Reptile & Amphibian Forums

As I have been reading dry pellet diets for iguanas, and fidn it difficult to obtain some of the products recommend, I saw several posts that says that rabbit pellets used as bedding, if ingested, is "good for them".

I also saw a post which says that some of the recommended products here have essentially the same ingredients as rabbit pellets, but listed in different order.

I also found that certain brands of iguana specific foods were talked about as "incomplete", because they are missing the alfalfa component. Which is what we see in rabbit pellets.

I have bought zoo med and basically it looks like effin' rabbit pellets!

So why not just feed rabbit pellets? I am not saying you should, or that it is OK. I don't know if it is. I am just posing the question to see what people think and hopefully learn more.

I myself own a green iguana, not cyclura. But it seems their dietary requirements are very similar if not identical to cycluras, and green iguana forum members do not know nearly as much as, nor are as willing to discuss, dry pellets as cyclura owners, thus my post here instead. However, if there are differences, please do let me know, and if adjustments need to be made.

And oh yes, I understand that rabbit pellets are meant for rabbits. But tortoise pellets are meant for tortoises too...

I don't know about other iguana commercial food containing alfalfa or if they are good for green iguanas, but I used to use the rabbit pellets. I make sure the alfalfa is the first ingredient and it doesnt' contain animal protein. I always wet it a little and wait for it to fall apart, and then mix it right in with the salad. Some iguanas hate the smell of alfalfa, but mine didn't mind it...as long as I mixed some finely grated fruits in with the salad.

You said iguana people don't know about this. Some iguana people do use alfalfa and rabbit pellets. That's who I learned from.... A lot of the info can be found on www.anapsid.org, too.

Hey thanks for the response. What brands/products did you use? Did you feed them exclusively the pellets or mixed with greens/vegetables?

About the green iguana people. I don't mean that ALL of them don't know about this. It's just that I have seen people post about pellet diets on green iguana forums and the responses were quite hostile, as if they were doing something bad feeding that stuff to them. But I have talked to a very experience breeder who says it is healthy and ok.

Oh sorry I just reread your reply you mix the rabbit pellets with your salad soaked. Sorry I was too excited!

I always try to wet the rabbit pellets so that is moist.... Dry food can dehydrate you iguana when the gut pulls out water to digest it. Their natural food contain quite a bit of moisture...in fact I think almost everything that the animals eat contain certain percentage of water. Snakes can get much of the moisture from the whole preys they eat.

Yeah I find that things that look like classic rabbit pellets when soaked turn to dust and fall apart, whereas things that have the cakey texture like Mazuri tortoise stay intact when soaked, just softens up a bit. I found some rabbit pellets that have the same kind of texture as the mazuri tortoise, and the nutrition looks OK to me, though I'm no expert. I posted the values as a response to my post. What you guys think?

I thought the same thing...then I gave them rabbit pellets..

my cyclura spit them out and the greenies didnt touch them.

There is something delicious about zoo med, and if they had vocal cords they would tell me!

My iguana HATE zoo med. He spit that out

I saw some rabbit pellets that do not look like the standard olive green colored "tubes", but actually looks like those tortoise pellets everyone talks about, in texture. Maybe I will try it. I do want to know about long term potential harm though.

You can train them to eat food you want them to eat. When my iguana was still young, he had to eat what I put in front him or he's not getting anything else. Now, he'll eat almost anything...more or less. Food that he doesn't he eats way less than food that he does, but he still eat it. So I mix it with the stuff he does like. Sometime I can see the stuff he manage to left behind after picking through all the goodies, he likes, but he does ate quite a bit of it. I guess you can cut it up finer or put it the food processor when you mix it in with his food.

Here are the ingredient list of two feed pellets that I found, one meant for rabbit the other meant for guinea pigs. I compared them to Mazuri tortoise and these actually look pretty darn good? They don't look like rabbit pellets either they look like regular feed almost like mazuri but with some color I guess.

Hey, can someone with experience with this comment? Any problems with feeding these as staples, or ingredients in them that raise red flags or long term issues?

FIRST ONE (RAINBOW RABBIT PELLETS 4lbs bag):

Ingredients:
Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Ground Oats, Soy Hulls, Ground Wheat, Ground Flax Seed, Soybean Meal, Dried Cane Molasses, Salt, Whole Cell Algae Meal (source of DHA), Fructooligosaccharide, Soy Oil, DL-Methionine, L-Lysine, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Yeast Extract, Dicalcium Phosphate, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Vitamin A Supplement, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Rosemary Extract, Citric Acid, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), L-Carnitine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Dried A. oryzae Fermentation Extract (source of protease), Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Artificial Color. Manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts and other tree nuts.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) ...............................14.0%
Crude Fat (min.) ....................................3.0%
Crude Fiber (min.)..................................16.0%
Crude Fiber (max.) .................................20.0%
Moisture (max.) ....................................12.0%
Calcium (min.).......................................0.4%
Calcium (max.) ......................................0.6%
Phosphorus (min.) ..................................0.35%
Salt (min.) ........................................0.25%
Salt (max.) ........................................0.75%
Vitamin A (min.) .............................3000 IU/lb.
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min)............................0.5%
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min) ...................0.05%
L-Carnitine (min)................................25 mg/kg

SECOND ONE (RAINBOW GUINEA PIG feed 2.5lbs bag):

Ingredients:
Sun-cured Alfalfa Meal, Wheat Middlings, Ground Oats, Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Ground Wheat, Ground Flax Seed, Dried Cane Molasses, Soy Oil, Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Whole Cell Algae Meal (source of DHA), Fructooligosaccharide, Potassium Chloride, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), DL-Methionine, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Magnesium Oxide, Mixed Tocopherols (a preservative), Yeast Extract, L-Lysine, Vitamin A Supplement, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of vitamin K activity), Rosemary Extract, Citric Acid, Cholecalciferol (source of vitamin D3), Copper Sulfate, L-Carnitine, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Calcium Iodate, Dried A. oryzae Fermentation Extract (source of protease), Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus licheniformis Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus subtilis Fermentation Product, Cobalt Carbonate, Sodium Selenite, Artificial Color. Allergen information: Manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts and other tree nuts.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) ..................18.0%
Crude Fat (min.) .......................3.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) ....................14.0%
Moisture (max.) .......................12.0%
Ascorbic Acid (min.).................200 ppm
Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min)...............0.5%
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min) ......0.05%
L-Carnitine (min)...................25 mg/kg

I am glad we're finally having a conversation about mazuri tortoise pellets. This is a subject that has been ignored on this forum for far too long; and is now finally coming to light. Hey I am curious... does anyone here use Mazuri tortoise pellets for their cyclura?

Wow I'm glad finally someone bothers to read the post before they reply, or even actually read the TITLE before they reply!

I do as PART of their mix but not exclusively. I mix Reptivite or ZooMed Iguana diet, Mazuri Tortoise Chow, and a handful of Primate Chow all in 5 gallon buckets and add water. I make it of a consistancy where it's semi-hard and will hold a shape. My employees then feed each lizard the desired amounts depending on size. I have been using this mixture the last 10 years with great success in reproduction. I also add Osteoform about once a week but in breeding and egglaying time I add the calcium at least 4 times weekly. Every year I have Dr. Mader run blood values on random lizards or if I even THINK one may have a problem of any sort. Thus far my blood values have been excellent...About once a week I give them veggies as a treat. The stool of my lizards closely resembles stool I've seen in wild Cyclura populations....
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

BTW I use rabbit pellets as a substrate for my baby albino Green Iguanas and baby Cyclura if their inside. People have told me they've had impactions in Chuckawallas, Uromastix, etc from using pellets. I'VE NEVER HAD EVEN ONE PROBLEM FROM USING RABBIT PELLETS AS A SUBSTRATE HOWEVER...
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Tom, do you think impactions likely occur when water isn't available? Kismet loves dry food and doesn't want to eat it if it has been soaked, but she also drinks a lot of water. It's so funny to watch because she often sticks her entire head in the bowl, though I always seem to miss that part on camera.

I'm not sure what might cause impactions as I've never had a problem....thanks
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Lack of water and heat definitely cause impaction. They need both to be able to pass the food. I had one of my iguanas get impacted once with the zoomed iguana diet because of this when I first started feeding pellets. I had many iguanas in the cage at the time and I hadn’t taken into consideration that the dominant female had chosen her spot right next to the water bowl. She wouldn’t let the lesser female near it. I was able to reverse the impaction by forcing feeding her a few CCs of water per day along with a little bit of mineral oil (in both ends) until she was flushed out. I seperated them and added more watering stations after I figured out what was happening. I feed mainly pellets now and she has never had a reoccurrence.

The reasons chuckwallas and uro's impact is because they dont drink or at least the ones I ever kept never did even when water was present. They get their moisture from plant sources, so it would be silly to feed dry food those species.

No disrespect intended here, and I greatly appreciate your advise and respect your knowledge, but last time you told me you use Mazuri tortoise diet mixed with Rep-cal iguana pellets and that was it. You didn't say anything about primate diet or zoo med or any of the other stuff?
Again, no disrespect but just rather confused as to what you really use.

Actually I do put Reptical not reptivite as I remembered the name wrong. The primate chow is only used with a handfull per 5 gallon bucket and I doubt it matters one way or the other on that [it just smells good]. It's too high in protein to give in any quantity. ZooMed is used sometimes as a substitute for Reptical. I don't and doubt anyone has EXACTLY the same food or the same quantity ever feeding. Essentially I think you shouldn't say I'm only going to feed this exact diet all the time and I'm not sure that Reptical is better than ZooMed or vice versa. If you have specific questions call me at 239-645-9661 as I'm rarely on the forums as this time of year is critical for a lot of projects including albino Iguanas so I only check these about once a week or so. It's also not clear why you think the brands are so important as all are reasonbly good. Iguanas as individuals sometimes like to eat one brand over another but most commercial diets are adequate. The Mazuri Tortoise Chow never changes and likely just that would work without the other stuff. I used to keep dry pellets of Mazuri in the cages in addition to the wet feedings but I stopped doing it about 3 years ago. Again I don't think it matters. I'm sure others don't feed exactly like I do and also are successful.
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Sounds decent. Usually the difference between rabbit and guinea pig pellets is that guinea pig has added vit. C because they cannot synthesize it for themselves.

What brand is that you are posting? I like the probiotics in it (even though probiotics are not "proven" to do anything. _

It is called "Exact Rainbow Rabbit Food" by Kaytee. I notice that most everything and even the ratios are very similar to mazuri. I know this brand is available here but not sure if this specific product. I hope I can get it. The problem I guess is that it has less calcium to phosphorus so you would have to supplement with calcium, not hard.

Again, it looks OK to me, but I am not sure if it is OK to feed and I'd really like to hear someone more experienced like Mark M comment on this.

How many green iguanas do you own?

Either one is fine. I wouldn't spend too much time splitting hairs over one ingredient being 3rd in one brand and 4th in another. I use pure zoo med adult for most of my cycluras. For my rhino's and one massive male caymanensis I use half zoo med and half rabbit pellets to save money because of the volume of food they consume. All the ctenosauras eat zoomed juvenile dry food. If I run out of zoomed I will feed rabbit pellets until I get my next load. You also don't need to dampen food as long as a bowl of water is available. They will drink. I didn't care for Mazuri, because I didn't think the ingredients were as good, it made their crap a weird wet consistency, and attracted a massive amount of flies outdoors if I couldn't get to cleaning their waste for a few hours. I also did a test and gave the cyclura a bowl of greens and a bowl of dry food at the same time. They went for the dry food first, but then, they have been on the dry food for years and have developed a real liking for it.

So you would say that the ones I listed both were fine? And that is assuming that I will feed exclusively, not mix half/half with zoo med.

I wasn't so much splitting hairs about whether the ingredients were first or third or whatnot. Just wanted to make sure there aren't any particular ingredients on the list (particularly those lower down) that just raise red flags and should not be fed at all.

Is it as long as they don't have meat that it should be ok?

Just to add, for example, dog food would be a no-no. Since rabbits are herbivorous, that should be fine fed exclusively over long term with no ill effects?

If I was gonna feed dry food, I'd moisten it up because sometime they don't drink enough water just like people do. Sometime, they'd rather being doing something else like laying around or exploring the room if you let them out, and couple that with eating some more dry food that can really dehydrate your animals.

Huh? Man, sometimes you type crazy. You are mixing up lizards and people. Lizards do what they need to do. As long as their environment is suitable they do what is instinctual. When its not suitable they do what ever their reptile brains and instinct can figure out to survive. Not a chance you can convince me that they are lazy and purposely not do something they need to do. They are not wired like that.

jf

I do soak all my dry food.

To clarify I do soak all my pellets, but just experimented with feeding dry a couple times to see if they would take it since people like Tom and Mark have said that they feed dry. I have also used rep-cal pellets dry, but they were just a little bit sprinkled on a wet salad, which ended up making them soft anyway as they rested on the wet green veggies.

I mainly feed dry because it is lasts longer that way especially in the summer when it rains almost every day. I can understand the confusion and skepticism some of you may have but here are the facts. If you are going to feed pellets, whether offered moistened or dry you must have clean fresh water available for them to drink at all times. If you don’t think they are drinking then show them where the water is at, or change the location of the water bowl, and believe me, this stuff makes them thirsty. They will drink. Once they figure out the routine: They eat pellets, they get thirsty, they drink water, they poop. It’s a beautiful thing…LOL

It probably would be safe, but I know the zoo med stuff and probably some of the other reptile specific foods were made for reptiles so I personally feel better giving it to my lizards. Who knows if there would be any long term health issues if any if a rabbit food exclusive diet was used. I do know though, that I have been using zoo med for about 16 years and have seen no problems, and I use the rabbit pellets as a filler for those lizards that want to eat me out of house and home.

I also have never experienced any lizard dehydrating, or becoming constipated from dry food as long as water was available. If you are someone who forgets to, or doesn't regularly give water to your iguanas, then you should be feeding your iguanas greens.

NOt a lot of iguana will eat the rabbit pellets alone.... I only added to the salad to add more protein to the salad. If I add too much of the pellets, he won't eat the salad as much. Adding more fruits seems to help and to get those that won't initially eat the the pellets or the alfalfa leaves, but you don't want to use too much fruits because of high level of phosphorous. A lot of People add fruits to the salad to boost the moisture content of the salad, not just to make it taste better.

When mine was younger, he'll eat almost anything I put in his dish. But recently, he's been a little finicky. If I don't give him the hard veggies, he barely touches his leafy green veggies. However, If I give him some grated parsnips and winter squash, he eats those first and later finish off the greens...heaping amount of it. It seems like they stimulate his appetite, so he'll finish off the greens. I feed the hard veggies separately. Once he's done, he snacks on the heaping pile of greens all day. A year ago, I only fed him the greens and noticed he wasn't very interested in food that much. He's was getting kindda skinny. He would eat here and there, but not in great amount like he used to eat. Sometime he would consecutively eat day to day, but not a lot. Then I started adding winter squash to his salad.... I couldn't believe my eyes! He ran over to food dish like a pack of crazy dogs and gobble the hold thing. So I started adding some green beans and parsnips when ever I could. Right now he seems to inhale the hard veggies when he eats...like fritters on fat farms. [chuckle]

I did try zoo med but they seem not to like it. As you said if I were to just leave the zoo med in there and wait they probably will eat it after a week or something, and you said they wouldn't starve and I believe you. I just don't feel like going through that process, and zoo med isn't cheap here either.

You and other knowlefgeable people said that they eat dry and will drink. I believe you. I have been feeding wet and mixed with vegetables, and only recently experimented with feeding dry and providing water. Haven't decided yet, but I do respect your experience and know that you know what you're talking about.

Bottom line is dry food is a convenience. What could be better than fresh food? If you start with dry food on one side and fresh on the other, all other things being equal (nutritionally), fresh food is preferable. Assuming you have pets, rather than breeders, and your bottom line is nutrition, then use fresh food. If your bottom line is convenience, but you want what's convenient for you to be as nutritionally beneficial as possible, then finding the best dry food scenario makes sense.

All I can say then is don't feed you iguana's dry food if your worried about your iguana going through a little temporary harmless discomfort. Nuff said,..........new topic.

Never! There is no other topic...Only Mazuri tortoise chow or whatever its called. If we must speak of something else, let it be ZooMed iguana pellets.

I have noticed a color difference between the....
it was funnier in my head. never mind

jf

So I like green poop as opposed to black poop..Consistancy is the SAME..Yes I can read minds...LOL
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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Seriously though guys, what's tamer... a Rhino or a Cuban? I've heard that hybrids are the tamest, though.

In my opinion Cyclura are lizards that are individuals and ANY ONE lizard could be the BEST in terms of tame. There is a HIGHER percentage of TAME C. nubila ssp and hybrids than in cornuta. I do have 4 C. cornuta though that are as laid back, personable, and tame as any Cyclura I've seen anywhere. My Cyclura and albino and het Green Iguanas are the ONLY reptiles that truly are pets in addition to producing nice offspring annually. Patty has given them the same status as Elvis our beloved cat. Rosco is one I produced that she personally raised from a hatchling and he is her favorite but Fred we love as well. They get Thanksgiving and Christmas goodies just as we do. Often I see her inside sitting with one in her lap as she pets and talks to them. I must admit albeit I've had many hundreds of thousands of herps I never really thought of many as pets but Cyclura have always held a special place in my heart.

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Tom Crutchfield
www.tomcrutchfield.com

Bayzow and I were joking. We were making light of the endless obsessing on insignificant detail and re-chewing of topics that have been covered to death
in previous posts, if anyone bothered to check. We may have been too subtle.
sorry if we offended or were not funny enough.

jf

I think the revisitation of topics is due to this forum outdated style. I am sure you have tried using the search function before. I don't try as you can not search a specific forum and what search returns you have are tiresum(sp?) to go through. I am crossing my fingers that the forums are updated to a more standard forum so threads can stay at the top when a reply is made. Heck, I haven't ever been to the second page and wouldn't know if any one replied to a older thread as it wouldn't jump back to the top. I think if the forum was updated we would have less of this. Would anyone realize if somebody posted a question to a thread on the third page? It would also be nice if this site updated the forums, as if you were building a cage or talking about a certain specimen of yours, a year later you could update the thread with new pics or info and it would be back on the top. I am crossing my fingers

Joel, thank you.