Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For those that doubted it's "whiteness" here it is a little older, cleaner (no afterbirth like the first pic had) and much larger. This thing is solid WHITE! Huge congrats to Gulf Coast Reptiles for putting in the work to produce such an awesome animal.

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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I'm not so sure there were many doubters, the general consensus was that people didn't like the secrecy of it all. It's not like people could clone their Lucy just because they gave out too much background info.

Personally, I would love to hear more about the projects. I'd love to hear more about the co-dom morph that produces these Lucies. I'd ABSOLUTELY LOVE to see a photo of the litter and parents.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

I understand what you are saying, but if you know anything about Chris and Sheila is that they like to have all facts 100% known without any doubt before they let everything out of the bag. This litter came from a first year breeding female that threw a very little litter. There may be another shot at producing another litter from the father of this litter to another one of his daughters so we will see if she gives a litter soon hopefully. Chris was just so excited with this lucy and thought everyone would like to see it as much as he was.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I feel differently. I do not think there is a need to let all of the details regarding the project out of the bag too soon. Its awesome that they released a picture of it and I hope they continue to allow pictures of it to be posted as it matures. Once they know it is a heritable trait, then they should tell more. Otherwise, every amazon freak and his granny will be looking for the het form to start producing their own. If I produced it, th first time I would release pictures of the parents would be when I had produced multiple lucies and hets for sale. Why potentially crash your market?

Once again, great animal. I had the pleasure to talk with Chris and Sheila at Daytona and they were so enthused about their amazon projects.
Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

>>If I produced it, th first time I would release pictures of the parents would be when I had produced multiple lucies and hets for sale. Why potentially crash your market?
>>

Yeah, I guess it is all about the money to some people but for me, (someone who eats, sleeps, & breathes Amazon Tree Boas) I crave information, details, and photos....
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

So,
Based on that statement, I assume you will be sellign any tiger amazons you let go for what??? a hundred bucks?

This has nothing to do with money but it has lots to do with maintaining a project.

Also, what about this reptile business is not money related?

One moer thing. Remember that when I started breeding amazons, you could hardly give them away. Even the solid reds/yellows, etc. Thats one of the reasons I had such a large group, and one reason that enabled me to breed these through F4 generation.

Don't get me wrong, I can't wait to see what produced this beauty, but I am happy to wait to allow the project to get established.
Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

If this is a super form then showing the rest of the litter does nothing but show the co-dom morph. The only thing that people have not liked is that it was "released" as the super form of some co-doms but no co-doms were shown or known of for these. One single random lucy could be a freak occurrence that is not able to be duplicated. They are basically claiming to have a co-dom that was never released to the hobby and that in turn bred to produce this super form. Not saying it is not possible but why not show em?? I like my amazons in all colors and shades with gardens being right up there with reds in my book so a lucy is not that sexy to me, I am just curious to see the other forms. In fact I look at the lucy as something bad for amazons because it will draw in the money guys that I would rather not see involved in ATB's.

Jason

>>I look at the lucy as something bad for amazons because it will draw in the money guys that I would rather not see involved in ATB's.
>>

AMEN Jason!
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

I think with the introduction of the Tiger, Leopard, etc, money was brought into the equation with Amazons. its only in the last 5 years that I have been seeing Amazons at $1000 or more. When I first produced solid reds, yellows, etc, in the late 90's, I could not get $150 for them. Now, money was not an issue for me. I bred amazons for the love of breeding them. I ended up keeping so many that I produced for that very reason.
Now, we cannot say that money is not an issue for someone who breeds reptiles for a living. In that case, I see no reason why a person should not reveal all of the details of a new project before it is released for sale.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

There are already several morphs and "lines" that are sold for thousands of dollars but nobody is telling Mike and Matt to not produce or show-off their babies are we? If you think the addition of one more morph is going to bring in the "money" guys you are greatly mistaken. ATB's can't be produced in the numbers in such small cages that the "money" snakes can. Any tree boa or python is kept by those that love them for the love of that animal and that will never change. There is no huge rush of people breeding amazon basins is there? There is no huge group of people breeding Canary Chondros is there? I can't believe the comments being made when Chris and Sheila wanted to share their excitement with others that "should" be excited to see another awesome mutation of these beautiful tree boas.

P.S. for those that don't know Chris he has some ATB's and Chondro's that he has had for over 20 years as pets so he's not just getting into them for the "money".
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Excellent response Josh.
Thanks for posting such a great animal. Please keep it up.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I know they have been working with ATBs a long long time and have quite a collection. Bill & Kathy are going to see if Bill and take some pics of GCR's snakes for the ATB book Kathy and I are writing.

>>There are already several morphs and "lines" that are sold for thousands of dollars but nobody is telling Mike and Matt to not produce or show-off their babies are we? If you think the addition of one more morph is going to bring in the "money" guys you are greatly mistaken. ATB's can't be produced in the numbers in such small cages that the "money" snakes can. Any tree boa or python is kept by those that love them for the love of that animal and that will never change. There is no huge rush of people breeding amazon basins is there? There is no huge group of people breeding Canary Chondros is there? I can't believe the comments being made when Chris and Sheila wanted to share their excitement with others that "should" be excited to see another awesome mutation of these beautiful tree boas.
>>
>>P.S. for those that don't know Chris he has some ATB's and Chondro's that he has had for over 20 years as pets so he's not just getting into them for the "money".
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>>Josh & Krysty Hutto
>>
>>
>>Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.
>>
>>
>>a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

First off I want to Congratulate Chris and Sheila they must really be excited!!!
Also thanks for sharing this photo as they didn't have to do that!!

What I think is the issue here is not so much of them keeping it secretive but the claims they have made about the co-dom calico line and proven Hypo line. Now I'm not so much concerned about their calico line because they haven't been put on the market yet. Although I'm definitely wanting to know more for my own interests about this proven morph with pics, and info because I love amazons and would love to know more about their projects. My problem or issue rather is selling a morph as proven with their hypo line with little to no info about it. People have inquired about this and have not received any viable info that will prove such a morph, due to conflicting info and the lack of info. Again it's their business and animals and I only want to know more because of my interest in amazons. Regardless of everything they really do have fine animals and I wish they would share more but they don't have to if they don't want too. Others have now been listing hypo's for sale in the classifieds and that is where I see problems arising without facts!

The comment about requiring Matt and Mike to come forward about the Tiger morph is irrelevant because all the info is out there ever since the first litter of Tigers were born at Urban Jungles. So that statement does not hold water because it is just the opposite of this situation regarding the Lucy or any other morph they have called proven. If you need links about the Tiger Morph and how it was proven let me know. Matt Lerer had it on his website but now his website is under construction but you can also go to Urban Jungles Danny Mendez's site and it talks about the Tiger morph.

Anyway I think it would be great for them to share the info when they are ready and would love to see more pics. Again Congratulations to Gulf Coast it sure is a one of a kind amazon!!!
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Charles Koutris

Great post Charles!

>> Others have now been listing hypo's for sale in the classifieds and that is where I see problems arising without facts!

Exacta-mundo my friend!

Congratulations to Chris and Sheila. I find the way they are being treated on this and another forum totally disgusting and it smacks of jealousy.

I completely agree. Jealousy really does shine through here.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

>>Congratulations to Chris and Sheila. I find the way they are being treated on this and another forum totally disgusting and it smacks of jealousy.

I really don't see how you can say those postings are jealousy? We're hungry for more info. (well, okay, maybe one or two people are just being negative)

Please, read Charles' comment right above yours. That is exactly how I feel.

I love amazons, I'm personally very excited about morphs! I love morphs and have no issue with them selling them I just want more info on HOW it was proven. That would make me MUCH more likey to consider buying a hypo, as a patternless garden is one of the things I am trying to work toward. But at this point, with vauge claims, no litter pics or other info, I couldn't plunk the money down in good faith (see, I have no issue admitting I'd be into the morphs not just cause they look awesome and I want an amazon of every color in my collection, but because I would also like to breed and sell babies).

People introduce new morphs all the time, they are usually called out until they can show how it's been proven. They can hold all the babies and parents back to protect their corner in the market and pricing, so I guess I don't see that as a reason why they are holding back info? Maybe I just don't understand that part.

Thank you for sharing the pic of the white ATB and congrats to them for producig such a gem. I wish all their ATB projects success and I just want to know more.
Knowing is half the battle

take care,
-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I appreciate your rational reply. I totally understand people wanting more information. What I don't understand is the nasty comments towards GCR.

Many of the people jumping on the CGR bashing campaign haven't been alive as long as GCR reptiles has been breeding snakes.

Well since you took one line out of all I said and responded to only that, let me return the favor.

"There are already several morphs and "lines" that are sold for thousands of dollars but nobody is telling Mike and Matt to not produce or show-off their babies are we?"

The HUGE difference is that are producing and selling a morph with PROVEN lines and just try and tell either of them to not post pics...

What I asked for along with everybody else is some sort of information or pictures that offers more of an explanation of what is really going on. Nobody is picking on them, everybody is just asking for INFO. Was this a litter where only one snake lived??

Jason

first this was not the only baby alive in that litter but it was a very very small litter, 2nd once this project breeds out, Chris will be more than happy to give out all the info and pics that anyone could ever want because if anyone here knows Chris, they know that he LOVES his tree boas and green trees. This was not a pic that was aimed at promoting animals being placed for sell was it? Have there been any babies put up for sale by GCR that are being advertised as het lucy or as lucy producers? This was a picture that was released so everyone could see that the lucy is doing great and growing nicely without a trace of pattern. I am truly sorry that everyone got WAY CARRIED AWAY with "wanting more info". Like I said earlier which is relayed straight from Chris, when another lucy is produced from this project (I and almost guarantee it will be) all info will be made public. But until then, can't we all just look at this awesome animals and say congrats? now as far as other projects that are being worked on by GCR, I'll try to get some pics up of those animals as well with a little more breeding info to go along with the pics.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I don't know about you but I can smell some jealousy....
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)

>>Based on that statement, I assume you will be sellign any tiger amazons you let go for what??? a hundred bucks?
>>

I shouldn't even acknowledge this sarcastic stupidity but I will. I keep and photograph ATBs, that's my hobby. I breed a few - I think it's fun. I sell and sometimes give away my babies to friends. That's quite a big difference from keeping a breakthrough new morph a secret so you can cash in big. Cha-ching cha-ching cha-ching.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Mike,
My opinion on this is very simple. If you are running a business, and your job, family, future, rely upon you producing and selling animals, then I have absolutely no issue with someone keeping the details of a project secret. Why should you? To some snakes are our hobby and we are happy to give away potentially expensive animals (I do this every year with various boa morphs, and probably gave away 60% of the amazons I produced over the years, and I have produced a fair amount for a hobbiest). To others, its a business, and a business is there to make money. In this current economic climate, when people are struggling to keep up payments on their homes, and losing their jobs, then you know what... I have no issue if they want to make a profit out of a project they have developed over a number of years.

You love amazons, so do I. You strive to breed good quality amazons, so did I (and soon again so will I). You want all of the information you can regarding a morph, well, so do I. But, and a very simple but, I recognize when people have other things riding on new morphs.

They state that they "believe" it is a super form, and hope to prove that later this year with several other litters. They are not saying it "is" a super form. Once they produce further litters, and once they get a better idea of the heterozygose form of this potentially incomplete dominant trait (if it exists and this is not the appearance of a new genetic trait), I am sure we will hear about it.

I have a question for you. Have you called Chris or Sheila personally to talk about this animal? Some people do not frequent forums. They may use classifieds, but maybe they have other things to do each day. I spoke with them about this morph over beers at Daytona and they were extremely passionate and enthused about their amazon projects.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

$$$$ I would agree with you that this will in the end, result in more money for the breeder. I think this is merely business 101 though, any person who is running their own snake breeding business, as an actual business, should be working towards this same goal......MONEY!!!

That being said, I am on the hobbyist side of the whole equation, just as you describe. I work full-time so I can allow my snakes to be a hobby, as I'm sure many of the people on here do as well. I still don't think this gives one the right to talk down on GCR's plan of actual making a profit on their business. I also can't imagine why they should have to release any details until they want to or until they are actually selling these Lucys. Even at this point, I don't think they have to release any of these details to anyone other than the actual buyer.

This is all just in my opinion, but business is business. And I myself think they're just being smart.
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)

>>
>>Yeah, I guess it is all about the money to some people

I just wanted to say this was not meant as an insult to anyone and I hope no one took offense. It was just a knee-jerk reaction to Warren's statement about keeping them a secret until you have some for sale so you don't crash your market.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

To be honest Mike, I took offense at it. You make out that anyone that wants to make a profit from breeding their animals is money grabbing. I spend a lot of money and time keeping my collection of about 80 boas. I take pride in producing good quality morphs and locals. I also look to sell these at a profit each year. That profit helps me maintain my animals for another year, buy new animals, new equipment, rodents, etc. And you know what, if it is able to provide a little extra that enables me and my wife to go on vacation or to buy something new for the house, then you know what, I am down with that. I do not think that is money grabbing.

Obviously we don't all have your extra cash that allows you to buy all of those new Barrs cages, morph amazons, heating and food supplies, etc, and then give away the babies you produce for free. I wish I did, it would be a lot easier than selling some times.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Nice... I also agree with Mike, lets see some litter photos and info.
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Richard Ceniceros

I think I agree with Warren. When it comes down to it,it is thier project, thier animals ,they don't have to share anything they don't want to. It is jealous people that want to know the marker so they can jump to produce some too and cash in. Imagine how bad the ecomonmy would be if every company had to share all thier secrets with thier competition.

HAHA The big difference between a manufacturing company sharing it's info and a breeder is materials. I can go buy the materials to copy your product design but I can not go buy the animals to make a lucy!! So how is it jealousy and attempted theft?? If this is a super form as is suggested then there is a whole other level of mutation involved that nobody has. If the animals were available to produce these then we would see more of them. This is a first because the animals are not available in the first place unless GCR's sells them to you. So your statement has no bearing in reality with either of your points. Not to mention that ATB's are not a "production" type animal in the first place.

Secrecy leads to distrust and in turn a lower dollar and smaller market place to try and sell your animal. This amount of questioning comments comes from the fact that this is not the first time that they have claimed to have a new PROVEN morph and then failed to produce any backing evidence. The questions from the get go from most people is 1) are there more litter mates, 2) what do the parents look like, and 3) what do the litter mates look like? There was or maybe still is a lucy cottonmouth that was produced in a zoo from a lone animal that never saw another of it's kind. That lucy is not a new morph, it is a freak occurrence.

Jason

The correct word here is suggests. Chris and Sheila state that their first breeding "suggests" that the Lucy may be a super form. They are waiting on teh ersults of additional breeding before conclusively coming out with that statement. As a result, I feel that is totally reasonable. Did Danny Menez not state he has produced a Super tiger. The breedings of Matt Lerer suggest that suggest however that the Tiger trait is dominant, and not incomplete dominant as believed, and as the production of a super would suggest.

I would rather sit back and patiently wait for the full story, but in the mean time, I am happy to see what might be a new genetic trait and a hypothesis. Once Chris and Sheila have the full story, I am sure we will all know about it.
Good luck to them. I think its an exciting time for Amazon tree Boa herpetoculture. Hopefully the community will not rip itself apart due to mistrust, jealousy, impatience, whatever.
Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

>> Did Danny Menez not state he has produced a Super tiger. The breedings of Matt Lerer suggest that suggest however that the Tiger trait is dominant, and not incomplete dominant as believed, and as the production of a super would suggest.
>>

No, Danny Mendez never claimed to produce a super tiger. He posted photos of a Tiger that was just outrageous (I think it was Sick Sorbet aka SS) and some people questioned whether or not that was a super tiger, others assumed it was a super, but NO Danny never claimed it was a super tiger.
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Cool. Thanks for clearing that up Mike.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

>> Did Danny Menez not state he has produced a Super tiger. The breedings of Matt Lerer suggest that suggest however that the Tiger trait is dominant, and not incomplete dominant as believed, and as the production of a super would suggest.
>>

No, Danny Mendez never claimed to produce a super tiger. He posted photos of a Tiger that was just outrageous (I think it was Sick Sorbet aka SS) and some people questioned whether or not that was a super tiger, others assumed it was a super, but NO Danny never claimed it was a super tiger.

I remember the post very well and Mike you are correct it was Sick Sorbet or sib. What Danny said in that post was something like just wait until Super Tigers are produced. At that time a Tiger x Tiger breeding had not been done yet.
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Charles Koutris

what was the other "proven" morph that there is no evidence of? curious of this one.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

>>what was the other "proven" morph that there is no evidence of? curious of this one.

I believe the two others they are working with that people (including myself) want more info about are the hypos and the calico.

-April
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

This one, listed in the title and in the message body as "proven co-dom" forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1741466,1741466

>>>>what was the other "proven" morph that there is no evidence of? curious of this one.
>>
>>I believe the two others they are working with that people (including myself) want more info about are the hypos and the calico.
>>
>>-April
>>-----
>>'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow
>>

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

I will talk with Chris and see what if anything he would like to post regarding them. I will also see what Chris wants to post about the Hypos since April brought them up. I will say this though, both morphs are beautiful as small adults.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto

Various Ball Pythons, boas, dogs, cats, fish, a couple sulcatas and a few other odds and ends.

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

>>I will talk with Chris and see what if anything he would like to post regarding them. I will also see what Chris wants to post about the Hypos since April brought them up. I will say this though, both morphs are beautiful as small adults.
>>-----

That would be awesome Josh!
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Mike Heinrich,
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
www.amazontreeboa.org

Great response! I couldn't agree with you more. This is why they call trade secrets, trade secrets.
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Ike Lightner

2.3 BRB (Dugo, Sultan, Roxy, Brazita, & Lucille)