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I'm not going to go into a lot of details of how I found myself in this situation, I just need some help/advice/feedback on what to do now that I am here.

In July, I purchased 4 snakes off of a breeder listing here on kingsnake.com. The breeder was moving across the country and needed to sell the entire collection. We had been in communication and I offered to purchase racks and a few more animals off of the breeder. I drove across the state in August to meet the breeder and pick up the racks/animals. Upon arriving, the breeder asked if I could house the rest of the collection since there were no buyers.

This is my fault: my collection went from 10 snakes to 27 because I agreed to house the animals and care for them. I realize this.

When I arrived back home, cleaned and assembled the racks, got the thermostats set up, it was time to inspect the "new" animals. Most of them were underfed and had stuck sheds. The breeder said that they needed some TLC so while this was an indication to me that they were not cared for 100% properly, I was not entirely surprised. Again, my fault and error.

In September, one of the snakes I originally purchased in July started displaying symptoms of an RI- open mouth breathing, mucus in the mouth, etc. Took her to an emergency vet, diagnosed with RI and received Baytril injections. Completed the first 2 week cycle, no improvement. Took her back to the Emergency Vet, they sedated her to obtain a blood sample and she never woke up. I emailed the breeder about this and the response I received wasn't as concerned as I expected. Another red flag that I missed.

A few weeks later, my spider started displaying the same symptoms. This was part of my original collection so I became VERY worried. Took him to a different vet, diagnosed with RI. Ok not entirely surprising since one snake had it and even though proper precautions were taken, perhaps I missed something- who knows. Anyway, ran a 2 week cycle of Baytril, and set up an appointment with the only herp vet in the area. End of treatment, no real improvement. New vet appointment comes and he is diagnosed with pseudomonas. Ran a 2 week cycle of vitamin and anti-biotic. At the end of this cycle, his mouth seemed to be better (no mucus or open mouth breathing) but his scales start to deteriorate. A few (2) of my OTHER snakes from my original collection and 2 from the purchase in July start to wheeze....

Take them to the vet, all diagnosed with pseudomonas and all given 2 week anti-biotic and vitamin shots. Since we've been going through this, the vet decided to do separate shots.

I have torn apart all of the racks and disinfected them. I've changed substrate from Aspen bedding to paper. I have 3 thermostats set up on my racks and a large humidifier in the room. I wash AND use a hang sanitizer between handling snakes. My spider is almost completely scale-less. I've started to soak him in an iodine solution for 30 minutes every other day when he gets his vitamin shot, and he is rubbed down with Neosporin nightly. Last night though, while checking on the other snakes, more are displaying symptoms. Almost all of them have an irritated mouth.

Last night was the last night of the latest round of anti-biotics and vitamins. I am at a complete loss of what to do. Like I said, I put myself in this position but... I need help.

my apologies: they are all balls.. thought I mentioned that in the original post.

Thank you if anyone reads this and can offer any suggestions. I've already lost one snake and have invested over $1,000 in vet bills... don't know where else to turn..

I am so sorry, I have had a "new" animal take out a few of my long term "kids" in the past, its hard
the only thing I can think of is getting cultures sent out, I know its more $ but to many vets just throw baytril at reptiles, and maybe you can use/add something else to get to whats going on, and may save you $/investment potential in the future, or only for the lives of the animals.
is there any way to move any animals not showing signs anywhere else?
best of luck, keep us posted!
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hanging out under heat lights burns up my brain cells!!

The vet I am working with now has done cultures on them and the results are the same. I told him that the original vet prescribed Baytril and he kind of laughed and said the essentially the same thing: too many vets prescribe it but it is handy to have on hand so I've now got a nice supply in my "snake first aid kit" aka a large sealed and light proof container in my upstairs closet. It's funny: I always joke about how my cats eat better than I do, and now my snakes have better medicine than me!

It has been found with several studies over the last 20 years or so that Pseudomonas is a very common bacterial isolate from captive collections of boids. It was found that something like 99% of all throat swabs from captive pythons tested positive for Pseudomonas aeruginosa, whereas less than a third of wild caught specimens tested positive.

The fact that many wild caught boids showed no sign of P. aeruginosa, and that the vast majority of captive boids are asymptomatic carriers, points to the conclusion that P. aeruginosa and other pathogenic bacteria are opportunistic species in captive boids. It is only when stress suppresses the immune system of the animal, that these bacteria are able multiply to cause a disease condition. Non-stressed captive boids with un-compromised immune systems are able to keep these pathogenic bacteria in check.

Obvious stressors to captive snakes include sub-optimal temperature regimes or humidity, inadequate hiding areas, excessive handling, crowding and incompatibility of specimens, inadequate diet and clean water, injuries, unsanitary conditions, etc. While all of the above stressors can initiate the onset of an RI, I believe the majority of cases are from stress issues caused by sub-optimal temps, and in some cases humidity. Antibody response in reptiles is temperature dependent. Sub-optimal temps can readily compromise the immune system of captive boids, and low humidity, especially in winter months, dries and damages lung tissue and exposes it to infection by these already existing organisms.

The fact that Pseudomonas was isolated in your snakes is not surprising as it has always been there in probably all of these snakes, yours and the new ones. What I am getting to in a round about way is that for this many snakes to become infected in this short of time, either some type of serious stressor needs to be occurring that is suppressing the immune systems, or there is a more exotic bacterial, viral or fungal infection moving through the collection. What have your temps been running in these cages and are all specimens showing infection ones being kept in these new racks. Once any temp issue or any other stressor issue can be ruled out, one option would be to switch to another antibiotic to see if that is more effective. Fortaz (ceftazidime), a third generation cephalosporin, is one that comes to mind as it has a high degree of effectiveness against many pathogenic bacterial species in reptiles. It will be considerably more effective than Baytril in many cases. If that fails, there is a more remote chance that you may be dealing with a viral or fungal issue, but that would be more uncommon. Check all husbandry issues, and consider changing antibiotics and see if you see improvement. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Kelly

To add to Kelly's informative post, I would say that any animals that die, have an immediate, and very thorough necropsy performed. This will probably be the your best spent money at this point in time. I wouldn't be surprised to see an underlying viral problem here.

Ian

I assumed that this would have been completed as well; however, when she died and I called the vet to inform them, they told me to just freeze the body and dispose of it in accordance with whatever guidelines my township had and then I received a sympathy card in the mail a few days later. That was the breaking point and why I did NOT go back to them when the next snake began showing symptoms. I asked the vet I'm currently working with and he stated that at this point since the body has been in the freezer since she passed, it wouldn't do any good for the necropsy to be performed. So much for listening to advice, right?

thank you Kelly! This is exactly what I was hoping to get when I posted this.. I researched a little bit about Pseudomonas but honestly have not had the time to delve into it as much as I need to. And I understand that sounds stupid and that I don't make time for my animals but that isn't the case. Things are though looking up for the time being. Hopefully, it continues and the illness is eradicated.

Thank you again!

In your first post you said that you disinfected the racks. What did you use?

The reason I ask is because a few months ago I had a similar situation, but involving two Burmese Pythons. One appeared to have a slight response to Baytril injections but the other one didn't. I scrubbed the cage and did everything imaginable but their condition wasn't improving enough for me. Very seldom have I had to resort to antibiotics to get rid of an RI, but something was obviously different this time.

I placed them in other cages and within a few days I saw improvements. Not long afterward one got sick again. Yes, back in the original cage. Took me a few months of re-tracing my steps, over & over, before I finally hit upon a possible cause.

The month of August was unusually dry here and I also increased the ventilation holes in that cage and failed to monitor the humidity level within it. That's also about the time I switched from cleaning my cages with a bleach solution to using Nolvasan.

When the timing of it all dawned on me I read the label on the bottle of Nolvasan. What does it say? "Not effective against Pseudomonas aeruginosa ....."

However, I didn't have any issues with them losing scales like you. I don't know what to make of that.

I wish you all the best!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

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