Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Greetings All,

First I would like to state I am not in favor of hybrid snakes.

I am just enquiring out of curiosity, about 12 years ago Terry Wilkins here in Ohio crossed the two species on a breeding experiment, he produced babies. I am wondering what ever happened to those offspring?

Pic- Last year's YTC.

Truly,

Paul Bodnar
Crocodile Wildlife Conservationist

Paul, obviously you have no clue as to what you are talking about. It is a lie to say that I have ever crosssed an animal, let alone an indigo. I was contacted immediately when this message went up. I never participate in forums because of stupidity like this. The animal you have pictured is a yellow-tail, can't you tell the difference. I have over fifty pure breed indigos in my collection. All of my Texas Indigos came from wild caught stock. I do not have a single animal in my collection that was produced by another breeder in this country. I bought my first Texas Indigos from Don Hamper back in the 1970's, they had been collected by a very noteable zoo director. In the early 1970's I collected a number of additional animals myself.

I have collected all but three species of indigos. I would never allow an animal into my collection that I did not collect or breed because I know that most of the animals on the market are not pure bred animals and I will not buy from most breeders. I had two "Texas" animals from Brian Sharp that I later sold before ever breeding them. Currently, I have several litters of D.c. corais and D.c. melanurus for sale. I am sold out of D.c. cooperi and D.c. errebenus.

Paul, I presume your ignorance related to the crossing of D.c. errebenus and D.c. cooperi is related to the amount of red on my errebenus. A truely informed person who has seen literally dozens of these animals in the field and hundreds of these animals at wholesalers would understand that your average Texas Indigo from certain areas will have far more red on them than any Eastern Indigo. My first Texas Indigos cost me $15 apiece and they both dropped eggs the first night that I had them. At the time collectors where selling Texas Indigos to zoos for king cobra food.

Paul, your message is an insult and I cannot wait to see you again.

Greetings Terry,

I was asking this question ONLY in reference to several years (about ten) ago at a reptile show you had told people and myself you crossed the two. This was regarding a conversation with you about at the time, we were even talking about head scale counts. If the snakes were crossed, I was curios as to what ever happen to them.

It was by NO means an attack on you or your methods. I recall you had said you bred the two together. If I had misunderstood you then I apologized. But thank you for clarification.

That's all I was asking, nothing more, nothing less. Of course it's a Yellow Tail, I breed them.

The post was not intended to be offensive.

From reading Paul's post I really don't think he meant any harm but was just making an inquiry. Paul is a great guy that I've known a long time both personally and professionally, I have never seen Paul try to insult anyone and I doubt that he meant to insult you at all. In any event he did apologize in a lower post. One bad thing with both post and e-mails is that things are sometimes misinterpreted as to the actual meaning and knowing Paul as I do I sure he meant no insult of any kind....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Terry,

WTH?

Brian

Dont try to switch focus. What ever happened to the snakes? LOL. Just kidding. I too am not a fan of hybrids. But indigos make great pets. They surpass all other snakes except a king cobra. A hybrid would make a great pet and a smart snake. Much cooler than a jungle corn. I use to keep many species until I got into indigos. Now I only keep eastern and texas indigos and a couple of elapids. Anyway if they were crossbred would one need a permit??? Also it seems many easterns around today are born with kinks. I often wonder if hybrid is better than inbreed? Cheers to all.

Thought you might like this then. His name is Albert and he would like Indigo Snakes also But I like the few TX Indigo's I have so I've never introduced him...LOL

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

ALBERT?????

My friend Albert Killian gave him to me last Christmas so I named him Albert. Albert's a user friendly King but thanks to Randal Berry and Bobby Neal I almost got killed [or at least bitten] by Albert last weekend...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

....BIG AL......

>>Paul, obviously you have no clue as to what you are talking about. It is a lie to say that I have ever crosssed an animal, let alone an indigo. I was contacted immediately when this message went up. I never participate in forums because of stupidity like this. The animal you have pictured is a yellow-tail, can't you tell the difference. I have over fifty pure breed indigos in my collection. All of my Texas Indigos came from wild caught stock. I do not have a single animal in my collection that was produced by another breeder in this country. I bought my first Texas Indigos from Don Hamper back in the 1970's, they had been collected by a very noteable zoo director. In the early 1970's I collected a number of additional animals myself.
>>
>>I have collected all but three species of indigos. I would never allow an animal into my collection that I did not collect or breed because I know that most of the animals on the market are not pure bred animals and I will not buy from most breeders. I had two "Texas" animals from Brian Sharp that I later sold before ever breeding them. Currently, I have several litters of D.c. corais and D.c. melanurus for sale. I am sold out of D.c. cooperi and D.c. errebenus.
>>
>>Paul, I presume your ignorance related to the crossing of D.c. errebenus and D.c. cooperi is related to the amount of red on my errebenus. A truely informed person who has seen literally dozens of these animals in the field and hundreds of these animals at wholesalers would understand that your average Texas Indigo from certain areas will have far more red on them than any Eastern Indigo. My first Texas Indigos cost me $15 apiece and they both dropped eggs the first night that I had them. At the time collectors where selling Texas Indigos to zoos for king cobra food.
>>
>>Paul, your message is an insult and I cannot wait to see you again.

What do you mean when you say most of the animals on the market are not purebred?
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Jesus is Lord!

YEAH.....NOT PURE BRED?????....wadda mean????......which species????.....would eastern X texas indigos be governed by the same guidelines for commerce???.....or any eastern X with other drymarcon species????.......comments from appropiate depts???

BOB, I'VE CAUGHT AND SEEN A LOT OF ERREBENUS AND COUPERI AND IN MY OPINION THE DRYMARCHON FOLKS HAVE MAINTAINED THE PURIST GROUPS OF ANY SNAKES I'VE SEEN. My hat goes off to all of you Drymarchon guys for NOT mixing your stock as has been done in Boas etc. I'm a purist at heart and it does my heart good to know this. Brian Sharp has been a close friend longer than many of you have been alive. Hell we took a trip around the world together and I know that Brian would NOT sell any intergrade or hybrid without informing the buyer...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

what was that other guy chriping about????.....you took brian around the world????....wow!

Thanks Tom. I look forward to seeing you in Daytona next week.

Did you see where Assetto tried to twist your reference to our 1988 Malaysian trip into some sort of bizarre sex thing? I've known Bob for nearly 30 years and he still hasn't cleaned up his act! LOL

Brian

That's how he began hunting snakes by having his mind in the gutter. He lived so far in the wood's they didn't have gutter's just ditches and saw a dekay snake and mistook it for a phallic symbol and Bob the herper was born...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

hahahahaha.....yeah....and udell....harry bock....george whitfield.....et al....

Careful big boy, you're showing your age! LOL

forgot......george tudor.....art bass....joe berraducci.....louie porras.....bernie lavin....tom yarborough....aldo pistorria(fang & claw..in new york)....are john rindflesh & larry lantz still in country???

How about round 2! Ding ding ding!
Tom Yarborough was awesome! I saw him as a kid in central Alabama!!! We miss him.

I lived with Tom Yarbrough for about a year once when I was 19 years old..Mary Ann is very sick now and my prayers go out to her. I've talked to her a few times in the last couple of months..wellll...Dennie Sebolt, Warren Prince, Bill Chase, Bill Smith,Mike Salicus & Trudy Jerkins ..Tarpon Zoo,Ross Allen, Andy Koukoulos, Bill Gleason, Barney Tomberlin, Bill Minnick,Ray Singleton, Ray Folsom..Hermosa Reptiles, Jim Brocket, Tom Taylor...You know you guys can't keep up with me especially Bob A....LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

yes... i can.....just difficult to remember.....ray vannostril...barney tomberlin....mickey jacobson...otto locke...blase dinatale....jack loris....george tregumbo...

ALDO IS A BRIDGE TENDER HERE IN MIAMI...Randy Maccranie, Ed Chapman, I could go on and on...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I can't leave out my favorite WEATHERMAN Simon Campden-Main...What about Bill Thacker?..All of these names are of people I personally knew and a few were my mentors like Tom Yarbrough, Ross Allen, and Dennie Seabolt [the BEST VENOMOUS SNAKE-HANDLER OF THEM ALL]. I had my wedding reception at Snake-a-torium in Panama City Beach, Fl...LOL...1971 was the year
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I've got one for you guys, and it is relevant to Drys.

I got my first Eastern Indigo from Ray Singleton, who was out of the Tampa area. As Tom will tell you, back at that time domestic snakes were generally sold by the foot and Ray's price for Easterns was a whopping $7 a foot! For $49 and a couple of bucks for postage Ray mailed me a gorgeous, 7 foot red-throated male, bagged and in an uninsulated cardboard box that was so small that I don't think the snake had room to stick out it's tongue. I was a sophomore in high school, the year...1962. I kept that snake through high school and college, and he eventually died I believe of old age.

Given Tom's advanced age, he may be the only one around able to recall such things!

Brian

But where are the hybrids??? Would someone please fess up gosh darn it. I want one. Just kidding lol this thread is just getting funny.

what are you talking about?????.......art meyers....AND DON'T NOBODY GET UPSET.....DARE I????......WAS IT ...BOB STEVENS???....ATLANTA WILDLIFE EXCHANGE???......

I REMEMBER HIM....LOL..HE SENT ME 4 WOOD TURTLES THAT AT FIRST COST ME $100 AND LATER COST ME $5,000..Peter lyndsey got the shaft then...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

wow....i remember singleton.....what was his place called????.....i got a pair of indigos....same deal!!!!!....ross allen....

Yes, Mr. "THE ONLY PERSON I KNOW OLDER THAN ME BRIAN" I do remember Ray and he did that even through the 80's. He was one of 2 people I knew that actually were killed by a Reticulated Python and then revived!
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

See you started a thread that turned into me being abused by my lifelong friends Brian and Bob and then you leave the building...What's up with that?....LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hi Tom,

Sorry about that...lol, I have been breaking my back moving six foot Vision cages all day to accomodate the new Mexican Redtail Cribo, then feeding Indian Pythons, Crocodiles, and nearly every other animal one could think of

I also have been networking, I will email you off list with some good Drymarchon information....

Truly,

Paul Bodnar
Crocodile Wildlife Conservationist

me and brian.....we'd like some dry news too.....dick flood....the clamp boyz.....dick vecinier(la place, la)....the east bay vivarium guy.....

It was Dan VicNair , you know near Gus White in Slidell...going toward Mobile then Gordon Duda..Tony Picheo [Pensacola Reptile Gardens]...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

'bout....ernie troop.....and DASNAKE KING of brownsville???.....what a blast this has been!!!!!!.....dave hewitt.....????....joe tesca at new braunsfells....and MARIO!!!!!....richard leakey....

Tom does the name Jim Watt ring any bells?

Of course, he was just here at the farm 2 weeks ago...He's NOT in the old, old category we're in....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

He is the guy that got me into the snakes back in 1980, he used to pull into my hood with his red VW bug and his trunk would be full of kings and ratsnakes and all the hot stuff too. someone said he has a turtle farm on the lake, know the name by chance? he's one hairy sob huh?.

WAY BACK IN THE DAY I KICKED HIS A#$ IN MY HOUSE BUT HE AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN GOOD FRIENDS AND WE STILL ARE. AS I SAID HE WAS JUST HERE 2 WEEKS AGO. JIM USED TO HAVE A HUGE TURTLE FARM NEAR THE LAKE...He is a very "hirsute human" however but a darn good field collector. This fall he and I are taking off for a long weekend collecting and I can't think of anyone I'd rather go with...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I once witnessed a 20" scarlet king circumnavigate his torso at chest level...Tell him Joe Bernardo from Sarasota said hey, and that I found 42 scarlet kings last season.

Hey, let's not bog down the forum with messy details, such as the fact that I'm slightly older than you! LOL

Oh yea...the snake king in Brownsville Tx...that is where I use to get all of my Texas indigos from to breed with my easterns.

Dan

HAHAHA.....WELL PLAYED....

His name was Manny "something and he sold the Indigo's and Beaded Lizards by the pound!!!
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Finaly! Now we are getting somewhere. Where are the freakin hybrids. LOL

All right...finally some action on the Indigo forum!! All you old farts forgot about the most obvious...Ross Allen...got my first indigo for $5.00!!! Had ordered a pine snake...but since he did not have one (wow not a surprise from what I know now)if he could substitute a indigo for it. Also...don't forget the Thompson Zoo!!! Darn...I'm as ancient as you guys are!!lol

Dan

Man, that brought back memories. Thompson Wild Animal Farm, Clewiston, FL. They used to advertise in "Field and Stream" and "Boys Life". I used to literally wear out their price list (cost 15 cents) as a kid. I bought gopher tortoises and box turtles from them for $2.00/each back in the mid 1960's. Shipped in a small cardboard box via US mail. The highlight of my year was receiving a package from Thompson Wild Animal Farm. They sold snakes by the foot. Damn, but those memories must be hard-wired!

I managed to stop by old man Thompson's place a few times while collecting around Okeechobee, and the place was a trip. He sold Racoons and Opossums, and people who owned a Chinese restaurant used to come by on a regular basis and buy his larger turtles for soup and God knows what. He used to keep recently caught red rats and yellow rats in a big foot locker just inside the screened porch in that old shack of his. One visit I saw no fewer than 40 corns and yellows in that trunk. We'd just reach in with both hands and dig through them to look for the best ones.

Tom, wasn't he eventually robbed and murdered at his place?

was told it was some of his ex-wives.......he aways had a pt bottle of some hard core whiskey in his back pocket....

Yes he was murdered by an illegal alien farm worker with a machete. Why did he have newspaper covering his floors of his house?
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

george tregumbo at the totum inn zoo on rt 420 outside of carolina beach sold h2o snakes by the lb!!!!!!!!.....there was an elephant out front that you could feed stale loaves of bread to.....it would grab cameras offa tourists and step on them(the cameras)......we used to sit there drink beer and watch....

wow.....old man thompson in clewston.....he was murdered....throat slit.....he sold me a bobcat for $50....drve it back to philly in the back of a vw van(in a wooden crate).......what great daze....sold the kat to jack loris.....

Let's add Attila Beck and Heward Clamp even though their alive...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

wow.....good ones....mike bishop...earl turner

Tony Granez, Pat Burchfield, Leon Leopard..George McDuffie..These are hard to top..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

ross allen was mentioned....but we did DIS old man thompson.....our bad

wow, I am confused whether I just read through a good old fasion pissing contest with the intentions of killing each other next time you make eye contact...or if this was the internet version of a round of beers and a hand shake.

Either way, I would be happy to buy that round of beers to anyone going to the Tinley Park show so I can hear more of these stories in person.

It turned into a "Texan" discussion from us people on the "Eastern" coast....lol

No hidden subliminal message in that sentence.

I think I have rattled enough chains for the week!

shots of jack daniels and beer chasers...in some strip bar....

I didn't see Ross's name till after I posted...but another ccharacter I didn't see was the famous eccentric Arthur Jones...of Wild Cargo. Since I'm not an alcohol drinker I guess I'll just chase down the stories with tea!!! George Trejembo of Totem zoo use to get some of largest eastern diamonbacks backs I have seen. While they weren't more then four to five feet long, they were huge in girth.

Dan

He got those from Heward Clamp...the EDB'S I mean
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

don't forget teddy clamp

I ALWAYS INSULT BRIAN AND BOB WHENEVER POSSIBLE...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

I included Ross as he was one of my 3 mentors...Remember Red Turner who moved stuff around for Ross....I inluded Andy K. and Bill Gleason who ran the venom lab also in another post..
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

SHEFFIELD EDWARDS.......member him???

Talked to him about 2 months ago. I first met him in South Bay, Fl just south of Clewiston on old hiway 27...thanks..Jim Oliver. he gave me my first Wood Turtle in the 1970's after he retired from the Bronx Zoo...Roy Pinny[sp?], Bob Zappalorti, Marty Koopersmith, Stevie Winkslbaum, Jeffry Blaufarb...etc..C'mon now I'm doin 3 for 1
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

WINKLESBAUM!!!!!!!......i once rode in the back of his car from baltimore to long island with two spider monkeys!!!!!!!.....and at some herp meeting he had this realistic human skull ....he was passing off as carl kauffield's skull!!!!!

RUDY KOMARCHECK.......THE COBRA KING!!!!!....louie pistoia...

Rudy was still consorting with hookers and young girls [18-25 years old] until he died of a heart attack in Daytona Bch, FL ABOUT 4 YEARS AGO...RIP Rudy...he was in his mid 80's
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

haha.....yeah ...he was.......is ed nagelmeyer out there?????...and where is HANK MOLT?????......

Ed's in N.M. and I talk to him every week on line. Hank is Hank and last I heard he had serious health problems and lived in Ohio...Coming to Daytona?....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Hank lives near Columbus Ohio, he comes up to visit every two months or so, and we generally go to places around Cleveland with Ed Celebucki,Hank has recovered better than expected and is doing very well.

Truly,

Paul Bodnar
Crocodile Wildlife Conservationist

ED CELEBUCKI!!!!!.......i remember when he got those monkeytail skinks from hank.....when hank had his shop under buzz's aquarium in hatboro.....hank sent hugh kelly to solomon islands.....hugh still ain't recovered from that excursion...he lives right here.....

Yeah, Hank and Hughie had that shop in Horsham, PA that I went to a few times back in the day. When he knew I was coming up, Hank would put my name on masking tape on a couple of aquariums with Diamond pythons in them as some sort of inducement for me to buy them, which I never did. That was back in the time when most Diamonds were hatched over international airspace! LOL

Is Horsham near you, Bob?

Well, just finished packing, time to sign off. We hit the road at 5:00 A.M. tomorrow for Daytona.

Jim Coffee of Cincinatti. Who was the founder of the Philadelphia Reptile Exchange? Was that Hank Molt? You could get almost anything from them back in the 60's. They always had a good supply of New Jersey Pine snakes!!!!

Jim Needham and Bob Baysinger were 2 more budding Ohio herpers. Geoff Shrock went to Haiti with me my first trip in 1973..He was a Detroit cop x slum lord back in the day. I saw Geoff 2 years ago and he's in the best shape I've ever seen him in...thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

spent a week with bob aysinger at the okeetee once....a long time ago.....yea horsham is close......brian , i met you and grea there once and went back to my place....hows my girl???

Frankie Weed
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

You talking about Jr, or Sr???

ECTimaeus

Why is nobody remembering Bill Haast??? He has got to be the oldest one out there.

Also this seems to be an east coast thing going on here. The only reference to west coast was East Bay Vivarium. They came along much later than Hermosa Beach Reptiles. There were also a few more from southern CA that did a lot with desert critters.

ECTimaeus

The reason the west coast peole weren't mentions is because snakes fall in your lap out west....in the east you actually have to hunt them. JUST KIDDING!!!!
Dan

Terry, I too have to ask WTF? Paul's post was pretty innocuous after all. And I remember a couple years ago when I sent a customer your way you proceeded to trash me to him behind my back. What's up with you lately, I thought we were friends?
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Breeder of:
Green Tree Pythons
Pastel, Pinstripe, FIRE, Piebald, Clown, Lavender Albino, Leucistic, and Spider Ball Pythons
Striped Colombian Boa Constrictors
Kenyan, Rufescens, and Conicus Sand Boas
Red Phase Western Hognose Snakes
Spider Western Hognose Snakes
Albino Western Hognose Snakes
Locality Trans-Pecos Mexican Hognose Snakes
Southern Hognose Snakes
Eastern Hognose Snakes
Tricolor Hognose Snakes
Hypo Checkered Garter Snakes
Eastern Blackneck Garter Snakes
Stillwater Hypo Bullsnakes
Patternless Bullsnakes
S. GA Eastern Kingsnakes
Locality Desert Kingsnakes
Albino Desert Kingsnakes
Hypo Desert Kingsnakes
Mexican Black Kingsnakes
Desert Phase and Striped Desert California Kingsnakes
Locality Mexican Milksnakes
Spotted Mexican Milksnakes
Tangerine Mexican Milksnakes
Locality Alterna
Abbott Okeetee Cornsnakes
Mexican Baird's Ratsnakes
Cape Housesnakes
Tangerine Albino African Fat -Tailed Geckos
Locality Spotted Turtles

I am not suprised that this lengthy thread features the absence of Felice and the people involved with his little "project". Any thoughts Fuller? It's still a mystery where the Uni-Eastern crosses you had ended up.