Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I placed a four and a half foot Ball Python in with my 5 foot Dumerils during cage moving. A bit later, I came in to find the Dumerils had squeezed the Ball to death. I removed the Ball in an effort to salvage it. The ball pythons neck area was clearly broken. Upon placing the ball back into the tank, the Dumerils proceeded to constrict the dead Ball again and a short time later consumed it.
I've never read anything on Dumerils eating other snakes.
Thank you.

Skin & Scales

It's usually a bad idea to house snakes from different species together, and in general it's best to house snakes in their own enclosure.

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Paul D

www.MoonlightBoas.com

I simply can not believe you took the dead ball python out of the cage, then put it back in and allowed your Dumerils to eat it. Unbelievable!!! Yes, Dumerils have been known to eat snakes, including other Dumerils. Yes, it is pretty common knowledge that keeping snakes together, especially different species, is a bad idea. YES, snakes have eaten snakes of similar size and DIED as a result. I can not believe you let your 5' Dumerils eat a 4 1/2' Ball python. I really hope your Dumerils does not die as a result of this.

Hello ~ Thanks for your replies. It was unlikely in my mind with the types of snakes I was working with (primary warm blooded animal feeders) that cannibalism was an option, given such a short period of time together. As far as swapping out animals during cage cleaning and cage moving, it's been known to happen - especially under circumstances regarding Boas and Pythons. I've been beside some of the finest breeders & distributers in the country and they all do the same thing, as long as the species are supportive (in this case the Dumerils comes across as such a passive species, I never would have imagined).
As far as i'm concerned, I have a "scientific" attachment to my animals (not anthropomorphic) and if this is a way that I will gain knowledge on the current topic, (losing the Ball Python to another species to identify cannibalism or losing the Dumerils after it had swallowed something too large), then so be it, i'm ok with that. It's all in the name of science (the foundation of the herpetological world was built on this exact thing) and it just set the foundation for my next article (which should prove to educate many like myself that never would have thought).
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your criticism and recognize it, but please, understand where i'm coming from as well.
Oh, by the way, the Ball Python was regurgitated (as I expected) within an hour after being swallowed. I washed it off and it is going to be skinned and tanned. The rest of the snake will be used to teach anatomy. The Dumerils is fine today. The entire event was really quite amazing and I do have other photos as well, if you are interested.
Thanks.
Skin & Scales

Your reasoning that you have been beside other breeders that practice poor husbandry as your defense for practicing poor husbandry is ridiculous. The fact that you are perfectly okay with potentially killing your animals intentionally, in the name of science, makes me sick. Are you a scientist? Where can I find your scientific papers? Killing animals and then writing a paper does not make you a scientist. In your reasoning, if poor husbandry results in death, it's okay because you learned something. However, if you did a little research to begin with, all these questions have been answered, so you are just killing animals out of ignorance. Paint it however you want, give me whatever line of BS you choose. I'm not fooled by it and definitely not impressed by it. You might as well go stick your tongue in a light socket and then write a paper about it. The results are known, but if you failed to find the information before hand, I guess it will make a great paper.

OMG! haha You have GOT to find something better to do with your time, than to sit here on the forums (like you apparantly do all day every day, judging by a quick once over of older threads). Dry your tear's and re-read what I have written. Stop trying to twist it around to be something it is not. It was an unfortunate accident, but i'm not going to lose sleep over something such as this.
Good lord, don't go to any of the Trade shows you're likely to have a heart seizure.
My latest American article can be found in the October issue of REPTILES (currently in stores now), it's the cover story on the Natural History, Keeping and Breeding of the Plumed Basilisk.
I won't be reading further any of your future posts on this topic, although i'm sure you'll be making them regardless lol
Skin & Scales

Dry my tears? Do you think because I find what you did to be ignorant that I'm a bleeding heart? I'm certified and will happily come euthanize all your animals right now. I think they'd be better off anyway. Death does not bother me, your ignorance and arrogant attitude is what bothers me. The only thing similar at a trade show is the amount of people you can find that are also full of crap. The accident was when the Ball was killed. The ignorance completely went into overdrive when you took it out of the cage, then put it back in. WTF? You say it regurged as you expected. Then why in the world did you allow the animal to eat it? That's where you start to annoy me personally. Then you claim it's for science, the foundation of herpetology. That's when I think....GIVE ME A BREAK! So, where are your SCIENTIFIC PAPERS? Because the Reptiles articles are not held to any real scrutiny and some of them are fairly lousy. Is this "accident" going to be your next article? Because most people know that you don't do this. As great as you are, you'd think you would've already known this as well. I'm far from on here everyday. While you're trying to evaluate me, check the dates and times I make my posts generally. In regards to this thread, I'd say it looks like you're keeping right up with me. So, insult me for being "active" in the forum? Gee, that hurts, lol. Please stop replying to me because then I can stop replying to you. I'm not going to say "I'm done" insert BS reason here. I'll keep going as long as you want to try to convince me this makes you a good keeper or the norm in this hobby. Toss an insult my way, I'll reply. Say you'll see me in person sometime, and I'll see if I can be at whatever show you want to imply you're going to give me a beat down at. I've been around a long time too, and I've seen and heard all this stuff before. I think what you did was ignorant and you're not going to change my mind.

I know I'm late to the party guys.

For what it's worth, I AM a scientist. Nobody here has heard from me for the most part for the last couple of years because I am a graduate student in Animal Sciences, and these studies have a way of consuming your life. I study well-being, immune physiology, and stress physiology. My field of Animal Sciences is largely concerned with studying domesticated species (particularly livestock animals) and how to best improve the nutrition, reproduction, and overall productivity and well-being, but there are no actual limits to the species we study and work with.

Unfortunately, due to personal reasons, I am going to have to put graduate studies aside for the time being. Honestly, that is not something you need to know about me, but I feel the need to clarify that I have studied these topics in great detail, but I am not yet published and probably won't be for several years.

PBM, your criticisms here are spot-on!

tektum, your claims at a scientific approach here are unfounded and disturbing. Writing an article for Reptiles magazine does mean you have been published as an author, but certainly not as a scientist! PBM specifically asked you about your scientific credentials, one of which would be having a peer-reviewed scientific journal article published.

Scientists who do research with animals still must have a concern for their subjects' well-being!! Scientists are not emotionless creatures who are unfazed by animal death. A scientific approach means that you do not base your decisions upon your emotions. It does not mean you cannot have emotions or emotional attachments to animals. A scientific approach to animal research or husbandry must include several questions of what is best for the animal. There will be several instances in which a question is raised that we cannot outright know the answer to, so we have to consider our options before moving forward.

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3.2 Amazon Tree Boas
1.2 Duméril's Boas
1.0 Boa constrictor imperator
2.6 Ball Pythons

0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (45lb darling lap dogs: Brandy & Mara)

Where you failed your animals tektum, was first as PBM pointed out, in not doing your research about these species. There are, sadly, numerous accounts of Dumeril's boas consuming Ball pythons, as well as other Dumeril's boas. Just because a particular species is passive in its interactions with you doesn't mean it will be passive in its interactions with other animals, which is why it is considered so completely uncouth to house different species of animals together, even temporarily. If this was truly done for cleaning, why would you not have put the Ball python into a rubbermaid container, or even a bag?

Whether you claim to be a devoted - though emotionless - herpetoculturist, or a misplaced "scientist," your initial decision making process here is disturbing. Further, that upon discovering the Ball python was dead, that you apparently had no feelings for it, and just put the animal's body back in with the Dum, as PBM pointed out shows a complete lack of regard for the Dum's health and well-being. It would be much more accurate if you called your approach an exploratory "I wonder what will happen next," rather than science.

Science requires a lot of thought. Before and after any actions are taken. We have to evaluate what we see and try to understand it between the things we already know and the things we don't know. The only way to accurately do this is to constantly read and research any of the available materials on the subject.

tektum, I find your approach to your animals as you have described it to be disturbingly callous. I won't assume that I know everything about you or your animals, but everything that you have written here paints a picture, and it reflects very poorly on reptile keepers. This is NOT who we are!

Making decisions based upon observable facts and previously acquired information rather than emotion is scientific. Not having any emotions about animal death (that you have caused) borders on psychopathic.

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3.2 Amazon Tree Boas
1.2 Duméril's Boas
1.0 Boa constrictor imperator
2.6 Ball Pythons

0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (45lb darling lap dogs: Brandy & Mara)

That has to be one of the best written posts I have ever read on these forums. I hope you're able to return to your studies as soon as possible. I think you'll make a wonderful addition to the scientific community. You are definitely well spoken and very professional in your approach.

I'm not sure what everyone's point here. If this guy decided to feed his Dumerils boa a ball python intentially, would any of this matter. Apparently he was unaware that Acrantophis eat other snakes. Now he knows, accidentally. He lost a ball python instead of a rat. His husbandry wasn't bad, he was just unaware that the ball python was a potential food item. His point seems to be that he had no atttachment to the ball python, and when the boa ate it, he suffered no emothional loss. Instead he just happened to feed his boa a ball python.

And come on, if Acrantophis include snakes in their diet, then a Dumeril's boa eating a ball python will have no ill effects on the boa. They evolved to eat snakes. Its just another food item.

Nodum ~ Thank you for taking a logical glance at my post, it's nice to see someone that can actually understand what they are reading.
Amerilrose ~ get some life experience and then you can criticize.
I'm sure you probably have names for each of your "pet" snakes and feel sad at the departure of one of your beloved babies, but you are only placing human emotions on your animals in an effort to justify your own fears and lack of understanding, it's your psychological way of making them "safe" ~ on a sub-conscious level of course. Unfortunately, it's what will always set you apart from the scientific community. Time to grow up.
Skin & Scales

Let's see your credentials Mr. Science. She has some background, what do you have or do? Kill snakes? That would make a lot of teenagers scientists. Oh, you have to kill without emotion. That's the scientific community? Generally animal deaths being scientifically studied are for the greater good, yes? What in the world did you discover or prove? They are already known to kill and eat other snakes. So, you proved it would eat and regurge your specific animal? Impressive!!!!!! I want to know all about your degrees, and I would love to read your scientific papers, articles, journals, whatever you have for me to read. That would be great.

Great defense. They will also eat rabbits. Should I feed my 4' dumerils a 10 pound rabbit? The point is within the thread, apparently you don't see it, so what's the point. If you want answers to your questions, read the thread. Basically an error was made, oops! Ignorance is bliss! Then he fed a 4' snake to a 4' snake....ridiculous. If you want to feed balls to your dumerils, feel free. Size them accordingly thanks! He did mention it regurged....see the problem? It was too big. It's all there, have a good read.

Well gosh, you're just too darned smart for me.

(Although several species of ophiphagus snakes are known to occasionally consume snakes longer than they are.)

Well, atleast you admit it!

(I can be a smart ass too)

Can we get any more retarded. DO NOT mix snake species of any type.
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 3 burmese pythons, 1 albino tiger reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 13 bearded dragons, 6 leopard geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

It's all good, it's going to be the basis of a new paper!

COOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!!!!!!!
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 3 burmese pythons, 1 albino tiger reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 13 bearded dragons, 6 leopard geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

Anecdotal studies are not acceptable statistical models. Sorry sir, this is not SCIENCE.
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Teresa
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3.0 Dogs (2.0 Chihuahuas, 1.0 Toy Poodle)
1.5 Cats
1.0 Cockatiel
1.0 Indonesian Blue tongue skink

Ball Pythons
0.1 100% Het Albino (Watson)
1.0 Pastel (Sweets)
0.1 Spider (Daisy)
1.0 Albino (Gormagon)
1.0 Lesser (Wendell)

I will not really argue the ethics of this situation...all I will say is that for an "experienced" keeper and author, that was an amateur mistake.
By the way, I enjoyed your article on REPTILES mag.
-Doc Carlos