Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was asked in an earlier post to post some closer-up head shots showing the scalation. I traded for these as being Acrantophis but was told by some they could be Dumerils. I have a great document that shows head-to-head scalation differences and it states "its impossible to tell the difference between the two based solely on dorsal/lateral markings" and that the head scalation is the definitive determining factor. Based upon these pics what do you all think?
Bill

I agree about the pattern, and from the previous pics, I just couldn't tell, so didn't want to even guess. From those head shots, they look like Mad. Grounds IMO. By no means a Mad. ground boa expert though.

Thanks! This has been an interesting and enlightening journey to say the least. All I'm asking for is opinions such as yours! I don't want to go into breeding them and misrepresenting what in fact they really are is all! I appreciate you taking the time to reply!

Bill

I would have to say these aren't Mad ground boas. In madagascarensis, the large scales on the head go all the way back to above the eyes, like a coluberid. These animals just have a few large scales around the nose. I've seen a few other animals like these being called Mad ground boas, but have felt the need to question it too. Some have even been very large like a mad ground. I don't know, but maybe madagascarensis and dumerali have been crossed at some point and these are the resulting animals?

I have heard rumors of Madagascar Ground Boas (Boa madagascariensis previously Acrantophis madagascariensis) being hybridized with Dumeril's Boas (Boa dumerili previously Acrantophis dumerili). I don't know what those animals would look like, but I think I wouldn't be shocked if that is what you have here.

~Rebecca
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3.2 Amazon Tree Boas
1.2 Duméril's Boas
1.0 Boa constrictor imperator
2.6 Ball Pythons

0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (45lb darling lap dogs: Brandy & Mara)

Actually, Vences et al restored Acrantophis and Sanzinia in 2001. So Acrantophis madagascariensis and Acrantophis dumerili are again the correct names.

I say Dumerils Boa.
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Pat Higdon
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boas, 1 albino burmese python, 1 possible double het for caramel/albino reticulated python, 1 lavender albino tiger reticulated python, 3 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 1 prairie kingsnake 13 bearded dragons, 4 leopard geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

Well, I've gotten independent appraisals from the Curators of Reptiles from two different zoos that have decent groups of both and both gentlemen have assured me they are in fact Ground Boas. I would list the entities but need their permission first.

I realize anyone can "say" this in a post but I won't insult their integrity by overtly referring to them by name w/out their permission.

Key thing to keep in mind is that these two are completely unrelated to any bloodlines currently in the US. The limited breeders over the last 20 years have resulted in all animals in the States manifesting the same dominant phenotypes...lack of dorsal "crossovers", the strong dorsal striping..its actually kind of interesting when one digs and researches like I have..the uniformity of appearance in domestic Ground Boas is striking. "In situ" pics of wild Ground Boas in Madagascar show the types of pattern variability one would expect in wild populations. The head scalation is the one true constant.

I'll breed them and hopefully we all can carry this conversation on anew once we all get to see how they turn out!

Bill

Billy, please specify which you mean. Both species in question are "Ground Boas." If that's as far as the curators were willing to say, they may have been hedging their bets (and using some tongue-in-cheek humor).

So, Dumeril's Ground Boas, or Madagascar Ground Boas? We can safely rule out Sanzinia
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3.2 Amazon Tree Boas
1.2 Duméril's Boas
1.0 Boa constrictor imperator
2.6 Ball Pythons

0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (45lb darling lap dogs: Brandy & Mara)

Sorry about that! Based upon head scalation (scale count, scale patterning, and scale sizes), these two unbiased men assured me they are Mad. Ground Boas and not Dumerils. Regardless, they're very cool and I'm REALLY interested to see what their progeny look like.

Bill

After doin some more photo comparisons, I agree that they are MGB's. The original pics you posted before the headshots looked very much like Dums.

The vast majority of the MBG's that I have seen do not have that much dorsal patterning. They could possibly be a MGB/Dum cross. Dums & MGB's are easy to get confused, the head scalation is the biggest key tellin the two apart.
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Pat Higdon - Higdons Herps, Tuttle, Oklahoma USA
Oklahoma City Herpetological Society Member
4 dumerils boas, 1 bci boa, 3 burmese pythons, 1 albino tiger reticulated python, 2 ball pythons, 1 borneo python, 13 bearded dragons, 6 leopard geckos & 1 sulcata tortoise

Thanks Pat! This has been a long and crazy research process let me tell ya'.LOL I just started cooling them and hope they go this season..will be their first. It will certainly be interesting to see how the offspring turn out.

Bill