Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got a neonate retic 1 yr. ago that had been doing fine. About three months ago it had 2 rats then went into shed. It then did not eat for an entire shed cycle and has become gradually and unusually unresponsive and rather flaccid. It does become more responsive at times and with handling, but the muscle tone is rather poor. It is now getting rather thin as well. The breathing, tongue flicking and last bowl movements were normal. My husbandry is not an issue as I have several retics that are doing fantastic.

I am curious if anyone has experienced similar findings?

Could I get a differential diagnosis based on these signs?

Any insight is GREAT!
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steve

Steve,
Has there been any type of chemical or mite treatment exposure in the last few months?

Kelly

Good question Kelly. This snake was treated with NIX cream in a gallon of water shortly prior to onset of problems about 3 months ago. the snake and enclosure were sprayed down and allowed to dry before replaced in tank with water being removed for 36 hrs. The treatment was repeated after 5 days.

I am glad you picked up on that. I didn't add it in the 1st listing as I was looking for insight into symptoms without giving an obvious target---you obviously have insight.

I have been unable to find information as to what to expect in the progression of a possible toxicity. Most of what I read on neurotoxicity describes abnormal movements and a starry gaze and are also described as acute symptoms. I did read your post on nephrotoxicity which seems closer to what I am experiencing. Refresher of sings-->lethargy, anorexia, muscle weakness and decreased responsiveness; drinking, breathing and tongue flicking are normal.

You must have something in mind, and I would be very happy to read what that is.

You helped me get an anaconda feeding last year, he is doing great.

I appreciate you input, and look forward to a reply.

Thank you!
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steve

Thanks Steve,

As you know, the active ingredient in NIX is the neurotoxin permethrin. While it is in a different chemical class than dichlorvos, this is also a neurotoxin and shows similar symptoms of excess exposure. I have seen cases of dichlorvos toxicity in several pythons and the main symptoms are lethargy, slow response to stimuli, and the flat, lack of muscle tone appearance of the body shape in general. I have never noticed, or heard reported, abnormal movements or star gazing in these pythons. I have seen very little in the literature on this and most of what I know comes from cases I have seen personally. All of the pythons affected were still feeding however, and that probably has to do with the extent of the exposure, although that is just a guess on my part. These snakes seemed to improve somewhat over time and did survive, but still seemed somewhat lethargic.

Unfortunately, I believe you may just need to wait it out and see if it improves over time as I am not aware of any effective treatments available for this condition. If you can locate a really experienced reptile vet, a conversation may provide more information and a possible treatment option. Not sure what to do about the anorexia, but I guess assist feeding may be an option although I am not a big proponent in most cases. However, this case may be an exception and it could help to gain some improvement if she doesn’t begin to feed voluntarily. Sorry I couldn’t be of more help, but definitely let me know how she does.

Kelly

Thank you. That is the first report I have read on those symptoms in relation to permethrin. I wish there was more literature on the topic and that it was widely available. However, that is not an experiment I would care to conduct in a formal manner. I will be more careful in the future.

I will also give you feed back on this case if you are interested. You are probably the most knowledgeable person on large constrictor health to take an active role in offering public feedback. If you like, I can give you feedback on her condition monthly?

If you're ever going to be in the Indianapolis area, shoot me a message, the beer and BBQ is on me, and you can stay over at my place if the occasion arrises.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,
Steven Moberly
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steve

thanks much for the invite, I will definitely let you know if I'm ever in your area. Please do keep me posted on her condition as I would really like to know how she does.

Kelly