Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for ZooMed

In memoriam of a Chrysopelea ornata ssp.

deathstalker Aug 02, 2010 06:14 PM

Yes, hello All. I haven't been on these forums in years, but I felt like sharing something special to me.

Today, August 2nd, my longest-term-kept Chrysopelea ornata ssp. of nearly five (5) years--"Angina" her name was, 'custom-derived' from Indonesian 'angin' meaning "wind"--died what I believe a natural death. I had received her on September 15, 2005, from Jeff Kowalsky of Exotic Aquatic Reptile in MN whom I had obtained MANY C. ornata ssp. from and kept successfully.

Angina was WC and full-grown to begin with, but she was as healthy and beautiful as could be. She had been kept in the same exact spot of the basement all her time, only having switched enclosures once a few years ago, from a 29-gallon aquarium to a nice Exo-Terra PT2612 (24"Wx18"Dx24"H). Everybody of the select few to travel the basement loved viewing her...she was always so conscious/alert and cute with her big round pupils, and of course attractive as We all know the genus of Chrysopelea is.

Her last shed was on April 30th of this year (previous shed was on 9/30/09), in one piece minus the eye caps which I found peculiar. I did everything I could to safely remove them (all "tricks of the trade" exercised), but to no avail. It reminded me of ancient "Pagan" times when the elderly became too old and weak and had nothing more to offer the village...to keep their dignity, they would then wander the forest to whither. This told me Angina's time was coming. But she continued to tough it out, be moderately active up and down from her tree, and ate:

5/10: 1 peach fuzzy
5/19: 2 peach fuzzies
5/27: 3 peach fuzzies
6/4: 3 peach fuzzies
6/21: 3 peach fuzzies...her last meal

Since that final meal, I observed ever so slowly-progressing emaciation occurring (mostly in the posterior third of her body), and she had also had this abnormally big infection- or tumor-looking bulge post-neck/beginning of body for a very long time (about a year perhaps), yet she had NO problems eating and keeping it down, and her feces were indicative of this. Id est, the food was able to pass through this area without problems, and thus ingestion-->digestion appeared normal. But I have pictures for anyone and everyone willing to try and diagnose what Angina could have possibly had - I just wish I could post more than one at a time on here...? I am sure it was directly or indirectly linked to her death, along with the retained eye caps to the end which impaired her vision to possible blindness.

I like to believe Angina died a natural death, as again, she was WC and full-grown to begin with when I got her on September 15, 2005 (yet most healthy and beautiful), and nothing changed with the environment inside and outside of her enclosure, and her f/t food of course parasite-free. Thus, if she was a human, I would regard Angina as having lived a good, healthy and full life and going out with an honourable death.

R.I.P., Angina. (Pre-)9/15/05-8/2/10

Until today, of my eight (8) snakes I had (now, I have seven (7) without Angina), she was the third longest-term-kept one I had. She was a GREAT snake and pet, and though a natural death which is a beautiful thing, it is a sad day for me.

***

Since January 5, 2001, when I received my first-ever Chrysopelea ornata ssp. from Glades Herp, I had become most attached to this species (and also the 0.1 Chrysopelea pelias I had acquired from Glades Herp back in 2003-2004). I had/have also considered this date the beginning of a new era in my now-near-19 years of keeping snakes, where I would specialize in the keeping of rare and unusual species - many that most people had never even heard of - especially rear-fanged/mildly veneomous, most coincidentally coming from (SE) Asia and more coincidentally, most being arboreal.

Not boasting here, I consider myself to be quite experienced with these snakes, and should anyone ever want help or tips on how to properly maintain them--although they've been in trade for a while now, and thus I am sure many more people have had success with them, too--I would be glad to be of assistance and pass my experiences on to You including faults as well ("trial and error," You know?). I am actually contemplating typing up a caresheet.

For the record, I currently own (from longest-term-kept to most recent):

0.1 Leioheterodon madagascariensis, "Pepper," since 10-21-03
0.0.1 Boiga dendrophila, "Eversor" (Latin for "destroy" which has irony - please do inquire, heh), since 10-5-04
0.0.1* Eunectes notaeus, "James," since 4-15-06
1.1 Heterodon nasicus, "Mr. and Mrs. Pug" - the Mrs. since 7-14-09 (inherited from my cousin who went into the military]; the Mr. since 11-11-09
1.0 Lampropeltis getula nigrita, "Blackie," since 10-23-09 (inherited from a former friend who was getting rid of snakes due to busy-ness)
0.0.1 Acrochordus granulatus**, "Flaps," since 4-11-10

*The vendor at the New England Reptile Expo in Manchester, NH, that I purchased James from and I tried to sex it and believe it is a female; however, it was too squirmy, and We didn't want to hurt it, so I'll never be 100% sure until I bring it somewhere, hence the 0.0.1. NOTE: My girlfriend (at the time) and I named it after the most kind vendor, James, whom had assisted Us, before We sexed it. James is also my middle name (truth be told...no stupid expression).
**Yes, the Banded Elephant Trunk Snake, a.k.a. "Little Filesnake" that only a select few around the world have successfully kept long-term. I will take pride in maintaining him for over three (3) months now, and videos of Flaps eating may be viewed at www.acrochordus.com and YouTube. They are the first-ever known videos on the internet.

Thank You, All, for reading this.

Sincerely,
Timothy
Image
-----
T.J. Gould

Replies (8)

PHFaust Aug 03, 2010 10:05 AM

Very cool tribute!

I had the pleasure of meeting my first elephant trunk snake recently on a trip to reptile gardens. Very unusual snake with an amazing feel. As Terry pulled it out, he did warn me that the chances of getting bit were pretty high, but I missed that bullet. Here are a few shots...




-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

deathstalker Aug 03, 2010 01:25 PM

Thank You!

That is a nice looking specimen - was it Acrochordus javanicus, or Acrochordus arafurae, do You know? Looks like the latter, but it is difficult to tell.

The genus Acrochordus are highly unique and make great display animals if You can actually see them, heh. Interestingly, they are so unique--biologically, physiologically, and so forth--that some scientists/biologists hesitate to call them snakes believe it or not! Id est, yes, some consider them a different animal...!

They are a high maintainence genus to keep (more with Acrochordus granulatus), but if You do the studying here: www.acrochordus.com and make the time, You can do it. ***I will be making a caresheet for A. granulatus soon, including everything that did and did not work (my "trials and errors" so to speak). NOTE: Unless it is extremely necessary, do NOT--I repeat, DO NOT--hold these animals!! They are simply a look and do NOT touch genus! They have very delicate bone and muscle structure when out of the water. And, of course, the possible tendency to bite in the cases of A. javanicus and A. arafurae which, according to stories, hold on and don't let go, ha! Contrary to 'historical' belief, A. granulatus are not venomous.

Thanks for the response!!

Sincerely
Timothy

P.S. I will try to take a picture or two of Flaps to post on here, but You can check out those videos at www.acrochordus.com and YouTube to hold You over.

>>Very cool tribute!
>>
>>I had the pleasure of meeting my first elephant trunk snake recently on a trip to reptile gardens. Very unusual snake with an amazing feel. As Terry pulled it out, he did warn me that the chances of getting bit were pretty high, but I missed that bullet. Here are a few shots...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----
>>Cindy Steinle
>>PHFaust
>>Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
>> Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!
-----
T.J. Gould

PHFaust Aug 04, 2010 11:58 AM

>>Thank You!
>>
>>That is a nice looking specimen - was it Acrochordus javanicus, or Acrochordus arafurae, do You know? Looks like the latter, but it is difficult to tell.
>>

Honestly, no clue! I would have to ask Terry to let me know. This was more of show and tell for me as I visited on behalf of kingsnake. Terry had the chance to show off all his animals! I personally prefer far easier to care for animals, but it was a very cool experience to get close to this species. He does have this one on display at Reptile Gardens in Rapid City South Dakota. Ill see if I can get him to swing over here and comment.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

deathstalker Aug 04, 2010 02:56 PM

Ah, it's all good (for now, heh), but yeah, I'd like to know just for curiosity sake.

Sincerely,
Timothy

>>>>Thank You!
>>>>
>>>>That is a nice looking specimen - was it Acrochordus javanicus, or Acrochordus arafurae, do You know? Looks like the latter, but it is difficult to tell.
>>>>
>>
>>Honestly, no clue! I would have to ask Terry to let me know. This was more of show and tell for me as I visited on behalf of kingsnake. Terry had the chance to show off all his animals! I personally prefer far easier to care for animals, but it was a very cool experience to get close to this species. He does have this one on display at Reptile Gardens in Rapid City South Dakota. Ill see if I can get him to swing over here and comment.
>>-----
>>Cindy Steinle
>>PHFaust
>>Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
>> Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

-----
T.J. Gould

taphillip Aug 04, 2010 10:54 PM

Hi Cindy,
Great Picture! The specimen is an Acrochordus javanicus. I have had him since 2002. I find them very easy to care for and don't experience any of the spotting that afflicts many. Personally, I find neglect to be very beneficial with these guys. They are not as delicate as some think but avoiding regular handling should be rather obvious. Kinda like handling a spiny gob-a-snot...

Very cool snakes though!

Cheers!
T-
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

deathstalker Aug 06, 2010 04:04 PM

Hello Terry,

I know Your response was to Cindy, but I felt like commenting, too.

Indeed, Acrochordus javanicus and A. arafurae have proven to be quite "easy" to care for in captivity, and my conclusion comes from stories and witnesses, and speaking first-hand with such owners. Also, having worked at Regal Reptiles in late '04 where an employee, Matt, kept his monstruous hypo (!) A. javanicus - it proved quite easy.

But there is a different story and some explanation as to why only a *select few* have successfully kept Acrochordus granulatus. Simply, they have been quite misunderstood for some time. Because they are considered a "brackish snake," most people were all up in the brackish hype. But the facts: they are found just as well in fresh, brackish, and salt water; generally in shallow/"stagnant" waters, but also in rivers and six (6!) miles out into the ocean. In captivity, though, they are stuck with what the owner gives them, and that means finding a 'balance' so to speak, in regards to the flow/current. But because dehydration occurs at an unknown salinity level, and the fact they have been proven to survive long-term in fresh water, they should be kept in fresh water, NO questions!

Frankly, though, I believe Acrochordus granulatus are proving easier than thought as well, and it the select few's goal to 'make it' so this species can some day be kept by the common 15-year-old herper.

I agree that leaving them alone to some degree is the best cure, and when it comes to "white spot fungus" in particular, daily near-100% water changes (= new, fresh, clean water) is the best medicine to get rid of the disease. Have I been able to prove this to myself? No; beause I was lucky enough to obtain an already-healthy specimen.

Anyway...to everybody:

The first key to keeping Acrochordus granulatus as easy as A. javanicus and A. arafurae is, again, to get away from the whole brackish thing; they have proven to survive long-term in fresh water. Secondly, keep the water shallow. My setup is up to 5.5" but which has three (naturalistic) hideouts, a bamboo tree, nice/big piece of driftwood bowing from back corner to back corner, and a lot of top vegetation = stuff for "Flaps", my snake's name is, to grasp onto *when possibly ambushing* and/or cornering prey. Thirdly and lastly for now--and very important!--is to keep the water temperature higher than "marine", and higher than for A. javanicus and A. arafurae: ~86-88, up to 95 if gradual and very brief, then brought down gradually so as to not shock the snake(s).

That is it for now.

Sincerely,
Timothy

>>Hi Cindy,
>>Great Picture! The specimen is an Acrochordus javanicus. I have had him since 2002. I find them very easy to care for and don't experience any of the spotting that afflicts many. Personally, I find neglect to be very beneficial with these guys. They are not as delicate as some think but avoiding regular handling should be rather obvious. Kinda like handling a spiny gob-a-snot...
>>
>>Very cool snakes though!
>>
>>Cheers!
>>T-
>>-----
>>It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!
>>
>>Terry Phillip
>>Curator of Reptiles
>>Black Hills Reptile Gardens
>>Rapid City, SD.
>>
>>www.reptilegardens.com

-----
T.J. Gould

taphillip Aug 06, 2010 10:09 PM

I would agree with the majority of what you said. I have also kept A. granulatus in the same manner, rather successfully. I do beleive the higher temps is also important...85 is my target temp. I don't do water changes at near your stated rate. I generally target 30-50% H2O change on a weekly schedule.

It would be nice to see these bred in captivity on a regular basis thats for sure.

Cheers!
T-
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens
Rapid City, SD.

www.reptilegardens.com

deathstalker Aug 07, 2010 12:11 AM

...ah, yes-yes, and becoming the first breeder would be my (distant) dream, ha! Chances are, someone else will get there first. But yes, like with any other species, establishing a (steady) captive-bred population would be prime! And, of course, it would decrease the need to import these gems which often suffer hypothermia en route overseas. ...leading to imminent death. As much as I love WC specimens of any herp, I don't believe in it...at least not on a mass-basis, and prolonged. Id est, not just for the particular concern of hypothermia with Acrochordus granulatus do I want to see a (steady) captive-bred population established, but also just so they don't have to caught. Period.

Yes, 85 is good. Regal Reptiles, where I happened to obtain Flaps from, has always kept theirs at 82. I would recommend this as the absolute lowest! And, again, up to 95 is fine. But I have been doing good at 86-88.

I don't believe I had actually stated how often I do water changes, and how much...? (I know I did in reference to healing "white spot fungus".) Yes or no, the implication of Your response happens to hit the nail on the head: I do perform them almost every day, and near-100% unless Flaps is in his right cave which becomes afloat when the water level drops below a certain point. This means having to take it out and re-sink it (-awkwardly, then repositioned of course), and this would of course be difficult with him in it...heh. Then, water changes are only ~60% or so. Anyway...

I perform water changes so often because I still haven't been able to complete the Bacteria Cycle - still in the ammonia (NH3) stage! But I recently (early July) realized it's due to lack of flow/circulation in the tank which is due to SO MUCH CRAP in there (LOL!) but which Flaps LOVES and makes use of it all. I was able to cure this for about a week via cleaning the filter better than previously (do so every 2-3 weeks - it's only a Zoo Med 318), and I got the NH3 down to ~0.25 one day!! Today, however, I will be setting up my old xP1 filter from my first try with Acrochordus granulatus back in September/October 2004 - this will cure the issue!

Robert, head of www.acrochordus.com, and I have been theorizing that, because the genus of Acrochordus don't actually breathe the water, despite their permeable skin, they may have some resistence to NH3 *which had hung around ~3-5 for nearly three (3) months, do note, and he has been eating and being normally active all along.* As well, he looks as beautiful as when I purchased him. But yes, they may have some resistence or be unaffected by NH3 and possibly nitrites (NO2). NOTE: My pH is usually around 6.4 by the way, and kH (carbonate hardness) around 2, but I use R.O. water, so it's the softest one can get.

NO conclusions regarding NH3 can be made just yet, though, but again, my NH3 has always been up there, and Flaps has been doing GREAT!!

Sincerely,
Timothy

>>I would agree with the majority of what you said. I have also kept A. granulatus in the same manner, rather successfully. I do beleive the higher temps is also important...85 is my target temp. I don't do water changes at near your stated rate. I generally target 30-50% H2O change on a weekly schedule.
>>
>>
>>It would be nice to see these bred in captivity on a regular basis thats for sure.
>>
>>Cheers!
>>T-
>>-----
>>It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!
>>
>>Terry Phillip
>>Curator of Reptiles
>>Black Hills Reptile Gardens
>>Rapid City, SD.
>>
>>www.reptilegardens.com

-----
T.J. Gould

Site Tools