Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was having a hypothetical conversation about hybrids, and came to the idea of crossing a Bull snake, with some sort of kingsnake. First, is it possible? and what genes would dominate? the fantasy would be like a mountain king or greyband with the size of a bull. but in reality???

It happens sometimes in the wild. I don't know anyone (other than myself) that is attempting it in captivity. A pacific gopher x cal-king hybrid found in the wild:

And another wild one, scottsdale, AZ mix of king and gopher:

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6.7 pituophis c. annectans
1.1 senticolis t. intermedia
1.1 rhinechis scalaris
1.2 lampropeltis m. thayeri
2.1 pantherophis g. guttatus
1.1 lampropeltis t. campbelli

1.1 turbo corns
1.1 jungle corns
1.1 thayeri hybrids (het albino)

great to hear,
that large picture of the baby almost looks like it has the markings of a jungle carpet python.

I'm not planning on crossing the 2 but my friend might, I have a pair of Albino gopher snakes I'm going to breed, male sonoran, female san diego, there shouldn't be any problems with this pairing right? really new to this

The Sonoran and San Diego gophers are two different subspecies. You will be creating an integrade since they are both the same species. Unless EXTREMELY unique, attactive, or dirt cheap, the integraded babies from that pairing will probably not sell well. The babies should all be albinos, unless the parents have different strains of amelanism. Some forms of amelanism/Albinism are NOT compatible and will produce normal babies. Please ensure you properly represent these animals as integrades to any buyers!!!!

Crossing subspecies or any otherwise overly similar snakes usually results in an uninteresting cross that no one will want.

I'm mainly planning doing this gopher cross, only because I got a killer deal on an albino female san diego, I already has a male albino sonoran. I did not plan on these being much more than albino gopher snakes. IF I do end up selling the offspring the buyer would be well informed that the cross was made. I would not try to pass them off for anything more than that.

Its a good thing you are not planning on them "being much more than albino gopher snakes" because that is all they will be. Odds are they wont sell well, if at all, because they are integrades. The problem will be if someone buys one even after you disclose what it is, but they breed in down the road as to what they remember it to be. They may only remember that you told them it was a sonoran, or san diegan, not a mix. Also, some one may just buy the clutch off you dirt cheap and at a bargain you will be more than willing to take after sitting on the clutch for awhile. What they do with them no one knows. Its hard enough finding legit stock of certain subspecies, please dont muddy the water more than needed!!! It would be much better if you bred them to corns or kings than to each other from this aspect.

"What they do with them no one knows. Its hard enough finding legit stock of certain subspecies, please dont muddy the water more than needed!!!"

LMAO!!,....yeah, the fact is it is not "needed" at ALL!

And another absolute fact as you already know is that those man-made crosses he is contemplating inevitably WILL be misrepresented down the line....I guaran-freakin-TEE it!!!

Many people don't know a good pure specimen of many things even if it slapped them right across the face, much less a cross that looks very similar to several different types, and could/would be sold as such at any given situation.

Just more worthless crap to be poured into any pure specimens left being bred in this hobby.

Like the hobby needs more muddied-up crosses than there already are. Here's another little something that most never think about too. Just ONE clutch of undiscernible croosed snakes when mature will produce many countless HUNDREDS to be dispersed throughout the hobby. Does anyone think that all these snakes will be bred to the exact same crosses to continue that line of crosses ONLY??............please people, use your head will ya!..LOL!!!

Yeah folks, now go ahead and dream up some good legitimate "justifications" for contaminating more gene pools. After all, it's your American "right" to do it, correct?..LMMFAO!!! ;E

Now go slander my common-sense post here, and by all means....continue to CROSS-AWAY!.......for chissakes man!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I love these discussions. I especially love it when all of us holier than thou "I guarantee all of my snakes are 100% purebred x or y species" are trying to convince someone to not breed two "subspecies" of snake together because it is going to "pollute the gene pool". Let me ask a couple of questions:
1. What gene "pool" are we referring to? Unless you are talking about the 2 actual species of snakes that there is a DNA regisrty for, then there is no "pool" that we know any real facts about. Theoretically there was at one time a 100% pure gene pool for each species of snake in the world, but in case you haven't been around this hobby long, we screwed that up about 30 years ago. If we wanted to keep these lines pure, we needed to start that back then.
2. Where did you get your current stock from? There are 3 possibilities here. A. You obtained them from someone who told you they were "pure". I'm sure they were well meaning and so were you, but that guarantee isn't worth the paper it wasn't written on. B. You caught them from a wild population yourself. In which case you are no more sure if it is 100% pure than if you obtained it from the well meaning person who guaranteed it was. Or C. You produced it yourself either from the animals from A. or from B. above, and these offspring cannot be guaranteed 100% pure any more than their parents
3. Did you have your animals DNA tested? If you say yes, please post those results for us to see. I will be the first to applaud you and say that anyone wanting to purchase 100% pure stock should be willing to pay a premium for your animals. If you say no, then please stop telling people to not do what you are already probably doing yourself.
4. Do you really think you can tell every subspecies intergrade from that of 100% pure stock just by looking at it? Firstly, you would have to have a guaranteed 100% pure stock animal to compare it to, which I'll bet you don't. Continued on next post if your not too mad

Thirdly, what about the people out there doing exactly what you are afraid of. There are people out there (we all know it is happening) that are killing all of their offspring that look just a little too different to be passed off as 100% pure. You are fooling yourself if you think you can tell the difference just by looking.
4. What are you trying to protect? Do you think that John Q. Scientist is going to come to your house and say "Excuse me sir, but we just realized that the entire population of California Kingsnakes is extinct. We know you've been breeding those, and we were wondering if you'd donate some to us to release into the wild." That's not going to happen, because John Q. Scientist has know for a long time what I've just posted. You can't prove that your snakes are 100% pure so they are not going to release them into the wild.
6. So what do I propose we do? I propose we do what the honest ones of us have been doing for the last 30 years. Breed what we think is as close to pure populations as possible and represent them as such. AND when we want something that looks different, breed something together that we think will produce what were after, AND REPRESENT IT AS SUCH. The one place I will agree needs to change is if you cannot sell what you produce because it sucks, CARE FOR IT PROPERLY UNTIL IT DIES. If you are not prepared to do that, then don't do it.
Our hobby is and always has been about the ability to produce and more importantly sell animals that we enjoy looking at and keeping. It isn't and never was about protecting a pure population of animals. Leave that to the experts. They have the knowledge and experience. Now, if you want to hook up with one of them and embark on a real scientific save a species project, I'll be the first to commend you. If you're not, stop acting like you are. And please stop putting other people down and making them feel like less a person and part of our hobby for asking a question. Shane

Your little list of pseudo "justifications" are an absolute joke my friend, .....but nice try..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

>>Your little list of pseudo "justifications" are an absolute joke my friend, .....but nice try..
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>>"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"
>>
>>my website -Serpentine Specialties

I think Dbacks51rj reply was spot on. If anythings a joke it's your pathetic reply to his post.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

I think Dbacks51rj reply was spot on. If anythings a joke it's your pathetic reply to his post

AWE JEEZ! Don't send him back to the kingsnake forum.

Ahhhh, I think he should be restricted and only be allowed on this forum. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

What's the matter Dougie Mongrel boy? LOL.

Come on Dmong, you can do better than that. I have put a little over 25 years worth of thought and practical experience into that post. I've also spent 5 years worth of time in getting an animal sciences degree and another 4 years getting a veterinary degree. not that that makes me right, but my point is there is more to this argument than "nice try". If you are unable to contribute to the discussion, don't be so quick to dismiss other people's arguments. I was on the other side of this issue for 15 years, but then I thought about it. I was listening to other people who I trusted and following their lead without forming my own opinion, which youve already read, no need in reposting that. I'll change my opinion as soon as you come up with 5 reptile breeders in the world that can legitimately and difinitively verify that the animals they are selling are "pure" If you cant even come up with 5, then how do you even have an argument at all. We are really good people, just not quite as "pure" of reptile enthusiasts as some others. Shane

That was a great post and I totally agree with you. I've been saying this for years, unfortunately they all laughed at me. What constitutes pure? It's a joke if you ask me. They just can't handle the truth.

Great posts everyone!

Thanks for the entertaining comedy!!

HAHAHA!!!!!!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Mongrel, your posts show just what a lightweight you are. Look at your comments. They show nothing of substance. The guy intellectually cut you up in pieces and that's your best comeback? You should know better than to pick a fight in the hybrid forum where you don't have your cronies attacking like a pack of jackals, a true sign of a coward.

"You should know better than to pick a fight in the hybrid forum where you don't have your cronies attacking like a pack of jackals, a true sign of a coward"

Why do you think I didn't bother to put any effort into any sort of long sensible reply "Miss Mia" tough-talker?

Now go relax with a jug of your back-woods "radiator" liquor you just made out back, along with a few Midol. It'll be okay...you'll see..

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Ok Mongrel, I just took my midol and feel much better now and this is what I dreamed of...

MY DREAMBOY!

Sorry about that, my hormones are all out of whack today. I must be entering my post menopause years. But I must admit you are one handsome man!

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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I see my short squatty friend has responded.