Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is this a death sentence for snake or ? Tests are being done now but vet suspects the worse.

Thanks,

Mike

Generally, yes. Mid-body swelling? Part of a larger collection?
Usually the risks outweigh the benefits of attempting treatment, but if this is a single pet, and you have funds for somewhat experimental treatments, then it might be worth a shot treating. If the snake is already gravely ill, then it might not be the best candidate for such.

Good luck,
Ian

Updated info:

Just got the results in from vet on feces and upchuck samples.
It's not crypto or bacterial. The feces smell rancid. Feed small prey, meaning pinks, keep hydrated, till he decides the next step. Really would like to get this blonde suboc on the right track

Mike

Well, that's a good thing for the time being. Was this a fecal test for crypto? If so, a negative lab test isn't gurantee that the animal is negative, just that a positive was not found. Still, this warrants more time and effort into treating the animal.

Keep the animal in quarantine until this is sorted out. Is the vet considering further diagnostics? What are the symptoms other than foul smelling diarrhea?

Ian

Fecal test was for anything and nothing showed up; ditto for the upchuck. Only symptoms are smelly fecals and refusing anything larger than a big fuzzy. This was not the case in 8/09 when she arrived. Symptoms started about 3 months later.

She weighed 315 grams upon arrival and now down to 235.

Mike

Ian is absolutely correct, if they just ran a standard fecal exam, the oocysts of the crypto organism will never show up. They are extremely small (just a few microns) and are virtually transparent, and almost impossible for the untrained eye to see even under high power microscopy. We always used an acid-fast carbol fuchsin stain that makes the oocysts a bright pink-red and then they show up very well. After a lot of time on the scope, I got to the point that I could positively identify them unstained, but that was at 1,000 power and even then it was not easy. Staining is really a must to be certain. So the big question would be did they specifically test for crypto.

The diarrhea and regurgitation are the most common symptoms along with the mid-body swelling caused by the damage to the stomach wall. In heavier body snakes the swelling usually is not visible. In a small, thin suboc like you have, you should be able to at least feel a slight swelling if you check for it as it crawls through your fingers. Quarantine is highly critical as crypto is probably the most easily transmitted of all snake parasites. Always wear disposable gloves when handling the snake or anything that has come into contact with it if crypto is suspected. And always complete any maintenance with it last, after you have completed any work with the rest of your collection. Always wash hands and any equipment used with Betadine solution.

If crypto is ruled out, I would sure guess this was bacterial. You said they checked for bacteria, and so are you saying they actually plated and isolated for different bacterial species? I would be curious as to how in-depth they attempted to isolate possible causative bacterial species. It is usually pretty difficult to rule out this issue without fairly exhaustive testing.

Kelly

Appreciate your input, but the vet never told me how extensive the tests were. The vet used in nyc works at the bronx zoo and specializes in herps ( and exotics) along with another vet there. In the beginning a cloacal wash was done, since no fecal specimen was available. He found only inflammation, and no swelling. With the feces and upchuck sample he had more to work with. He's out of town and won't be back till next week. I keep in touch with e-mail, but will send him your comments. Maybe he'll be more definitive with me.

I haven't been to a "reptile" vet in over 12 years before this vet at the animal medical center. My batting average has been zero, meaning the snake died within 2 months. Mostly egg bound problems, which I haven't had for a long time.

Will post anything new soon.

Mike

It sounds like you have a vet that knows what they're doing, and might have a good amount of equipment to utilize. An endoscopic examination and perhaps an intestinal biopsy might not be out of the question, and likely would be quite beneficial.

Kelly, you've probably had more hands-on dealings with crypto than I. I think I've used that stain a few times on dog stool. Have you come across negative samples, only because a positive animal did not shed during that void? I wouldn't expect it on an animal that is exhibiting symptoms, but asymptomatics might only shed intermittently, correct?

Ian

Just got a message from vet. Sample was stained, but not tested for bacteria. Since all kinds of bacteria can be present, what exactly is there to isolate and identify? No lumps at all in body. Snake too small for intestinal biopsy. My bill has been up there and counting if all these tests need to be done.
Since no cure for crypto exists, things don't look promising for this girl.

Mike

P.S. Just curious how the heck does a snake get crypto in the first place? Food? Bad housekeeping? Or?

Ian,
Physical staining with an acid-fast stain is the most common method for most vets because it doesn’t require the time and serious equipment needed for the more sensitive methods such as serology testing for the antibodies developed by the host against crypto, or immunofluorescence where these antibodies are marked biochemically with fluorescent dye. I have never personally used any of these more advanced techniques, and have been limited to the physical stains. I don’t believe I have ever seen a negative sample on an animal that was showing the classic symptoms, but I believe you are correct and I have seen intermittent negatives with asymptomatic carriers. It has been said that in the early stages, the acid-fast stains may miss oocysts that would have been identified by the other more sensitive methods.

Mike,
Isolation of the various bacterial species within a sample is not simple, and to make it easier, you usually target the testing to isolate specific ones that are expected to be present and that are known pathogens. To identify other species that you are not specifically looking for is much more time consuming. In a nutshell, testing involves various steps in differential staining and the use of a series of selective growth media to further isolate the species.

I am surprised that a mid-body lump is not detectable in a snake this small and slender. However, in the very early stages, the lump is sometimes absent. To acquire crypto, this snake either had to be exposed to food or caging material contaminated with the oocysts, or exposed somehow to another snake that was a carrier. This exposure could even have been indirect in that a person could handle an infected snake at another location and transport the oocysts on their skin back to their collection and infect one of their snakes by handling it later that day. I still feel that there is a small possibility that it is bacterial. One thing you might ask the vet is if they feel a regimen of Cipro might be worth a try at this point. I have seen it work well on several snakes that were regurgitating from bacterial enteritis. Under the current circumstances I don’t believe that it is going to cause much in the way of any additional problems, but they may see it differently and I would be curious as to their take on it.

Kelly

Kelly:

If the vet is willing to give me the ciproflavacin without seeing the snake again, I'll try it. It's cheaper than more testing.
For a detailed feces test the bill starts at $175 . I already spent $500 for exams and lab tests and my patience has been reached.
When I work with my other subocs I always do them first and wash hands after each with a vinegar soap solution. Same with my other snakes. Never had problems with any of my snakes except for occasional egg laying problems or mites with my BP's (last time for both was over 12 years ago.)

Thanks again for your input guys. Appreciate it.

Mike

This suboc is improving so far. Small meals, lg. fuzzies, with no upchucks and stools looking normal again without the offensive odors. Hopefully she regains her weight for next season.

Mike