Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Any tips on suggested temps for these guys? Should they be treated the same as Diamonds?

I'm FAR from an expert, but I let mine get cold last year... REALLY cold!!! When a front came through I'd put them in the garage, open the door part way and let the temps drop as low as possible. How low? Mornings would be around 40 to 45 and DTH around 60 to 65. I'd let them stay in those conditions as long as it lasted up to around 4 days and then back into their enclosures where heat tape was set at 84. Repeat all winter, feed small meals sparingly (females) on warmer cycles during this time, watch them breed, ovulate and collect eggs in the Spring. I've heard some folks have problems at those kind of temps, but so far so good with my adults. Just did the first cycle this past week and both pairs breeding yesterday.

Matt

>>Any tips on suggested temps for these guys? Should they be treated the same as Diamonds?
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"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

Matt, that sounds kinda rough but still in line with Diamond temps. Do they coexist the same areas in Australia?

Opposite ends of Austalia...not even close..top and bottom of the continent. Diamonds are south (cold), BHs are northern (warm), although they can live in places where it gets pretty cool at night, but then they burrow or seek shelter in holes and cracks.

Thanks for that info. Can you recommend a brumation temp & duration? Also, I'm seeing new borns offered now. Are they typically late breeders? Any info really appreciated!
Dan

I have not "brumated" them at all but my house get a chill in the air no matter what I do. I live in Chicago and my night time temps in my house get into the 60's with their heat lights on during the day. The chilly air seems to spur them on for sure. That is just my experience and I have only bred them the last 2 years.

The babies are for sale now because it takes some time to get them feeding but they hatch out for most breeders from late May- early July with June being my month. Also a couple bigger guys got some clutches from breeders at pretty low prices and in an effort to dump them asap they put them up as non-feeders for super cheap. That sort of put the whole market price into question with folks that do not understand all the work going into breeding, hatching, and getting the babies to feed trying to get feeding babies from guys who are producing them themselves for the wholesaler market crashing price on non-feeders.

Myself and some of the others that put the work in on these have refused to half our prices just because 3 clutches went to market at wholesale. The buyers are waiting for some hot looking babies to come up for sale at the wholesale price and that is not going to happen but in the mean time the market has a misconceived lower baby price to the point that I am not even marketing my 2010 babies. I am instead just sitting back enjoying watching them grow and changing my mind on which animals to hold back. I really love these snakes and truly enjoy working with them more than anything else besides my Pseustes so I am more than happy to sit back and feed them.

From what I have seen in the cheap babies, they have been quite dark with muddy patterns and not feeding. In one pic I saw in an add a while back there were visible skin folds in the rear half of the snake... not what I would want to drop a grand on. I don't really expect to see many more of these quick dump clutch sales next year, they are just not that easy to breed.

Jason

Been thinking about some of the things you said and I have a little input for what it's worth (or not worth! ).

>>Also a couple bigger guys got some clutches from breeders at pretty low prices and in an effort to dump them asap they put them up as non-feeders for super cheap. That sort of put the whole market price into question with folks that do not understand all the work going into breeding, hatching, and getting the babies to feed trying to get feeding babies from guys who are producing them themselves for the wholesaler market crashing price on non-feeders.

I honestly have to disagree to some extent. The BHP market has been on a free fall for years, just like every other. Just over a decade ago they were $15K each and even more! Prices falling are a natural effect of a capitalist economy where supply, demand and no-price fixing exists. For a number of years now a significant quantity of BHP have been entering the market at 'below' public market value here and there. I've seen in the past three years alone a few animals from time to time in the $850 to $1000 range. Heck, I saw adults last year I think for like $2500 each!

My opinion is this: Three clutches made no difference on the actual 'value' or prices of BHP. Why? Lets look at a similar market: Green Tree Pythons. They were a holy grail for years for so many people, myself included. Breeders dedicated endless hours to their reproduction which years ago was seen as extremely difficult. Then in almost an instant a single importer was able to change the demographics forever bringing in CH babies in large numbers. At first there was surely massive panic, then acceptance as it became apparent that farmed baby GTP were not going away. What happened? Some breeders got out (same as in BHP no doubt) but in the end, not much really! The people who domestically bred them no longer got $750 each, they got $450 to $500 each. Then as numbers increased it dropped to $350 each and seems pretty steady to me. CH imports are $200 to $250 and CBB are $300 and up. What still remained? The specialized breeders working with morphs and locales. They STILL get their money. Why? The buyers are educated and know the difference in many cases. They know they want CBB and they buy them. The people who want 'cheap' buy 'cheap'. In the end, everyone adjusted. I feel BHP buyers are the exact same way. Some want a 'cheap' fix while others want the designer animals selectively bred for certain traits. In the end I honestly believe the market suffered absolutely no ill as a result of a few clutches of non feeders being put out for public consumption in 2010. While I have no need to justify my personal actions, I will tell you this: In 2010 I wholesaled 2 (yep, only two) animals to a 'dealer'. I was at an expo and needed cash immediately for something else, plain and simple. I have no regrets with the decision. The rest from 2010? I sold (non-wholesale) a small group of non feeders to a husband and wife who have been keeping BHP for years, plan to reproduce them and were MORE than eager to get their hands wet with non feeders if you will (and bring in another bloodline to work with). The rest are still here in my collection. Some eating, some are not. You know the drill. Anyway, my point is that there are a LOT (yes, a heck of a lot) of BHP being produced relative to the potential demand at a certain price. The 'high end' BHP breeders are always going to have cutting edge animals and will get their prices just like the designer GTP, Ball, Blood, Carpet, etc. people do. I believe this 100% as I've seen it time and time again over the past 15 years.

>>Myself and some of the others that put the work in on these have refused to half our prices just because 3 clutches went to market at wholesale. The buyers are waiting for some hot looking babies to come up for sale at the wholesale price and that is not going to happen but in the mean time the market has a misconceived lower baby price to the point that I am not even marketing my 2010 babies. I am instead just sitting back enjoying watching them grow and changing my mind on which animals to hold back. I really love these snakes and truly enjoy working with them more than anything else besides my Pseustes so I am more than happy to sit back and feed them.

You nailed it there! DO NOT sell anything for less than you feel the value. But, always keep in mind that there's going to be someone producing large numbers and diluting the market even more. It's a simple fact of our economic system. Trust me when I say this, there are a lot (and I really mean a LOT) of adult BHP in collections working toward massive production. Will this change things in the future? No doubt! But, the 'designers' will remain and always have buyers. A friend of mine who produces some of the most amazing GTP I've ever seen sold nearly two clutches this season at a starting price of $1000 each per baby! I was completely floored by this and it simply solidified my opinions stated here. I believe there are always going to be two markets to everything. I'm not at all suggesting you lower your prices, but simply keep in mind what's really going on out 'there'. Me? In some ways I'm all for lower prices. It puts the animal in reach of a heck of a lot more hobbyists who no longer have to wait to get what they have always dreamed of. I'm in this boat too! I NEVER thought there would be a day when I kept let alone reproduced BHP. I could not be happier with them and always plan to work with them.

>>From what I have seen in the cheap babies, they have been quite dark with muddy patterns and not feeding.

This is where I must respectfully disagree. I've seriously never seen a BHP I did not find some type of 'quality' with. No kidding, I can recall probably 10 years ago seeing 'black backs' and hearing other people at an expo talking about how ugly they thought they were! Seriously, I'd go APE right now for one of D.R.'s black backs- I LOVE those things! Heck, I purposely kept back the 'ugliest' baby produced from three years ago and he's one of my absolute favorites. Beauty I believe can be found in these animals no matter the color/pattern, etc... I guess I'm just wild about BHP. Sorry to disagree with you so strongly, but I really think all BHP are just killer, plain and simple. The BHP 'puppy mills' are still making beautiful snakes in my eyes. Again, just my opinion.

>>I don't really expect to see many more of these quick dump clutch sales next year, they are just not that easy to breed.

Unfortunately (yes, I do mean 'unfortunately' that since I too have a lot of time and $ vested in my BHP) it's going to be more and more frequent in much larger numbers. But, I'm OK with that. I know my babies (at least in my eyes) are beautiful, robust and I'm 100% honest with people. I tell them they DO NOT eat and they understood 100%! I tell them they eat and they are guaranteed eating 100%. Jason, you've got great looking animals, a good attitude in the posts I've read from you and seem to know what you're doing with BHP. I have little doubt that the right buyers will see what you offer and wind up with your animals. Sorry to ramble so much... I'm REALLY sick with a bad cold so I truly hope you do not take any offense to anything I've written as there is NO malice in my typing. Just my skewed opinions and perspectives.

Matt
p.s. - Nearly 10 years ago I got into Albino Ball Pythons... talk about a difference in prices now! It's all part of the deal and I'm okay with this. Sometimes I feel like I've taken a beating but in all reality the buyer base is now HUGE and growing! I've been good to them and they have been good to me. I see only good things with what we do, plain and simple.
-----
"Change what you cannot accept... do not accept what you can't change!"

Tod Ashley C.$.C.

At the Philadelphia show a few years ago, when Balls were sky high (spiders for 10K) I asked the presenters when the Beanie Baby effect would hit. They said it wouldn't. I knew it would, as all morphs do.

PS...I bought my first BHP from the Shed (remember them?) in the early 80's for $700. Full grown male.

Oh yeah....there are people now sitting on around 60 BHPs each, to keep the price up.

Posted by: Jaykis at Thu Dec 9 19:20:25 2010
Oh yeah....there are people now sitting on around 60 BHPs each, to keep the price up.

Jay, who exactly are you talking about???

Not you. Butch was telling me.

I'm sitting on 60 animals (I can't speak for Keogan but, I believe his reasoning is the same) because I simply love the animals.
I want to see how many different type I can create....with the lines that are available.
Keeping these animals isn't about "the money"....at least for me it isn't. It's about the animal itself. And the challenge of keeping them happy and reproduce high quality animals.
( Jaykis...You say you've had BHPs since the 70s but, how many have you killed????? I personally know of 2! One was a perfect 9 foot female that Keogan sold you. That animal was dead with-in a month. So...you keep saying how much they're going to drop, etc....doesn't really mean much coming from a guy that has had them so long but, hasn't managed to even keep em alive long enough to do anything with em'.)

The quality will always be the end issue when it comes to the serious collector. And, lets face it....with so many "classic" BHPs available at this point....keepers are looking for animals that stand out. I should know because I'm selling animals for exactly what I want for them....with no issues.

Right now if you want any of the Black Backs, the Finest Black and Whites, Pinstripes, clean Reds, Bumble Bees, Axanthics, high contrast, animals that stand out from the norm....you're going to have to come to Keogan or myself.
Sure there are more guys working with BHPs but, we are the only folks with the numbers to make....what we're making with these animals. Of course, other keepers have some fine animals but, mostly just a couple of pairs so they too can produce BHPs. that's a different game than what I'm playing......I'm making art with these animals. I don't breed them to pay my light bill.

There are VERY FEW keepers who have continued success with BHPs and they certainly aren't large numbers of them produced. Bottom line is...the animals aren't that easy, they're tough to get feeding etc....they will always be a great investment python. Even if they're 500 bucks.

Another factor you have to account for is "breeder burn out". And, I'm not taking about humans getting tired of them. I'm taking about the animals that don't breed anymore.

Go back 8-10 years....remember, they was 3 or 4 guys producing 20-30 BHPs every year. In the last 5 or 6 years....they've had nothing. One keeper moved all his animals out because he was frustrated at them mysteriously stopping breeding. Another guy I know....who was producing each year....hasn't produced anything in the last 4 years....not that he doesn't want to.

They are certain things these animals can take... and certain things they can't.
The information on how to keep these animals....in the long run....will be worth more than the animal itself.

I've been very generous with the info I've given out and in a way, I take blame for the cheap animals that were sold recently because I verbally gave the guy the info to hatch them. Talked with him on the phone for hours about how to set them up, etc.
And, it's not the first time I've talked guys through it....but, it will be the last.
Not that I've got a better system than anyone else but, Along with Keogan....we have been more successful at this species than most other folks with em'.

There's a certain way they need to be kept in order for them to have a long productive happy life.

So, that information only travels with the sale of my animals from now on.

D.

>>The quality will always be the end issue when it comes to the serious collector. And, lets face it....with so many "classic" BHPs available at this point....keepers are looking for animals that stand out. I should know because I'm selling animals for exactly what I want for them....with no issues.

You nailed it on the head, Derek! 15 years from now it will still be the same in my opinion. As stated in my previous post, I was floored that this year a friend of mine sold two clutches of Chondro Pythons for $1000 each and up per baby in NO time! It reaffirmed what I believe about two levels to every 'market' if you will.

>>Bottom line is...the animals aren't that easy, they're tough to get feeding etc....they will always be a great investment python. Even if they're 500 bucks.

That said it best-

Matt

Derek, what prompted that attack? The animal I got from Tom had a freak accident where either the teeth or a broken femur of a rat sliced open it's heart cavity. Would you like the report sent to you from my Vet?

And show me where I said it was a bad thing to keep 60 BHPs if you like them. Wow...you caught me off guard with your post. And yes, it was both a lot of money to lose AND a beautiful animal.

And to add to that, yes....BHPs will eventually drop in value. All snakes do. Even Boelens.

And snakes die in captivity all the time for various reasons. Some are for known reasons, some are not. Even accidents occur. And my male is in excellant condition, at 6 years of age. While I may not have the "reputation" of a Derek Roddy...and we've never met....I know Tom very well and admire his animals greatly. Been keeping herps for over 50 years, so I'm not a novice at this.

>>At the Philadelphia show a few years ago, when Balls were sky high (spiders for 10K) I asked the presenters when the Beanie Baby effect would hit. They said it wouldn't. I knew it would, as all morphs do.

LOL! The Beanie Baby Effect... Love it! Heck, one year down here (Fl) Cave Dwelling rat snakes were $1000 each. The next year? $100!!! I had a couple friends almost pass out when that happened.

>> PS...I bought my first BHP from the Shed (remember them?) in the early 80's for $700. Full grown male.

NICE!!! Well, $700 back then is like $7000 today?!? Do you still have him?

Matt

No, he was loaned to the Staten Island zoo for breedinf with their female. It died there and they never even notified me

OK here is why I say I don't expect to see this sort of thing happen this season. I have met far more people who own blackheads that have never produced with them than I have people who can get it done. I have made sales to people who are sort of "off the grid" so to speak who never post anywhere, don't go to shows, and some who only want "pets" or single snakes.

In doing shows where I have them on my table I get lots of people that tell me they have them but can't produce. One guy bought his pair at $15,000 years ago and has had slugs, fertile eggs go bad, or eggs go full term and die every time he tried to produce them. I met another guy that talk so much crap about the numbers of adults and different looks he had that I had to call BS on him and told him to show me some pics and he showed up the next day with an album full of everything he said he had...

Point is, yes there are tons and TONS and TONS of adults out there and from all of them there have been very few babies produced. I have no doubt gotten lucky the last two year but then again both of my clutches are from different females. This year is looking doubtful in my mind with the one female I have ready to go.

Also the bigger the female the less likely she can go year after year or even given a year off. If you do get her back to size you will likely see issues with her health due to the feed schedule you had to have her on to put all the weight back on. My female that I would like to try this year is about 7 feet long and she has good body weight but she really just got back to "good" with in the last month or two. Bigger females need longer, but then you have to balance keeping their fat down too...

These are not like ball pythons (beanie babies) these are much different. All this is also why you see the adults show up for sale cheap. Often it is a keeper that had to trade the animal away for something after failing because he could not bring himself to sell the animal.

Jason

First off.....I apologize to Jaykis. Haha....that was a bit un called for.
Jaykis, over the years you have constantly made snide comments to myself and Tom about the market, etc....Without taking your own experiences with these animals into account.
In a way...you're saying these others guys ("the market crashes" have superior knowledge than yourself about these animals....I know that not to be true.

Fact is.... that breeding BHPs is a matter of luck and a little bit of experience working with them.
The ONLY reason I produce babies for me to play with each year is because I have so many. Power in numbers!

Until a keeper is willing to offer only reptile prey to these animals.....we're still going to see the problems associated with them in the past. It's a flux....otherwise the market would have been "crashed" a long time ago.
They've been available as long as most other species.....so? what's the problem?

Anyone remember the mid 90's? Casey and Doug Price produced HUNDREDS of BHPs......where are they? And more importantly, where are the babies?
If you can find an animal that casey produced....it's at least 15 years old. Easy answer....only very few people who got those animals.... were successful at producing anything.
I talk to all kinds of BHP keepers each year and 90% of them tell me that nothing happen or they send me a picture like this one...
Yes, we all understand how the markets work....but, unless you have experience with these animals....you can not understand how the animal works.
And while yes, they are eventually going to come down....the nice ones are always going to be in demand because of the limited #s.
Someone made a comment about them overpriced......overpriced for who? You?
Like I said....I rarely sell animals but I have no problem getting what I'm asking. That tells me they're worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them.
Simple really
D

Also.... what's funny is that 75% of this years BHP producing market is involved in this thread! Haha.
Puts it unto perspective. LoL

First of all...please check posts. I am not the one that said they were overpriced.

Secondly, I cannot ever remembering EVER making snide remarks to either you or particularly Tom about the market, or anything else derrogitory. If you can find such posts, show them to me. I was heartbroken the morning I found my female that I had gotten for $3400 from Tom dead in her cage, with a huge swelling in her heart area. I consider Tom a friend and he has an incredible selection of animals. We talk every year at DB, except for this year when he had a successful breeding of a different sort and was unable to make it

Thirdly, apology accepted.

Well I thought I would jump in here since I am on the look for a BHP.
Ben Siegel has some reasonably priced BHP currently
Anybody have any remarks about these? Does anybody have any for sale now?
Thx Guys

Having the experience I have with black heads.....I wouldn't touch those animals with a 10 foot stack of someone else's 100 dollar bills.
I like Ben...he's a great guy but, when it comes to these animals...it's best to get them from people who actually work with them....as people who do not work with them... do not understand their requirements as well.

Contact myself or Tom Keogan for solid animals... that will do well for you. No changing hands or mixed up information, correct lineage info, proper feeding schedule and detailed information on how to keep your animals.

Cheers,
D

Danny to answer your question more fairly I would suggest night time dips with full access to daytime highs. Light cycle and feed schedule should also reflect "winter" conditions. They are a sub tropical to almost tropical animal with a body color that suggest they may bask even in the cold by sticking their heads out of rocks. If that is true or not I have had success with night time dips and daytime of full heat.

To put this in perspective I have never "cooled" any snake I have bred though I have altered their set up to "brumate" them or more accurately stimulate them into a winter mode via light cycle and feeding reduction and I have bred every snake I have ever tried to with this method, albeit altered for each species in one way or another. I have even effectively altered the season by light cycle alone.

Jason

Jason, thanks for bringing things back full circle! Interesting thread, though, even though it got way away from the subject.
Reckon I'll cool them lightly for a couple months as I do the colubrids & see what happens.
Thanks all!
Dan.

Better question is what size are they?? How old??

Yes do what you would for other snakes but introduce them in the cool down. They are winter breeders and mine are going in with each other now.

Jason

Thanks Jason, Wintertime breeders huh? Guess I missed the boat for this year. I had no idea.
The male is a 7' 2007 cream color from Troy Trowbridge. The female is a 6' 2006 muddy from James Cucinota.
Any advice on what my approach should be for 2011?
Thanx in advance,
Dan.

Well the female sounds small so next year is likely the best option but the breedings are usually in January or so.

Jason