Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone. I currently care for a young pair of savannah monitors and a four foot red tail boa. I am looking to set up a breeding colony to cut down on costs.

I have over ten years experience caring for pet rats including raising litters from pregnant rescues. I've no questions regarding the care of mice, but more so about colony maintenance.

My boa needs two mice every one or two weeks. My savannah monitors would probably devour the entire colony, but probably only need (# of mouse/day): eight pinks, six fuzzies, four hoppers, or two weaners.

I was thinking of having a breeder bin (or multiple), a monitor feeding bin, and a boa feeding bin. Breeder bin would supply the monitor feeding bin, a few from the monitor bin would supply the boa bin, and a few from the boa bin would re-stock the breeder bin every few months. I probably wouldn't feed off young mice from the breeder bin because I know mice are a pain in the ass when they become stressed.

Questions:

1) Are there any issues with the above system?
2) How many mice would you estimate I need to start? 1.4? Two groups of 1.4?
3) If I had more than one group, should I establish them at different times so that their breeding cycles are different?
4) How do you keep the gene pool diverse enough to maintain a healthy colony?
5) If the bin remains clean, resources are adequate, and there is no overcrowding, what is the likelihood that a male will kill off a litter?

Thank you so much!

I'm also thinking of doing the same thing and this is how I figured it out. I have the advantage of feeding frozen thawed which is nice because I can pull out what I need, gas them, and freeze them. When the freezer gets too full I'll just seperate the breeders. But I have seven ball pythons so weekly I feed 3 mice (which will soon be rat pups), 3 rat pups, and 1 weaned rat. My plan is to start with one female, but I'll probably need two and 1 male. I've read that the animals live great as a family. I'm going to house the colony together in a fifty five gallon aquarium. The only time I plan on pulling the male out is when I see the mother(s) are pregnant. I'll pull him only for a couple of weeks. Just for the health of the mothers. It's not good for them to get pregnant back to back. I guess they need a couple weeks to recover. If I'm growing to weaned size or later I'm just going to separate the male babies and place them with the father while they grow larger. Anyhow that's how I plan to do it, but I'm also new to this so if anyone sees any hiccups in my system please let me know. I'm open to all criticism.

I do actually have two questions myself. If just breeding for food purposes is it still necessary to give the mother the two weeks off? And are they're any vitamins that I should give the mice to increase the health of my snakes. Or is they're any food for the mice I should stay away from to prevent illness in my snakes.
Link

Oh I guess I rambled and didn't really answer your question. The way I figured it out is this. Rats have a litter of 6-16. If read that 10-15 is average. I need 28 food items a month. Rats can produce about once a month with a 22 day pregnancy and time off. So with a litter of 15 a month I'll need 2-3 females to produce enough food. However I like easing in to things so I'm going to start with one female and supplement my food costs. Then as I get comfortable with what I'm doing I'll add a second and if I need a third I'll go that route. I figure as long as I'm saving money with one. It's only helping and not hurting and if I have to bail on the project I only have a couple rats to care for. On the otherhand you've got the advantage on me with that aspect. If your breeding mice your boa can eat breeders now. And i'd imagin it actually won't be long before it'll be able to handle medium to large rats. Another thing you may want to consider if youre going to breed your food. I'm not sure what size and quantity monitors eat but for the boa. Rats should be a better food source for them. They have a higher protein and lower fat content than mice making them a healthier food. Especially if your only feeding once a week. Just as a comparison. I'm feeding 7pm ball pythons the same food you're feeding a boa twice as often. And they're healthy. Not too fat not too skinny, but here in a month I'm going to have to switch to pups. Which is about the same size, but better quality and by the time they're 1 year I'm guessing they'll be on baby weaned rats.

PS please don't think I'm harping on you about how you feed. That's your business. Just throwing out some insight maybe you haven't read before.

Rats should be kept in large family groups, they're pack animals after all. As for the mice and whether giving them a rest in between breedings is necessary, unfortunately, that is a "personal preference." If you have the mindset that the animals are only bred for food and are going to die anyway, then no, a break is not necessary. You can just feed off the ones whose production starts to decline and replace them with new mice.

On the other hand, if you think like myself and believe that just because an animal is being bred for food doesn't mean they have to be mistreated, you would give them a break. Not because it's necessary but because being pregnant, giving birth, and nursing young (especially large litters) is extremely taxing on the body and incredibly stressful in general. I guess it depends on how you value the lives of the animals in your care.

As for my boa's feeding regimen, that's interesting. I learned about boas years ago and was taught to believe they should be fed bi-weekly. The boa I acquired just recently is a four year old, four foot animal. They were feeding it a rat a month or two to purposefully slow its growth. Of course, that's horrible. I've been feeding her F/T medium rats on a random schedule, two to four times per month. Now, getting into monitors, I'm rethinking how I care for my boa. Wondering if I should offer higher heat (as one forum member does for his snakes) and feed more often. What would you suggest?

As for feeding mice vs. rats, I'm breeding mice because I have a strong attachment to rats. I've been caring for them for over a decade and have even trained them to do tricks. To me, they are so much more than the disposable pet people think they are. They're incredibly intelligent and much more personable than mice. I guess it's like how some people can eat a cow but not a horse. I can feed F/T, but I don't think I could put a rat into a CO2 chamber. I already have trouble thinking about doing it with the damn mice.

I personally wouldn't raise the heat to increase metabolism. I'd just want to keep the animal healthy. Not that once every two weeks is unhealthy. It's true that they go months without food before eating in the wild, but I don't believe that's ideal. Ive heard of temp ranges for BPs from 75-85 all the way up to 85-95. Higher heat will increase metabolism and you can feed more often to increase weight, but I dont like taking the chance of running temps that high. I keep my cages right in the lower middle with a hot spot around 88 and a low around 78,79. I'm not a boa or even bp expert by any stretch and didn't want to come off like I was trying to be one, but I have had several bp from child hood till now. And I remember when I was a kid and got my first bp the guy at the legacies told me they were very sturdy animals and only needed to be fed once a month. But through continuing research through out the years I've found that old information isn't always right. Obviously with breeding as a goal. I want my snake to gain weight steadily and safely and this is what I've found. I have snakes that are growing and at one meal a week they're gaining about 100g a month I've got one that has been feeding only every other week and he's only gaining 50 to 70g a month. And lastly I have an adult who was new to the collection and isn't eating very well. She goes for a meal about every three days and recently lost 100g. From my own research I would say at a minimum every other week of the appropriate sized meal is bare minimum for health. 1 appropriate meal a week I would say is what the doctor called for. You can power feed on five day schedules without getting a fat snake, but in my opinion that's borderline in the other direction. If you choose not to feed rats to your boa I think that would be perfectly fine. And again just my opinion if I was in that scenario I would go every week with an extremely large retired breeder mouse. But I wouldn't suggest higher end temps.

I know nothing about rats. So I was wondering if you could help me out. I don't prefer rats for pets, but I'm not an evil personal either. There is a soft spot in my heart for all furry animals. Gasing rats is not going to be an easy thing for me to do, but I'm assuming that the mentality that my snakes are going to eat rats wether it's me who kills them or a major rodent company will get me through. Anyhow I heard you mention that rats are pack animals. Would two or three females and a male be sufficient for a pack or if need be two males and 3 females? And with that in mind you said that removing the male isn't necessary which is more detrimental to the health of the animal removing the male(s) and leave one or two by themselves or back to back pregnancies for the female? I definitely want my breeders to have a long and healthy life they will be my pets for a long time. Unfortunately I'll have get myself into the mentality that baby rats are food and nothing more. Anyway I have the one female in a 55ga aquarium. The male I bought as food died last night. All the rats seemed healthy, but he was bought as food and I think may have been too you to be pulled from the mother and he didn't have a companion. I plan on going to purchase atleast another female rat for the female I have. Now here is my next question. These rats will only be 7weeks old (the male who died was only about 4). Obviously I don't want the rats to breed yet. Should I get the male now and put him in a separate holding tank or would I be better off getting a male after the females are of age and then introduce a male to them afterwards? Looking forward to your help.

Allow me to state that I am a total hippie and vegan by choice and my methods may differ greatly from that of others that post on this forum. What I find absolutely necessary to the health and well-being of my animals, others may view as unnecessary and a waste of time. I firmly believe that just because an animal is being raised for food doesn't mean they have to live a miserable existence, however short. That's just my opinion and I neither approve or disapprove of other peoples' methods. Below I'll answer your questions based on my beliefs and experiences.

Rat pack: In the wild, rats can live in large groups, of up to forty or more. For a small scale breeding project, depending on how many animals you need, you could have one male and alternate a group of females.

Say you have three females in one cage, and the male in another. You could rotate a female into the male's cage, allow her to get pregnant, then switch her out for another female. That way one rat is pregnant at a time and no one is ever alone. I equate a lone rat in a small space to a human in solitary confinement. The negative aspect of this is that you're feeding animals that are not producing, and thus are, as some would say, "eating for free." However, in such a small scale operation, with food as cheap as it is, I personally don't see a huge issue.

Rat breeding: Prime breeding age in rats is between four and twelve months. I would suggest getting yourself another female or two soon, then after they are four months old, get a male. I always quarantine my animals, so there is a solid two week period when they are isolated from any group to ensure that no illness or parasites are present. I interact with them often, though, to make up for it.

I hope that your breeding operation goes well.

Thank you. I actually haven't been interacting with my rat. Not out of a lack of caring. I guess out of ignorance. With snakes they need time to adjust and not feel stressed out. My female rat seems extremely scared and shy. So I've wanted to give her time to adjust to her new surroundings. Should I start handling her instead? If the information helps she's only been here for two nights and still will not take treats from my hand.

Well, again, it's a personal preferences but here are the pros and cons.

Pros:

- Benefits the rat, who thrives on interaction with others (depending upon whether or not happy rats are a priority),
- Rats that trust humans are less likely to bite in defense (I've found that rats are extremely easygoing and rarely bite if properly cared for),
- Nursing mothers may be more inclined to let you handle her babies (I never had an aggressive mother, even ones who were totally new to my colony),

Cons:

- If you're like me, you'll get attached to your feeders (BAD!),
- Takes extra time out of your day to play and interact with animals who are used solely for food.

If you decide to start handling her, don't push it. Rats are prey animals and will behave as such if a presumed predator is coming after them. You can just change her food and water, put your hand in her cage and let her investigate (rats are very curious), and throw in treats. Even if she doesn't eat them until you leave, she'll realize your presence = good things.

YeAh that's what I've been doing. She bit me today, but it was like a clamp down draw blood bite. It was more of a testing the water type deal. Every day I give her a yogurt treat when I get up and then again when I get home. She doesn't take it from my hand, but shell sniff a little bit then I place the treat on top of her hide then pet her and leave her alone. I've heard of people playing with them and teaching them tricks. I haven't even picked her up yet because if she isn't willing to eat from my hand yet I'd find it highly unlikely that I would should want to be picked up by a stranger. But no like I said the breeders are going to be pets so I want them to be friendly and have a happy life. Hopefully she'll warm up to me soon.

>>Questions:
>>
>>1) Are there any issues with the above system?
>>2) How many mice would you estimate I need to start? 1.4? Two groups of 1.4?
>>3) If I had more than one group, should I establish them at different times so that their breeding cycles are different?
>>4) How do you keep the gene pool diverse enough to maintain a healthy colony?
>>5) If the bin remains clean, resources are adequate, and there is no overcrowding, what is the likelihood that a male will kill off a litter?
>>
>>
>>Thank you so much!

I want to just throw this out there.....Feeding savannah monitors mice is ok, but impractical...3-5 ft lizards will eat many many mice daily if kept with correct heat. Been there, done that.

Feeding mice to a Boa is not going to work.(I am assuming you mean Boa constrictors...not candoia or something else) Boas need prey larger than mice. May I suggest that your boa would be eating medium rats and be a whole lot bigger if you were keeping it properly. Four feet at four years is okay if it is a small boa from a locale. If it is a general grocery store off the shelf BC it could be heading toward 6 or 7 feet. AND, trying to switch your now 4 yo to rats is going to be a trial when if you had put it on rat pups as a baby you would have it more on track. What are you gonna feed your boa if it lives to be 7 or 10 ft? You can not possibly feed enough mice to grow a boa to it's true size. You are part starving it. I have a less than two yr old BC that is eating a 2-3 week old rat pups each week. Or, she eats two mice. Try weighing your prey and you will likely find you are feeding less w mice than you think. If you choose not to feed rats maybe you shouldn't keep an animal that should be fed them. It is not fair to the boa. Why not keep something that will stay small enough to stay on mice?

I have kept rodents (mice and rats especially but also hamster varietys and gerbils) since the 70s(before myco halved life expectancys)....both are social and intelligent. Both can make wonderful pets and learn to come when you call, do tricks... Socially, breeding group wise, they are different. Mice do NOT tolerate swapping out girls and boys regularly. One male per group. Only one. Set up a group and leave it alone. Do not swap out bred girls or the boy. Each reintroduction is just adding an 'invader' to the groups and risking them killing the new guy. Rats are open minded and don't care unless you are adding a new one to a group with small babies with protective moms.

Also, I have found that it sounds all PC to 'rest' your moms but you will find that "in the wild" they only rest because of lack of resources...ie food. So if you are feeding properly they are geared to back to back breed. Given rest you may find they get fat and infertile faster too. Either way you are gonna get 4 to 6 litters from any given mom before she is not productive. What are you gonna do with your old breeders?

Personally a 55 gal tank is not useful for raising mice or rats. Other than using it as a holding tank it is either impractically big for mice (remember, only one boy) and rats suck in tanks unless air movement is carefully controlled. 55s are too deep for any sort of good airflow.

If it were me raising Ball Pythons(and it was a few years ago) I would start with rats and raise them on rats. BPs are boneheads and don't like to switch. Start with rat pinks and go from there. Your growth is even and you don't have the hiccup trying to teach an adolescent BP to eat rats or raise a gazillion mice and feed 6 per meal. Again, not practical. Pinky rat...same size as week or two old mice. Timewise it is more efficient too.

as to your questions....Setting up groups in a staggered time will just make it so you 'wear out' a group and can cover with the production of the other group. So in that sense it may be practical.

Gene pool diversity is only important if you are breeding for color. If you breed for health that is the key. Remember, all the hamsters in captivity started from 4 brought into the country.....anecdotally you get the point.

I only lose litters to groups that get sick. Never could I say...oh, the male did it. In fact I don't think I have ever had a male give me any sort of trouble. 99% of cannabalism is from one very pregnant mom eating a young litter. Either the mousy need for room or protein seems to cause it. and 99% is new moms in new groups. Once set up and going I let moms raise new young females so that they 'learn' to be good moms. Works for me.
-----
Sonya

1.1 Candoia Paulson
2.2 Western Hognose
1.2 Mexican Black King
1.3 Greenish Ratsnake
1.1 Yellow Ratsnake
3.1 Everglades Ratsnake
2.1 Honduran Milksnake
0.1 Mexican Milksnake
1.1 Black Pinesnake
1.2 Sumatran Shortailed Python
1.3 Boa constrictor
2.2 Childrens Python
1.0 Irian Jaya Python
0.0.2 Timor Monitor
2.2 Mossy Leaftail Gecko
1.1 African Helmeted olivacea
0.1 Savannah Cat F7
1.1 Sugar Glider
Numerous Dogs, Cats, Birds, Fish pets and fosters
Husband
2.1 teens plus…..
You get the picture.