Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello All,

I am interested in finally starting with hots after keeping snakes for 19-plus* years (since 11/21/91 when I obtained an 0.0.1 Opheodrys aestivus as my first snake) and specializing in opisthoglyphous snakes for 10-plus years (since 1/5/01 when I obtained a 1.0 Chrysopelea ornata ssp. as my first opisthoglyph). I have mainly focused on the genera of Ahaetulla, Boiga, and Chrysopelea and have had great success.

Now, despite what the subject title might imply, it's not like I haven't researched this inquiry already (in preparation), but it's been a while - my last spontaneous desire to 'move up' was a few years ago. Thus, I would like to hear a few good choices of hots that are good for a beginning hot keeper to start with. Sure, I could think Copperheads or Wagler's Viper because they're not fatal, but I know many believe disposition/demeanor/aggressiveness outweighs venom potency, and I know Copperheads are generally ill-tempered...right?

Any and all input will be greatly appreciated, and feel free to tack on a few care tips and important notes of the species You suggest if You don't mind, please, thanks.

Sincerely,
Timothy

*Kingsnake doesn't let You use [plus] signs?? Haha...
-----
T.J. Gould

I suggest working with a mentor and see what works for you.

There a lot of things to consider such as security, family members, local laws, and protocols.

If you search hot herp forums you will see this topic has been addressed many times with many opinions.

Anaphylactic Shock resulting in a bite from a "not as toxic snake" can do you in just as easily as a highly venomous snake bite.
-----
Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

i agree with tim, a mentor would be best. copperheads can kill you a guy in texas was killed not to long ago from a bite by a copperhead and i read he had been bit by one before.

Hm, interesting on the fatality - I suppose that changes the statistics. Id est, up through roughly one year ago, I had read Agkistrodons's fatality rate of 0.02% because there were NO recorded fatalities - not quite "0" because it was not to say no fatalities had occurred before (You know, being a pit viper and all, heh). As well, I seem to read most people getting bit by Agkistrodon not even taking antivenin and instead just applying some rubbing alcohol, getting lots of rest, and enduring the excruciating pain for a few weeks.

I wasn't trying to imply through my original message that I would take easily to/underestimate Agkistrodon's potency; just that--in a raw sense--I know they're generally less toxic than other hots, and I didn't know if that would determine for some to make a good first hot. I'd find it a folly or insignificant reasoning to determine Agkistrodon spp. as good first hots.

Thanks, "jparker," for Your input as well which will be slept upon, and I will see whom I can possibly find for a mentor.

Sincerely,
Timothy

>>i agree with tim, a mentor would be best. copperheads can kill you a guy in texas was killed not to long ago from a bite by a copperhead and i read he had been bit by one before.

-----
T.J. Gould

There was another copperhead fatality several years ago, also from an allergic reaction. I've never heard of a fatality that wasn't, though without proper care I could see a fatal infection being a possibility. One could argue that your chances of DYING from a captive copperhead might not be significantly higher than for a dog.

However, while still not common, significant tissue damage, up to loss of several fingers or permanent impairment of an arm happens often enough to make it worth taking them seriously.

You probably WILL want antivenom for a bad copperhead bite to reduce the amount of damage even if you are unlikely to die.

That being said, due to the low risk of death, they would be pretty high on my list for a beginner, especially if you can get one that's been in captivity a while.

As many others have said though, if at all possible, find a mentor. It's really nice to not only have someone to turn to for advice, but to back you up the first few times you lose control of a snake (it will happen).
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

Gods, am I thankful I came on here. I used to frequent the Hognose forum among many others back in the mid-late 90s to help several which was appreciated, and now the help is being returned.

I suppose there are two sides to every story, or in subjects of fatality statistics, perhaps just some numbers missing. The 0.02% fatality rate of Agkistrodon makes more sense now, and which may or may not be significantly greater than a dog indeed. Still, like any other hot or potentially fatal animal, it should be learnt, feared, and respected to NO end! ...never to be underestimated! I have come to this more clear reality now, and being a guitar player and motorcyclist, I'd like to keep my fingers and full feeling of my arms.

It's also good to know a LTC Agkistrodon sp. can still be a good first hot, thank You.

I will most graciously accept a mentor if I can find one. Indeed, I have thought and even feared over a hot getting wryly and falling off the hook, starting to get away, and the like...I let this fear be a guide but not to live in - this guide encourages me to seek out a mentor that much more.

With Atropoides spp. having a lower metabolism, do You think there's a lesser chance of losing control over them? I presume You might also suggest an Agkistrodon sp. because of a possibly lower metabolism as well? What are Your thoughts on Tropidolaemus wagleri in regards to control?

Timothy

>>There was another copperhead fatality several years ago, also from an allergic reaction. I've never heard of a fatality that wasn't, though without proper care I could see a fatal infection being a possibility. One could argue that your chances of DYING from a captive copperhead might not be significantly higher than for a dog.
>>
>>However, while still not common, significant tissue damage, up to loss of several fingers or permanent impairment of an arm happens often enough to make it worth taking them seriously.
>>
>>You probably WILL want antivenom for a bad copperhead bite to reduce the amount of damage even if you are unlikely to die.
>>
>>That being said, due to the low risk of death, they would be pretty high on my list for a beginner, especially if you can get one that's been in captivity a while.
>>
>>As many others have said though, if at all possible, find a mentor. It's really nice to not only have someone to turn to for advice, but to back you up the first few times you lose control of a snake (it will happen).
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>I'd like to keep my fingers and full feeling of my arms.

To be clear, that kind of damage is unlikely, and probably less likely than with many other vipers. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the possibility.

>>With Atropoides spp. having a lower metabolism, do You think there's a lesser chance of losing control over them?

I'm not personally familiar with Atropoides, but a quick Wikipedia search suggests they are known for holding on and biting multiple times.

Also, if you were to get a bad bite from one, unless you live in South Florida or a few other spots in the U.S. antivenom is unlikely to be availible locally.

>> I presume You might also suggest an Agkistrodon sp. because of a possibly lower metabolism as well?

This is probably the wrong way to look at things. Gaboon vipers probably fit that description, but they strike so fast you can't see them move and some will occasionally go ape-&*# and make you chase them around the room...

madprogrammer.com/snakes/gaboonstrike/

>> What are Your thoughts on Tropidolaemus wagleri in regards to control?

I've only personally worked with one wagleri, but like all the arboreal vipers I've worked with they were generally easy to control. They require a little dexterity with hooks (you WILL need two) to get them loose from a branch, but as long as you're not in a hurry you'll get it done.

One thing to be careful of with arboreal vipers is that many will occasionally strike out, just holding the branch with their tails. There are two problems with this:
1) It gives them unexpected range.
2) Every now and then, one will lose it's grip and come flying out in a ballistic arc towards your waist/legs/feet... That will wake you up in the morning.

-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

"To be clear, that kind of damage is unlikely, and probably less likely than with many other vipers. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the possibility."

Thank You. As stated in other message(s), I let fear guide me, and with such a vivid mind, it helps me not take the chances, heh! With my immunity and strength, there's probably even less of a chance of losing fingers or feeling in an arm, but it'd be folly to let that get to my head and test Fate.

"I'm not personally familiar with Atropoides, but a quick Wikipedia search suggests they are known for holding on and biting multiple times."

Funny enough, as soon as the Jumping Viper was suggested to me on here by Chris, I as well searched it on Google and went to the Wikipedia page which I still have up. Adding to the fact of their multiple bites and tenacious nature, I quote the Wikipedia page:

"However, the effects of the venom include only transient pain and mild swelling. In one part of Honduras the locals even insist that the snake (A. nummifer) is not venomous. Laboratory studies suggest that Atropoides venoms are unlikely to lead to consumption coagulopathy and incoagulable blood in humans. However, other research revealed that of ten different Costa Rican pit viper venoms tested on mice, that of A. picadoi was the most hemorrhagic."

Obviously, like with any other hot, You don't take Your chances! But it's good to know this genus seems even less cable of inflicting death or serious damage.

"Also, if you were to get a bad bite from one, unless you live in South Florida or a few other spots in the U.S. antivenom is unlikely to be availible locally."

I have also taken this into consideration since it was first addressed to me on here (if by You, sorry for not crediting...I don't remember from whom). It's common sense, and hey, if I could keep my native Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen and eventually Crotalus horridus, I would go with those first. Ah well...

Unfortunately, I think keeping Tropidolaemus wagleri raises the same issue as keeping the genus Atropoides or any other exotic hot, which is why I mentioned in previous message(s) of pursuing antivenin practices, especially to make antivenin for the species I will keep myself.

"This is probably the wrong way to look at things. Gaboon vipers probably fit that description, but they strike so fast you can't see them move and some will occasionally go ape-&*# and make you chase them around the room...

Haha, sounds like it would be a nerve-racking blast for a first time on a novice! Gaboon Viper - longest fangs in the world, too, at ~2". I remember learning that in my early years of the hobby.

Those pictures are something else (!), but doesn't the Death Adder hold the record for the fastest snake striker at 1/250th of a second, including recoil?

"I've only personally worked with one wagleri, but like all the arboreal vipers I've worked with they were generally easy to control. They require a little dexterity with hooks (you WILL need two) to get them loose from a branch, but as long as you're not in a hurry you'll get it done."

Good to know of their ease. I was planning on getting two hooks anyhow, perhaps one kept at the opposite side of room from where (most of) the snakes will be staged, or for bigger hots...aren't two recommended for snakes of significant size? Luckily for me, I am very laid back and patient (a virtue!), and I would never rush dealing with a hot.

"One thing to be careful of with arboreal vipers is that many will occasionally strike out, just holding the branch with their tails. There are two problems with this:

1) It gives them unexpected range.
2) Every now and then, one will lose it's grip and come flying out in a ballistic arc towards your waist/legs/feet... That will wake you up in the morning."

Yes, I have thought of this from keeping a 5'4" Corallus cookii that would "lunge out", and of course, arboreals are closer to head-level, ha! Lunging at the waist...as long as it's not my morning alarm!

Timothy

>>>>I'd like to keep my fingers and full feeling of my arms.
>>
>>To be clear, that kind of damage is unlikely, and probably less likely than with many other vipers. I just wanted to make sure you were aware of the possibility.
>>
>>>>With Atropoides spp. having a lower metabolism, do You think there's a lesser chance of losing control over them?
>>
>>I'm not personally familiar with Atropoides, but a quick Wikipedia search suggests they are known for holding on and biting multiple times.
>>
>>Also, if you were to get a bad bite from one, unless you live in South Florida or a few other spots in the U.S. antivenom is unlikely to be availible locally.
>>
>>>> I presume You might also suggest an Agkistrodon sp. because of a possibly lower metabolism as well?
>>
>>This is probably the wrong way to look at things. Gaboon vipers probably fit that description, but they strike so fast you can't see them move and some will occasionally go ape-&*# and make you chase them around the room...
>>
>>madprogrammer.com/snakes/gaboonstrike/
>>
>>>> What are Your thoughts on Tropidolaemus wagleri in regards to control?
>>
>>I've only personally worked with one wagleri, but like all the arboreal vipers I've worked with they were generally easy to control. They require a little dexterity with hooks (you WILL need two) to get them loose from a branch, but as long as you're not in a hurry you'll get it done.
>>
>>One thing to be careful of with arboreal vipers is that many will occasionally strike out, just holding the branch with their tails. There are two problems with this:
>>1) It gives them unexpected range.
>>2) Every now and then, one will lose it's grip and come flying out in a ballistic arc towards your waist/legs/feet... That will wake you up in the morning.
>>
>>
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>I was planning on getting two hooks anyhow, perhaps one kept at the opposite side of room from where (most of) the snakes will be staged, or for bigger hots...aren't two recommended for snakes of significant size?

I use 2 hooks for almost every snake, with the exception of the fairly small (under 18 inches) and the very large (king cobras and some VERY large rattlesnakes).

I would really recommend THREE 36-40" hooks (two to use and one for backup) and at least one 24" for the small stuff.

www.madprogrammer.com/snakes/handling/

Here's an example of a rattlesnake too big to handle with two hooks (the photo makes it look like the snake is closer to my body than it really is.)

-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

I figured two hooks on a significantly small or large snake would be difficult, but in very different ways of course. Three (3) 36"-40" hooks and at least one 24" hook - I will abide by this!

I very much like Your ideas for safe containers and handling procedures. I honestly don't believe in keeping my pets in "shoebox" containers where they cannot be pleasurably viewed, and I also have never removed a snake from its home for feeding (except for stubborn Heterodon nasicus)--I'm very philosophical in my reasoning, and unless a good safety reason is provided, I won't change this--but I like the opaque container idea when cleaning the enclosures, and especially the trash can idea with a see-through 'handle-lid' - well-constructed! I will keep these most practical contraptions in the front of my mind.

Dating a photographer-hobbyist and having a former friend whom is a professional photographer, I could see the depth-perception-deception immediately and thus knew the rattlesnake was further from You than would appear to most at first glance. Perhaps a beneficial asset for me when dealing with hots--large or small really--I should mention my exceptionally long arms: 80" as opposed to my height of 74" (75" tall with the combat boots I always wear, and which are 11" high = good protection, and with semi-baggy BDUs). Obviously, my logic is that I can hold a hot out a little further from me; of course, I wouldn't lock (or even straighten too much) my arms for loss of dexterity and perhaps leverage also.

Timothy

>>>>I was planning on getting two hooks anyhow, perhaps one kept at the opposite side of room from where (most of) the snakes will be staged, or for bigger hots...aren't two recommended for snakes of significant size?
>>
>>I use 2 hooks for almost every snake, with the exception of the fairly small (under 18 inches) and the very large (king cobras and some VERY large rattlesnakes).
>>
>>I would really recommend THREE 36-40" hooks (two to use and one for backup) and at least one 24" for the small stuff.
>>
>>www.madprogrammer.com/snakes/handling/
>>
>>Here's an example of a rattlesnake too big to handle with two hooks (the photo makes it look like the snake is closer to my body than it really is.)
>>
>>
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>I honestly don't believe in keeping my pets in "shoebox" containers where they cannot be pleasurably viewed

If you have the space and time to maintain more attractive and/or naturalistic enclosures, more power to you. I took in a bunch of snakes that needed homes (basically the refuge ran out of space) and have to make compromises for space and efficiency.

Just make sure you put some (more than some) thought into what kind of enclosures you use. Many very nice looking commercial cages are very difficult to open without getting your hand close to the opening (most cages with two-piece, sliding fronts) and many have blind-spots where a snake can hide.

Neodesha cages are very nice in this regard as the ones with the one-piece. sliding front can be pulled out from one side and you never have to be within the width of the cage from the opening. Most of them don't stack and many people don't find them terribly attractive, but they are almost as easy to clean as my el-cheapo containers.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

I hear You on compromises, and You're faaar from the only one who makes them, and for legitimate reasoning, so I understand. I'm just a naturalist and all into aesthetics, but of course practicality and ease of access to everything (exempli gratia, water bowl if applicable) above all, and which make way for safety in the case of hots.

I have taken ALL details of ALL personal setups on here to mind and have been thinking hard of which commercial enclosures would be best, and funny enough, I was all over the Neodesha website some weeks ago (used to be obsessed and long for their products in the late 90s/early 00s before they went out, but I never had the money as an early high schooler). They may not be stackable, but they have the racks.

I think their prices seem fair for not actually owning one, I just need to get the money, heh. Otherwise, I am contemplating going back on a teen activity of sketching/detailing some custom-built enclosures by my own hands.

Timothy

>>>>I honestly don't believe in keeping my pets in "shoebox" containers where they cannot be pleasurably viewed
>>
>>If you have the space and time to maintain more attractive and/or naturalistic enclosures, more power to you. I took in a bunch of snakes that needed homes (basically the refuge ran out of space) and have to make compromises for space and efficiency.
>>
>>Just make sure you put some (more than some) thought into what kind of enclosures you use. Many very nice looking commercial cages are very difficult to open without getting your hand close to the opening (most cages with two-piece, sliding fronts) and many have blind-spots where a snake can hide.
>>
>>Neodesha cages are very nice in this regard as the ones with the one-piece. sliding front can be pulled out from one side and you never have to be within the width of the cage from the opening. Most of them don't stack and many people don't find them terribly attractive, but they are almost as easy to clean as my el-cheapo containers.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

I switched all mine back to 2 piece sliding fronts. Neos 1 piece are nice but they are only up to 36" then they are 2 piece. And the one piece front cages can't be lined up right next to one another or the glass bumps the cage next to it. I got rid of my drop down doors because I didn't like having to open the whole front at once. Some of my spunkier guys seemed to take that as a sign that they should make a run for it. I tried shoe boxes but felt like I had the same problem with them. Half the time they were striking at me as I popped of the top(and then your fingers are real close). I didn't like the system that didn't use tops for safty reasons. The BP and corn snake test run I gave it didn't inspire confidence. A few of them pushed their way out by flexing the box. And the added disadvantage that I didn't feel like I enjoyed the snakes as much when I couldn't see them.
If you are worried about putting your fingers near the edge just open it with your hook

Back to venemous snakes, have you thought about Bothrops alternatus or the Urutu? I have only had one and it was one of the easier hots I have had. The colors and pattern are absolutely awesome. It was a very cal snake that did not show signs of aggression. It rode a hook well and it ate well. It was one of the easiest hots I have ever kept. They are something different from the North American hots. I am not sure if Cro-Fab would work with them but I don't see why it would'nt.

Dan

I have had a little experience with some Bothrops , and I would not recomend any type of Bothrops as a fist venomous under any situation. Also Cro-Fab in my opinion is not residual or strong enough to be reliable for this group. Chris

Chris,

Hmmm, perhaps I should have read Your opposition before becoming so impulsively excited.

So, then, perhaps Dan's specimen is just an exception? Or is everything he said about the species' nature quite accurate as a whole, and it's the question of CroFab's strength for bites from the genus that fight the recommendation?

Timothy

>>I have had a little experience with some Bothrops , and I would not recomend any type of Bothrops as a fist venomous under any situation. Also Cro-Fab in my opinion is not residual or strong enough to be reliable for this group. Chris

-----
T.J. Gould

>>Back to venemous snakes, have you thought about Bothrops alternatus or the Urutu?

>>I am not sure if Cro-Fab would work with them but I don't see why it would'nt.

Danger Will Robinson!

I've only heard of one Urutu bite to a keeper (2004) and it was fatal in spite of fairly prompt medical care. Her family contend that that was largely because of being incorrectly treated with Cro-Fab...

The only Bothrops I have personal experience with is B. atrox, but from what I've heard from others and read about them, I would not recommend any Bothrops for a beginner.
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

Well, this now makes for two (2) against Bothrops spp., and until at least two (2) more people recommend it, I have taken it off of my list...yes, I literally have a text document on my desktop listing the suggested first hots, heh, in order as most highly recommended starting with Agkistrodon contortrix sspp..

Conclusion: NO Bothrops!

Timothy

>>>>Back to venemous snakes, have you thought about Bothrops alternatus or the Urutu?
>>
>>>>I am not sure if Cro-Fab would work with them but I don't see why it would'nt.
>>
>>Danger Will Robinson!
>>
>>I've only heard of one Urutu bite to a keeper (2004) and it was fatal in spite of fairly prompt medical care. Her family contend that that was largely because of being incorrectly treated with Cro-Fab...
>>
>>The only Bothrops I have personal experience with is B. atrox, but from what I've heard from others and read about them, I would not recommend any Bothrops for a beginner.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

Dan,

Thank You for joining the discussion and providing me with another choice - it is much appreciated. So, the good ol' "Lanceheads", huh? I would think for the "worst case" (-Chris) scenario being able to use CroFab for Atropoides, You could probably use it for Bothrops alternatus as well.

Anyway, I like all the pros of its nature that You list. I still might go with something that 'keeps me on my toes,' but I like knowing the "placid", hook-handable, and hardy species out there. Thanks again!!

Timothy

>>Back to venemous snakes, have you thought about Bothrops alternatus or the Urutu? I have only had one and it was one of the easier hots I have had. The colors and pattern are absolutely awesome. It was a very cal snake that did not show signs of aggression. It rode a hook well and it ate well. It was one of the easiest hots I have ever kept. They are something different from the North American hots. I am not sure if Cro-Fab would work with them but I don't see why it would'nt.
>>
>>Dan

-----
T.J. Gould

The only reason I would use Cro-Fab for the jumpers is due to the fact that its venom is not very powerful as compared to Alternatus. The bothrops group is a whole different animal. One more thing A. picadoi is more toxic and agile then the typical Jumpers so I do not recomend it as a first snake. Take care Chris

Chris,

Ahhh, yes-yes, I gotchya now. Okay then, good to know, and thanks for specifying one of the Jumpers as not being suitable for a beginner - have updated my 'list' to specify the other two species ONLY, if to consider an Atropoides spp. as a first hot.

Timothy

>>The only reason I would use Cro-Fab for the jumpers is due to the fact that its venom is not very powerful as compared to Alternatus. The bothrops group is a whole different animal. One more thing A. picadoi is more toxic and agile then the typical Jumpers so I do not recomend it as a first snake. Take care Chris

-----
T.J. Gould

Steven,

Hmmm...this gives me something to consider! I have heard other negativity from a friend, and it all makes me second-think...too bad, too, because they now have the 36" stackables. I forget the manufacturer my friend is highly into, but I will find out soon and get back...grrr, on the tip of my tongue, too!

Timothy

>>I switched all mine back to 2 piece sliding fronts. Neos 1 piece are nice but they are only up to 36" then they are 2 piece. And the one piece front cages can't be lined up right next to one another or the glass bumps the cage next to it. I got rid of my drop down doors because I didn't like having to open the whole front at once. Some of my spunkier guys seemed to take that as a sign that they should make a run for it. I tried shoe boxes but felt like I had the same problem with them. Half the time they were striking at me as I popped of the top(and then your fingers are real close). I didn't like the system that didn't use tops for safty reasons. The BP and corn snake test run I gave it didn't inspire confidence. A few of them pushed their way out by flexing the box. And the added disadvantage that I didn't feel like I enjoyed the snakes as much when I couldn't see them.
>>If you are worried about putting your fingers near the edge just open it with your hook

-----
T.J. Gould

Of course, having a mentor would be optimum, but that is unrealistic for me unfortunately. :/ I am counting on my vast experience with opisthoglyphous snakes, strong immune system, practicality, common sense, logical thinking, my sixth sense (-that some can laugh at, but when someone else can handle any Emerald Tree Boa, Green Tree Python, or ~6' anaconda solo without getting bit, they will have right to contend), and all that I have read and watched. At that, I had deeply studied the different toxins injected by different species, LD50s, and so forth.

Security will be taken care of by a heavy, automatic-closing-and-locking (from outside) industrial door to a room just for hots, and locks on all cages is a give-in. Family members have been addressed, and when I get on my own and have kids, I may consider giving up the hots. Laws in my state are strict and require permits, but it's in the early works and will hopefully pull through. Obviously, I am in preparation right now, which includes people's suggestions for first hot.

Indeed, I am aware it is all in the reaction that can determine one's outcome, thus venom potency is insignificant to a small degree. Thus, I suppose my comment on Copperheads and Wagler's Vipers was irrelevant to that same, small degree.

I thank You very much, Tim, for Your input, and it will all be slept on.

Sincerely,
Timothy

>>I suggest working with a mentor and see what works for you.
>>
>>There a lot of things to consider such as security, family members, local laws, and protocols.
>>
>>If you search hot herp forums you will see this topic has been addressed many times with many opinions.
>>
>>Anaphylactic Shock resulting in a bite from a "not as toxic snake" can do you in just as easily as a highly venomous snake bite.
>>-----
>>Tim Cole
>>www.austinherpsociety.org
>>www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
>>www.AustinReptileService.net
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
>>Conservation through Education
-----
T.J. Gould

If A mentor is around it is a plus,but not always possible. So if you are willing to dive in , I would say the Jumping Viper would be a good choice,due to the fact that a lesser toxic venom ,and a low metabalism makes it less likely to defacate much reduceing the number of times you would have to come in contact with it. Keep in mind these snakes strike as fast as any,and each persons tollerance to the venom could be different. So make sure you have proper tools ,cage setup wth locking capability.And for no reason you shold not touch with your hands.To many times people get snakes for the wrong reason, dont become a statistic for ego. If it is for education or for your personal enjoyment,I wish you luck ,and enjoy Chris

Chris,

I thank You very, very much for this first suggestion. As I would have hoped to be evident to everyone through my posts--but evidently not--I am not an ego-maniac looking to get hots for notoriety and prestige. As should be further evident of this, I have been patient for many years working with opisthoglyphous snakes first (make sense? One step at a time up the ladder, I say, right?), and I feel myself exhibiting the right action of consulting the 'pros' on here for the best advice possible that will keep not just me, but everyone, safe!

Also, if I was going for the egotism, I think I would have just jumped into whichever hot(s) I wanted regardless of potency, ease, anyone's advice, et cetera, and as Denise Readinger--President of the Hamburg show--told me on October 8, 2007 (I have the email saved which can be quoted on here if desired), NO permit(s) are required to purchase hots there; instead, it is all on the buyer to respect their local laws. Thus, I probably could have gotten anything I wanted by now. I hope everyone on here understands, now, that I have a sincerely mature, responsible, and even scientific* purpose for keeping hots, and yes, for personal enjoyment of the too-often-condemned creatures - namely by religious fanatics, especially my Christian Father who believed back in the day ALL poisonous snakes should be killed. Such ignorance to such creatures' magnificence, beauty, and purpose (= harmony and role in Mother Nature)** is sad.

Simple common sense things such as You, Chris, pointing out: getting a snake with low metabolism = less to clean up = less time interacting with snake = fewer chances of a bite occurring is just what I am looking for in advice. Thankfully, I have a very strong immune system and NO known allergies, which was also proven by a bite from my Boiga dendrophila ssp. a few years back although I don't think it actually got its fangs into me...? Nonetheless, I am young (27 in May), strong and healthy, with high immunity and tolerance, and I also have mighty fast reactions...I've impressed people with my ability to escape most strikes, or my ability to read one coming and retracting. (NO; I am not a daredevil and going to try my luck with hots...it's never been a game or test to me with harmless snakes, so it especially won't be with hots - We do not want them to be aggressive of course!)

As addressed in previous message, I have plans for a heavy, automatic-closing-and-locking industrial door, and cages will have locks NO question!

Timothy

*I was initially attending college out of high school (2002) for Biology with the intention to further major in Herpetology at either a 4-year university or graduate school. A transcript of proof can be scanned/uploaded upon request. I may return to this goal and even specialize in antivenin.

**We all know that if ALL venomous snakes were to disappear, We would have more deaths (even more than the 20K-30K/year in India) from diseases spread my vermin and also lack of crops. ALL serpents are a strong necessity to Our ecosystem.

>>If A mentor is around it is a plus,but not always possible. So if you are willing to dive in , I would say the Jumping Viper would be a good choice,due to the fact that a lesser toxic venom ,and a low metabalism makes it less likely to defacate much reduceing the number of times you would have to come in contact with it. Keep in mind these snakes strike as fast as any,and each persons tollerance to the venom could be different. So make sure you have proper tools ,cage setup wth locking capability.And for no reason you shold not touch with your hands.To many times people get snakes for the wrong reason, dont become a statistic for ego. If it is for education or for your personal enjoyment,I wish you luck ,and enjoy Chris
-----
T.J. Gould

They have an immense fang length for their size and are much more toxic than they are given credit for.

I've got a good sized female Temple, with a HUGE head, and it didn't take long (the first time she ate actually) to realize what was hidden in there. I like her though because she's very hands off. By that I mean, I have no REASON/Need to handle her. Her cage has a bottom that slides out with permanent perches in place AND two sides that are able to be closed off from one another rather easily. So, when I do have to clean her (however rare, since they defecate so infrequently), it's super easy. The other reason I like her as a first hot, is that she's no where near the length of many other hots. None of these are reasons to be careless with her, but as long as they're treated with the respect and caution they deserve, the odds of something bad happening are greatly reduced.

Kelly and "wlcmmtt",

Good to know! I thank You two very much for the forewarning! And it's also good to know such a beauty is still a good first hot.

A cage with a bottom that slides out = so practical! I will have to keep this design in mind as a better-type of enclosure to go with. I was actually thinking of Exo-Terra Glass Terrariums with front-opening doors - I know these are definitely a necessity! You all agree?

"...two sides that are able to be closed off from one another..." kind of confuses me. You mean the side panels disassemble or something?

Indeed, I was aware Tropidolaemus wagleri is smaller which is comforting. And further indeed, to paraphrase what a musical artist stated on his first album which was about Nature, I always say 'We must come to learn, fear, and respect Mother Nature for the ultimate power and perfection that she beholds!' Id est, I would never underestimate any hot's potency, or potential to inflict a concerning bite. Again (from earlier posts), I just thought maybe having a species not so deadly may be good should a bite occur, that's all.

All-in-all, again, it comes down to the respect, but also common sense, practicality (in many aspects, exempli gratia, enclosure design), a good conscious state of mind, logical thinking, and having a good, clear head on one's shoulders when dealing with hots. Id est, if tired or not 100% with it, I won't lay a finger on the cage!

Timothy

>>I've got a good sized female Temple, with a HUGE head, and it didn't take long (the first time she ate actually) to realize what was hidden in there. I like her though because she's very hands off. By that I mean, I have no REASON/Need to handle her. Her cage has a bottom that slides out with permanent perches in place AND two sides that are able to be closed off from one another rather easily. So, when I do have to clean her (however rare, since they defecate so infrequently), it's super easy. The other reason I like her as a first hot, is that she's no where near the length of many other hots. None of these are reasons to be careless with her, but as long as they're treated with the respect and caution they deserve, the odds of something bad happening are greatly reduced.

-----
T.J. Gould

I guess that cage description could be a little confusing. It's actually a good sized cage, with a permanent divider in the middle. The divider then has a 4 by 6 inch hole in the middle (with a separate piece that can slide in and out to cover it up) to allow the animals to go back and forth ( I believe the original owner used it for breeding Chondros). But for me, it works out to make for a safe way to clean one side or the other.

"wlcmmtt",

Ahhh, I see-I see! That's quite a nice and practical design for safety and all. Thanks for the clarification - I may consider something like that for an enclosure I'd build myself, if-and-when that were to ever happen.

Timothy

>>I guess that cage description could be a little confusing. It's actually a good sized cage, with a permanent divider in the middle. The divider then has a 4 by 6 inch hole in the middle (with a separate piece that can slide in and out to cover it up) to allow the animals to go back and forth ( I believe the original owner used it for breeding Chondros). But for me, it works out to make for a safe way to clean one side or the other.

-----
T.J. Gould

My thoughts. First, please start with a cb baby. It's pretty easy to stay out of range of an animal with a 2" strike range. Your skills will grow as the snake does. If you had a mentor to demonstrate hooking and let you practice on his animals, starting with an older animal might be a consideration.

Your concern about demeanor, how aggressive the snake is likely to be, etc. is reasonable, yet there is more to this issue. Nearly all Crotalids and Viperids will settle down enough to become manageable and enjoyable captives. The truly difficult, psychotic snake will be an aberrancy, no matter the species. There is a flip side to the benefits of having a calm snake. You will at some point be tempted to become complacent. Don't laugh. It will not happen while you are new at it, a bit apprehensive and always on your toes when interacting with your snake. But temptations will arise. A snappy snake will always demand your full attention. Second to complacency, the next greatest danger is feeding response. Even a very placid snake can develop an insane feeding response. It is worth remembering that even a snake you have come to know very well is capable of a quantum increase in feeding response at any moment.

I think it is hard to beat a copperhead for a first hot. They are beautiful and tend to become fairly relaxed captives. They have every bit as much "class" as more exotic species. If you are not quite sold on a copperhead, I'll suggest a cantil. As far as snakes go, cantils have major personality. Diurnally active, extremely alert and responsive, they will nearly always turn to greet you as you approach the cage. Did I say "greet"? I meant "bite", as biting you seems to be their eternal desire. But their snappiness makes them completely predictable. They are really much more manageable than I am making it sound. Babies tend to ride a hook better than baby copperheads.

Ian,

I am receiving so much great input, and so various yet in sync with each other. When ultimately prepared and ready to take on my first hot and develop with this ballpark of herps, and to perhaps pursue my herpetology degree and maybe specialize in antivenin as made mention in previous message, I look forward to actually being a part of this community.

A 2" strike range is definitely easier to escape than a 2' one! ...as can be demonstrated with harmless snakes. Thus, unless a calm LTC Agkistrodon sp. comes my way, I will go with a CBB baby. Thanks for this realization of safety, and growing with the snake makes much sense!

Although I don't have a mentor to show me the ropes of hooking, I feel I would be a-okay just from my 19+ years of watching not just on TV, but in-person, too. I am very visual, and vividly so, thus I am good at 'acting out my thoughts' if You will, move-for-move. And as stated in an earlier post, I feel my sixth sense if You, or my intuition, towards snakes is prime. Of course, every genus to every species is different, even specimens within a species, and it's hots were working with here. But yes, my sixth sense/intuition, vividly visual mind, 'improvisation' too if You (of feeling and dexterity), and so forth would guide me quite well with hooking.

Nonetheless, a mentor would be a plus indeed.

I have learned from both You and Larry that Agkistrodon contortrix sspp.'s overly bad reputation for attitude is exaggerated upon and undeserved. It is good to know ALL vipers, it seems, will calm down and ease in, yet it is good to know my concern towards demeanor/aggressiveness is still legitimate. I have also visualized becoming so complacent with such a calm snake, that one could become careless and make way for danger. As made mention in my response to Larry, I am guided by my fear (and also paranoia) which, again, brings forth quite vivid thoughts of what could happen, and this will make me even more careful, I truly believe!

As a further note, I, too, have seen quite the calm and relaxed snakes come forth during feeding time with a most voracious disposition! "Expect the unexpected" is a good law (of Nature) to follow in everything in Life. One can never be too prepared or cautious when it comes to potentially fatal (or destructive, in reference to losing fingers or other sensitivity) animals, and it should always be remembered that no matter how tame they may be, they're still wild animals with wild minds that can turn on You at any given moment, without any sign/notice! ...especially with snakes which don't give off many expressions-of-emotions, and thus where the sixth sense/intuition is crucial!

Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. have plenty of class for me, and if You and Larry say they're a good first hot, it flies with me. It's good to know Agkistrodon b. bilineatus is a good alternative, though, and perhaps yes, a naturally more aggressive-till-death and predictable hot might keep me on my toes that much more, heh. Thanks again!!

Timothy

>>My thoughts. First, please start with a cb baby. It's pretty easy to stay out of range of an animal with a 2" strike range. Your skills will grow as the snake does. If you had a mentor to demonstrate hooking and let you practice on his animals, starting with an older animal might be a consideration.
>>
>>Your concern about demeanor, how aggressive the snake is likely to be, etc. is reasonable, yet there is more to this issue. Nearly all Crotalids and Viperids will settle down enough to become manageable and enjoyable captives. The truly difficult, psychotic snake will be an aberrancy, no matter the species. There is a flip side to the benefits of having a calm snake. You will at some point be tempted to become complacent. Don't laugh. It will not happen while you are new at it, a bit apprehensive and always on your toes when interacting with your snake. But temptations will arise. A snappy snake will always demand your full attention. Second to complacency, the next greatest danger is feeding response. Even a very placid snake can develop an insane feeding response. It is worth remembering that even a snake you have come to know very well is capable of a quantum increase in feeding response at any moment.
>>
>>I think it is hard to beat a copperhead for a first hot. They are beautiful and tend to become fairly relaxed captives. They have every bit as much "class" as more exotic species. If you are not quite sold on a copperhead, I'll suggest a cantil. As far as snakes go, cantils have major personality. Diurnally active, extremely alert and responsive, they will nearly always turn to greet you as you approach the cage. Did I say "greet"? I meant "bite", as biting you seems to be their eternal desire. But their snappiness makes them completely predictable. They are really much more manageable than I am making it sound. Babies tend to ride a hook better than baby copperheads.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>A 2" strike range is definitely easier to escape than a 2' one!

This is probably just not the best wording, but just to make sure...

He said a 2" strike range is easier to "STAY out of", not to "escape". In case it hasn't been stated yet, you should be using a hook long enough that no part of your body is EVER within strike range. With small snakes, there is no reason not to use a hook that is longer than the whole animal just to be safe.

If you stay with the hobby and someday end up handling very large rattlesnakes for instance, exceptions may be necessary because you just don't have the leverage to pick up a 15-20 pound snake with 48" hooks...
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

Hmmm...is that really me quoting it as "stay out of"??? If I did, this was by accident. I know NO part of me should be within strike range - this is common sense to me (sorry, my bloodline takes pride in its great common sense ). I was probably just thinking of my ability to escape strikes, of which an ability I will NOT tempt Fate with when dealing with hots (!), and I went typing the wrong words. So, yes, my diction was not what I intended.

Thus, I will indeed make sure my hook(s) are about as long as my snake(s) except, as You acknowledge, for perhaps if-and-when larger rattlesnakes may be kept in the future. Of course, I would be significantly more experienced by this time and able to read such animals that much more.

Speaking of rattlesnakes, what do You think of Steven's suggestion for a Sistrurus miliarius ssp. as a first hot? Small and manageable, right? And not-so-fatal although I know not to underestimate any hot's ability - there is a first for everything so to speak!

Timothy

>>>>A 2" strike range is definitely easier to escape than a 2' one!
>>
>>This is probably just not the best wording, but just to make sure...
>>
>>He said a 2" strike range is easier to "STAY out of", not to "escape". In case it hasn't been stated yet, you should be using a hook long enough that no part of your body is EVER within strike range. With small snakes, there is no reason not to use a hook that is longer than the whole animal just to be safe.
>>
>>If you stay with the hobby and someday end up handling very large rattlesnakes for instance, exceptions may be necessary because you just don't have the leverage to pick up a 15-20 pound snake with 48" hooks...
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>Speaking of rattlesnakes, what do You think of Steven's suggestion for a Sistrurus miliarius ssp. as a first hot? Small and manageable, right?

I had a new trainee at the refuge try handling one of our pygmies on his first day. He confided in me many months later that he almost didn't come back, because he figured that if a pygmy was that difficult how could he possibly control a "real" hot snake?

The lesson, that I apparently hadn't communicated well enough at the time was that small snakes can sometimes be more difficult than larger ones because they only have to move a few inches to be off the hook and are light enough to fling themselves in any direction if the feel like it.

I would guestimate that 50% of the pygmies I've worked with were fairly easy to handle and the other 50% were some of the most difficult snakes I've ever met...

I have 3 snakes at home that I don't look forward to handling:

1) A 12 foot rock python that was never handled by it's previous owner and tries to bite me every time (and has about a 5 foot strike range).
2) A six foot forest cobra that has tried to kill me every time I've handled it for the last 8 years.
3) An 18 inch pygmy that won't stay on a hook long enough for me to move it 2 feet.

Granted, of the 3, the pygmy is the least likely to kill me but he's still a pain in the butt.

I haven't worked with nearly as many coppers, but almost all of them have been fairly easy to handle most of the time.
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

You know, I have wondered a few times throughout all of this if a smaller snake would indeed have its outweighing difficulties to slightly larger, perhaps lethargic snakes. I will keep in mind Sistrurus miliarius ssp. may be a 50/50 ordeal.

That's funny about Your three most greatly dreaded snakes to handle with the Sistrurus miliarius ssp. being in there. I perhaps should have shared that I have had a 7'-8' 0.1* Eunectes notaeus since April 15th, 2006 (five (5) years next month). She was an angel when I got her at 3'-4' and through 1-2 years ago, but once she hit ~6 or more, having an extra helper wasn't enough. Id est, she is uncomfortable being handled solo or even with two people and thus would be more comfortable with three people. The result of going solo or duet? Musk and nip(s)!! ...but interestingly, only when being put back...?

I suppose the relativity of mentioning this (referencing the '...should have mentioned...' from above) is that I am experienced with handling larger snakes. Also--and I am not proud of this...ones familiar with August 18, 2010, RI news will know why I say this--I worked for Regal Reptiles as the 'snakeman' in 2004, and I of course worked with (large) Morelia amethistina, Python sebae, Python molurus bivittatus, Boa constrictor sspp., and perhaps others I can't currently recall.

I know such size in hots adds a whole new dimension--such as one mistake costing Your life!--but I think having worked with large snakes will aid in larger hots when ready down the road...at least in the smallest bit, I'd think. Agree?

I find it interesting that You say Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. are easy to handle when 2-3 others said they don't ride a hook easy...?

Timothy

*When attempted to be sexed by the vendor and I at a show, she was quite squirmy (didn't bite, though! ), so We did not want to risk pushing too far. Hence, her female gender is not 100% certain.

>>>>Speaking of rattlesnakes, what do You think of Steven's suggestion for a Sistrurus miliarius ssp. as a first hot? Small and manageable, right?
>>
>>I had a new trainee at the refuge try handling one of our pygmies on his first day. He confided in me many months later that he almost didn't come back, because he figured that if a pygmy was that difficult how could he possibly control a "real" hot snake?
>>
>>The lesson, that I apparently hadn't communicated well enough at the time was that small snakes can sometimes be more difficult than larger ones because they only have to move a few inches to be off the hook and are light enough to fling themselves in any direction if the feel like it.
>>
>>I would guestimate that 50% of the pygmies I've worked with were fairly easy to handle and the other 50% were some of the most difficult snakes I've ever met...
>>
>>I have 3 snakes at home that I don't look forward to handling:
>>
>>1) A 12 foot rock python that was never handled by it's previous owner and tries to bite me every time (and has about a 5 foot strike range).
>>2) A six foot forest cobra that has tried to kill me every time I've handled it for the last 8 years.
>>3) An 18 inch pygmy that won't stay on a hook long enough for me to move it 2 feet.
>>
>>Granted, of the 3, the pygmy is the least likely to kill me but he's still a pain in the butt.
>>
>>I haven't worked with nearly as many coppers, but almost all of them have been fairly easy to handle most of the time.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>I find it interesting that You say Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. are easy to handle when 2-3 others said they don't ride a hook easy...?

Hmmm... It's certainly possible that my definition of "fairly easy" is somewhat skewed by having worked with a 10 foot, wild caught black mamba, 13 foot king cobras and a few demonic forest cobras...

The only copper in my personal collection rides a hook very well MOST of the time. Others I've worked with may have been a little more "squirmy", but at least they tend to hang over the hook and "hold on" when they feel like sitting still.

Most pygmies I've worked with have had a tendency to try and stretch out straight while on the hook even when they are not actively trying to get away. This tends to result in the snake tipping off the hook in one direction or the other. They just don't seem to have the instinct for holding on to keep from falling. Two hooks sometimes sometimes solve this problem if they will sit still, Puff adders and a few others have similar tendencies.
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

Haha, fair enough. All-in-all, it sounds like many Elapids are quite tricky...? And thus, vipers *in general* are more manageable...is this a good generalization?

Pygmies stretching out on a single hook...definitely not the most concept-grasping species, it seems (pun partially intended...heh).

Timothy

>>>>I find it interesting that You say Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. are easy to handle when 2-3 others said they don't ride a hook easy...?
>>
>>Hmmm... It's certainly possible that my definition of "fairly easy" is somewhat skewed by having worked with a 10 foot, wild caught black mamba, 13 foot king cobras and a few demonic forest cobras...
>>
>>The only copper in my personal collection rides a hook very well MOST of the time. Others I've worked with may have been a little more "squirmy", but at least they tend to hang over the hook and "hold on" when they feel like sitting still.
>>
>>Most pygmies I've worked with have had a tendency to try and stretch out straight while on the hook even when they are not actively trying to get away. This tends to result in the snake tipping off the hook in one direction or the other. They just don't seem to have the instinct for holding on to keep from falling. Two hooks sometimes sometimes solve this problem if they will sit still, Puff adders and a few others have similar tendencies.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

I don't have any prolem with larger copperheads usually, the babies are the ones you spend 45 min trying to move. Pygmies do strech out and flop off but at least it isn't because they are flailing all over the place. using a second small hook solves this (I use one of the telescoping pocket hooks). By the way, The three cages I dread are a horridus that starts snapping in my direction as soon as I walk into the snake room, an over active 5' kaouthia that refuses to stay on a hook (flails around so bad i've finally resorted to a shift box), and a gaboon that I can barely get out of the cage (im looking into some of the real wide flat hooks right now) because it is so fat and heavy

Steven,

Ah, the "three most dreaded snakes to take out" column - this could be quite various and interesting, I'm sure!

I find it ironic about Crotalus horridus (two sspp. still? Or is it one species with the Canebrake now? I find conflicting sources online...), as up here in the Northeast, it is said to be quite timid and relaxed. But of course, captivity can change things, I suppose.

It's good to know larger Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. take well to a hook - perhaps that's another reason it was originally recommended to me to look into a LTC A. c. sspp. for my first hot. But as confirmed in a response to Larry, I will invest in three (3) 36"-40" hooks and at least one 24" hook anyhow.

Regarding that...Naja kaouthia, I'll presume (?), this is all Wikipedia has to say about its venom: "The venom of this species consists mainly of neurotoxin. Symptoms include headache, nausea and disorientation." No lethality?!?!?! Haha.

Timothy

>>I don't have any prolem with larger copperheads usually, the babies are the ones you spend 45 min trying to move. Pygmies do strech out and flop off but at least it isn't because they are flailing all over the place. using a second small hook solves this (I use one of the telescoping pocket hooks). By the way, The three cages I dread are a horridus that starts snapping in my direction as soon as I walk into the snake room, an over active 5' kaouthia that refuses to stay on a hook (flails around so bad i've finally resorted to a shift box), and a gaboon that I can barely get out of the cage (im looking into some of the real wide flat hooks right now) because it is so fat and heavy

-----
T.J. Gould

I haven't seen what wiki has to say but never underestimate any cobra. Never a good idea.

Steven,

Ha, I would never underestimate any cobra! ...despite Indians (or natives of some (SE) Asian country, I forget) exhibiting a sport called "Cobra Boxing" that involves the occasional bite where the contender goes off to the side for a little treatment then resumes, HA!! Crazy...!

My comment in regards to Wiki wasn't implying hope that they were accurate, and thus there's possibly a cobra to start with LOL!! My comment was to relay surprise that they neglected to acknowledge lethality.

Timothy

>>I haven't seen what wiki has to say but never underestimate any cobra. Never a good idea.

-----
T.J. Gould

Perhaps they are using altered snakes because cobra bites can kill you. Its not something you just shake off.

Steven,

I've thought of this already, but on the documentary I watched years ago, they mentioned them being equipped with venom, and they showed them going off-arena to either suction out the venom and/or apply rubbing alcohol perhaps, or probably use/take traditional medicine since (SE) Asians have created so many amazing (natural) medicines. It's possible they're altered, though, and the fact just hidden to make the sport more "impressive and daring."

Timothy

>>Perhaps they are using altered snakes because cobra bites can kill you. Its not something you just shake off.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>Haha, fair enough. All-in-all, it sounds like many Elapids are quite tricky...? And thus, vipers *in general* are more manageable...is this a good generalization?

That's a pretty good generalization, with a few exceptional species and many exceptional specimens. I even had one forest cobra that was quite laid back, but I can't think of an elapid that I would recommend for a beginner (to hots). Even death adders can go spastic on you. Sort of like a pygmy that can kill you...
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

Of course, there are always exceptions, hence my 'generalization.'

I shouldn't be asking this, so We'll perceive this as a hypothetical inquiry for curiosity sake, People, to prove I am NOT looking to start with an Elapid (!!), but what would be a good recommended first Elapid-hot? (I suppose when ready for Elapids in the future, this will be good to know, so it's fine to inquire now, I say. )

What intrigued me to inquire is because of Your, "Even death adders..." comment which lead me to wonder if perhaps there is a more manageable-than-aforementioned-Vipers Elapid-hot that would be good for a beginner...? Frankly, in some sense, as I believe Chris (?) said, the most dangerous hot is the one that just bit You (albeit an Elapid that much more deadly, this I understand!), and as You, Larry, end with the Pygmy comment...

I just wonder--again, a hypothetical answer, I am expecting--about any Elapid that would be a "good" first hot. I didn't know if because I started this thread with a 'Viper focus' that perhaps it (even subconsciously) kept everyone focused on recommending the best Vipers only. Frankly, from what I have heard about Elapids, they sound too crazy to deal with as first hots, and of course the trivia I learned at 7 years of age (1991) that a cobra (in general) can kill a man in 15 minutes always made me think 'no way' (-for a first hot, that is).

Back to Death Adders, as much as I pride myself in escaping strikes or being able to read one ahead of time and retract, I don't think I want to take on a Death Adder, ha!

I would like to randomly stick in here having watched a video forwarded to me by my girlfriend while typing this: http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/03/12/rattlesnake.roundup/index.html which I have re-learned and re-realized about from years ago, how 20K-30K rattlesnakes are senselessly killed every year in the Texas "Rattlesnake Roundups" via gassing/burning, beheading, among other barbaric manners. It enrages me and makes me want to breed rattlesnakes (namely, Texas species) all that much more to ensure these magnificent creatures don't go extinct! So much for "Don't tread on me" with a rattlesnake logo, damn hypocrites...

I just figured I would share my discontentment with others who actually LOVE and RESPECT these creatures, too, and also ones who understand what I have previously stated in another message: if ALL venomous snakes were to disappear, Our ecosystem would be screwed, and MORE people would be dying from diseases spread by vermin and lack of crops!

Timothy

>>>>Haha, fair enough. All-in-all, it sounds like many Elapids are quite tricky...? And thus, vipers *in general* are more manageable...is this a good generalization?
>>
>>That's a pretty good generalization, with a few exceptional species and many exceptional specimens. I even had one forest cobra that was quite laid back, but I can't think of an elapid that I would recommend for a beginner (to hots). Even death adders can go spastic on you. Sort of like a pygmy that can kill you...
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.
-----
T.J. Gould

>>Back to Death Adders, as much as I pride myself in escaping strikes or being able to read one ahead of time and retract,

Just to mercilessly beat the dead horse again...

This makes sense for non-venomous snakes but the concept has no place in thinking about hots. No part of your body should ever be where an unexpected strike should matter. You DO want to be able to pick up the clues to an impending strike, but only for purposes of knowing when the snake is about to fly off a hook and hurt itself or make your life "interesting".

As for your actual question, the short version is that I can't think of an elapid that I would even consider for a first hot, but you might get a suggestion from someone else.

If only coral snakes weren't so difficult to feed...
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

I hear you about the corals. As if a couple 1000 mice/rats at a time doesn't cost enough

Steven,

Hm? Now, I'm confused...I didn't even really get Larry's comment. Aren't Micrurus spp. general reptile eaters? The implication I am receiving is that they be snake-exclusive-eaters, or prefer snakes more than not...?

And 1,000 mice/rats at a time? You don't mean per feeding...?!?? You mean ordered at a time, I hope...??

Timothy

>>I hear you about the corals. As if a couple 1000 mice/rats at a time doesn't cost enough

-----
T.J. Gould

From what I understand most are snake eaters. I have a few snakes that will only eat frogs and lizards and that is a pain as well. Rodent pro doesn't sell them and even if they did it probably wouldn't do me much good since some of mine (vine snakes) are sight hunters. I'm trying to figure out if i should start a frog colony just to offset some of my costs. $6 for an anole is the cheapest i can find live non rodent feeders around here.

I order 1000-2000 feeders (mice/rats/chicks/GP) every 6 months. I go through 40-60 a week. Of course some of those go to the caiman and large lizards so it isn't just the snakes, but it still can get pricey.

Steven,

Ah, I see on Micrurus. I have had plenty of lizard- and anuran-eaters including Ahaetulla* as well (which are indeed motion-detectors, of even the blinking and breathing of stationary prey!), feeders of which I was able to obtain plenty of year-round and cheap enough...$6 per anole?! Are You going through Petco or something?!?? I can get them for $1-$2/each depending on season. Same with (tree) frogs like Greens and Cubans. I used to get house geckos for $0.70/each.

Aside from opisthoglyphous snakes being my specialty the past 10-plus years, so have snakes with odd and unusual eating habits including Ahaetulla for lizards and anurans mentioned above which happens to be an opisthoglyphous genus; but also, a Dasypeltis scabra for Button Quail eggs, Ficimia sp./Gyalopion canum/Tantilla nigriceps for Vaejovis sp. ("Texas Gold Scorpions", obtained for $1.50/each!) and spiders, plenty of Heterodon platyrhinos and even H. simus which I REFUSE to feed mice and instead stick to their natural diet of anurans, among others. I love the rare and unusual stuff albeit many of these genera have become highly sought after by a good few over the last 10 years since I got into them.

I used to dream about starting Fowler's and American Toad colonies for not just myself, but as a business for Heterodon platyrhinos and H. simus keepers among keepers of other snakes demanding such species of anurans - maybe $0.25/each for babies and upwards to $1.00 max for ~3"-plus adults? Heh, someday maybe...

I think You should start a colony indeed!!

Gods, 1000-2000 feeders every six months...! I do maybe a few hundred in that time, and a dozen or so XXXXL GPs/small rabbits per year for my Eunectes notaeus (all through Rodent Pro as well). I wouldn't have the money for all of that!

Timothy

*I have had three (3) Ahaetulla prasina and one (1) A. mycterizans, ALL of which did very well. My longest-kept (in terms of Time) specimen was a ~6' 0.1 A. prasina that was actually supposed to be shipped with the A. mycterizans from East Bay Vivarium on 9/11 interestingly enough, but they were postponed (of course) until the end of September (2001). "Pinnocchia", I called her (-nn- intended), passed in August 2007 (forget exact date which I have written down). I'd throw in a mix of ~10 lizards/geckos/tree frogs every week or two - she was voracious (!!) yet gentle as could be when occasionally handled. They're so unique...I want more now! Haha.

>>From what I understand most are snake eaters. I have a few snakes that will only eat frogs and lizards and that is a pain as well. Rodent pro doesn't sell them and even if they did it probably wouldn't do me much good since some of mine (vine snakes) are sight hunters. I'm trying to figure out if i should start a frog colony just to offset some of my costs. $6 for an anole is the cheapest i can find live non rodent feeders around here.
>>
>>I order 1000-2000 feeders (mice/rats/chicks/GP) every 6 months. I go through 40-60 a week. Of course some of those go to the caiman and large lizards so it isn't just the snakes, but it still can get pricey.

-----
T.J. Gould

If you can direct me to your source i would be grateful. I live in a small town so I often do have to go to petco (2 towns over) and can't find any thing better local or mail order (by the time shipping is added). In the warm months i can catch feeders but the cool months are tough. I know people say to not use wc feeders but if i buy them they are just wc by someone else.

Steven,

Surely, I'd love to direct You to some sources! The two I used to go through: Exotic Aquatic Reptile (run by Jeff Kowalsky, from MI or MN - one of the northern "M" states) and Nature Coast Exotics (Florida) aren't around anymore, but I've been eyeing http://tailsnmore.com/ which happens to have three ads up on the first page of "Live & Frozen Feeder Classified" on Kingsnake.com for:

Green Tree Frogs: $2.75/each down to $2.00/each depending on the lot You order
Brown Anoles & House Geckos: $2.25/ea. down to (DT) $1.40/ea. depending on the lot (DOTL) again

Also, there is http://www.diamondreptile.com/, which have:

Brown Anoles: $3/ea. DT $2/ea. DOTL
Green Anoles: $4/ea. DT $3/ea. DOTL (stick with Browns)
Squirrel Tree Frogs: $2.50/ea DT $2/ea DOTL
Green Tree Frogs: $3/ea. (stick with the Squirrels)

Initially 10 years ago, I used to go through http://gherp.com/ but they've raised prices slightly. It's always a good backup source, and their prices will probably drop a little as weather becomes warmer, and quantities more plentiful (but they have unlimited Brown Anoles (indicated by asterisk ( * ) for $2/ea.).

Oh, and if You sign up to Bushmaster Reptiles' weekly email list: http://www.kingsnake.com/bushmaster/weekly.html, You'll see they often have 100-lot House Geckos for...I think $0.70/ea.!! However, it's wholesale, and they require a $400 minimum order...just find a new pet or two You'd like. They're pretty reputable, going around the world themselves occasionally and cherry-picking stuff.

Well, that should get You started, and I'd give Tails 'n More a try first. It's definitely better than $6-$7/anole from Petco, eh?!

FYI, it's not so much a secret anymore that some people have become skeptical in recent years to WC feeder herps, especially when 'excessively cheap.' This is *supposedly* because they come from pesticide- and/or fertilized-treated properties where they are somehow plentiful...?! I don't know, I never had an issue with the cheapest feeders.

Timothy

>>If you can direct me to your source i would be grateful. I live in a small town so I often do have to go to petco (2 towns over) and can't find any thing better local or mail order (by the time shipping is added). In the warm months i can catch feeders but the cool months are tough. I know people say to not use wc feeders but if i buy them they are just wc by someone else.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>Hm? Now, I'm confused...I didn't even really get Larry's comment. Aren't Micrurus spp. general reptile eaters? The implication I am receiving is that they be snake-exclusive-eaters, or prefer snakes more than not...?

Many will only eat snakes. Some will eat skinks, but they're not much easier to get. I've heard from at least one person who says they've gotten them to voluntarily takes strips cut from a larger snake which would greatly simplify things, but I've had no luck with it in the past.

I won't get another coral until I either have a steady supply of cheap small snakes or a breeding colony of skinks...which pretty much requires me to start breeding crickets again... ugh.
-----
What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Oh, and a few have gotten them to eat scented pinks, but again it hasn't worked for me.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

Hm...well, I have never scent-fed anything to my snakes and never will. I have a strong philosophy behind this which many debate with, and to keep it simple and in a nutshell, many species of snakes--and animals in general for that matter--have specialized diets for a reason, and these requirements should be respected in captivity, period. The animals will be healthier, happier, and live longer.

Let Us take Heterodon platyrhinos feeding on mice as an example of the detriment it brings upon the species. They will suffer gut impactions from the fur due to their digestive tract not being able to cope with it, fatty liver disease, and/or another disease or two I have read vague details on which in turn ALL shorten the species' lifespan.

My motto (self-wording): feed an animal only what it will naturally take on its own! Can't obtain the food or not cheaply enough? Don't keep it! In my message to Steven minutes earlier, I happen to mention my specializing in species with odd or unusual eating habits, and I was able to obtain food for them all (and within my budget). If I can, others can!

I also find it ridiculous when people argue against feeding toads because "their numbers are dwindling"...everything is dwindling until humanity wakes up and stops building! It's a code-phrase to cover their weakness of attachment to toads' cuteness which my girlfriend and I LOVE in toads, too (!!), but I like Nature as well...id est, if I am going to keep a gem of Nature in captivity, I want to enjoy it for what it is (meant to be)!

Gods, why don't people see mice as cute, too, and force an 18' Burmese to eat 10K crickets! ...or shove pinkies down an egg-eater's throat (in reference to excuses, such as price, of not obtaining proper food).

Sorry, this was nothing personal against You, Larry; I just get heated on this topic and need to share my logic and rationality which happens to be truth. Does it not make sense that, if You're going to keep, observe, and enjoy an animal for what it is, to feed it not just what it wants but what it needs?!?? This completes the entirety of actually KEEPING a species and studying it.

I just despise how people resort to scent-feeding mice to make it easier and cheaper on themselves, seemingly having NO concern for their animals' well-being and longevity whatsoever. It infuriates me, especially when they think they know everything or have "accomplished much" because they were able to get a picky eater onto easy 'n' cheap food...ugh, the ignorance! Or, perhaps breeders who have made it easy 'n' cheap to make more sales on ignorant customers, capitalizing on the animals' misfortune...!

In conclusion, if I ever have Micrurus someday, I, too, will make sure to have a colony of snakes and/or skinks to feed it!

On a different, but still related, note, if a species of snake has a varied diet, it should be respected and fulfilled like it is for many species of lizards (exempli gratia, Bearded Dragons), and like it is for humans, for different nutrients/vitamins/minerals are extracted from different foods. Exempli gratia, I feed my 1.1 Heterodon nasicus mostly mice (which they have naturally always taken on their own!) but intersperse their diet with a handful of toads throughout the year, and they still go back to mice voraciously the following week...sometimes, my 0.1 will eat a toad then fuzzies in the same feeding session! My 0.1 Leioheterodon madagascariensis I had for 7 years 4 months and 12 days before passing March 4th of this year - I fed her mice exclusively until 2-3 years ago when I introduced chicks which she loved more--but which I fed evenly or even less--and also Bull and Green Frogs last year which she went even more crazy for (!!)...I feel if I provided a more varied diet earlier in her life, she would have lived longer. :/ And so on with the examples...

The snakes will be healthier, happier, and live longer.

Timothy

>>Oh, and a few have gotten them to eat scented pinks, but again it hasn't worked for me.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

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T.J. Gould

Up to a certain point, I agree with you. However, before you get too agitated I suggest you think for a few minutes about how YOUR diet compares to what a "wild" human would be eating. You don't seem to have dropped dead yet. I'd be willing to bet that you didn't eat a single thing today that even exists in the wild.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

On quite the contrary, many foods I eat throughout my daily life come from some source of Mother Nature, just some--mostly meats here--have been transformed (exempli gratia, deli meats).

But sure, there is a HEL of a lot of stuff available to humans and which We consume but which is (very) bad (and only "sustains" You consequently), and for many-a-human, it has proven to take its toll. Sure, We live longer than, say, 1,000 years ago, but it is via unnatural ways such as life support machines and drugs, the latter of which only prolongs the inevitable and in the meantime weakens and makes more dependable Your body. Frankly, there is NO honour or dignity in going out this way! But then, I'm very ancient-minded on some things...

Anyway, just to confirm again, You, Larry, do know my spiel wasn't an attack on You, right? Obviously from Your prior response circling Micrurus and providing snakes and/or skinks, I was actually in agreement with You, for We seem to see the same way...which is why I find this response of Yours quite ironic, heh.

I don't know, though...I guess because I address the one I respond to (exempli gratia, starting with, 'Larry,...) which was You followed by my rant, I've been paranoid the past couple of days You'd take it as a personal hit, haha. I'm glad You didn't, though, because--again--my argument wasn't targeted towards You, for again, You implied having to supply snakes and/or skinks for Micrurus which goes in line with my philosophy...thus, still why I find this current response of Yours boggling, heh.

Timothy

>>Up to a certain point, I agree with you. However, before you get too agitated I suggest you think for a few minutes about how YOUR diet compares to what a "wild" human would be eating. You don't seem to have dropped dead yet. I'd be willing to bet that you didn't eat a single thing today that even exists in the wild.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

>>On quite the contrary, many foods I eat throughout my daily life come from some source of Mother Nature, just some--mostly meats here--have been transformed (exempli gratia, deli meats).

Nope. If you're eating farmed meats and veggies or almost any veggies you grow yourself, they are the result of hundreds, if not thousands, of generations of selective breeding and bear little resemblance to anything found in nature... (Probably less so with fish, but our ancestors probably weren't able to catch fish until fairly recently.)

>>Anyway, just to confirm again, You, Larry, do know my spiel wasn't an attack on You, right?

Yes.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

Larry,

I actually had this feeling You were going to mention selective breeding. I am well aware of Your argument; however, there always have been natural fruits and vegetables grown in Nature, and only those are the most pure and true to root (-in a literal and figurative context here), and if grown by oneself, they are most natural indeed.

Regarding meats, I do not necessarily speak of cattle and chickens. Frankly, I will have a cow and several chickens for milk/butter/cheese and eggs, respectively, and the latter naturally fertilized by rooster(s). Regarding eating meat, I would go on the wild hunt, and You cannot argue bear, deer, rabbit, and so on aren't natural...

And, of course, fish! Seafood is the most natural and healthiest for humans unless tainted by oil, radiation (!), and/or other pollution. By the way, many 'seaside cultures' have fished for millennia, especially the Northmen which is why modern-day Norwegians try to stray a little from the stereotype that all they eat (or are good for) is fish, fish, fish! They heavily bring pork into their diets, but they have yet to bring in poultry steadily.

In conclusion regarding snakes and other captive animals, where they come from and what they eat ARE natural (!), and just because humanity's diet has evolved into crap (...with corn syrup and preservatives in practically everything, even bread! Ugh...), it does NOT mean We should bestow malnutrition (id est, in the form of unnatural foods for Our ease and budget) upon Our pets!

Timothy

>>>>On quite the contrary, many foods I eat throughout my daily life come from some source of Mother Nature, just some--mostly meats here--have been transformed (exempli gratia, deli meats).
>>
>>Nope. If you're eating farmed meats and veggies or almost any veggies you grow yourself, they are the result of hundreds, if not thousands, of generations of selective breeding and bear little resemblance to anything found in nature... (Probably less so with fish, but our ancestors probably weren't able to catch fish until fairly recently.)
>>
>>>>Anyway, just to confirm again, You, Larry, do know my spiel wasn't an attack on You, right?
>>
>>Yes.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

Larry,

Haha, get the whole food chain going, eh? I had a partial food chain going years ago with breeding mice, but that was short-lived with my fulfilling hockey schedule among other activities and barely being able to keep up with my snakes.

Strips of a larger snake...hm...like strips of fish that Thamnophis spp. have been known to take. That's interesting.

If it makes You feel any better, I would say the most difficult genus to keep is, if I am recalling correctly from many years ago, Salvadora (Patch-Nosed Snakes) which only eat the eggs of lizards, perhaps one species of lizard...? It's definitely a western genus out there. But yeah, You'd have to breed this particular species of lizard and have a steady supply of eggs year-round and/or discover some way to preserve them...refrigeration perhaps, like with Button Quail eggs??

Timothy

>>>>Hm? Now, I'm confused...I didn't even really get Larry's comment. Aren't Micrurus spp. general reptile eaters? The implication I am receiving is that they be snake-exclusive-eaters, or prefer snakes more than not...?
>>
>>Many will only eat snakes. Some will eat skinks, but they're not much easier to get. I've heard from at least one person who says they've gotten them to voluntarily takes strips cut from a larger snake which would greatly simplify things, but I've had no luck with it in the past.
>>
>>I won't get another coral until I either have a steady supply of cheap small snakes or a breeding colony of skinks...which pretty much requires me to start breeding crickets again... ugh.
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

Larry,

Yes-yes, I do read, now, how my wording has come across all along, as though I (even subconsciously) plan to approach my hots like I do non-venomous snakes (in many aspects, but distance-wise in particular here). I hope You--and everyone else for that matter--know that I understand keeping my hands the snake's length away is the rule of thumb here, hence a 24" hook (or two) for babies as an example.

Indeed, though, one must still be able to read their snakes - that's a give-in.

Eh, frankly, I'm glad You don't have a suggestion, thus, I wouldn't want one from anyone else neither. Elapids aren't safe for beginning hot-keepers, this I have known since my interest for hots arose years ago. Coral Snakes...such beauties, though!

Timothy

>>>>Back to Death Adders, as much as I pride myself in escaping strikes or being able to read one ahead of time and retract,
>>
>>Just to mercilessly beat the dead horse again...
>>
>>This makes sense for non-venomous snakes but the concept has no place in thinking about hots. No part of your body should ever be where an unexpected strike should matter. You DO want to be able to pick up the clues to an impending strike, but only for purposes of knowing when the snake is about to fly off a hook and hurt itself or make your life "interesting".
>>
>>As for your actual question, the short version is that I can't think of an elapid that I would even consider for a first hot, but you might get a suggestion from someone else.
>>
>>If only coral snakes weren't so difficult to feed...
>>-----
>>What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

-----
T.J. Gould

Until my response to Ian just now, I noticed I was scientifically referring to Copperheads with simply Agkistrodon, or perhaps Agkistrodon sp(p)., as though they're the only members of the genus. I am well aware they share the genus with Cottommouths/Water Moccasins: A. piscivorus (sspp.) and Cantils: A. bilineatus (sspp.), just so everyone knows I'm up on my taxonomy, heh.

Thanks,
Timothy

>>Hello All,
>>
>>I am interested in finally starting with hots after keeping snakes for 19-plus* years (since 11/21/91 when I obtained an 0.0.1 Opheodrys aestivus as my first snake) and specializing in opisthoglyphous snakes for 10-plus years (since 1/5/01 when I obtained a 1.0 Chrysopelea ornata ssp. as my first opisthoglyph). I have mainly focused on the genera of Ahaetulla, Boiga, and Chrysopelea and have had great success.
>>
>>Now, despite what the subject title might imply, it's not like I haven't researched this inquiry already (in preparation), but it's been a while - my last spontaneous desire to 'move up' was a few years ago. Thus, I would like to hear a few good choices of hots that are good for a beginning hot keeper to start with. Sure, I could think Copperheads or Wagler's Viper because they're not fatal, but I know many believe disposition/demeanor/aggressiveness outweighs venom potency, and I know Copperheads are generally ill-tempered...right?
>>
>>Any and all input will be greatly appreciated, and feel free to tack on a few care tips and important notes of the species You suggest if You don't mind, please, thanks.
>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Timothy
>>
>>*Kingsnake doesn't let You use [plus] signs?? Haha...
>>-----
>>T.J. Gould

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T.J. Gould

Tim Even though the Copperhead has a fairly mild venom, they do have a tendency to be a little wirery,and often become sparatic feeders in the off season, which frustrates novice collectors.If you can deal with these small hurdels they are very nice snakes. On another note I would not recomend Cantils as a beginer snake under any situation. I have had some experience with these guys ,you need to be at the top of your game with these.Think it through,and make the right choice,any and all of them can kill. Chris

Chris,

So, You really advise against Agkistrodon bilineatus sspp.? That makes quite the contrast to Ian's second suggestion. Of course, he did acknowledge they are snappy; however, he believes this makes them predictable which implies "safety" in some sense, and he goes on to say they're more manageable than he made them seem.

This is good - getting various input, that is, and rationalizing it out. I will steer towards Agkistrodon contortrix sspp., the genus Atropoides, and then Tropidolaemus wagleri as first choice considerations then, unless given question otherwise again. As stated in my response to Ian, Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. have enough class for me.

As a last note, I have been through quite some hurdles with various snakes, including fasting or finicky feeding habits/schedules (often triggered by my cooling periods, though: slight decrease in photoperiod and temperature). Such does not discourage or deter me, but thank You for the heads up - it is much appreciated.

Timothy

>>Tim Even though the Copperhead has a fairly mild venom, they do have a tendency to be a little wirery,and often become sparatic feeders in the off season, which frustrates novice collectors.If you can deal with these small hurdels they are very nice snakes. On another note I would not recomend Cantils as a beginer snake under any situation. I have had some experience with these guys ,you need to be at the top of your game with these.Think it through,and make the right choice,any and all of them can kill. Chris

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T.J. Gould

A. Bilineatus is A very hardy feeder,and in most cases will some what settle down over time, but can change temperment in a heart beat. Its venom is quite toxic in spite of what some people would say.Though some what common in collections, I think alot of collectors now seem to under estimate them. Be safe Chris

Chris,

Well, since I consider myself a being of common sense, logic, and fear (towards Mother Nature), I will never fall into the "under-estimation" category (again), not after having learned all that I have in these past few days since my original post. It's good to be humbled and learn!

Timothy

>>A. Bilineatus is A very hardy feeder,and in most cases will some what settle down over time, but can change temperment in a heart beat. Its venom is quite toxic in spite of what some people would say.Though some what common in collections, I think alot of collectors now seem to under estimate them. Be safe Chris

-----
T.J. Gould

One thing worth noting — if it's already been mentioned, I apologize — is to choose a snake that, if you are bitten, your local medical facilities can treat. I'd rather take my chances with something a little more dangerous that I know my local hospital has had experience with than go with an exotic with a milder venom. Maybe it's just me, but I'm more comfortable knowing that the hospital located six miles from my house has, at one time or another, treated bites from every venomous snake I own.

With antivenom being the issue. Protocol for non elapid snakes in the U.S. is crofab F.D.A. approved is not as reliable as many other anti venoms I would be more comfortable with the jumping viper that in many cases do not require antivenom rather than a native snake possibly more toxic in order to be able to use the F.D.A. product.Worst case the Crofab could be used on the jumping viper bite. Bottom line is do all you can to not get bit. BE CAREFUL AT ALL TIMES Chris

Chris,

So, CroFab is used for ALL non-Elapid snakes within the U.S., regardless if native or exotic? Id est, it is used for Agkistrodon, Crotalus, Atropoides, Tropidolaemus wagleri, and Bothriechis schlegelii alike?

Or is CroFab only for native, non-Elapid snakes? Id est, for ALL poisonous snakes within the U.S. excluding the Coral Snakes? I believe the former guess, as You mention "worst case" as taking CroFab for a Jumping Viper bite, in which Atropoides isn't a native genus.

F.D.A. is basically for...what, Elapids? I suppose I was thrown off with, "...rather than a native snake possibly more toxic..." which opened up ambiguity, as that sounds synonymous with the Coral Snakes...?

Sorry, I just want to make sure I read everyone accurately which will aid me in learning the most and best I can.

Agreed, keeping Yourself from getting bit is the best preventative measure.

Timothy

>>With antivenom being the issue. Protocol for non elapid snakes in the U.S. is crofab F.D.A. approved is not as reliable as many other anti venoms I would be more comfortable with the jumping viper that in many cases do not require antivenom rather than a native snake possibly more toxic in order to be able to use the F.D.A. product.Worst case the Crofab could be used on the jumping viper bite. Bottom line is do all you can to not get bit. BE CAREFUL AT ALL TIMES Chris

-----
T.J. Gould

Robert,

Indeed, it makes sense, but I think most any exotic hot could prove tough to get antivenin for in many places. :/ This is one of a few good reasons I would like to possibly pursue antivenin practices, especially for hots I'd be keeping, and perhaps for the most commonly kept species by other keepers.

If I could start with my indigenous Agkistrodon contortrix mokasen then eventually Crotalus horridus, I would, but with them both being "Endangered" in my state, it'd be near-impossible. My dream with these two species is to actually get on some type of breeding program with the state to maybe help re-establish/replenish certain populations. I actually don't believe in meddling with Nature and instead let It take Its course; however, for what humanity has destroyed, We should rectify. Sexual maturity at eight (8) years and females breeding every-other year with such few babies...well, Crotalus horridus could use some help - again, for what humanity has destroyed; not what Mother Nature has chosen to take Herself!

Timothy

>>One thing worth noting — if it's already been mentioned, I apologize — is to choose a snake that, if you are bitten, your local medical facilities can treat. I'd rather take my chances with something a little more dangerous that I know my local hospital has had experience with than go with an exotic with a milder venom. Maybe it's just me, but I'm more comfortable knowing that the hospital located six miles from my house has, at one time or another, treated bites from every venomous snake I own.
-----
T.J. Gould

My first was an eyelash viper (Bothriechis schlegelii) and it is still one of my favorites. Good feeder, rides a hook well, rarely need to clean the cage. As a baby it did need tease fed pinky parts and getting him untangled from his perch is tough, but it is the easiest of all my snakes to care for other than my daughters corns. I have a few copperheads and they are pretty easy as well. They don't ride a hook as well and get larger but are still a pretty good first. My small rattlers are a pain on a hook but some aren't too bad. The pygmies are faily easy to care for. My mohaves are evil. Stay away from the big rattlers. I have a timber that will "dash" across the cage if he thinks you are going to open the door and every time i walk by I hear a "thump" from him striking the glass. They are also harder to move around or remove from the cage due to size and weight. Gabboons are easy as baibies except that they often have to be led to water, but they quickly get so heavy that you have to use you hooks to drag them around since they are hard to lift. The fact that they are super fast will make you jump the first time it feeds, but you shouldn't be in strike range anyway. No elapids are good beginner snakes in my opinion. They are just too active and excitable.
Hope i helped

Steven,

Thanks for the concoction of various tidbits! All I can gather, the better!

I always thought Bothriechis schlegelii was beautiful, especially the "Golden Eyelash" variety, in which I just came to realize there are no known subspecies by Wikipedia (I thought there were). It appears as though there are just different phases like with Tropidolaemus wagleri...?

It seems as though it is unanimously voted upon that Agkistrodon contortrix sspp. aren't hook-rideable, heh. But it also seems agreed upon by most that they're still a good first hot.

I am more or less surprised no one else until now has suggested a rattler. I remember my Father picking up a Sistrurus miliarius ssp. in FL when I was 7 or 8, to hold up to my Step Grandfather's window (strapped in his car!) whom was deathly afraid of snakes and startle him. I know they stay small, and they're also on the low end for fatality--again (from earlier posts), I am to take NO hot lightly!--so I will consider them, too. (Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, antivenin for this genus is ineffective most times...?) Mojaves = evil, got it! If I could keep my native Crotalus horridus, I would, but they're "Endangered" here.

Baby Bitis gabonica sspp. needing to be led to water - heh, that's kind of cute. I hear they're actually quite placid, is this true? I think Larry was kind of leaning towards them for a first hot except for his acknowledgement of their mighty fast strike which provided me with a little caution...longest fangs, too, at ~2", this I remember learning from early years in the hobby.

I wasn't considering Elapids for a very looong time! ...although I do admit my fascination with Our one-and-only native group: the Coral Snakes, but I am faaar from ready for them, this I know!

Indeed, Steven, You helped a lot, thanks much!!

Timothy

>>My first was an eyelash viper (Bothriechis schlegelii) and it is still one of my favorites. Good feeder, rides a hook well, rarely need to clean the cage. As a baby it did need tease fed pinky parts and getting him untangled from his perch is tough, but it is the easiest of all my snakes to care for other than my daughters corns. I have a few copperheads and they are pretty easy as well. They don't ride a hook as well and get larger but are still a pretty good first. My small rattlers are a pain on a hook but some aren't too bad. The pygmies are faily easy to care for. My mohaves are evil. Stay away from the big rattlers. I have a timber that will "dash" across the cage if he thinks you are going to open the door and every time i walk by I hear a "thump" from him striking the glass. They are also harder to move around or remove from the cage due to size and weight. Gabboons are easy as baibies except that they often have to be led to water, but they quickly get so heavy that you have to use you hooks to drag them around since they are hard to lift. The fact that they are super fast will make you jump the first time it feeds, but you shouldn't be in strike range anyway. No elapids are good beginner snakes in my opinion. They are just too active and excitable.
>>Hope i helped
-----
T.J. Gould

For what it's worth, I'll add my .02 to the mix...

First things first, make sure that vens are legal where you live...I know you said that you're in the process of getting permits, but if you can't get the permits then all of this discussion is somewhat of a moot point. (Good from an educational standpoint, but moot from a husbandry standpoint.)

Second, I've seen the physical aspects of a bite covered to varying degrees here...Which is good, because it is a consideration...but just as important are the financial aspects of a potential bite...I'm not sure what kind of medical insurance you have, but a snakebite is EXPENSIVE...Also, many carriers won't cover it if they become aware that you were bitten by a captive snake. Can you afford to shell out $50,000 for a momentary lapse of judgement?

Along those same lines, while Agkistrodon contortrix or Sistrurus milarius aren't likely to kill you, in the event that you are bitten extremity morbidity is a distinct possibility...something to consider if you work in a profession that requires manual dexterity (or play a guitar as you mentioned). There are so many variables here that I won't attempt to list them all, but suffice it to say that a snakebite is painful in many more ways than the physical pain itself.

I won't give a species recommendation because well...I don't think there are any good "beginner" venomous snakes...They can all kill and maim...copperhead to Gaboon to monocled cobra...they're all dangerous and statistically speaking the most dangerous snake is the one that just bit you. That said, I would recommend AGAINST getting a snake that was "placid"...You'll be surprised...after a few years, you might begin to think you "know" the snake and that's when you get complacent...and when the snake has a "bad day". Instead, consider a snake with a reputation for "spunkiness"...The advantage here is that you ALWAYS know where you stand with that animal and your guard is always up in dealing with it. It's hard to get complacent with a 5 foot atrox that isn't shy to let you know how it feels about you.

I'm not trying to discourage you...Sounds like you've done a good bit of research here, and you are to be commended for that...Too many people don't and it winds up giving all ven keepers a black eye in the public scene. In the end, I'd HIGHLY recommend going the mentor route, but failing that get something that you feel is within your skillset (after critically examining what your skillset that is). Also, get something that you'll enjoy caring for for the rest of it's life...If you won't be fascinated by it 2 years from now, best not to go down that road to begin with.

-Kris

Well said.

Kris,

Indeed, it is illegal to keep hots within my state without permits, and eligibility for them is still in the works - my credibility and qualifications being vouched for by "connections"...I hate that term as it has a bad connotation to me in this context, like it implies I wouldn't get approved legitimately. But I am legit, and I have yet to heighten this via forwarding to the state I would like a mentor if one can be sought out for me (even from a zoo, where I'd put in the hours without pay as an example of a scenario).

Even if denied, I would not see "all of this discussion [as] somewhat of a moot point" because I have actually had ambitions to move out of this state for a handful of years now (to Europe eventually believe it or not, but I consider Alaska, down south to the Carolinas or FL, or southwest for now). I have various reasons for wanting to leave the state I have been born and raised into for 27 years. So, it is good preparation, I say on the contrary.

Probably the greatest thing You have brought to my attention is the cost of a snakebite! I'll be honest and perceive Your $50K quote as an exaggeration, heh, but if a copy of a bill can be scanned and uploaded for my viewing pleasure, I will believe it. Nonetheless, I can imagine it's expensive, and I can further imagine I'd be hit even harder if found out to be from an 'enjoyment pet.' This is something for me to think about, but honestly, I try to be quite the optimist and positive believer, and I cross bridges when I get to them. This is NOT to say I might not prepare a little via saving money in my coming years (and forever more all of the time I were to keep hots) plus consulting with insurance companies, but I won't lose sleep or fret over it.

This would also be saying everyone gets hit with the 'dilemma of a thought' about snakebite cost...and obviously, it hasn't deterred any of You, has it? ...unless, of course, You're just all rich, ha!

"There are so many variables here that I won't attempt to list them all, but suffice it to say that a snakebite is painful in many more ways than the physical pain itself."

I cannot see not being able to agree more as the possibilities of impairment are probably beyond comprehensible mind, and if read correctly as a figure of speech-like, I can only fathom what the all-around pain would be like. Again, common sense, practicality, a clear head, and utilizing logic are what seem to keep one safe. No one is perfect, and no one can resist the words of Destiny...id est, if something is to happen in spite of doing everything by the book, so it is.

"...they're all dangerous and statistically speaking the most dangerous snake is the one that just bit you."

Very well said, Sir! I like the sound of that, and I can't say it sounds less than the truth. As I have acknowledged in previous responses--being corrected from my slight ignorance in my original message--NO hot is to be underestimated, this I know (now)!

I also like how You have become the second or third person to state that perhaps having a more 'permanently' nippy snake may be better than a "placid" one which a keeper could become "complacent" to - it makes sense, for a specimen that "isn't shy to let you know how it feels about you" would keep a keeper on their toes!!

Thank You for the acknowledgement of me going about this maturely, responsibly, and professionally, and perhaps 'humbly' for my own choice of words. I am naturally humble, but I admit I am proud of how long I have stuck with the hobby, and also that I perceive my herps AS PETS which I keep to the end! ...to ease Your last concern.

Back to responsibly approaching the new grounds I am ambitious for, I just don't want to become a statistic, and I also feel for the 'hot community' when an egotistical, arrogant, ignorant, know-it-all takes this part of the hobby up for the notoriety, prestige, whatever and gets himself killed (or even maimed) which makes the good, smart, and responsible hot-keepers such as Yourselves LOOK BAD. I want to do things right and gain these new experience safely, legally, and legitimately.

Lastly, I really, truly thank You, Kris, and everyone else on here who has responded with their utmost concern for my and everyone else's safety, and having provided the best and most professional advice possible to learn correctly. It is MUCH appreciated!!

Timothy

>>For what it's worth, I'll add my .02 to the mix...
>>
>>First things first, make sure that vens are legal where you live...I know you said that you're in the process of getting permits, but if you can't get the permits then all of this discussion is somewhat of a moot point. (Good from an educational standpoint, but moot from a husbandry standpoint.)
>>
>>Second, I've seen the physical aspects of a bite covered to varying degrees here...Which is good, because it is a consideration...but just as important are the financial aspects of a potential bite...I'm not sure what kind of medical insurance you have, but a snakebite is EXPENSIVE...Also, many carriers won't cover it if they become aware that you were bitten by a captive snake. Can you afford to shell out $50,000 for a momentary lapse of judgement?
>>
>>Along those same lines, while Agkistrodon contortrix or Sistrurus milarius aren't likely to kill you, in the event that you are bitten extremity morbidity is a distinct possibility...something to consider if you work in a profession that requires manual dexterity (or play a guitar as you mentioned). There are so many variables here that I won't attempt to list them all, but suffice it to say that a snakebite is painful in many more ways than the physical pain itself.
>>
>>I won't give a species recommendation because well...I don't think there are any good "beginner" venomous snakes...They can all kill and maim...copperhead to Gaboon to monocled cobra...they're all dangerous and statistically speaking the most dangerous snake is the one that just bit you. That said, I would recommend AGAINST getting a snake that was "placid"...You'll be surprised...after a few years, you might begin to think you "know" the snake and that's when you get complacent...and when the snake has a "bad day". Instead, consider a snake with a reputation for "spunkiness"...The advantage here is that you ALWAYS know where you stand with that animal and your guard is always up in dealing with it. It's hard to get complacent with a 5 foot atrox that isn't shy to let you know how it feels about you.
>>
>>I'm not trying to discourage you...Sounds like you've done a good bit of research here, and you are to be commended for that...Too many people don't and it winds up giving all ven keepers a black eye in the public scene. In the end, I'd HIGHLY recommend going the mentor route, but failing that get something that you feel is within your skillset (after critically examining what your skillset that is). Also, get something that you'll enjoy caring for for the rest of it's life...If you won't be fascinated by it 2 years from now, best not to go down that road to begin with.
>>
>>-Kris
-----
T.J. Gould

I can vouch for a $62,000 hospital bill for an atrox bite with only 4 vials given.

And no, I will not post a copy of the bills.
-----
Tim Cole
www.austinherpsociety.org
www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
www.AustinReptileService.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
Conservation through Education

Tim,

Hm...well, then, I suppose I will have to take Your word for it. Crazy!

Timothy

>>I can vouch for a $62,000 hospital bill for an atrox bite with only 4 vials given.
>>
>>And no, I will not post a copy of the bills.
>>-----
>>Tim Cole
>>www.austinherpsociety.org
>>www.AustinReptileExpo.com/
>>www.AustinReptileService.net
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<
>>Conservation through Education
-----
T.J. Gould

I've heard of 100k or more bills after a bite

Steven,

Hm...that's intense if true! Again, I will give the benefit of the doubt and take everyone's word for these astronomical bills, but I will be validating in the meantime.

So, are We all loaded with money on here, did You all find great insurance companies that cover pet-venomous-snakebites, and/or do We just take Our chances?

I have a sincere scientific purpose along with enjoyment as reasons for wanting to venture into hots; NOT notoriety or image, and I am approaching this properly via consulting all of You for advice, so I will not be discouraged by such bills. As previously stated, it is still good to know, and I will keep as much reserve money aside as possible throughout the years.

Timothy

>>I've heard of 100k or more bills after a bite
-----
T.J. Gould

As of now I'm taking my chances. It is best to be informed ahead of time though.

Steven,

Thanks for the honesty! Indeed, agreed, and thanks to ALL for the forewarnings - it is much appreciated.

Timothy

>>As of now I'm taking my chances. It is best to be informed ahead of time though.

-----
T.J. Gould

I am considering the same thing!!

I am specifically wanting a gloydius blomhoffi or gloydius tsushimaensis, the Japanese Mamushi.

I was advised to begin working with a non-poisonous, extremely ill-tempered snake that is similar in body, movement, and speed to the mamushi. the more ill-tempered, the better. something named "little bastard" or "satan" by the pet shop staff would be perfect.

Does anyone here have any idea what kind of non-poisonous snake would be comparable to mamushi?

Thanks and sorry for hijacking your thread ha ha but maybe the tip about getting a violent non-hot to train with is good advice for you too?

"windchild",

Hmmm...I didn't really think of it, for I suppose having worked with large, squirmy, and nippy boids significantly enough--and also quite the nervous Chrysopelea spp. and Boiga dendrophila ssp. in my 10-plus years of working with opisthoglyphous snakes--over the years has made me feel ready for the most manageable hot. A good few who have replied to me advise perhaps a more aggressive species that will always keep me on my toes so as to not become "complacent" with it, for "placid" snakes can have a bad day and get You years down the road.

I suppose I just can't think of anything more ill-tempered than what I have worked with already. It's probably a good suggestion otherwise...?

Timothy

>>I am considering the same thing!!
>>
>>I am specifically wanting a gloydius blomhoffi or gloydius tsushimaensis, the Japanese Mamushi.
>>
>>I was advised to begin working with a non-poisonous, extremely ill-tempered snake that is similar in body, movement, and speed to the mamushi. the more ill-tempered, the better. something named "little bastard" or "satan" by the pet shop staff would be perfect.
>>
>>Does anyone here have any idea what kind of non-poisonous snake would be comparable to mamushi?
>>
>>Thanks and sorry for hijacking your thread ha ha but maybe the tip about getting a violent non-hot to train with is good advice for you too?

-----
T.J. Gould

um...both of those suggestions are venomous snakes...I said I wanted an aggressive NON venomous snake to train with BEFORE I get the mamushi!!

I want to TRAIN UP to the mamushi. I do not want to train with venomous snakes. I want an aggressive non-venomous snake, SIMILAR to mamushi.

any ideas?

Mamushis are nice snakes ,Alittle snappy but easy to control. Be careful about treating them for parasites they are prone. Also I really dont think that useing a non venomous for practice is much help ,it all comes down to being as careful as possible education of the snake along with fear and respect is going to be your best bet. There is know substitute for the real thing. Always be aware of the fall out if something goes wrong. Chris

Chris,

Indeed, after having Wikipedia'd the Mamushi, I discovered a most beautiful and amazing snake! ...and I believe it's the one a friend of mine was talking about, from Japan (and elsewhere, it seems), that possesses three (3) "types" of venom: hemolytic toxins, and two types of neurotoxins: an alpha- and beta-toxin that are post- and pre-synaptic, respectively (reference: Wikipedia).

I like what You say about the irrelevance of dealing with a large, nervous, and aggressive harmless colubrid not being the same as the "real thing." The fact the realization of Your life being on the line when dealing with hots changes ALL dimensions physical and mental, I would think. And indeed, 'coming to learn, fear, and respect the animal for the ultimate power and perfection that it beholds' (to quote myself of an earlier message, haha), and utilizing common sense, practicality, logic, exhibiting safe practices, and maintaining a clear head while dealing with hots is what I see as keeping You all--and soon, myself--as safe as Destiny permits.

Timothy

>>Mamushis are nice snakes ,Alittle snappy but easy to control. Be careful about treating them for parasites they are prone. Also I really dont think that useing a non venomous for practice is much help ,it all comes down to being as careful as possible education of the snake along with fear and respect is going to be your best bet. There is know substitute for the real thing. Always be aware of the fall out if something goes wrong. Chris

-----
T.J. Gould

"windchild",

Eh, You're one of those "group-harmless-opisthoglyphous-snakes-with-Vipers-and-Elapids" type, aren't You? It's okay, I am used to it from the Northeast. But straight and simply, it is wrong. Sure, Chrysopelea and Boiga are venomous, but so isn't a honey bee or an Emperor Scorpion. There are different levels of venomous: vaguely, mildly and highly, period.

I suppose this is why I often--though I hadn't on here until now--refer to the highly (or deadly-) venomous snakes as 'poisonous,' in clear distinguishment from those venomous genera that have yet to be responsible for a fatality.

In conclusion, I believe getting started with (nervous) opisthoglyphous snakes like I have worked with for 10-plus years would be beneficial, and thus perhaps what You are looking for.

Good luck with Your search otherwise.

Timothy

>>um...both of those suggestions are venomous snakes...I said I wanted an aggressive NON venomous snake to train with BEFORE I get the mamushi!!
>>
>>I want to TRAIN UP to the mamushi. I do not want to train with venomous snakes. I want an aggressive non-venomous snake, SIMILAR to mamushi.
>>
>>any ideas?

-----
T.J. Gould

thanks for the feedback!
so these snakes are of a "mild" type of venom?
i'll see how hard they are to get here in Japan.

sorry for the late reply, this board is super hard to read.
other forums show all messages on one page,
this forum has it all in link format.
PIA.
-----
ED

"windchild",

No problem! So, You're from Japan itself?!?? That's cool!

Indeed, the genera: Ahaetulla, Boiga, and Chrysopelea are ALL of a mild venom indeed. In the few cases of allergic reactions to Boiga envenomations (which require chewing for most opisthoglyphous snakes, do note, or a somehow 'far/deep bite,' I'll call it), hospital visits are often necessary. But similar courses of action have been taken for people getting stung by Lion Fish and Anemones among other fish in the Marine hobby, and NO fatalities have occurred.

Thus, opsithoglyphous snakes with the exception of Dispholidus typus and Thelotornis spp. which have been responsible for fatalities should NOT be considered on-par with Vipers and Elapids in venom potency, and consequently should NOT be banned anywhere in my opinion.

All three of those aforementioned genera coming from SE Asia and being very popular and easy to obtain (minus Chrysopelea which can be seasonal, and their season has near-ended), You should be able to attain them easy enough. They are relatively cheap, too, with Boiga spp., Chrysopelea paradisii and C. pelias being the most expensive (here in the States at least), and also the occasional rare Ahaetulla sp. demands a high price tag.

No problem on Your issue with the board - I hadn't been on here (regularly) in years until last week with this whole thread, and I had to readjust a little. On any message page--NOT the one You're writing on--You can click "Show entire thread", and it'll make for a somewhat easier, 'indented staircase' read. Also, click "Receive notification when response is made" (or whatever it says exactly), so that You may quickly know when someone has responded to You.

Timothy

>>thanks for the feedback!
>>so these snakes are of a "mild" type of venom?
>>i'll see how hard they are to get here in Japan.
>>
>>
>>sorry for the late reply, this board is super hard to read.
>>other forums show all messages on one page,
>>this forum has it all in link format.
>>PIA.
>>-----
>>ED
-----
T.J. Gould

wicked!
thanks!
-----
ED

>>wicked!
>>thanks!
>>-----
>>ED
-----
T.J. Gould

Tim...

Let me relate a story from firsthand knowledge so that my claim of a "$50,000 snakebite" can be substantiated. This didn't happen to me, but I was there when it happened so I can personally vouch for it.

A couple friends and I were hiking in western Arizona, when one of my friends found a female Crotalus mitchelli pyrrhus (southwestern speckled rattlesnake). He was standing on a jumble of decomposed granite when the snake was spotted, and as he tried to move, a rock slid out from under his foot and he slipped. When he did so, he (understandably) stuck his left arm out to break his fall. The only problem is that in doing so he inadvertently placed his hand a little too close to the snake. The snake bit him on the knuckle of his left thumb and penetrated with one fang. I saw this happen so I can say with 100% certainty that this is EXACTLY what happened...no daredevil tricks, no stupid liberties taken. If you field herp in "rattlesnake country" this scenario could very easily happen to you.

I'll fast forward to the hospital stay, which lasted 3 days in ICU. His entire arm had swelled up grotesquely, and he had apparent bruising from his armpit all the way down to about halfway down torso. I was there to witness this firsthand, and I can tell you that from his perspective this definitely was NOT a pleasant experience.

The reason I'm telling you this is because in all he received 32 vials of CroFab...at a cost of approximately $1500.00 a vial...so, some quick calculation here....1500.00*32=$48,000.00! This of course does not include any physician fees, administration fees or any other fees relating to the incidient...this $48,000.00 represents ONLY the cost of the CroFab itself. Luckily, he had GREAT medical insurance and (because this was not a "captive snake" incident), his insurance company covered the majority of the costs.

A year later, he has suffered no long term effects from the bite...no loss of dexterity of the thumb or anything...he was lucky. We talk often about what the situation would have been like had the snake got him with BOTH fangs...it would have been decidedly nasty.

Sorry, I don't have a copy of the medical bill.

With reference to the other poster stating he wanted to work with a harmless snake to prepare him for venomous...This sounds good, and I can even see the logic in thinking this way...But in my opinion there really is no substitute for working with venomous...I don't know how to explain it, except to say that there's just something subconscious about knowing that the snake on the other end of your hook or tongs is fully capable of ending your life. That knowledge (and the corresponding way one responds to it) just can't be simulated.

I'm not saying it's a BAD idea to work with pissy non-vens...any experience is good experience in that regard...what I AM saying is that it is unrealistic to think that any amount of experience with a non-ven is going to prepare you for working with vens. Mentally (and reflexively) it just isn't so (at least not in my experience).

-Kris

Kris,

Well, as aforementioned in earlier posts, I have had antivenin ambitions for years, and though for a sincere purpose of creating more of a supply which may hopefully lower the price per vial for victims, I will admit I have seen the business potential of going into such a profession. I can believe $1,500 per vial for sure, and if 32 vials indeed--crazy difference from someone else on here who mentioned only needing four (4), but this obviously depends on MANY variables such as species, venom yield, and immunity, this I know--numbers don't lie! $48K for antivenin...wow!

But it still doesn't discourage me.

On a last note regarding this story, never look at "what ifs" or "could haves" too much, as it can make one dwell and go crazy on alternative outcomes that just - didn't - occur! Everything happens for a reason/has a purpose and is meant to happen, the good and especially the bad, and Destiny will decide on what does happen!

Consider Your friend of fortune indeed, but do not dwell on what he could have lost as it amounts to nothing.

In response to Your last part referencing "windchild" inquiring about "similar" aggressive non-venomous snakes - did you not catch my reply to Chris/"millet"?!?? Here: http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1899369,1900964. I stated:

'I like what You say about the irrelevance of dealing with a large, nervous, and aggressive harmless colubrid not being the same as the "real thing." The fact the realization of Your life being on the line when dealing with hots changes ALL dimensions physical and mental, I would think. And indeed, 'coming to learn, fear, and respect the animal for the ultimate power and perfection that it beholds' (to quote myself of an earlier message, haha), and utilizing common sense, practicality, logic, exhibiting safe practices, and maintaining a clear head while dealing with hots is what I see as keeping You all--and soon, myself--as safe as Destiny permits.'

Thus, I was in agreement with Chris/"millet" which is what You, Kris, are saying now, too. The closest implication I gave to starting with something else first was stated in my second response to "windchild":

'In conclusion, I believe getting started with (nervous) opisthoglyphous snakes like I have worked with for 10-plus years would be beneficial, and thus perhaps what You are looking for.'

Sure, they're not life-threatening hots, but baby steps, right? One step at a time? It's as though You imply since nothing else is like dealing with a life-threatening hot, even someone who hasn't kept ONE herp could just start with hots because they're such a different ballpark...

You have to know how to handle a calm, and harmless, snake before You can do nervous/aggressive snakes (still harmless), large boids, then opsithoglyphous species - especially nervous/aggressive ones! - which can still send someone to the medical room albeit won't be fatal (minus Dispholidus typus and Thelotornis spp.). This is all in my opinion. "wildchild" obviously has herp experience, but I suppose I believe one cannot just jump from Corn Snakes to hots and learn anew as though harmless snake-experience has no significance...because now, You're dealing with death. I've spent 20 years building up my experience from 'group' to group or 'type' to type. I don't think someone keeping harmless stuff for a year or two should get to work with hots next...

Is this making sense? Sorry, but I keep replaying what I have typed as I type more, and it's like this can only be explained in so many words. :/ It's simple logic to me...

In the end, again, I was in agreement with Chris/"millet" as I am You, Kris.

Timothy

>>Tim...
>>
>>Let me relate a story from firsthand knowledge so that my claim of a "$50,000 snakebite" can be substantiated. This didn't happen to me, but I was there when it happened so I can personally vouch for it.
>>
>>A couple friends and I were hiking in western Arizona, when one of my friends found a female Crotalus mitchelli pyrrhus (southwestern speckled rattlesnake). He was standing on a jumble of decomposed granite when the snake was spotted, and as he tried to move, a rock slid out from under his foot and he slipped. When he did so, he (understandably) stuck his left arm out to break his fall. The only problem is that in doing so he inadvertently placed his hand a little too close to the snake. The snake bit him on the knuckle of his left thumb and penetrated with one fang. I saw this happen so I can say with 100% certainty that this is EXACTLY what happened...no daredevil tricks, no stupid liberties taken. If you field herp in "rattlesnake country" this scenario could very easily happen to you.
>>
>>I'll fast forward to the hospital stay, which lasted 3 days in ICU. His entire arm had swelled up grotesquely, and he had apparent bruising from his armpit all the way down to about halfway down torso. I was there to witness this firsthand, and I can tell you that from his perspective this definitely was NOT a pleasant experience.
>>
>>The reason I'm telling you this is because in all he received 32 vials of CroFab...at a cost of approximately $1500.00 a vial...so, some quick calculation here....1500.00*32=$48,000.00! This of course does not include any physician fees, administration fees or any other fees relating to the incidient...this $48,000.00 represents ONLY the cost of the CroFab itself. Luckily, he had GREAT medical insurance and (because this was not a "captive snake" incident), his insurance company covered the majority of the costs.
>>
>>A year later, he has suffered no long term effects from the bite...no loss of dexterity of the thumb or anything...he was lucky. We talk often about what the situation would have been like had the snake got him with BOTH fangs...it would have been decidedly nasty.
>>
>>Sorry, I don't have a copy of the medical bill.
>>
>>With reference to the other poster stating he wanted to work with a harmless snake to prepare him for venomous...This sounds good, and I can even see the logic in thinking this way...But in my opinion there really is no substitute for working with venomous...I don't know how to explain it, except to say that there's just something subconscious about knowing that the snake on the other end of your hook or tongs is fully capable of ending your life. That knowledge (and the corresponding way one responds to it) just can't be simulated.
>>
>>I'm not saying it's a BAD idea to work with pissy non-vens...any experience is good experience in that regard...what I AM saying is that it is unrealistic to think that any amount of experience with a non-ven is going to prepare you for working with vens. Mentally (and reflexively) it just isn't so (at least not in my experience).
>>
>>-Kris

-----
T.J. Gould