Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a yearling,(he is about 6') albino male burm, Kaa, who has always been a very picky eater. He was a small hatchling and wouldn't feed on his own in the beginning. He refsued all food, until he finally started taking small live mice, and then refused anything else but those for the longest time, even though he could eat up to 10 in a sitting. I finally got him to take mice scented live rat pups and then eventually live hopper & small rats. Again, he was very hard to convince to take larger prey, and it was a huge relief when he finally started taking large live rats.

He now takes freshly killed prey (rats) most of the time, but still steadfastly refuses frozen thawed, even when warmed, wiggled, rubbed on live, rubbed on fresh kills, brained, or fed in tandem after a smaller live or freshly killed meal. He Will grab and constrict the frozen thawed item sometimes, only to leave it uneaten later.

He is on large rats now, and I really don't want to have to move up to freshly killed Rabbits & G-pigs if he refuses to make the switch, and I would rather not have to find him a new home. He has great color, and is extremely docile and easy to handle. He doesn't seem to have any health issues, but I know he could being that he was a small hatching that refused to feed & had a depression in his side, and his low prey drive & exceptionally docile temperament could mean something isn't quite right.

Does anyone else have any experience with picky burms, and success stories about switching them over to frozen thawed prey?

Hi!
If he's eating fresh-killed I wouldn't dare offer him anything else live. Even if he refuses to eat F/K or F/T for the next few months, ride it out & he'll come around.

In my experience with Burms males seem to be more likely to be picky eaters than females. And it's possible for him to outgrow this spell and become one of the best feeders you've ever seen.

I had a young male near the size/age as yours that wouldn't take anything but live. He went off feed during breeding season the following year (first time for him) and 5 months later showed interest in a F/K rat but wouldn't take it. Once a week I offered a F/K and he finally snatched it up after going 7 months without eating. No problem switching him over to F/T afterwards & he became one of my best eaters.

How are you thawing/heating frozen rats? It generally helps to heat the rats' body temperature to high 90's or a tad more. Sometimes I've had to prime the snake with a small F/K and have a nicely warmed F/T ready to put in their face as they're swallowing the first rat's tail. Just be careful not to intimidate the snake by continually shoving the rat in it's face. Anytime you're trying to get a snake to switch prey it's best to start out with smaller prey items.

I've had many snakes wrap but not eat prey. Both, fresh-killed & frozen-thawed. Sometimes they'll take them again if offered to them right after they release them. Sometimes I remove, reheat & re-offer it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, give the rat to another snake and try again a week later.

If the snake gets sick with RI or loses a lot of weight fast and it hasn't eaten in quite awhile, you may have to cave in to their desires in order to get some need nourishment. One year without eating and still in relatively decent health, though a bit thin, isn't unheard of.

One last suggestion that makes everyone think (or know) that I'm nuts: Try washing a thawed rat with warm water and a lil' bit of Ivory soap. Preferably the white bar soap. F/T rodents have a different odor than live or F/K. Also, sometimes in the euthanization process of frozen rodents the rodents will urinate on each other, creating an odor. I've had rats that my garbage disposal Burm wouldn't even look at - washed them with Ivory and she ate 'em all. Works on getting stubborn hatchlings to feed, too.

Best wishes!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I'll give some of those suggestions a try.

The frozen thawed I'd offered were heated either in water or under a heat lamp prior to being offered to him. I am not new to transitioning snakes to take frozen thawed prey, but this guy has been my toughest holdout yet that I still hope to get switched over. He has no interested in any other prey besides what he is currently eating - domestic rats. I dare not offer a mouse again, for fear of him going back to wanting them by the bucketload!

I have tried birds (chicken & quail) in the past, both live & dead & even butchered, chicken and turkey broth dipped rodents, other rodent species (African Soft furs, Gerbils, Hamsters) with absolutely no results.

I'll give the soap a go next time I feed.

Yeah, a stubborn one comes along every now & then. If you're experiencing problems more with getting him to take rats thawed in water (wet) you might try letting them thaw to room temperature & then heating them with a lamp to around 100°F. I've had some Burms that wouldn't touch a wet rat.

I know it sounds mean but I believe it's best to ride it out & not cave in to him. It would be different if we were talking about a sick snake. Also, I wouldn't spend much time danicin' the rat around to simulate live or else you'll be doing it every time you feed him. All of my snakes, except for some of my aggravatin' Ball Pythons, will either snatch the rat as it enters the cage or eat it after I simply lay it on the cage floor.

I've never had any luck with scenting with chicken broth. You might try using a raw chicken thigh or drumstick to rub over the F/T rats. However, I suggest avoiding adding another factor (chicken scent) to an already complicated situation.

While you're in the transitioning process I suggest getting a few 1/2lb. rabbits and offering them from time to time. Another year and you'll be doing the same thing with rats as you were doing with mice - feeeding it a bucket load in order to make it a meal. I strongly suggest not feeding them guinea pigs. Why go from mice to rats, rats to GPs, GPs to rabbits? And why take a chance on the snake getting hung up on GPs? Rats & rabbits are more readily available, easier to raise, etc... I've found it easier to get Burms switched over to rabbits when they're in the 7 - 8ft range.

I wish you the best! Please let me know how it goes.

Take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

I am going to say that this guy is a little trickier then I made it seem maybe - He eats once a month at best, not weekly. If I offer prey "too often" for his tastes, he simply hides from it, and will not come out, live or not, and then will skip the next feeding.

Ive tried dancing it around, leaving it overnight, heating wet & dry and so on.

He is not skinny. He was initially as a hatchling, and refused to start & required force fed so he wouldn't starve. Then he finally took the mice after a month or so. His temps are right, and he should feel secure in his habitat. I have another burm (a 15ft female albino) who is a whole in the ground as far as food, and a male cross who is also quite picky, but not this bad. The female is NOT housed in the same room as the 2 males.

Guinea pigs aren't a problem for me to acquire. I often have access to them over rabbits.

Ive gotten a longnose snake to take mice, and other picky species to transition to other prey items, but this guy is mostly frustrating because I wouldn't have expected such a picky eater for a burm.

I'll keep trying!

Interesting.....

I don't want to insult your intelligence or experience but I'm going to try to be thorough in case someone with less experience is reading this.

I may be wrong but I strongly believe that you're not just dealing with a picky eater situation. I'd bet money that the root of the issue is his emotional status.

Posted by ravenspirit: "...as a hatchling, and refused to start (eating) & required force fed... ...If I offer prey "too often" for his tastes, he simply hides from it, and will not come out, live or not, and then will skip the next feeding."

I'd guess that you rarely handle him and pretty much leave him be so you don't disturb him or stress him out. That works in some situations but not all. I'm having a hard time overlooking the possible emotional trauma from force-feeding, but he may already be over that.

* I suggest you keep his cage at 82°F on the cool side and 92° on the warm. I normally go 80° on the cool side but wouldn't in this case because I'd want to keep his metabolism up.
* Make sure humidity doesn't get below 45%.
* Remove all hides. This includes not letting him get under newspaper substrate.
* Keep cage in a low traffic area.
* Handle him once every 3 days or so. Starting out with just a few minutes each handling session. After a week or two you can handle it every other day, but I wouldn't do it every day as it can be counterproductive.

Those are pretty much the basics of taming a Burm and I'm sure you already knew how to do that. Although you're not really wanting to "tame him," you want to "earn" his trust. I don't think he trusts you. I get the impression that he thinks you're gonna shove somethin' down his throat every time you open it's cage.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

"I don't want to insult your intelligence or experience but I'm going to try to be thorough in case someone with less experience is reading this."

Not insulted at all, and I thank you for giving your suggestions & advice.

I agree this guy has more going on then just being a picky eater. He did require force fed because he was loosing weight and not showing any "normal" feeding behaviors.

He is used to handling, (Initially he was a no-touch snake, for fear of stressing him and turning him off food) but he has even done some programs with us now, and doesn't seem the least bit put off by people. He is not head shy, and actually that has been a concern - most snakes (healthy snakes) shy away when they have their heads & faces touched. This guy doesn't. He has been to a herp vet several times, and each time got a clean bill of health.

His cage is 4' X 18" X 32", kept at 80F ambient, with a basking spot of 98F. He rarely uses the basking spot. I'll warm it up some if you think it would help. I know his humidity is right because he always molts without problems & is in a temp/humidity controlled room. I will take away his hide if you think it will help, but he rarely uses it anymore. Hes otherwise kept on cypress mulch, no newspaper. The only "regular" traffic in the room is really me, and he is situated in a corner of the room.

This past feeding on frozen thawed was another no go, even when it was cleaned with the soap, dried off & heated up.

I admit to being "weak" and broke down & the day after provided him with a freshly prekilled large rat, and he took that right off the tongs, right away. I'll wait him out for the next feeding and see if that, (possibly missing a month if he refuses) has any affect on getting him to "make the switch".

(I am used to snakes not feeding for multiple months for the record - both my large male Burm/Indian cross & Argentine boa generally go off food from October to March/April - I just get anxious when young snakes without the mass of the larger animals do that, hence my wimping out & providing Kaa with the freshly killed rat)

"This past feeding on frozen thawed was another no go, even when it was cleaned with the soap, dried off & heated up."

Did you cuss me after going through all that for nothing? ("Dang, stupid, hillbilly!" Ha! Ha!

From your last message I now see that you've pretty much run the gamut, tryin' just about everything in the book, and then some. I really admire your efforts, perserverance and determination. If more keepers would be as diligent to seek, explore, this hobby would be in a better position. And so would our captives. I tip my hat to you! Laura, who posted further down in this thread has shown the same tenacity with the burm she mentioned.

If were you, as long as getting fresh-killed rats isn't too much a problem, I'd just continue trying to gradually win him over to F/T. It may take several months or longer, but it could also happen soon.

I'd prime him with a small F/K and have a nicely warmed F/T ready to put in his mouth, right against the first rat's butt, as he's swallowing. If you miss the chance to get the F/T rat in his mouth while he's still swallowing wait 1 - 2 minutes for him to get get the first rat further down and since it was a small meal hopefully "feeding mode" will kick in & he'll take the F/T without thinking.

I wouldn't thaw out more than 1 or 2 rats per feeding in case he refuses them and you have to toss 'em out. In this case it's nice to have another snake that eats the same size prey so you can feed them instead of wasting the rat(s).

This time next year he'll most likely have matured and might go off feed for breeding season. Then you can play the game of "chicken" (who gives in first) and offer nothing but F/T, like I mentioned in my first post.

I don't know if the high temp you mentioned was a typo or not but I'd keep the hot end at 92°. I have increased overall cage temps with snakes that were having feeding issues in order to increase their metabolism, which may well be what you're doing. I suggest not going beyond the ranges of 84° (cool end) - 93°/94° (hot end) and I suggest no less than 65% humidity with those temps. Actually, I've not seen any of my snakes kept under those conditions use the basking spot, basking in 93/94° temps, but I offer it to them just in case they want it. In my big cages there's enough room for them to escape that heat. Plenty of fresh water & humidity is vital.

Please keep us posted this. In your trial & efforts you may even come up with an unheard of way to get him switched over & give us all something else to put in our bag of tricks.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

"Did you cuss me after going through all that for nothing? ("Dang, stupid, hillbilly!" Ha! Ha!"

Nah, I welcome all suggestions, and am thankful of you & others on here for providing them. I'll also try the soap thing again. Just because it didn't work this time doesn't mean it wouldn't another.

"I tip my hat to you! Laura, who posted further down in this thread has shown the same tenacity with the burm she mentioned."

I read her post, and took that to heart. I'll be keeping that in mind while I work with this guy, & I'll keep trying. He hasn't taken the frozen after a live meal set up, but I have not tried getting it in there right against the freshly killed rats back end as he swallowed. Thankfully I don't have to worry about tossing uneaten prey around here, I have enough other hungry carnivorous animals where nothing ever goes to waste if a snake refuses to eat.

"I don't know if the high temp you mentioned was a typo or not but I'd keep the hot end at 92°."

No, not a typo. I had it HOT under the basking site to do exactly what you are suggesting, figuring if he wanted to utilize the temps, they were there for him. I've since dropped the basking temp back (94) after reading your post, but he still really doesn't make use of it. Humidity is nice and high, (he is housed on cypress) and he is always provided with a large water bowl as well.

"Please keep us posted this. In your trial & efforts you may even come up with an unheard of way to get him switched over & give us all something else to put in our bag of tricks."

Will do. I'll make a gleeful *It worked!* post if he ever decides to make the switch for me. So far he is still holding out and has passed up frozen again, but this time I am going to not offer freshly killed for a while and see what happens.

You don't want to offer it to many choices, if you do that it will be confused. Also, the braining and so on never worked for me. I had the same issue with my female Burm, to the point I was so frustrated, and got some good advise here. Mine did the exact same things yours did, hit it wrapped it and then left it. Give it time, and don't try to offer everyweek. Like HH said, offer a pre killed rat but while it is eating that, place a FT rat on it while it has its mouth on it. They are tricked into thinking its the same rat, and sometimes it will eat the FT without the PK. Be carful placing the rat in there after it hits the first one and wraps it. I did this for a month or so and then she was a frozen feeder. In fact I thought going to bunnies was going to be hard as well, but I dropped a rabbit in frozen thawed and came back in an hour and it was gone, that is when I was trying to figure out how I was going to get it back out of the cage without getting bit, from there she ate them off the ground. Also I found the best way to thaw them is to put them in a plastic bag have a warm bucket of water and let it thaw for a few hours. It should be warm to the touch.
The only issue I had moving a snake to a rabbit was my retic, but that thing had such a feeding response I offered it a rat first and then a rabbit, then another rat and then it would take the rabbit on the third try, that went on for the rest of the season and then when he came back into feed, like HH said no problems with just the rabbit. Good Luck, dong't get flustered because you will just stress the snake out. I have been there.
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0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger (Dash)
1.0 Amel Retic (Mahola)RIP Buddy.
0.1 Ball Python (Cyeanne)
0.1 Red Tail (Memphis)
1.0 Coral Sun Glow Boa (Rodman)
0.1 Blood Python (Danica)
1.0 Green Ananconda (Prefontain)
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa (Bing Bong)
1.0 Ivory Ball Python (Hansel)
0.1 Bumble Bee Ball Python (Sissy)
0.0.2 Yellow Ackies (Ludmilla and Ivan Drago)

"...put them in a plastic bag have a warm bucket of water..."

I've got the worst luck in keeping them dry when thawing in water. Dang water most always ends up in the bag with the rat. Ha! Ha! I think most of the time it would be due to pin holes from the rat's claws. I've even tried double-bagging & they still got wet. Room temperature and/or heat tape is all I use now. Temp guns are real handy for warming 'em up to a good temperature.

Good to see you back around!
Later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

www.natures-signature.com

Hahahaha,that happens and the worse is when it is with the rabbits then you are just wet and smell. Ya you have to be carful putting the rat in the bag, and I fill the bucket up to the top and hang the zip part over the edge of the bag. As long as I am carful it works. Its finding a bag big enough for a 8lb rabbit. I will try the heat tape and temp gun, I got some of that lying around I think. Hey send me some pics of your Monitor enclosures. I want to get an idea for when I start to build one for the BT I will end up with someday.
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0.2 Rotts
1.0 Super Tiger (Dash)
1.0 Amel Retic (Mahola)RIP Buddy.
0.1 Ball Python (Cyeanne)
0.1 Red Tail (Memphis)
1.0 Coral Sun Glow Boa (Rodman)
0.1 Blood Python (Danica)
1.0 Green Ananconda (Prefontain)
1.0 Emerald Tree Boa (Bing Bong)
1.0 Ivory Ball Python (Hansel)
0.1 Bumble Bee Ball Python (Sissy)
0.0.2 Yellow Ackies (Ludmilla and Ivan Drago)

If you get a good quality shopping bag, like from Target, and watch for the claws, it will hold a good sized rabbit nicely.

I had the same problem with my Burm who was 10yo when I got him. He was fed only live, but I wasn't into keeping rabbits around here. He would eat F/T GP and rabbits, but it was hit and miss. Then I had a local supplier for FK and that just worked better for a while. Then the supplier quite carrying rabbits. So it was back to F/T. He used to be pretty picky, but is much better now. I have found that feeding him smaller meals more often helps (he also has chronic kidney disease), so I feed him 2 med rabbits twice monthly (he is 12ft, 50#). That is about max for him.

I always want every feed to be a success, so I dry off the rabbit when it gets wet, clean off excrement or ear funk, and feed him in the evening when he's active. If he's near his shed cycle, I don't feed at all until he's completely done with the shed. (he will "kill" but not eat if he's shedding or close to it). Then I leave him alone for a few days after eating because my guy gets crabby after he eats. He hisses more and pushes with his coils. I watch him for clues about appetite, such as being more active and cruising in the evening.

So in a matter of two years, he went from being a sickly 75/25 chance live eater who would often kill but not eat to a healthier 50/50 chance FT eater, to an even healthier almost 100% FT eater.