Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Finally got some head pics of my blood.Would like id help-Thanks HS
Pics img713.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=dsc00021ag.jpg

Looks like a big old p. breitensteini (aka borneo).
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Those photos help tremendously and I am much more certain now that this is a hybrid. I enlarged the side view photos and was unable to see any evidence of subocular scales, which would point to P. brongersmai. From the earlier photo, the anterior dorsal surface is highly faded like mature P. curtus, but uncharacteristically brown in color. However, the clincher is the top of head photo. If you enlarge it, you can see that the parietal scales are small and only in point contact. This is only seen in P. curtus. With this mixed combination of physical traits, I am almost certain that this is a brongersmai X curtus hybrid.

Kelly

first thing I thought was a brongersmai hybrid due to the subocular scales, but was unsure of with what but I am still trying to learn how to tell by scale configuration, Kelly by any chance do you have a diagram that points out the parietal scales so I know kind of what your talking about with those?

Thanks for any info
Zack
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Zack Greens Reptiles

Z-here's a good paper

http://www.anu.edu.au/BoZo/Scott/PDF Files/2001.Keoghetal.P.curtus.pdf

group species. Below I have a copy of a plate from the excellent paper referenced in the previous post. Unfortunately the plates in this paper do not identify any of the scale locations used to distinguish the different species from each other, and assumes the reader already has that knowledge. I have placed arrows on the plate to show the location of the anterior pair of parietal scales on each species. The left drawing is that of P. breitensteini and the right drawing is that of P. curtus. The configuration and location of the anterior parietal scales on P. brongersmai is very similar to that seen with P. breitensteini and both are characterized by an area of broad contact at the centerline of the head. P. curtus is much different than the other two species in that there is either almost no contact at the centerline, or very minimal contact. This is a very significant morphological distinction within this group and can definitely be used to help differentiate P. curtus from the other two species.

Kelly

Thanks alot Trevor and Jeff, I've seen that article but always forgot to save it, not this time.

So an overview of my lesson lol

P. Brongersmai - No Subocular Scales, Labial Scale goes all the way to the eye, Parietal Scales meet with large area at center line

P. Breitensteini - With small Subocular Scales between the Labial Scale and the eye, Parietal Scles meet with large area at center of line, much like P. Brongersmai

P. Curtis - With small Sobocular Scales between the Labial Scale and the eye, Parietal Scales meet at a point, or little contact, at the center line

Is all this correct?

Thanks
Zack
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Zack Greens Reptiles

Whenever you run across a specimen that you are unsure of, the two quick checks that will tell you a lot right off are:
1. Do the supralabials directly contact the orbit of the eye.
2. Are the anterior parietal scales in broad or minor contact.

With possible hybrids, you will be checking these morphological characteristics as well as other pattern and color attributes and seeing which are apparent and which overlap on a given animal. Hybrids can definitely be confusing when dealing with species that are this closely related. This is very similar to the problems involved when trying to ID hybrids between specimens of the Python molurus complex. This is why I am so opposed to the intentional hybridization of closely related boid taxa. It makes it extremely difficult in some cases to maintain a pure captive linage with some of these species.

Kelly

Kelly, excellent post. This is something I find a hard time articulating to others about the appearance of hybrids.
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Oh dear sweet Kelly,

I would SOOOOOO love to have you post this as its own topic so I can make this a sticky note.

Pretty Please with T-negs or magpies on top?
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I was taking a closer look at these pictures, and I believe I do see some small subocular scales which would lead to really a P. Curtis, but that doesn't rule out Curtis x Breit anyone else see that or is it a glare of the scale? if you enlarge the photo you can clearly see subocular scales, I think

Zack
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Zack Greens Reptiles

Thank you for your help.I really don't like the idea of mixing animals and am disappointed she is a hybrid.I'd be much happier with a red or black.But at least now I am sure what she is. HS

Just another question-I noticed that some scales on the head just past the nose (top view) seem dried out.I just wanted to ask about it in case anyone has any comments-Thanks-Harold