Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've got a dragon like 9 months old and is and I'm letting her brumate but the vet said to keep all the lights and heat on but im going with a regular bulb 8 hours a day untill she wants to bask again or 2 or 3 months.
She has coccidea the vet says its not safe to completely kill all the coccidea but shes losing like a 1.5 grams every 10 days. Whats average gram weight lose for a healthy beardie during brumation? my books say they lose little to no weight. I just want to be on top of when to be concerned. Also how much weight lose is too much over full brumation? Thanks if you answer my questions. Happy new year

You need a new vet. If you keep the light and heat on, she may lay around motionless, but she is metabolizing and will continue to lose weight. She needs to be cool so her bodily functions slow down. I have almost no weight loss over brumation. You should treat the coccidia before you brumate a dragon.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

I agree with moon. Follow his advice and get a new vet.

Your vet needs to go back to school.

Can coccidea be killed all the way? I've heard yeah but probotics are a must. New year new vet

I say no. It needs to be kept to acceptable levels. Not sure how brumation and the slowing down of the system would affect it. I do know that dragons should be in top shape before putting them in brumation, and that means no coccidia. Any decent vet should know that.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

I have a dragon I imported from Europe. The stress of the trip caused it to flare up. I used Parazap. The fecal after a full treatment was exactly the same as the fecal after. Use meds to treat the situation.
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www.moonstonedragons.com

my vet said the coccidea levels were safe but not to change basking side heat temps and always offer greens, but Kia is sleeping all day and night on the cool side so yesterday I went with my gut and cut off all light for now but still watch her weight if she keeps losing grams I'm going to try a new vet. I think my vet is anti-breeding of beardies especially ones with coccidea and told me to ask a breeder about weither she going to develop eggs after brumation and I think she recommended the light and heat so she won't go through fertilization process. anyways no light or heat and there shouldn't be weight lose. thnaks again

very small levels of coccidia are fine, providing the dragon is healthy otherwise. Any stress can allow the coccidia flare up to dangerous levels.

During brumation, you want temps 75F or less during the day and between 60-70F at night. its fine having lights on 8 hours a day, just reduce the wattage so temperatures don't go over 75F in the cool end of the tank. However many people place the dragon into a completely dark place without any lights or heat for 2-3 months without any harmful effects. The idea is to keep the dragon cool so it goes into a hibernation state...Once in this state weight loss should be extremely minimal. I would say less than 10g a month.

When my dragon brumated, she was in temps around 70F or less and stayed in deep brumation for 3-5 months. Though I didn't weight her before and after every year (or the dragon I had before her) the times I did, the weight loss was no more than 30g. She was a full grown adult of about 450g or so, so the weight loss was less than 10% of her total body weight.

If your dragon is loosing a gram of weight every day...and lethargic...most likely something else is going on than brumation. Treatments for coccidia can be harsh and it can take awhile for a dragon to recover from it. Make sure he's getting a probiotic and plenty of liquid to get appetite back. I would be less inclined to allow it to go into brumation and keep temps up at proper levels, and plenty of bright lights in the tank and even in the room, so the dragon doesn't associate a dark room despite a light cage as time to brumate.

As for egg laying being stimulated by brumation...they don't always produce eggs even if brumated and often dragons will lay eggs without it too. SO even if your vet is against breeding, it doesn't mean the female won't produce eggs. Only if she's been with a male will she have fertile eggs.

Alot of vets are against breeding as more often than not, most people who decide to breed do it more on a whim or due to carelessly keeping males and females together, and babies end up suffering in the long run. A single bearded dragon can produce 100 eggs in one year, that is alot of mouths to feed, not to mention finding space for and new homes. So I can see why your vet would not be supportive of breeding. He probably gets alot of poorly treated pets or knows all the local shelters are full of unwanted animals, from cats and dogs to exotics of every kind. Saying he's against breeding doesn't mean he's a bad vet, just one who is well aware that there are huge amounts of animals being born who end up dead, or abandoned because irresponsible owners can't care for them or don't want to be bothered finding good homes, or just not breeding.

This isn't to say you or many other people who come here are not responsible breeders who take the extra time to ensure all their pets are properly cared for and all babies go to good homes. However between these forums and the chat rooms...as well as other areas, I have encountered many people who's only reason to breed their animal, is a simple 'wanted to try it out for fun'...Breeding shouldn't be 'for fun'. Especially with a species as prolific as bearded dragons.

I have bred reptiles before but always in small numbers, and I haven't bred dragons. I could have, I certainly have the knowledge to do it successfully but I never really had the space, time or money to care for 50-100 or more babies, much less confidence I could find homes for that many babies within 6 weeks of their birth. The reptile shows have tons of bearded dragon breeders, the local classifieds always have baby bearded dragons for sale...most nothing special in coloration etc...but I saw this as a sure sign the market is rather gutted in my area. If I sold all the babies, I doubt I would break even on the cost of caring for so many babies.

However If a person takes the time to research, is prepared for the space, cost and likelihood have having to keep babies who don't sell right away even into adulthood, then I certainly have nothing against them wanting to try their hand at breeding. If its just to have the experience of breeding a reptile, I definitely suggest they pick up a gecko, whether its a leopard gecko or crested gecko, or any other reptile who isn't likely to lay so many eggs as bearded dragons. Crested geckos are great for this as they are painfully easy to care for...aren't expensive, not hard to find at any pet store or reptile show (which will be alot cheaper), even adults aren't that expensive..they are easy to keep, don't' take alot of space and lay between 6-10 eggs a year. Very easy to get them to breed and incubate the eggs but give the same experience of breeding a reptile and caring for the babies till a new home is found. With such a small number of eggs per clutch (typically just 2 per clutch) the new breeder isn't overwhelmed by eggs and babies.

sorry for the long post...just had alot to say. Just keep in mind this isnt' directed towards anybody specifically..I know many of you are successful and wonderful breeders who focus on the health of the adults and babies they keep/produce. I am also certain you have fun doing it too...but more importantly love the animals you are breeding/keeping.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

man I'm glad you answer questions. thanks and your view on dragons hatching by 50 to 1oo is overkill for just fun I know I;m going to lose miney if I breed but love the morphs and colors and health is first. thanks again

I am going by average eggs laid and average number of clutches...Not by hatch rates. Of course its possible to just incubate 10 eggs and destroy all other eggs lain...so a breeder only has 10 babies to deal with, even if the dragon continues to lay more clutches for the rest of the egg laying season.

My female dragon, who I feel is average length and weight...about 18-19" long, around 475g, during her third year, laid over 100 eggs spread over 5 clutches. Clutch size varied from only 18 eggs to 33 eggs.

Even going the low end of clutch number and size, you can still easily get 30 eggs. However, average clutch size seems to be more around 20 eggs and maybe 4 clutches in the season. How old and the size of the dragon will affect number of eggs and clutches, as well as the overall health of the female dragon.

I certainly am not against breeding... I have done it myself, but I wish all people try to be responsible breeders. Whether their goal is to make money, produce the next designer morph, help save a species from extinction or even just for the ultimate test of their husbandry skills, breeders need to know in advance, what they intend to do to ensure all offspring go to good homes.

Being responsible means doing the following:

-research care and special needs of the animal to breed them

-ensure animals are healthy and as unrelated as possible (if not trying to bring out a recessive trait, best to ensure they are unrelated)

-know the clutch/litter size averages of the species being bred

-have a plan on how to sell babies once old enough to go (where to advertise, reptile shows, local petstores/wholesellers etc. and make sure these are valid)

-have incubator(s) ready early and tested (before breeding starts)

-purchase caging for babies (hatchling racks, tubs, UVB fixtures, heat lights/heat tape, feed/water bowls etc.) Make sure you have enough for more than average clutch size.

-have several feeder/food suppliers lined up, go as local as possible to cut on shipping costs. (especially important for live feeders like crickets)

-make sure you have places to store feeders (be it tubs for crickets, or freezer for frozen rodents)

-save money to be used strictly for breeding project (to pay for bins, UVB bulbs, heating, food, supplements, extra tubs/racks if clutches are larger than expected. Vet checks/treatments if needed. When you think you have enough, save more.

Saving money and dedicating it to your breeding project is very important. As it can take 6 months from putting animals into brumation and waking them up before you see the first clutch hatching...many things can happen. Over the last few years it wasn't unusual to have people post here saying they need the cheapest cricket supplier online cause they have babies to feed but no money due to lost job etc... Following the steps above will ensure they have the cheapest cricket supplier even before the eggs are laid. And money to pay for food already put aside. If hard times require using the 'breeding' money, then the project should be discarded as humanely as possible...destroy unhatched eggs by freezing or crushing, babies can be euthanize at the vets or CO2 container. Animals shouldn't be starved or frozen once out of the egg. Reptiles can still feel the cold even if their bodies slow down alot faster than ours does.

I am probably being far more long winded than I need to be..but for an idea of cost...just on food, it can range quite a bit.

For 20 babies eating say an average of 25 crickets a day (spread over 3-4 feedings..and personally I think this is a low number, I am sure the breeders here can pipe in on how much a baby dragon can eat) thats 500 crickets a day eaten.

So a weeks supply of crickets would be 3500. If each 1000 box of crickets goes for about $10, that's $35 per week just for food and this doesn't include shipping or taxes..so it could easily be $40 per week. As most breeders like to stick to the 6" rule (don't sell babies under 6" in length) it could be 3-5 weeks before they reach that age and even if sold all at once, it means spending $105 to $175. But this can quickly go up even more if those 20 babies end up eating 50 crickets a day or you have 30 babies. Also, if you have more than one clutch, the next batch is likely to hatch 2-4 weeks after the first clutch hatches.

So, for money put away, I certainly recommend having at least $200 per 20 eggs saved up for food alone.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

you have a good point but where in the world do you buy 1000 crickets for $10 that made my jaw drop I was planning $25 to 20 per 1000.

I was basing that on Ghann's advertised price for 2000 crickets...which would be about $10.49 per 1000 but I just rounded down to $10 to make it easier to calculate costs. The good cost for 1000 crickets there though can quickly be offset by shipping, if the person lives on the other side of the country..Saving a few bucks per 1000 won't mean much if you have to pay $30 more in shipping. Its not too hard to figure out shipping costs...though feeder companies would get a better rate due to being frequent shippers I expect...compared to what you can figure out on the American Post Office website or the Canadian Post site...for overnight shipping.
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PHLdyPayne

Forum Princess

A friend and I bred our dragons 'for fun' however we were 'responsible' and froze killed all but 4 of the eggs at lay.
We wanted to breed and raise a dragon from the egg, but knew 50-100 dragons would be chaos.
His girl only laid 2 clutches that year, the second one was frozen off completely.