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New Cold Study Discredits USGS Constrictor Report

The Wildlife Research Center of the US Department of Agriculture has recently released a peer reviewed scientific paper in Biological Invasions that casts serious doubt on wild claims made by the US Geological Survey that Burmese pythons are poised to spread out of South Florida. --Avery, M., Engeman, R., Keacher, K., Humphrey, J., Bruce, W., Mathies, T., & Mauldin, R. (2010). Cold weather and the potential range of invasive Burmese pythons, Biological Invasions, DOI: 10.1007/s10530-010-9761-4

In an in-house “Open Report” produced by the USGS (Giant Constrictors: Biological and Management Profiles and an Establishment Risk Assessment for Nine Large Species of Pythons, Anacondas, and the Boa Constrictor) authors Gordon Rodda and Robert Reed claim that the risk is high that Burmese pythons will quickly spread across the southern third of the United States; as far north as the Chesapeake Bay, Ohio Valley and San Francisco Bay. A panel of independent scientists has criticized the report as, “not a bona-fide ‘scientific’ paper that has gone through external peer review”. Scientists further characterized the report as “not suitable as the basis for legislative or regulatory policies, as its content is not based on best science practices”. USARK has filed a 36 page Request for Correction under the Information Quality Act demanding a response to 16 serious errors, inaccuracies and mischaracterizations within the report. The Constrictor Report is the sole justification for two federal bills and regulatory rule change that would add Burmese pythons and 8 other constrictors to the Injurious Wildlife list of the Lacey Act.

Now in a paper entitled, Cold weather and the potential range of invasive Burmese pythons, published in a refereed scientific journal called Biological Invasions, scientists question the rash conclusions of Rodda & Reed. 7 of 9 Burmese pythons captured from Everglades National Park and held in outdoor enclosures with heated refugia died in the cold last winter at the USDA facility in Gainesville, FL. One of the authors of the new paper, Michael Avery says, "Our empirical observations cast doubt that Burmese pythons can become established and persist beyond the southern portion of the Florida peninsula."

Currently Burmese pythons are thought to be established in an area restricted to 3 counties of south Florida. Estimates on the die off after the cold winter range from 50%- 90%. Anecdotally no pythons have been found since mid March. This new peer reviewed paper is just one more independent piece of evidence debunking the extremely poor work fielded by USGS on the python invasion question. It begs question of ineptitude or unethical practices on the part of USGS producing questionable science with speculative conclusions on the taxpayer dime with little supporting data.

Click here to read press release in Conservation Maven: http://www.conservationmaven.com/frontpage/cold-weather-limits-potential-range-of-burmese-python-invasi.html

Click here to read New USDA Paper: http://www.usark.org/uploads/PythonColdTempfulltext.pdf
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

It was just a matter of time before the Rodda & Reed paper was going to be refuted by other professionals. This USDA paper is just one of a number of comments from other agencies and professionals over the last year pointing out serious and accurate flaws in the original USGS study. The easiest way to disprove the vast majority of their assertions in the very beginning was to simply look at the historical climate data for the Florida peninsula. Periodic cold fronts intrude into the central Florida region every 5 to 10 years that drop temps below the 30 degree F mark for significant periods of time. This would obviously limit acceptable habitat to the lower third of the State at best. In a worst case scenario, we saw what happened this last winter. I fully understand that there were other political and academic factors involved behind the scenes with the Rodda study, but even with that, it was still ludicrous for them to take this as far as they did. Hopefully the political and public perception damage can be reduced, but that could be a tough one. However, it is fortunate that the attention span of the general public in the U.S. is pretty short, and there are many, many more important issues that they should be scrutinizing than this insignificant one.

Kelly

May I ask what the source is for what you posted? Someone else posted that on another forum. There have been pythons found after mid-March, for the record.

Mike

It was sent out in a newsletter from USARK, suggesting it was written by Andrew Wyatt. I can't get over the spewing of misinformation - it isn't going to help the hobbyists' cause in the least. It only makes people look foolish.

-Cole

The USARK email is the source.
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

Mike then please set the record straight how many have been found and how does that compaire to pre coldsnap numbers?
Rob

Also if you guy looked the report was compleeted feb 19 and accepted in april. Mike how many were caught from the cold snap to feb 19? You guys should know science is an everchanging thing and this info could have been more accurate in feb. Also maby the pythons died and cause of death had not be concluded yet but is is likely that if several died after the cold from something other than the direct cold it was still caused by the cold. Like when someone is shot in Iraq and sent to Germany and weeks later dies of a secondary infection they dont need to count them as KIA even tho it was a direct link to the shot.
Rob

that's the issue, it's the misinformation regarding the paper that's causing my (and that of many others) heartburn. How can we hobbyists expect to be taken seriously when we act like goons? It's shameful, to say the least.

-Cole

Please enlighten us Mike. The last report I heard about was from you.
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USARK

LOL... well I know what you're referring to and that was from a conversation I had with someone on April 9th (I searched my e-mail to find the date of that conversation). It is now May 27th... over 6 weeks later. A bit of a late update if you ask me. If you ever need info feel free to contact me directly and I'll provide what I am allowed to.

I don't have the numbers in front of me and I'm not sure I can give them yet anyway but I would say there are probably fewer burms being encountered this year. I only interjected because it looked like we were one step away from everyone believing they were all gone now. It's safe to say that burm numbers are greatly reduced but I have a pile of data sheets on my desk showing they are still out there.

That's the only point I wanted to make.

Mike

thanks Mike.
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USARK

That is good to know. An honest broker of the facts is a good thing.
Thanks,
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

This is the link referenced at the top of the thread. http://www.conservationmaven.com/frontpage/cold-weather-limits-potential-range-of-burmese-python-invasi.html

This is what caught my attention. Second sentence on the page.

"The infamous invasion of the giant snake to the Everglades and neighboring areas likely occurred from illegally released pets and perhaps accidental escapes during Hurricane Andrew."

I seem to remember reading that its been proven that the Burmese population are genetically linked to the Vietnam imported baby pythons that escaped during Andrew. And studies that show how captive raised pythons lack the survival skills to make it on their own.

Likely we want to blame those bad pet owners who throw away valuable animals that they could have sold. Perhaps we should mention that what really happened is possible maybe. But get that shot in about illegal pet dumping first.

Mike so as of april 19 no pythons were found but now some are showing up? what sizes? You say they are greatly deminished what does that mean 10% 50% 90%. You comment on the acuracy of the report but it is 3 months old and you are the ones with the acurate data but keep it hidden. Why? This is important to us and we would like to pass on accurate info but the ones with the info seem to like to keep it a secret.
Rob

I'm sitting at home with no data in front of me so it's hard for me to answer this accurately at the moment. All I can say off the top of my head is that I know of a couple being caught in the last week or two and I know there have been others before that. Honestly, I'm not good with dates unless they're written down. I remember asking at one point in time if there had been any pythons caught recently and the answer was no but I think that was a somewhat brief amount of time.

I will be one of the happiest people when this info becomes public. Unfortunately, I did not create the rules of the scientific process but I'm sure there are reasons for it. I can say that our paper has been accepted with minor revisions and those have been taken care of so it should be out very soon.

Mike

My post on the law forum seems germane here...

Four things come to mind, to consider with the surviving Python populations:

1) Was there an identifiable artificially manipulated man made microhabitat that possibly contributed to survival, as in a Power Plant, for example? If so, measures should be taken to ensure containment and/or elimination of any new pioneer colonies.

2) Sex and size may be a large factor in survival. There may be a correlation as to greater survivability among smaller snakes and male snakes. With few or no female survivors, there can be no long term continuation of the population.

3) Also, with diminished population densities, snakes will require larger territorial ranges for successful breeding and proliferation. Therefore, successful breeding outcomes should statistically be at a lower percentage of total population, at least in the near term.

4) However remote, there is the chance fecundity and fertility may be at a lower rate, as well. Could be higher, of course.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Hi Mike, I'm guessing that when the paper was written there were no Burmese captures after March at that time. By the time it was published more have been collected. Certainly they are still here. I know of 2 very small ones caught a few days ago. For a time there seemed to be a gap where no one found anything. I know I have yet to find one since the last one about 2 weeks post freeze. You are absolutely right about the fact that Pythons have been caught since March. All I've had a chance to inspect or inquire about have been small ones or males with none over about 7' long. Have you found anymore big ones?....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

USARK Wrote: Anecdotally no pythons have been found since mid March.

This is incorrect, and publicly touting misinformation will NOT help the cause. Plenty of pythons have been found since March. This information isn’t difficult to find by searching databases and forums dedicated to field herping… Repeatedly spewing this kind of garbage only serves to hurt the hobby further. How disappointing…

USARK wrote: 7 of 9 Burmese pythons captured from Everglades National Park and held in outdoor enclosures with heated refugia died in the cold last winter at the USDA facility in Gainesville, FL.

Also incorrect, as is stated in the paper. Only 4/9 Python molurus bivittatus died directly from the cold... Inferrences can be made about some of the others, but they are just that... Inferrences.

-Cole

if you know of pythons that have been found recently please elaborate.

as far as the 7 of 9, that is how it was verbally characterized to me by the authors of the paper and others close to the study.

i am not a scientist, nor a wanna be scientist. my technical writing may not be the most exacting. it doesn't have to be. the truth is not difficult to see. if it was not stated to your satisfaction, my apologies.

please read the paper, do your own research and reach your own conclusions.

because of the work usark has done to get an extension on public comment this study will become part of the public record and stands in contradiction to conclusions reached in the constrictor report.
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USARK

You go, Buddy!
jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

More power to you. Good luck defeating the legislation.

Mike

I've read the paper, and found it "enlightening", as a whole. I also find their conclusions to be much more reasonable and sensible than that of the USGS Report. I do, however, take exception to any misinformation that makes us look foolish. As both a scientist and a hobbyist, I look at things from a perspective probably not shared by many folks.

As for Pythons being found, check these out (just a few of MANY):

Florida Herping

FL Pythons

Pythons, too

As you can see, three species of Python are still turning up.

-Cole

cole
I don't think anyone in the herp comunity thinks or ever thought that all the pythons died but we all want some acurate numbers to be reported. 2 weeks ago jeff corwin was on today show and said there are over a hundred thousand berms in the everglades and never even mentiond the cold killing any. we will pass on acurate info if it is provided to us. how many have been found? 10 50 500? A few here and a few there is to be expected and now is the time to increase hunting but lets get some acurate data out there from the ones with it and let the chips fall as they do but it will be with honest acurate info.
Your comment comment about 3 of the 9 pythons dyind from the cold but the other 5 were euthanizes because they were going to die from secondary infections due to the cold. Come on if that is the case it is the same as dying from the cold.
Rob

I honestly do not know how many have been found. I can assure you that more are seen than are ever reported. That's how it is with herps. I can also assure you that a "number" have, indeed, been seen. Some of those have been gravid. Thoughts?

As I told Tom, I'm on your "side", and I keep a moderately large collection of captives. Do I think we need to be better than "average" to win this battle? Hell yes, I do. We can't afford to slip up - at ANY point. Am I incorrect?

-Cole

I live here and I can tell you that damn few Pythons are being found. I have looked and road cruised and have yet to find one since 2 weeks post freeze which I published pics and info here. The population is NOT gone but are greatly reduced in numbers. The blast that I got from USARK just quoted what OTHER scientist had written. THE GIST WAS THAT THE PYTHONS ARE BARELY ABLE TO LIVE HERE AND COULD NOT POSSIBLY EXIST MUCH FURTHER NORTH THEREFORE REFUTING THE RODDA DOCUMENT ON THEIR ABILITY TO LIVE AS FAR NORTH AS WASHINGTON D.C. Why are you angry at Andrew as without him we would never have gotten an extention or been able to come together in a cohesive coalition as we have. It sounds almost as you have some weird twisted personal agenda going on here. Do you in fact have one? If not what is your beef or I should say "where's the beef"?...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You're best not to confuse friends with foes. I'm on you side, I've signed the petitions, written letters, and joined the mailing lists. Un-click the CAPS LOCK and relax.

I have no "Hidden" agenda, and if you knew anything about me you'd realize that. What I do have is a distaste for misinformation (on BOTH sides), and feel it can only serve to harm us. Do you disagree? I sure hope not...

We both know that pythons have been found since the freeze. Perhaps I'm in better contact with the field herping faction that finds them than you are, but I also agree that the cold snap seriously depressed the population. There's no question about that. However, to ignorantly state that no pythons have been found since March makes us look foolish and gullible. We CANNOT afford that right now... especially when that information is coming from the front lines. Do you disagree? I sure hope not... There's a lot riding on our ability to hold our own. Messing up at this point is unthinkable. I'll leave it at that.

-Cole

No where did I say they were gone but stated I haven't been able to find one since March despite frequently looking for them. It is clear that the majority of the population were killed as the numbers this year are pitifully low compared to last year. I'm in close contact with many folks looking and there is a paucity of Pythons. As far as Andrew goes never before has anyone been able to organize and fight on the level he has. If you have a problem or suggestion wouldn't it be better to do this privatly rather than to criticize openly which might discredit him and USARK with other herpers. When you do this you are cutting your own nose off to spite your face. He and USARK are the only thing that stand between us and these various bills and declarations. It seems to me to be foolhardy to do this and could affect us adversely. Why would you do this openly instead of talking privately? Let's fight the good fight and attack our enemies NOT our friends especially those on the front lines...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom wrote: It is clear that the majority of the population were killed as the numbers this year are pitifully low compared to last year. I'm in close contact with many folks looking and there is a paucity of Pythons.

I believe I agreed with this statement. The population is greatly depressed.

Tom wrote: As far as Andrew goes never before has anyone been able to organize and fight on the level he has.

I agree with this statement, too.

Tom wrote: If you have a problem or suggestion wouldn't it be better to do this privatly rather than to criticize openly which might discredit him and USARK with other herpers. When you do this you are cutting your own nose off to spite your face. He and USARK are the only thing that stand between us and these various bills and declarations. It seems to me to be foolhardy to do this and could affect us adversely. Why would you do this openly instead of talking privately? Let's fight the good fight and attack our enemies NOT our friends especially those on the front lines...

I think it's more than a little valuable to let people see that we're willing to self-regulate, criticize in-house, and strive for accuracy. There's a lot riding on this, so we need to be a step ahead and a cut above those who are agianst us.

-Cole

I think it's more than a little valuable to let people see that we're willing to self-regulate, criticize in-house, and strive for accuracy. There's a lot riding on this, so we need to be a step ahead and a cut above those who are agianst us.

That is true but as has been said before a divided house doesn't stand and the public appearance of a divided house is a sign of weakness our enemies will use against us. Flaming idiots on here is one thing but going after USARK with anything more than constructive criticism that could benefit others besides USARK openly on here is plain stupid (axl rose would be in concrete shoes lol).

Professionally as a musician I have had people pull stuff like that on stage in front of an audience. I am a second generation musician with old school values like the "show must go on" and such and that type of behavior is a cardinal sin in the music world.
I am generally a nice guy but I will fire people for that one EVERY time and I am quite vicious about it when I fire them for it.
Like I said it's one thing to criticize it is another to do it where our enemies can see it and use it as an achilles heel.

Andrew and I have taken it private. He's done a fine job, as a whole, in representing the interests of the hobby. It's incredibly naive, however, to assume that the other side isn't picking apart everything that's said by us and those who represent us. It's foolish to think they're going to sit back and let "us" make blatant mischaracterizations about the current situation without stinging us with it later. Showing we're willing to police ourselves in order to get the correct information out is a major step in the right direction for us. Keeping it hush-hush isn't going to help anything. We need to NOT be the political propaganda machine that the other side is...

-Cole

It's not a matter of keeping inaccurate info hush hush it is a matter of keeping out and out arguments and border line character assassination on the down low. That is the stuff that will hurt us. I have seen this done to not only usark on here but the moderator and mike rochford as well in the past among others. That infighting out in the open is what they will use, and believe me they will use it more than they will inaccurate facts.

Calparsoni wrote: That infighting out in the open is what they will use, and believe me they will use it more than they will inaccurate facts.

I have issue with this statement. I would suspect that the anti-python folks won't be taking our mistakes with a grain of salt. We need to keep our heads up.

Calparsoni wrote: it is a matter of keeping out and out arguments and border line character assassination on the down low.

Borderline character assassination? I think not. I pointed out misinformation in a widely distributed public comment. I have no ill will toward Andrew. I simply beg and implore the community, as a whole, to distribute ONLY accurate information. Is there something wrong with that?

As for keeping the arguments "under the table"... Why? We should all know that as herp-keepers we're far from a unified group. Showing that we're willing to discuss and resolve issues publicly bodes well for us, I'd say.

-Cole

Personally, I don't think it hurts for that to be discussed in public. I think it hurts more when blatantly incorrect info is passed around as if it is fact. It's ok to be wrong. Everyone makes mistakes. How you handle it is what matters.

I can tell you that I didn't notice that error on the forum first... I received an e-mail making a mockery of it and it's not the first time that has happened. So that kind of stuff makes news in our circle pretty quickly. I think the inaccuracies hurt more than an honest public discussion because the "enemies" have probably already seen what has happened anyway.

Just my opinion. Not sure if you even want to hear it.

Anyway, I commend the work Andrew has done in organizing people and hope it pays off. In terms of the big picture one little error isn't a big deal. I just hope there are attempts to minimize that sort of thing.

Mike

I think I am a little confused about what info was inacurate? was it about none being caught yet? This was completed in feb was this accurate at that time?
Rob

I'm confused too. This is the statement I'm referring too:

"Anecdotally no pythons have been found since mid March."

I don't think it comes from the study at all..... only from the USARK e-mail. Correct me if I'm wrong. I may be overlooking something (it's been known to happen).

Plenty of pythons have been found since mid-March. Over a dozen were found in April alone.

Mike

oh ok I see I thought it was about the study. I think that is eversteping your bounds of acuracy if you only knew from feb.
Where can someone find out how many are caught from the day you are going to make statement so we can be more acurate, arn't all legaly collected ones suposed to go somewhere to be counted and euthanized?
Rob

Here's a starting point (although admittedly not very detailed):

http://www.nps.gov/ever/naturescience/burmesepython.htm

But it would be easy enough to ask one of us. Giving raw numbers might be impossible until it is published, but to say "yes, burms have been found in moderate numbers since mid-March" wouldn't be a problem.

Mike

Ok Mike I like you but that was a lousy answer. You wan't us to provide acurate info and you will only provide subjective numbers, what does modreate numbers mean!!!! If someone believes there are 300,000 bermes our there and someone says moderate numbersthey may think 3,000 were found. The number found does not need to be vetted it is a documented number keeping the true numbers a secret hurts everyone.
By the time your numbers become part of a report they are 2 months or older.
You said 12 were found in april? all alive? what size? were they all caught or just seen? and possibly recounted? how many were just seen? were any of them the known taged ones? About how many man hours did it take to find 12? How does this compair to last year at the same time. how many man hours were spent last year looking in april.
This is important because the country was lied to about the danger and the range. people were told YOU AND YOUR PETS ARE NOT SAFE EVEN IF YOU LIVE IN OHIO THEY ARE COMMING FOR YOU!!! And all we want to do is to put it into perspective for the country and if we say it we are bias we need someone like you guys to go on to the today show and say relax people they are not giong above this line (I think it is LakeO) but you guys must have a line and don't be conservative and just say florida be realistic and tell them 9 of 10 tracked ones died in extreen south florida and at least 80% of them died in the last cold. or what ever persentage you think and it is better to over estamate the number that died to stop a panic than to under estimate it. all the "expert" estimates are very low 40 to 60% these are made up numbers to cover ones butt and to keep the fear alive.
Rob

Ok Mike I like you but that was a lousy answer. You wan't us to provide acurate info and you will only provide subjective numbers, what does modreate numbers mean!!!!

Huh?! How so? Mike provided you with more info than you had before, and does so on a regular basis. A little research goes a long way - there's more info out there, too... Hunt it down yourself if you want the facts. And what on Earth is wrong with wanting "you"/"us" (I'm included in "us", I think, since I keep herps) to provide accurate info?! LOL Dude, if you think making things up is going to help you out, then more power to ya.

As far as why Mike can't release specific number until the work is reviewed and published, it has a lot to do with scientific integrity and intellectual plagiarism. A real, solid scientific work (unlike the USGS Internal Report) must generally undergo a blind peer review process. The purpose of the peer review is to examine the work for errors in methods, calculations, etc. Sometimes papers are rejected due to major flaws in the work, and often they're sent back to the authors (scientists) to make various corrections. Standard practice dictates that valauble data pertaining to the work is not released until after the paper is published in an appropriate journal to prevent intellectual plagerism and theft. This process keeps the work honest and without major flaws. That's how real science works. Mike, Frank, and others (who are on the same "side" as the hobbyists) are working hard to produce real, solid scientific conclusions that everyone wants and needs.

I'm blown away by the anti-intellectualism that goes on.

-Cole

cole you talked all nice in our private email... but you come back on here insinuating that i am lying, making things up, foolish. there is no dishonesty here. no one is making things up. we used the facts that were available. i didn't write a paper. i reported on it. you claim to be a scientist, but you act like a kid in a forum quarrel. you don't like what i said so you call me foolish and imply that i am lying... very professional. thank you.
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USARK

I'm not saying you're lying - not at all. I simply think you were misinformed. Don't read more into this than is there. As I said before (both in public and in private), you've done a hell of a good job uniting the keeper community and rallying the troops to fight for the cause. That's for the record. What I request, though, is that EVERYONE (USARK and others) get the facts straight before sending out an authoritative e-mail to thousands of people. I don't think this is something you did maliciously. I think it was a mistake and an oversight. You're in a position of great power right now, Andrew. You're the "face of the people", so to speak. There's an old quote that comes to mind: "With great power comes great responsibility." Your words are the ones being listened to, so please, make them count.

I'll say it again, please don't take this the wrong way. I certainly don't think I could do the job you're doing. It's gotta be rough - us herpers are a motley group.

-Cole

How exactly is immediately reporting the finding of a python to the public jeopardizing the scientific integrity of anything? Now I perfectly understand what you are saying with regard to specific data and research for technological, medical and other potentially profitable endeavors. But in this situation, how is reporting the number of snakes (and if they are alive or dead) something that NEEDS to be withheld from the public?

It has nothing to do with profitability. It also has nothing to do with any sort of obligation to provide information to a select group of people (pet owners) before the work is finished just because they want it. We are being privileged with information collected by others. Being rude and demanding things from those who can help is about as bass-ackwards as things can be.

-Cole

Don't know who you are, but your comments do seem rather disingenuous. Do seem to be real close to the situation.
Might I suggest, if you and your associates are not able to comment, then perhaps you should do just that.

I fail to see how various interpretations on what the definition of "is" is, really benefits the conversation.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

>>It has nothing to do with profitability. It also has nothing to do with any sort of obligation to provide information to a select group of people (pet owners) before the work is finished just because they want it. We are being privileged with information collected by others. Being rude and demanding things from those who can help is about as bass-ackwards as things can be.
>>
>>-Cole

You didn't answer the simple question. I'm not being rude or demanding, just asking a simple question. How is it that telling the public in a timely fashion that 1) a python was found, and 2) if it was dead or alive is jeopardizing anything.

You accuse others of being "anti-intellectual", but isn't it anti-intellectual to ignore the basic fact that every process has advantages AND disadvantages? This cloak of secrecy about finding pythons can be just as corrupt as not having a cloak of secrecy. Given the subject matter (ie, finding pythons), personally I find it suspicious that there is this cloak of secrecy.

And I'm curious, is there some indication that there are parties interested in stealing python research and data? I mean come on, you guys are finding snakes in the woods/swamps, it's not like you're discovering DNA or coming up with a new cancer drug. In the grand scheme of life, it's just not all that important.

If information is released and is not externally and independently peer reviewed (as was done with the large constrictor report) then it is not credible and should not be used.

If information is kept until it is peer reviewed then there is a conspiracy to hide the data and keep it from the public.

Doesn't make a difference what they do, they are wrong either way, pretty cool. I think you got 'em.

However, if I were the researchers I would go for peer review as it is the most acceptable way for them to meet their responsibility to provide the information to the public. Especially when an issue is controversial.

If the results are released as they are obtained rather than summarized, synthesized, and interpreted it is news not science.

And I know this has been mentioned before but there is a Scientific Journal Embargo Policy (google the capitalized words) that prevents the release of data prior to publication.

I really don't see how the goveronment saying how many bermese pythons have been found dead or removed alive up to the present date is going to affect any paper it is not a subjective thing it is a number and I hope any paper involved in a studdy will be more than a tally of the number found. Also by the time any report is finished its 2 months old and this is an ever changing number. I don't want to know how many are in there report I want to know how many have been found as of today. Somehow I think If the momentum was on our side and knowing the numbers would help shift it to Salzars direction he would have the info today and would make it public.
Rob

If information is released and is not externally and independently peer reviewed (as was done with the large constrictor report) then it is not credible and should not be used.

I don't need a peer reviewed scientific report to tell me the sky is blue nor do I need one to tell me that cold wiped out most of the pythons or that they aren't going to survive much further north.
The way some people on here carry on about the scientific process it really makes me wonder how we survived as a species before science came along.

They talk out of both sides of their mouths. Want it both ways.

On the one hand they call out USARK for spreading lies.

Then on the other hand they hide behind this veil of scientific protocol and ethics.

As they say in court -- "You opened the door...".

And I see a lot of this "lol" thing, while parsing words and dancing around the issue. Pretty much the same as calling someone a liar with a smile on your face, in my book.

Where was all the scientific integrity in the beginning?

Weren't all you authorities/biologists/scientists/concerned stakeholders the ones constantly being quoted in the media with all those hysterically inaccurate assessments of the situation?

Managed to distance yourselves from those stories to some degree, and now your hiding behind truth, fairness, and scientific accuracy.

Herpocrisy at its best.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

whoops, ouch, hot! Sorry I did not mean to offend anyone, wasn't trying to be sarcastic, but I obviously did not express my self clearly. Let me try again.

First, I did not explicitly or implicitly call anyone a liar. Not even sure where that one comes from.

Second, I agree with you all that short of saying what you them to when you want them to there is nothing that the scientists can say or do that appears useful to you. I would be frustrated if not angry also. Science appears to you as an unfriendly, confusing, stupid, to even hostile process. Given how you have been treated by the scientific process no reason for you to feel otherwise. I am sure not suggesting so. In fact I understand why you feel the way you do.

Third, given that for a number of reasons scientists can't do what you want to when you want them to I don't blame them for wanting to release everything through peer reviewed or other appropriate outlets and for at least some of them for wanting to stop seeing the results of their work published in the media and online. I understand why they are acting they way they are.

Hence the I understand title to this post.

Final comment, I hope everyone has learned to take what you read and see in the media with a grain of salt. Clearly misinformation abounds. For example, the USARK statement that anecdotally (according to stories) no pythons were found since 15 March was true because all of the stories in the media were wrong.

This also means that just because you haven't seen scientists fighting this in the media yet doesn't mean they aren't doing so.

I see a wide variety of opinions posted here and I bet the scientists involved in working on pythons also have a variety of opinions. I would not paint them all with the same brush. (Not telling anyone else what to do).

But I would not trust any of them till they prove to you otherwise.

I see both "sides" (if sides really exist) as having reasons for doing what they are doing. I am not saying that anyone is wrong and boy I am sure not telling anyone else what to do or how to think. I have enough trouble being responsible for myself.

Fair enough?

Second, I agree with you all that short of saying what you them to when you want them to there is nothing that the scientists can say or do that appears useful to you. I would be frustrated if not angry also. Science appears to you as an unfriendly, confusing, stupid, to even hostile process. Given how you have been treated by the scientific process no reason for you to feel otherwise. I am sure not suggesting so. In fact I understand why you feel the way you do.

I'll try to keep that in mind as I am sharpening my spears for hunting bison to feed my family. Maybe these "scientists' could give me one of their fire sticks to make the hunt easier for me.
Is it true the earth is not flat but round like a ball????

I absolutely love your reply and wit....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Comparing the Pythons to the current oil spill is like comparing a Fire Ant bite to that of an adult Crotalus adamanteus. Your post was well said Crocpot and I agree with is on most parts. I've been interacting a bit [not here] with some of the folks addressing the Python problem and I do NOT believe all of them are our enemies and in fact believe their trying to mitigate a solution all can live with. I fully understand their concerns just as I understand our concerns. I believe shortly we'll have the info we want and need. If something isn't done to plug the leak in the oil rig we can all just dip our oil from the Gulf of Mexico soon and the oil shortage is over. If it continues one has to wonder how our wildlfe [us included] are going to fare long term. Most endemic Cyclura [Rock Iguanas] occur in the Bahama's. One has to wonder if this might not be the beginning of the end for those since very few are in captivity and NONE are being captive bred due to short sighted politics by folks here in particular the AZA....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You are talking generalities, I am not. I'm not arguing there shouldn't be any peer review process. I'm asking why the number of pythons found and whether they were dead or alive needs to be held private for so long. How is that jeopardizing anything? It's really a very simple question. So what if it is "news"?

Am I angry? Damn right. You and a few others start lecturing the forum about "the scientific process", but where the heck is/was the "scientific community's" criticism of the following:

- the USGS report. That report came out over two years ago.

- all the media reports about pythons having "no natural enemies", even when the USGS report itself was accompanied by a picture of an alligator EATING a python. The "no natural enemies" line is probably one of the most disgraceful spins I've ever seen on any subject.

- All the completely unsubstantiated accusations of pet owners releasing pythons into the Everglades

- The conclusion that pythons are wreaking havoc on indigenous fauna.

The irony is that so many blame snake hobbyists for not policing themselves. The way I see it, maybe the "scientific community" needs to start policing itself.

The bottom line here is that we all know pythons can't survive outside of south Florida. That so much public money is being spent on researching this is a travesty. It should have never gotten to this point.

If you help fight off some of the idiotic laws, then great. I for one would be happy to see some real science.

Yes. The scientists' fingerprints are all over the disproved unsubstantiated allegations strategically placed in the media early on.

Now they want to dance back behind the curtain of scientific integrity for cover.

How convenient.

There can be no doubt of a preconceived bias in their actions.

jsc
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"As hard as I've tried, just can't NOT do this"
John Crickmer

Mike I took a look at that site and the numbers seem a bit funny
from 3/22 to 5/9 only 15 were found and removed and from 1/1 to 3/21 147 were found and removed??? Did you not say by the middle of feb non had been found? What were 147 found in march?
Do these represent dead ones found and removed if so this is unbelievably dishonest because dead ones are a possitive sign and live ones is a negative sign and the inference to the average person is these were all alive.
Rob

there is nothing to hide. i stand behind all of our statements. including the one about anecdotal reports of pythons found. all reports that i have gotten are that no live pythons have been found for some time. if that is incorrect... fine. cole showed me a couple of pythons that were found. and now i have heard that several more have been found. that still seems to be very few. mike are you saying that academics in the field are finding far more pythons than by those in private sector. if so why is this info not being made public? is there another study going on that precludes making this info available?
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USARK

BTW- the word anecdotally allows for a certain degree of inaccuracy.

"Anecdotally no pythons have been found since mid March."

That essentially means there have not been any reports of pythons found made public since mid March.
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USARK

You might want to look up the meaning of the word "anecdotal", as it is a very important qualifier in this particular context.

Please know that your hard work is appreciated.
Aaron
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www.voodoomagicboas.com

3/9 pythons died directly from the cold...

-Cole

Please note the final statement in this direct quote:

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USARK

sorry for some reason quote didn't print...

"During the cold spell, 3 of the 9 pythons were found dead. Two others developed infections and were euthanized after consultation with and at the recommendation of our attending veterinarian. Two snakes exhibited clinical signs (wheezing, nasal discharge) of respiratory distress, most likely fatal had we not intervened (E. R. Jacobson, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL, personal comment). In keeping with our responsibility under animal care and use guidelines, we moved these snakes indoors to recover. The final two pythons (both males, 3.4 and 9.0 kg, respectively) showed no ill effects and remained outdoors. Thus, including the 2 snakes with overt respiratory problems, we ascribe mortality from cold weather effects to 7 of the 9 pythons."
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USARK

Andrew (I assume this is Andrew, anyway),

The deaths of three of the 9 captive pythons can be directly attributed to the cold temperatures. The deaths of two others can be inferred to have been caused by the inability to properly thermoregulate and "kick" the resulting infection. Two others were sick, and deemed in need of euthanasia by a veterinarian. The deaths of these last four animals can only be attributed to the cold by inference - there's no two ways about it. The two that died of respiratory infection are only of limited value since they were denied natural ability to move freely. The two that were euthanized honestly may or may not have lived. We will never know. On top of this, 9 pythons is hardly a statistically significant number in relation to the population as a whole.

However, I think you're mistaking my point here. Do I think the USGS Report was flawed? Hell yes! Do I think the pythons have the ability to spread beyond South Florida? No way! But... We need to keep our heads up, be truthful (even when others may not be), and not make rash inferences. Being foolish will NOT help our cause. I beg you, BEG YOU! to be the best we can be. Finger pointing, name calling, and making things up is the worst we can do. Thoughts?

-Cole

The paper says what it says...

"Thus, including the 2 snakes with overt respiratory problems, we ascribe mortality from cold weather effects to 7 of the 9 pythons."

I believe it is you, not me, that is pointing fingers and calling names.
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USARK

Andrew wrote: I believe it is you, not me, that is pointing fingers and calling names.

Hey, I'm just calling it like I see it.

From Merriam-Webster (bold emphasis is mine):

Main Entry: as·cribe
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈskrîb\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): as·cribed; as·crib·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin ascribere, from ad- + scribere to write — more at scribe
Date: 15th century
: to refer to a supposed cause, source, or author

synonyms ascribe, attribute, assign, impute, credit mean to lay something to the account of a person or thing. ascribe suggests an inferring or conjecturing of cause, quality, authorship . attribute suggests less tentativeness than ascribe , less definiteness than assign . assign implies ascribing with certainty or after deliberation . impute suggests ascribing something that brings discredit by way of accusation or blame . credit implies ascribing a thing or especially an action to a person or other thing as its agent, source, or explanation .

"Ascribe" is tenative in nature. This will be picked up on by the other side. Ignoring that fact is foolhardy. At Tom's suggestion, I'd be willing to take this private.

-Cole

All I have to say to the people that wrote the BS report about any python or boa being able to reside as far north as the Ohio river valley is ha ha told you so. Thank god for real scientist.