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reptile intelligence redux

53kw Nov 20, 2010 01:35 PM

In his post below, Pete mentioned that his Clifton’s racer seemed intelligent. That got me thinking about reptile intelligence.

The quest to define ourselves has gone on as long as we have existed. From the earliest cave paintings of a human hand outlined in berry juice sprayed from the painter’s mouth to the present and doubtless forever, we humans seem to have a compelling need to make sure the universe knew we were here.

Along the way we’ve made some pretty strange claims, including more than a few thoughtless, self-serving claims. We’ve declared even our own kind to be lacking in basic intelligence and feeling when it suited our purpose. Reptiles have hardly stood a chance of being recognized as sentient, entitled creatures.

As we revisit old turf through the lens of renewed scientific curiosity, we find that we were wrong about quite a bit, including reptile intelligence, emotion and entitlements. It turns out that lizards can count, that snakes are emotional and that many reptiles are actually caring parents in their own right.

It’s the lie-in-wait herps that throw us. Hard-wired for levels of patience usually attributed to glaciers, they rarely wear their hearts on their sleeves…or would if they had sleeves. Boas, rattlesnakes and other easy-to-keep species so dear to the hearts of zoos because they are near-zero maintenance, have intelligence, feelings, perhaps even desires, but good luck getting them to show it.

Sighthunters are their polar opposites in expression. Racers, coachwhips, indigos and cobras have to solve problems as they pursue existences across the fullest spectrum of situations. A recent study of crows ended up crowing about how intelligent crows are because they recognized masks worn by researchers in different situations. My coachwhips and racers know my face, no matter what clothes I’m wearing, and ignore most other people even at feeding time. They also know when I’m preparing to offer them food and show emotion in the snake way – through body language.

Racers which are excited in positive ways vibrate their tails and wiggle their bodies in ways that probably share the same physiological roots as similar expressions in dogs. Even people get a spine tingle when apprehensive or excited – ancient shared sensations rising from emotion. 350 million years ago, it’s likely only one line – or a very few lines – of amniotes existed on Earth and although they split into many lines, leaving two distinct lineages to survive to the present, there was a time when we surviving amniotes were all one flesh, and we carried away much shared physical and neural infrastructure when we diverged.

Snake body language is subtly different when the snake is alarmed. Racers and coachwhips, among the most expressive of snakes, have a curious little neck ripple they do when they are not sure of a situation. Tail vibrating and body sine-waving are common to positive and negative excitement; most of you have noticed that dogs wag when alarmed as well as happy – it’s emotion that tingles the spine, not merely fear.

When I’ve kept wild-caught racers for brief periods then released them, they get very active as they approach their release points. It’s well established that snakes have among the most sensitive olfaction of any living things, and short-term captives doubtless smell their home turf through the bags before they are released. I’ve seen just-released racers climb into trees or tall shrubs and stay there, taking in the sunlight and the fresh air when they could easily have sought shelter and concealment. Were they glad to be home? They looked like they were.

If reptiles do feel joy, sadness and other emotions, it’s a short step to accepting that they have native entitlements to adequate habitat and lives free of human interference. That may not go over well with some human agendas, like putting housing developments anywhere we want. Motives for pushback against the idea that reptiles are intelligent, sensitive, deserving creatures can come from many quarters.

Pete’s Clifton’s racer, my captive-bred racers and coachwhips, and wild reptiles demonstrate problem-solving intelligence, curiosity (how many of us have seen racers periscoping from concealment to check us out as we pass?) and individuality. I hope the Sighthunters provide enough evidence of reptile intelligence and emotion to stimulate professional scholars to begin serious investigations into just what kind of creatures we share the world with.

Replies (20)

peters Nov 20, 2010 07:36 PM

Thank you for the wonderful post. It realy helped confirm my observations from so long ago.
theOLDherper
Pete

Bigtattoo Nov 21, 2010 05:01 AM

Great post extremely well written. I would agree with all you said regarding herp intelligence and even emotions. I swear I see my coachwhips thinking about "things." If we watch our snakes closely we can see fear, contentment, hunger, of course this requires some human intelligence also.

Some even exhibit separation anxiety. Reading on the Pits forum of pits kept together for long periods then being separated and showing signs of stress. Put them back together and they settle back down. Definitely some sign of emotional distress.

I saw that program on crows and was fascinated by their use of tools and problem solving. It reminded me of the rats in a maze experiments.

Maybe you should consider doing some testing of snake intelligence. With your writing skills along with observation I'm sure it would be excellent reading.

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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

pyromaniac Nov 21, 2010 01:39 PM

Some even exhibit separation anxiety. Reading on the Pits forum of pits kept together for long periods then being separated and showing signs of stress. Put them back together and they settle back down. Definitely some sign of emotional distress.
My '09 male bull Alfonzo gets very upset if I take his sister Zoey out of the cage for too long. They have always been kept together since they were babies. Zoey seems to be less prone to upset, although she will watch for him to be returned from the feeding tub, then she will go under the hide and they will relax together. Awhile back Alfonzo had a stomach ailment and I tried separating them so I could treat him more easily. No way! He got so agitated I had to right away put him back with her. He recovered nicely. I don't think he would have got well if I had insisted upon separation.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Bigtattoo Nov 22, 2010 02:57 AM

My '09 male bull Alfonzo gets very upset if I take his sister Zoey out of the cage for too long. They have always been kept together since they were babies. Zoey seems to be less prone to upset, although she will watch for him to be returned from the feeding tub, then she will go under the hide and they will relax together. Awhile back Alfonzo had a stomach ailment and I tried separating them so I could treat him more easily. No way! He got so agitated I had to right away put him back with her. He recovered nicely. I don't think he would have got well if I had insisted upon separation.

I imagine some would consider it "over emotional anthropomorphizing" to think that this represents a "congnitive ability which is paramount for any emotion" but me just being a non locality (IE; generic) human I can't help but assign human qualities to that behavior.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

53kw Nov 22, 2010 04:29 PM

You've seen behavior in captive reptiles that suggests discontent with certain situations, and you're most likely correct to interpret it that way. That's how I see such behavior.

To pass the rigor of scientific inquiry, these behaviors would have to be repeatable, limitable to specific, measurable conditions, and predictable/triggerable in controlled tests. Reptiles present serious challenges to behavior studies since it's not easy to interpret their mood by observation, and assigning motives to observed behavior is likely to be challenged for some time until evidence-supported arguments can prevail.

As keepers, we can let the animals tell us what they want and try to deliver. Good for you, for believing your snakes know what they want.

CrimsonKing Nov 21, 2010 08:19 AM

why....I have no idea what you're talking about...

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

pyromaniac Nov 21, 2010 01:31 PM

Awww...those are just too cute!
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Bigtattoo Nov 21, 2010 01:42 PM

Heheheh Love those coachwhips.

Here's 2 of mine.

-----
BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

CrimsonKing Nov 21, 2010 02:03 PM

..these are s. black racers....
They'd follow me anywhere, I swear!

:Mark
-----
Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Bigtattoo Nov 21, 2010 02:08 PM

My bad.LOL Still real lookers and act just like my eastern cw's.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

jodscovry Dec 08, 2010 06:27 PM

Big difference in this forum in ten years huh?, what a great thread, I'm practically thrilled at the level of knowledge being made available to all the new longtail fans here, this thread represents IMO the maximum potential forums could/should provide, and crazy as it sounds will probably save this species from a miserable existence in the pet trade as well. this one thread could provide a beginner with enough info, not found in any book, to have success. I knew oneday we would see easterns in collections everywhere and want you all to know I'll do my part and have more eggs come spring... JB

arkanis Nov 21, 2010 11:45 AM

that is pretty interesting... i too have observed at least one of my snakes doing something smart before.... but then again i raised praying mantis and they seem intelligent to me also :/ perhaps i am easily impressed. I found a study on snake intelligence using cornsnakes that tested their learning time... very interesting stuff... http://www.rochester.edu/pr/releases/bcs/snake.htm

pyromaniac Nov 21, 2010 01:26 PM

I totally agree that reptiles do have emotions. My bulls are probably my most expressive snakes, coming out and watching me even when they are not hungry. They just like to know what is going on in the room.

I attempt to give all my snakes and lizards and toads as big and interesting a habitat as I can manage. One can keep snakes in little plastic boxes with just a water bowl, a hide, and some newspaper for substrate, but then one can keep a man in an 8 x8 x8 foot cell with just a bed and a toilet, but will either of these species be very happy kept like that?

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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Bigtattoo Nov 21, 2010 01:33 PM

WTH?? Those aren't pyros. LOL But they are some real pretty bulls. Let me know if you breed them. I would be interested in a nice male to go with my 0.3 red females that are coming in with my YT's.

My Northerns are the same way. I just fed them and one is out and watching me right now. Very curious snakes.

I love your enclosure idea of having tubes connecting tubs together.
-----
BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

pyromaniac Nov 21, 2010 01:47 PM

Let me know if you breed them.
I don't think I will have much say on the matter of them breeding. They are inseparable, so when they are ready to mate, they will be doing it on their own time and choosing! LOL!

I'll let you know when we have babies. I can also connect you with the breeder I got mine from, although he sold the father, so doesn't have the Stillwater part of the Kingsville x Stillwater equation anymore.
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Bigtattoo Nov 21, 2010 02:06 PM

I'll let you know when we have babies. I can also connect you with the breeder I got mine from, although he sold the father, so doesn't have the Stillwater part of the Kingsville x Stillwater equation anymore.

If he can't produce what you have I wouldn't be interested but thanks. I've seen a lot of red bulls but none have struck me as yours did. Well except for my girls.
-----
BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

pyromaniac Nov 21, 2010 02:14 PM


Them this last February right out of brumation. Alfonzo on left and Zoey on right. Lot bigger now.

Got to get off computer now and tend to the mouse barn chores...
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Bob/Chris
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire

Bigtattoo Nov 22, 2010 02:40 AM

Man they are gorgeous. I am curious to know who the breeder was even if he isn't still.
-----
BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

FR Nov 22, 2010 10:56 AM



They also learn quickly. I trained one female to eat out of my hands, and four others copied her.

But, so did gophersnakes and diamondbacks.

In my opinion, after studying many species of snakes and lizards, they are are very intelligent, its more about how we precieve their movements that allow us to think one species is smarter then other. Kinda like why many folks think lizards are smarter. You know, because they have eyelids and you can detect eye movement. Cheers

53kw Nov 22, 2010 05:05 PM

New additions learn by watching veteran specimens. I exploit that by making sure I have veterans around to teach new additions about food and other resources. It's effective with lizards and seems to work with snakes kept together.

Monitors are quick to step up when the latches securing their cages are opened, and although not as speedy as monitors, other lizards including Collared, Horned, Chuckwallas and desert iguanas all learn to come forward at feeding time. New additions to established groups revise their behavior faster when they have senior specimens to learn from.

I had some new additions to a garter snake cage holding long-term animals. The veterans came forward for food and within a few days the newcomers did the same. It took far longer to condition the first ones than to condition the new ones when there were long-term specimens they could learn from.

There are many reports of wild reptiles learning to accept food from people who live around them. Karl Angermeyer, a german-born naturalist guide and painter who settled in the Galapagos used to feed wild marine iguanas from his fingers. The iguanas would climb into his lap to be fed. I've read claims that sacred snakes living around temples accept food from temple workers. I'd bet new generations of snakes learn by observing their elders in such situations.

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