes...these people aren't nice and they don't play fair.

Let the bulldozers roll...pour the asphalt and concrete, we've got a patsy.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Lets be realistic most reptile keepers aren't political.
Do not email politicians,do not give a cent to orgs that fight reptile bans and are at best their own worse enemies as far as never getting involved..

You nailed it

Andrew is right IT WAS A RAIL ROAD BILL TO BEGIN WITH. We have to vote ALL these people out of office come election time. It wasn't that we were apathetic and didn't fight it. I got only a 24 hour notice on a meeting in Tallahasee some 500 miles north of me. THIS WAS A BACK ROOM DONE DEAL FROM THE BEGINNING. As voters we should NOT forget these people who did this...It's a shame that my grandchildren have now lost some more of the rights I enjoyed as a child....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

There is no question about it being railroaded through. There is a section that says the state can ad to the list as they see fit. You can bet they will be adding more to the list. I live in Florida, and it just gets worse here all the time.

By the face of it, it was a done deal way before any stakeholders heard about it.
Walks like a duck...quacks like a duck...
You can call me skeptical, or even paranoid, but I honestly believe they have just laid the keystone for their bigger arguement. There is nothing transparent about this stuff. I hope they all choke on all that back room cigar smoke.
By their actions to date and by their very warped view of the facts, I think I'm justified in assuming the worst.
Hope I'm wrong. I'd rather be called anything, but right on this one.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Weeks before the election, I hope all the Florida herpers will keep posting on every possible forum with the names of the herp-banning jackasses to VOTE OUT. This should be as strong as all the USARK efforts.

Don't forget.

Bill

In addition to the roc be florida lawmakers also decided to outlaw bong shops and felt that a ban on texting while driving was an infringement on people's liberties and tabled it.
That's right folks our individual right to chose whether or not we want to keep a large snake is out the window. If you want to buy a bong in florida you can no longer go to a store the employs people and collects and pays sales taxes to the state. Now you have to buy your bong on e-bay and have it sent to your house a transaction that will give them nothing in sales taxes.
However if you decide to put other people at risk by not watching where the hell you are going because your nose is buried in an I-phone that's okay.
There are many more issues going on in this state right now in addition to the snake ban that have a lot of people ticked off. I am seeing more and more bumper stickers around these days that say things like "time to clean house" and "vote them all out" in fact I just saw one today I honked at the guy and gave him the thumbs up.
Both parties are guilty of this crap there is really not any difference between the 2 parties. They are just 2 different sides of the same worthless coin.
I will not be voting for any incumbents in the election this nov. and from this day forward I will vote for neither of the 2 parties for any election. I was most of the way there anyway but now if they don't have libertarian or teaparty or non-party affiliate or something else beside their name instead of rep or dem I am not voting for them. If they are running un-opposed I'm writing Adolf Hitler in the write-in blank. I'm pretty sure we would have had more rights under his rule anyway.

http://myfwc.com/NEWSROOM/10/statewide/News_10_X_ROC2.htm

"Two representatives from the reptile industry and The Nature Conservancy addressed the Commission and gave their approval to the draft rules. The Humane Society of the United States also supported the rules but urged the Commission to go further by banning all breeding and sale of the reptiles for export."

Who were the "two representatives from the reptile industry"????

Names, please.

Bill

What I think this is, is incorrect news. I'm going to guess that a subject in one meeting may have gotten approval and later the proponents released erroneous hearsay by combining two separate issues into one statement released to the press.
In other words, those people may have been in agreement in principle on one set of issues early on, but nowhere in sight when the subject was further modified to suit the proponents' goals.
This is one of their favorite tactics. They love to play the selective memory, broad based assumptions card; and to Hell with all the small relevant details. Just one more little lie in the compilation to bolster the big lie.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I would ask the "news organization" that reported those "facts" as news, to supply the source and the text of the press release they are quoting. Just keep digging and get a retraction. We must compile documented evidence refuting every one of these false claims. It will be a long and arduous task to reverse the damage that has already been done.
What about a class action suit against HSUS and those news organizations that peddle their lies? They have absolutely NO substantiation to their claims that Python owners are intentionally releasing their pythons into the Everglades, and yet the lie still lives on. This is clearly harmful to the industry. Premeditated and malicious, libelous and slanderous lies with the intent of doing the industry financial harm, and it has.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

We've got to get tough and get some lawyers on this. File some lawsuits. Go to court. That's expensive, I know, but these guys we're fighting are all lawyers themselves (lawyers, judges, legislators, regulators...all legal positions). We've got to speak a language they understand. We've got to fight the battle with the weapons they've chosen. Right now we're behaving like the guilty suspect, plea-bargaining for a lesser sentence in the Judge's chambers.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>We've got to get tough and get some lawyers on this. File some lawsuits. Go to court. That's expensive, I know, but these guys we're fighting are all lawyers themselves (lawyers, judges, legislators, regulators...all legal positions). We've got to speak a language they understand. We've got to fight the battle with the weapons they've chosen. Right now we're behaving like the guilty suspect, plea-bargaining for a lesser sentence in the Judge's chambers.
>>jsc

Not sure anything will work at this point, but I agree with you that legal action is the only possible hope. I like your analogy to the plea bargaining, but it's even worse, since the "judge" is not impartial in our case. We're like the chickens trying to negotiate and plea bargain with the foxes.

I'm with John... this is just bad reporting. There is no one in the Florida reptile community that is in agreement with HSUS and TNC on anything. Let's not turn on one another here. United we Stand... Divided we Fall. There is enough misinformation and negativity out there already. We don't need to perpetuate it.
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USARK

>>I'm with John... this is just bad reporting. There is no one in the Florida reptile community that is in agreement with HSUS and TNC on anything. Let's not turn on one another here. United we Stand... Divided we Fall. There is enough misinformation and negativity out there already. We don't need to perpetuate it.
>>-----
>>USARK
>>
>>

The link I posted was to the FWC website. I am just trying to
present facts, nothing to do with negativity.

FACT: The FWC website ( http://myfwc.com/NEWSROOM/10/statewide/News_10_X_ROC2.htm ) states "Two representatives from the reptile industry and The Nature Conservancy addressed the Commission and gave their approval to the draft rules. The Humane Society of the United States also supported the rules but urged the Commission to go further by banning all breeding and sale of the reptiles for export."

Is the FWC doing the bad reporting? If so, how can it be such a good ally? Why didn't they mention the names of the industry representatives in the press release? This stuff should be fully transparent, this is not a military endeavor or a police investigation where information needs to be withheld. The citizens of Florida should demand transparency. Even if nothing funky is going on, without transparency it looks suspicious.

FACT: I called the FWC this morning. One of the "two representatives of the pet industry" was Bill Brant. The FWC
rep could not remember the other one, but I will find out. And hopefully the meeting minutes will be released, so we all know
what was said.

Thanks,
Ed

Thank you, sir. PLEASE keep going with your investigation.

Bill

Isn't Bill Brant the owner of The Gourmet Rodent, that supplies frozen rodents to Petco?

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks.

B.

That would make sense, since Petco has no interest in selling any pythons larger than a Ball Python. Their business model does not allow for employees qualified to that level of expertise or sophistication.
I understand Bill Brandt is on the Board of Directors at PIJAC. If Bill Brandt is on the Board of Directors for PIJAC, that would make sense too. Since the membership fees for PIJAC are based on sales numbers. That would put Petco at the top of the list of PIJAC contributors. It follows that the top contributors would get the most representation from PIJAC.
Just dumbing it down...the slow corporate take-over of Herpetoculture continues.
jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

anyone thought about calling him up and asking HIM about it? from what i've heard, he is absolutely on our side. an explanation from HIM has to be required before people hang him out to dry.

the only things i've seen about this whole thing so far are rumors and assumptions. we REALLY have no idea what happened at those meetings until someone talks about it who was THERE. at this point, we really have NO IDEA what the circumstances were around this vote - and we REALLY don't even know how it's going to affect the people down there. we can speculate all we want, but for all we know, it will be as simple as getting a commercial license, and voila! problem circumvented. and how many people follow the CURRENT ROC requirements? very few, i'd venture... so what's gonna change, really?

other than the vote results, and that 2 people from the reptile industry were there, everything else is pure speculation. so all i'm saying is, before everyone forms a lynching mob (and i DO believe that is where all this will lead if people aren't careful) and needlessly destroys a man's name, people better have ALL the facts, and it ABSOLUTELY better be justified.

I'm guessing the two who were there were Bill Brandt and Eugene Bessette. Both have been close friends of mine for well over 25 years and I can't believe they would do anything to hurt this Industry. I will contact both and get their take on this whole thing but lets NOT hang anyone until we know in fact their guilty of something. I WILL GO ON RECORD AS STATING I AM OPPOSED TO ANYONE WHO WOULD SEEK TO OPPRESS OTHERS TO INSURE THEIR OWN FINANCIAL SUCCESS. I BELIEVE THAT COMPETITION IS HEALTHY FOR THE INDUSTRY AND IS THE AMERICAN WAY OF DOING THINGS. IF THERE ARE THOSE WHO SEEK TO ELIMINATE COMPETITION IN ANY OTHER WAY THAN BY OUT COMPETING THE COMPETITION I WILL VIGOROUSLY OPPOSE THEM WITH ALL MY HEART AND SOUL. As I understand all the law does is prevent anyone from having an ROC animal as a personal pet. New permits will NOT be issued on any person asking for an ROC permit for one to be kept as a pet. A person who wants to commercially breed and sell will not be affected and will be issued the ROC permit even if they currently are not grandfathered in. Line 8 and the addition of new species is cause for concern as this could be done without due process. There are other things happening or possibly happening here that are of more concern. One is the regulation of herps shipped into Florida that has been discussed and the other is a suggestion that folks that breed and sell out of their home if not zoned agriculture be prohibited from doing so. I do NOT KNOW at present where these thoughts and ideas generated from but if I find out I will make it public and vigorously oppose it. None of these things would adversely affect me but it would destroy many part time small breeders and this I'LL FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR THEIR RIGHT TO CONTINUE ENJOYING AND BREEDING THEIR HERPS. I compete with these same hobbiest-breeders but I am proud to do so and it's their right to continue to pursue happiness as they see fit. I WILL STAND TALL [everybody knows I'm really short..lol] AGAINST ANY AND ALL WHO ATTEMPT TO THROW THE SMALL TIME BREEDER UNDER THE BUS. Thanks and sorry for the rant...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

There are other things happening or possibly happening here that are of more concern. One is the regulation of herps shipped into Florida that has been discussed and the other is a suggestion that folks that breed and sell out of their home if not zoned agriculture be prohibited from doing so.

I have heard the same thing that you mentioned above, Tom. I believe that there are a couple or a few who are going to use their connections (whatever they may be) to throw the small breeder under the bus. America was built on the Free Enterprise System and it's a shame that people who are connected with the powers to be, want to eliminate the competition by unfair advantages. I believe we are at the new beginning of the horrible challanges that the reptile community is going to have to face. If you have not joined USARK, you need to do it now.

Brant sided with Rep. Ralph Poppell when this all began, when things were really scary, back when this all started, ...............this came from Poppell himself.My view on talking is..............

Why bother talking, your only going to get the sweet sounding politically correct smooth over. Everyone likes to hedge their bets. If a guy is going to fly straight, it will show in the end. Period.

I don't think down playing this new legislation making it seem insignificant is very smart, this issue should be viewed as a marker for how little protection private owners have, and why they really need to be more vocal. A year ago Florida had a sound permitting system that everyone thought was great,A lot of people thought this system should be used as a guideline for how other states should do it. It was designed to allow those who proved themselves capable to enjoy private ownership in a safe and responsible manor..........now before it even had a chance its been taken away. look out...........

Ernie Eison
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

Nice article on Bill Brant in the new Reptiles magazine.

I stopped reading Reptiles mag, years ago, Whats the use , its not much more then a infomercial rag. I cant believe it still exist.

ERNIE EISON
WESTWOOD ACRES REPTILE FARM INC.

"I don't think down playing this new legislation making it seem insignificant is very smart, this issue should be viewed as a marker for how little protection private owners have"

I completely agree. I don't understand why some seem to be sugar coating a ban on pet ownership. I'm just a little guy who likes to own (not breed) snakes for now. Aside from the fact that the ban is patently stupid on its face and the gov't is creating an oppressive law that inhibit peoples' pursuit of happiness, if I lived in Florida, I'd feel like I was getting thrown under the bus by breeders. I mean let's face it, we all know what caused the Everglades burm population, and it wasn't pet owners. (That's not a knock on breeders/dealers, just pointing out the unfairness of the law.) So to allow breeders to continue business but not allow people to own them as pets is pure bs, based on nothing but politics and back room negotiations. And where is the call for a last minute fax/mail/email bomb to the governor to overturn this idiotic law?

Governor Charlie Crist is the biggest proponent of this bill. He would not reply to requests from USARK from late '09. Anyone who paid attention to the development of this initiative from its beginnings last year, all the press releases and the swift movement through the legislative process knows that Gov Crist has pushed for this from day one. Governor Crist didn't like Bill Nelson getting all the press on this. He wants to be Senator. He passed his law while Nelson failed. Crist is fully invested in this bill. He will not veto what he has worked for months to accomplish.
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USARK

Well then, Governor Crist zigged when he should have zagged. How's Independent Candidate Crist going to get all those Independent voters, when most Herpers are true independents, sick of both Republicans and Democrats?
Somebody should send an urgent communication to Governor Crist informing him it's not too late to change his mind, if he is truly interested in that Senate seat. The ball is in his court.
I AM serious here.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

We have lines of communication with his office.... unfortunately Crist does not care about the Herper vote. I would encourage everyone to keep this in mind at election time. The two alternatives are Democrat Kendrick Meek (sponsor HR2811) and Republican Marco Rubio. I can't say who to vote for w/o violating our tax exempt status... but I think the choice is clear!
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USARK

Although as usual we don't have any REAL choices Rubio is the better choice given the info we have. Charles Christ is BY FAR THE WORST with Meeks running nose to nose. Christ is our enemy and should NOT receive a single herpers vote....Christ seems to have an absolute hatred for herps and can NOT be swayed in our favor....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I guess I've just hung out with Mike Carlton too much over the years. His logic has definitely rubbed off on me. I have always had libertarian leanings and after the last few years I have just become totally fed up with republicans. There is no difference between them and democrats they are two sides of the same rotten corporate coin. In spite of what republicans may try and claim BOTH parties expand government and BOTH parties spend tax money. For God's sake Bush spent tax money like a drunken sailor.
The majority in both the fl house and senate are republicans. They voted UNANIMOUSLY to take away our right to own private property. That doesn't sound like a group of people I want to vote for. Their little abortion law and the ban on bongs didn't help their case with me either I would have said to hell with them for those laws as well and for the record I never smoked much pot in my younger years and I have not even touched it in over 15 years but I really HATE prohibition it doesn't work and all that law does is end up putting more floridians out of work and end up giving the business they had to people in other states (e-bay). Needless to say I won't be voting for rubio or the other 2 clowns. I'm sure one of them will be our senator, I am sure whichever one is our senator will not help us and will only hurt the cause of liberty, I am sure that whichever one gets in office will not change things. The only thing I am sure of is I will not rubber stamp the whole fiasco by voting for any of them. The lesser of 2 (or 3) evils is still evil.

Is there a libaterian running? If so I would vote for that candidate but of the 3 I'm aware of Rubio is the best of 3 EVIL'S...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

all 3 of them are freedom haters.

The system is broken. The time is here for true reform. The hub of the wheel of our national agenda, is hypocrisy.

Take the Alien invasion for instance...we're not ALLOWING them to take over. We're not GIVING America away. We're PAYING them to take America.

The reality is all so convoluted and so far distant from the rules, regulations, and laws we live under. It is simply a perversion of justice.

We have become a Third World Banana Republic. Everything here is done by a wink and a nod. It's all flea market garage/yard sale economic mentality.

There is absolutely no way YOU can compete and survive by following all the rules. You just have to do the best you can and take your chances. The newly arrived competition gets so many free passes. So, if YOU do get caught for not following the "rules", it's just a random gotcha from The Man. Not to be taken personally, The Man has to demonstrate to the populace he's on the ball, taking care of business, on all our behalf's. Just to legitimize the Status Quo.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

It's the same thing with all this Reptile vilification. No real substance to it. Just a charade for public consumption, in order to appear as if conscientiously doing The Peoples' business.
Lawmakers have to make laws. That's their stock in trade.
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

USARK should contact him to see if he's willing to work with the herpers.

I don't really care what he has to say to usark (sorry no offense) his vote on the new legislation has said volumes to me. He can go stuff himself.

unless i am mistaken Rubio resigned his seat in the 111th district in Jan 2009. he had absolutely zero to do with this bill. i think erik fresen has his old seat.
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USARK

So,if your grandfathered in you can get a new permit each year? Hummm, isnt it a "fact" that Pythons live to be well over a hundred years old. You know like the grandfathered in Black head Pythons that folks owned before C.I.T.E.S. They seemed to live a long time in captivity. Just a thought. Can everyone in my huge family get permits before the deadline? Just a thought.Hummm. VM

If your snake dies you can always pull the micro chip and re-inject it into a similar sized burm they'll never know if you don't tell. Georgia's only next door.

Dont ask, dont tell. I like it! VM

Once the ROC permit passed that virtually destroyed most markets in Florida for all ROC herps then and there because almost no one was willing to pay $100 and jump through the hoops of obtainining the permit anyway. No more were they being sold as personal pets even last year. As more regs. are passed more potential customers are lost. Just another way of shutting all herp keeping down....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

What you have said makes my case as to the true motives of those behind this legislation...

As Tom has said, they have already killed the Florida "Pet" trade with the ROC statutes already in place. Why would they want this then? It seems unnecessary, other than to lay the foundation for a national ban through lacy regs.

jsc

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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

I think this is the beginning of what could be potentially the end. This is the foundation of more rules and regulations. On the Fl 313 bill that was just passed, read line # 8. It says they can ad to the list any time they want. That line in itself speaks volumes as far as I'm concerned. It opens the door for every single reptile species that are non native. This is bad and I think the worst is yet to come. These people have a plan and they are doing it one step at a time. I'm about to move out of this country. We are losing all of our rights one after the other.