Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was at a reptile show today in New Orleans and saw mangrove snake for sale in a deli-cup next to deli-cups filled with corn snakes, spotted pythons, and other non-venomous snakes. My question: how toxic is their venom? This show does not allow for venomous reptiles to be sold, so I guess most people don't consider them venomous enough to be of concern for the rules? I am just wondering because I always thought they were "somewhat" dangerous, but perhaps I am wrong.

They aren't allowed at the nonven shows around here. I've never messed with them but i was under the impression that it is only a poor delivery system that makes them less dangerous

I've got one, and I treat it just like anything else venomous. I know they're rear fanged, but trust me they open that mouth up a bit too wide for my comfort, and the one time one got a hold of a piece of clothing I was wearing (the first week I had them) it was a solid bite that definitely got stuck in the fabric. I'm under the impression though that as far as venom toxicity, it all depends on the individual involved. I've heard some people say it's not much more than localized swelling and pain, and I've heard compare it to a "true" venomous bite. I've also NEVER seen them at a non-venomous show, so it's possible the guy was just hoping no one would notice. I'm not going to take chances with whether or not I'm one of the ones who has a bad reaction.

Im surprised they would risk selling it there...but overall the show was much better self-regulated than ones in the past. No baby burms sold to 10 year olds or anything like that, which I saw at a show once a few years ago.

Could be the state or the show sponsors treat certain rear fangs the same as non venomous...no idea. I mean, hognose are technically rearfanged, and we have those on our table at every show we go to. Granted, I treat my mangroves MUCH different than my hognoses (and they both treat me differently as well)

It comes down to this: Show us the bodies. It applies to everything that could be perceived dangerous. Second Hand Smoke, Steroids, rear-fanged snakes, etc. Mangroves have been kept in captivity by lots of people. If they were really dangerous, there would likely be evidence of death/injury.

Perhaps the venom is dangerous but the delivery poor. Perhaps it's simply that they aren't typically a "handling" type snake so dangerous bites don't happen much due to little exposure. If you're thinking of getting one, gloves, goggles and a long sleeve sweatshirt is probably good enough to protect for cage maintenance and most other interactions.

Doug T
Doug Taylor Reptiles

I agree. SOME people MAY be allergic to the venom of a Mangrove, and that might cause some difficulty. As far as Hognoses being TECHICALLY Venomous, because they are rear-fanged, they are in the same class as mangroves, as THEY are rear-fanged also. You can't make a distinction on "Rear-Fanged", they either are, or not. Both Hognose and Mangrove fall into that description.
BOTH are rear-fanged, one is not lesser than the other.

Randal Berry

Has anyone had any serious effects from a hognose bite? I used to catch them all the time as a kid. I thought their fangs were mostly for "popping" toads

A few hognose bites have resulted in dramatic symptoms (at least for a species widely regarded as completely harmless), including extensive swelling, tenderness, and pain. A case study was presented at Venom Week 2009. The symptoms occurred too quickly to have been caused by bacterial infection, but resolved on their own sometime later. The species in question, H. nasicus, is generally quite inoffensive (the only real bites I know of were feeding related), and I don't think they should be considered as anything other than "relatively" harmless. Certainly not an animal warranted to be considered venomous by any legal standard, though by a biological definition, they most certainly are.
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Abhishek Prasad

Why would you need goggles?

Just in case you have one that's prone to strike towards the face. It's a decent rule for any large arboreal when your face could be within striking range.

Doug T

>>Why would you need goggles?

According to Fry et al., B. dendrophila has an extremely neurotoxic venom on par with Acanthophis. However, owing to the extremely poor delivery system, bites from this species have not been documented as life-threatening, though I've seen impressive bite pictures, which I can provide links to upon request. One bite I've seen in particular involving a 4 ft. individual (of which locality I cannot recall) resulted in impressive tissue damage, owing to the metalloprotease activity of the venom.

I only have one mangrove myself, and she's around ~6.5 feet. I've never been bitten by her, but I definitely don't want to be. When she was eating live rodents (she's been on f/t rats for a number of years now), I'd seen her incapacitate them without any aid of constriction in less than 15 seconds...death has been observed in under a minute (or at least there was no observable respiration from the rodent). It's probably not going to kill you, but it can make your day go to crap pretty quickly I'd imagine.
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Abhishek Prasad

Several years ago I carelessly let a large female Mangrove snag my right thumb. She held on solidly for almost a minute before I managed to work her mouth off. Fangs definitely came in contact as a stinging pain started almost immediately, followed by a slight swelling of the thumb and upper hand area. Subsided rather quickly over the next hour and never amounted to anything more than a scare. What was very noticable was the bleeding. Blood just flowed from the bite area. Had to finally wrap a bandage around the hand to keep blood from dripping from my thumb as I walked/worked. Once was enough. These animals definitely merit respect when being handled.

Mangrove snake venom can cause extensive pain, swelling, and coagulopathy (thinning of the blood) hence the bleeding response however the species being rear-fanged lacks an effective venom delivery system unless you are prey size or they get a good chew on you. Effects are treated symptomatically since no antivenin exist.

Hognose bites have been documented as causing significant pain, bruising and swelling that can progress up a limb as pointed out. An excellent case study of Western Hognose Envenomation was presented at the Venom Week Symposium, but again treatment is symptomatic.

Another snake included in this discussion would be the False Water Cobra which has been doscumented as causing significant pain, swelling and even a mild paralysis in the bitten limb (But not a severe flaccid paralysis capable of respiratory paralysis). Again the bite is treated symptomatically.

Joe Pittman, RN, CSPI, Snakebite Treatment Specialist
Director, Florida Snakebite Institute
Poison Specialist, Florida Poison Information Center-Tampa