Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just started breeding rats for my snakes, they stink like you wouldn't believe..or maybe you would. Is it safe to use pine for something that will be fed to a snake?

I am using aspen, but am changing the cages twice a week..and going through a large pack of apsen almost as often. This is getting more costly than buying frozen feeders. A giant bale of pine is like $5.00 vs $20.00 for same size bale of aspen. And aspen is doing NOTHING for the smell.

If not pine, what about the shavings they sell for horses?

b

Pine and cedar contain phenols that are highly toxic to rodents and reptiles. Better to be safe and stay away from pine products.

I usually use shredded paper.
Rat Bedding Article

It is perfectly safe to use pine shavings. Just don't expect the pine to reduce odors much more than aspen does. Although it does smell better for about the first day.

If you get your local paper and have lots of newspaper laying around. An inexpensive paper shredder will turn that into very inexpensive bedding. Still doesn't help with the odor but does help with the expense and rats love this stuff. Great for making nests etc.

For odor I've found that buying cheap charcoal briquets and placing a couple on the top of each enclosure really cuts down on the odor.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

It is NOT perfectly safe to use pine shavings for Rats! Your rats will eventually develop cold-like symptons (ie. sneezing, runny nose, ec.) and will be miserable and unhealthy.

>>It is NOT perfectly safe to use pine shavings for Rats! Your rats will eventually develop cold-like symptons (ie. sneezing, runny nose, ec.) and will be miserable and unhealthy.

Having raised rats since the 70s....I can tell you that rats that are totally stressed or borderline health may react initially this way, if they came off something else for bedding. But that 99% of the rats I have seen are just swell on kiln dried pine, especially if they have adequate air flow.
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Sonya

1.1 Candoia Paulson
2.2 Western Hognose
1.2 Mexican Black King
1.3 Greenish Ratsnake
1.1 Yellow Ratsnake
3.1 Everglades Ratsnake
2.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Mexican Milksnake
1.1 Black Pinesnake
1.2 Sumatran Shortailed Python
1.3 Boa constrictor
2.2 Childrens Python
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0.0.2 Timor Monitor
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1.1 Sugar Glider
Numerous Dogs, Cats, Birds, Fish pets and fosters
Husband
2.1 teens plus…..
You get the picture.

LOL...been using pine for 30 years....
works for me...for everything....

always here:
chinese hamsters
Peromyscus leucopus
mice
rats
african soft furred

used for pygmy mice, russians, roborovski's, guinea pigs, chinchillas, ferrets, rabits, snakes, hedgehogs...

and I know people that used pine for snakes....$15,000 snakes....and he been around for 40 years...

so yes...PINE is fine....

...and yes...there are different types of pine...and I have used them all......

(*I have been known to throw a handful of cedar into each tank once in awhile for smell and all...once in a great while actually, but have done it..)....

....
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........JY

kept mine on it for goin on 2 years and they have all ben fine, the ones i brought in to start and any i have produced and/or kept
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www.bamreptiles.webs.com
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I've kept rats as pets for many years. They are kept in huge custom built cabinet style enclosures on recycled paper bedding. I've kept up to eighty rats at one time and they never smelled. What are your conditions like? What is their enclosure like? How many rats do you have per enclosure? Rats are very clean animals and give off very little odor, but if kept in substandard conditions the cages will smell of ammonia and feces.

Pine and cedar are not considered safe for rats. Aspen is questionable to some. Since I enjoy rats as pets my standards may be higher than that of someone who breeds solely for feeder production, but if you are what you eat, it's best to make sure your feeders are as healthy as possible.

Good luck.

I have 2 10gal tanks with 1.2 breeding rats each cage. Apsen is the bedding, Masuri is the food, I clean cage every week or it will reak out my door. I do keep the breeder males as pets as I only need the pinks for my snakes, and breed out the females every few months.

I will try the paper idea. At least the cost should go down.

b

>"I have 2 10gal tanks with 1.2 breeding rats each cage."

Your odor problem could be, at least partially, caused by overcrowding. A 10 gallon tank is not large enough to house 1 rat, let alone 3.

Let's do the math; a typical 10 gallon tank measures 19.75" long X 10" wide X 12" tall = 2,370 cubic inches. Rats require a minimum of 2 cubic feet each (2 cubic feet = 3,456 cubic inches). Since, 2,370 cubic inches divided by 3,456 cubic inches = 0.6857638, that means that a 10 gallon tank can only house about two-thirds of one rat.

A 10 gallon tank is OK for housing mice, but is much too small for rats.

I used to have rats, and yes I did keep them in 10 gallon tanks, until I learned that was not allowed by the Humane Society. I no longer have rats. I currently have mice. Once I get some new, much larger, cages built I intend to restart a new smaller rat colony.

Sorry, but completely disagree. I have seen MANY Pro-rat breeders and the totes they use are half the size of a 10 gal fish tank.. Lab Rats are kept in even smaller cages.. And as for the Humane Society, that also is untrue with rats and mice.. No lab or biology department would be able to house them if such a law was enforced. If you look at most Animal treatment laws, mice and rats are ALWAYS excluded in most areas of the country. Just as reptiles are excluded from Cruelty laws in the US (rattlesnake roundups would end).

Actually, what SnakeyLakey says about overcrowding is true. A ten gallon is too small for three adult rats- if you want your rats to be healthy and happy. However, if your rats are used solely for the production of food, that isn't exactly a priority. I would equate this debate, though on a smaller scale, to factory farming vs. pasture raising food animals.

So, since we come from two different standpoints, I'll try to leave my little bleeding heart out of this and address the real issues. A ten gallon aquarium is not well ventilated enough for most small animals, especially three adult rats. The excrement produced is in a smaller, concentrated area and so will create a smell faster. Even with a screen lid, the odors are trapped, for the most part, by the glass. In this situation I would always expect a smell.

If the smells really bother you, increase the floor space with a larger, more ventilated cage. Buy a cheap bird cage and use that instead. Or litter box train them and clean that daily.

Good luck.

Let me explain where I am coming from:

I started with just a single pair of rats (Sam and Zoe from Zamzows in Boise, Idaho) bought in the early Spring of 2007, that quickly multiplied since my extremely finicky snake would not eat enough of their babies to keep the population in check. Not knowing any better, I kept Sam and Zoe in a 10 gallon tank. ALL of my other rats were their descendants, NONE were aquired from elsewhere.

My largest cage, The Palace, where I moved Sam and the 5 males from Zoe's second litter when she had her third litter, measures 24" long X 18" wide X 40" tall = 17,280 cubic inches. 17,280 divided by 3,456 = 5 rats maximum, but I did not know that then. Sam and his sons Coaly, Ivan, Kareem, Victor, and Yancy seemed happy in the palace, they did not look stressed to me.

I got in trouble with the Humane Society in the Spring of 2008 (as some long time readers of this forum might remember), for having too many rats (about 100, all well fed and watered, all caged - yes some in 10 gallon tanks, though indeed overcrowded).
I was threatened with being charged with animal hoarding. Though, thankfully, that never actually happened. The upshot was that the majority of my rats were executed and thrown in the trash; so that I didn't have anything to feed my Great Basin Gopher snake at the beginning of the short time of year that my snake will eat. I was, also, told that I could NOT have ANY rodents in my freezer (I still have a few, though my snake refuses to eat them, so I should probably just throw those away).

According to the Humane Society, even the 6 rats that I had in The Palace were overcrowded, so she took Yancy and Ivan, leaving me with 4 rats in that cage, which she still considered to be overcrowded. I have since been informed that a cage that size is barely big enough for two rats.

I think a 10 is too small for a rat (and way too small for 3) But your second biggest problem is ventilation. Your rats will never be healthy in these kind of conditions. Aspen also does nothing to cover the smell. All the good odor absorbers tend to be more expensive. I would try the charcoal trick that was mentioned. I've never heard i before but it sounds like it would work since most odor neutralizers are charcoal based.