Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think most are in agreement if you sell a 'Dodoma' you should be selling a snake that originated or its parents originated from Dodoma Valley, Tanzania.

The problem in the hobby is that 'Dodomas' also tend to have a significantly reduced pattern along the body and the faces.

This pattern is becoming more desirable not only in our normal colored KSBs but also in our Anerys.

I've seen Jeff Holloway's and Scott Miller's 'reduced patterned' anery's. They are amazing (maybe one or both of you guys could post some pictures?).

The problem in the pet trade is there is not a set name for this significantly reduced patterned trait.

I have seen the use of Super Flame at times to describe KSBs that exhibit this desired trait but I have also seen super flame used to describe KSBs that do not.

We all know we will pay much more for a 'significantly reduced patterned' KSB. They are more rare and more desirable.

But, we do not have a uniform name for this trait. A Dodoma is technically and confusingly incorrect (because it is a locality).

Most of us on this forum are working to produce these reduced patterned KSBs but I think we should also work to name this trait and all work together to propugate a name for it.

Thoughts, ideas, etc.

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
2.1 Rufescens
1.6 Albinos
1.5 Dodoma
1.0 Nuclear Meltdown
1.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
2.7.10 Anery
0.2 Snow
2.2 Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe Het Anery
6.7 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
1.3 High Orange Tiger
1.3 High Orange
1.1 Snow Paradoxes
0.1 Albino Paradoxes

Western Hognose
2.0 Western Hog
2.0 Western Hog Het Albino
1.0 Green Phase
1.0 Red Phase

2.1 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
1.3 Rhode Island Reds
0.3 Barred Rocks
0.2 Range Hens
0.1 Favorite Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

WWW.SANDBOAMORPHS.COM

I think a lot of the confusion is because people either dont understand what is meant by Dodoma or just use it as a marketing scheme. Here are my rules of thumb:

I will always call Dodoma locality sands just that; priority goes to the first name giver (in the case the Barkers) so nothing else gets that name and they went with Dodoma Flame.

I also don't like giving names to things that dont have a simple genetic basis. It can be misleading since we have learned to associate a morph name with being able to reliably reproduce it according to the probabilities you get from a Punnett square (even if that assumption is not at the top of your mind). So, morph names are reserved for dominant, recessive, co-dom and incompelte dom traits only.

The sole exception to the rule above is with line-bred traits (and locality). They might not be simple recessive, but when bred together (and thats the important caveat) you have a reasonable expectation of reproducing the trait. That even goes for animals from the line that are not stellar examples of it. When bred together somewhat ordinary looking line-bred animals can still produce some remarkable examples of the line-bred trait. Whatever that may be.

So, with those rules in my head I call the reduced pattern animals just reduced pattern animals. Until they are proven to be simple genetic and can get a cool name (which we will all associate with it being simple genetic) or line-bred to such a point that we can reliably produce more of them.

It can also be helpful to give the provenance of the line, so Stockwell-line nuclears. Everyone knows what that means.

Those are what I like to do anyway
Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

You're killing me....lol....

I was unaware the Barker's coined it Dodoma Flame. Thus the 'flame' and 'super flame'.

I don't want to get into the more extreme color and longevity of color retention part but I think I understand why some breeders call a cross that exhibits that trait between a dodoma flame and something else, simply a 'flame'.

That being said I think it is only logical if the snake exhibits extreme color and the reduced pattern characteristic typically found with the Dodoma Flame but is not a 'Dodoma Flame' than 'Super Flame' seems appropriate.

Thanks for your help, Vin!

Dodoma Male - Turner Line

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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
2.1 Rufescens
1.6 Albinos
1.5 Dodoma
1.0 Nuclear Meltdown
1.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
2.7.10 Anery
0.2 Snow
2.2 Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe Het Anery
6.7 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
1.3 High Orange Tiger
1.3 High Orange
1.1 Snow Paradoxes
0.1 Albino Paradoxes

Western Hognose
2.0 Western Hog
2.0 Western Hog Het Albino
1.0 Green Phase
1.0 Red Phase

2.1 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
1.3 Rhode Island Reds
0.3 Barred Rocks
0.2 Range Hens
0.1 Favorite Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

WWW.SANDBOAMORPHS.COM

LOL, I think they only coined Dodoma Flame. Then some shortened it to flame, and others went with super flame. I dont like either, calling them flame and super can imply they are co-dom morphs. With a het being the flame and the homoz the "super"

Ugh, its a mess.

Nice Dodoma though!
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

You're still killing me....lol.

I personally, am not partial to any name.

I just want a name for future pet trade purposes...

Was hoping more folks would weight in.....less of the science type and more of the commercial type....lol!!!!!
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
2.1 Rufescens
1.6 Albinos
1.5 Dodoma
1.0 Nuclear Meltdown
1.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
2.7.10 Anery
0.2 Snow
2.2 Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe Het Anery
6.7 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
1.3 High Orange Tiger
1.3 High Orange
1.1 Snow Paradoxes
0.1 Albino Paradoxes

Western Hognose
2.0 Western Hog
2.0 Western Hog Het Albino
1.0 Green Phase
1.0 Red Phase

2.1 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
1.3 Rhode Island Reds
0.3 Barred Rocks
0.2 Range Hens
0.1 Favorite Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

WWW.SANDBOAMORPHS.COM

Mark, I dont care much for the name "Flame".It's just like you said ,people put it on any snake that has a reduced pattern or nice bright orange color. While I do use the Dodomas to improve my reduced pattern line, the best one that I have ever produced was only (theoretically)25% Dodoma.To me ,the best thing about the Dodoma is there ability to stay clean into adulthood. I agree with Vinny about the co-dom thing. There should not be a super form!,unless it's a co-dominant morph. Anyway, to answer your question ??? maybe we should just call them designer sand boas,give there history and grade them according to appearance.Just my two cents Jeff

Sorry did
nt mean to send that pic Jeff

How cool is that snake...that's not exactly what I was talking about when I was talking about reduced patterned snakes. That one has other stuff going on.

Now you've really confused them, Jeff....lol!!!!
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
2.1 Rufescens
1.6 Albinos
1.5 Dodoma
1.0 Nuclear Meltdown
1.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
2.7.10 Anery
0.2 Snow
2.2 Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe Het Anery
6.7 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
1.3 High Orange Tiger
1.3 High Orange
1.1 Snow Paradoxes
0.1 Albino Paradoxes

Western Hognose
2.0 Western Hog
2.0 Western Hog Het Albino
1.0 Green Phase
1.0 Red Phase

2.1 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
1.3 Rhode Island Reds
0.3 Barred Rocks
0.2 Range Hens
0.1 Favorite Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

WWW.SANDBOAMORPHS.COM

OK this is what I was trying to send , these are all from the same litter of a reduced pattern breeding. I got everything from normal to nice to screaming. WHAT a FUN litter, but Mark ! what do we call them ??? hope you enjoy the pic Jeff

Dang Jeff.... that thing is amazing! I will call you with my address... hehe.

Hope all is well.

-Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Heh heh......Holloway Hypos, of course....

Axanthic Holloway Hypos

Just kidding of course. That is a gorgeous axanthic; and what most have been striving for in their breeding efforts....a high white. Congratulations!

Beautiful Anery!!!

Beautiful!!

Thanks Jeff...you've hijacked the thread with that amazing 'XX' picture...of course, I have no idea what to call that snake.....lol!!!!

This is my point. We are increasingly producing this 'reduced pattern' snake. Which tells me that it is reproducable (I think a trait that was required for it to be named) and it means that more will be sold in the future. Regardless, it should be named and defined in my opinion.
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
2.1 Rufescens
1.6 Albinos
1.5 Dodoma
1.0 Nuclear Meltdown
1.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
2.7.10 Anery
0.2 Snow
2.2 Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe Het Anery
6.7 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
1.3 High Orange Tiger
1.3 High Orange
1.1 Snow Paradoxes
0.1 Albino Paradoxes

Western Hognose
2.0 Western Hog
2.0 Western Hog Het Albino
1.0 Green Phase
1.0 Red Phase

2.1 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
1.3 Rhode Island Reds
0.3 Barred Rocks
0.2 Range Hens
0.1 Favorite Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

WWW.SANDBOAMORPHS.COM

It is being reproduced due to everyone breeding similar looking animals together (selective pressure) to try and obtain a specific look (purpose or outcome due to manmade selective pressure); i.e. line breeding for reduction in brown pattern. They should simply be called Reduced Pattern East African Sandboas. Simply tell any potential buyer that you have been selectively breeding them for X amount of time...or just start saying they are 66% hets for reduced pattern and Dodoma. Simple is the key word....Green Tree Python = a green colored python found in trees. K.I.S.S.

You have 2.1 Boston terriers. If you breed them and a produce a pup with a higher percentage of white than black coloration, what would you call it?

I agree with some others. If its not a genetic trait, call it how you see it. And/or give a simple explanation of how it came about.
Mark

This is the reason you have flames, super flames, etc. The 'purists' don't want it named and the 'breeders' need a name to help in identification for sale.

While most of us collect and breed KSBs for enjoyment, we also, sell them to help offset the cost of the hobby. You can't keep them all and the same folks against 'naming' the 'reduced patterned' KSBs would be screaming if someone offered them 'normal/wild type' money for it. The bottom line is, few will pay 100's more for a KSB advertised 'reduced patterned KSB' but would pay it for a 'Dodoma KSB'. The two snakes could look identical in every way, what's in a name, a lot of money in a niche market that does not have a lot of higher end options.

Thanks for everyone's input.
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Mark Huntley
Sand Boa Morphs

Kenyan Sand Boa's
2.1 Rufescens
1.6 Albinos
1.5 Dodoma
1.0 Nuclear Meltdown
1.1 Flame
2.5.8 Normal (orange)
2.7.10 Anery
0.2 Snow
2.2 Yellow Snow
0.1 Splash Albino
1.0 Splash Anery
1.0 Orange Stripe Het Anery
6.7 High Orange Stripe
1.0 Yellow Stripe
1.3 High Orange Tiger
1.3 High Orange
1.1 Snow Paradoxes
0.1 Albino Paradoxes

Western Hognose
2.0 Western Hog
2.0 Western Hog Het Albino
1.0 Green Phase
1.0 Red Phase

2.1 Boston Terriers
0.2 Sooners
1.3 Rhode Island Reds
0.3 Barred Rocks
0.2 Range Hens
0.1 Favorite Wives
1.1 On the fence in-laws
2.1 Rug Rats

CHECK OUT MY NEW KENYAN SAND BOA BLOG
http://sandboamorphs.blogspot.com/

WWW.SANDBOAMORPHS.COM

I'm sure there is a ball python equivelent term that you could use since you are adamantly not going to simply call them reduced pattern....even though you keep referring to them as such, and everyone in this thread understands the "look" you are speaking of.

For all your marketing needs...

www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/

You know , alot of the names that we are very accustom today were names that seemed bad names when first tagged to a new morph.But now we know what people are talking about when they mention "snow" or "nuck" or "albino" .If they were leusistic then snow whould be a good name and albino ? would'nt amel be a better name, and nuck ??? . Selective breeding is breeding "diferent" animals for a particular "genitic" trait.What the h--- is selictive pressure? Once we get to the point of producing these morphs with some degree of predictability,then we will have no choice but to name it accoringly.We just have to be more careful about how we do it .Example dodoma , flame whats the difference? This thing will work it's self out when the time comes.for now 'reduced pattern' works for me ,but I would have to see the parents before I would buy any reduced patterns myself.

What the h--- is selictive pressure?

What the heck is a nuck?

nuck , nuclear !

You get 2 very different definitions and pronunciations if you google "nuck" vs. "nuke".

ok, your right 'nuke' my bad

It is interesting that you breed two of the species that have the most poorly defined "morphs" - nasicus and colubrinus.

I think the name should fulfill two criteria:

1. It should be in some way descriptive of the animals appearance. Personally I don't think "flame" tells you anything about the animal. Flame is just a marketing gimmick that the barkers came up with to sell more snakes. I think the name nuclear is even more ridiculous.
How about "high orange" for a descriptive name? Or "low blotch count"? That tells me what I'm buying.

2. The morph should be diagnosable, i.e. you should be able to look at an animal and be 100% sure it is that morph. Amelanism is a good example of a diagnosable morph. The problem is there is nothing to distinguish how "reduced" the pattern has to be to qualify for the name (or how "high" the orange or "low" the blotch count). How many times do we see someone post a snake and ask "Is this xxxx morph?" The reason is that no one can define the boundaries and a morph name means more $$$.

Western Hogs are a classic example of this gone wrong, IMHO. Just how "red" does a hog have to be to be "red phase"? And how green to be "green phase".

I think coming up with a new morph name every time the offspring don't look like one or either parent is the problem, not the solution.

Is this animal high orange? Flame? Dodoma? Nuclear? whatever?

It wasn't specially bred or anything. I simply went through the bins at Crutchfield's shop in Florida and picked out the nicest (least blotched/most orange) of hundreds of baby KSBs they had. And this was before the Dodoma line was imported into the US.

And just for reference, here's a typical wild caught Tanzanian snake from back in the day -

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

I agree wholeheartedly. I often think that breeders who invest so much into breeding and gain so much knowledge in producing these morphs would refrain from the pretty marketing names. Perhaps it works on those just entering the hobby. For the rest of us, it gets annoying when I can't tell a bit of difference between the animals having very different morph names.
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Mark

Chis, your average looking import would be called a stripe morph by many. lol
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Steve Perry
North Idaho.

One of her first litter was almost completely dark chocolate brown with only a narrow stripe of orange down her back. She was so ugly, when I sold all the others no one would buy her (and captive born Kenyans were hard to find back then). So I ended up keeping her out of pity.

Now she would almost certainly be a morph!
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas