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http://www.caymannewsservice.com/science-and-nature/2011/04/18/blues-reported-czech-zoo
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they realy need to do their homework... they have been breeding blue iguanas in europe for some time now.. i own one my self..

i read the same thing about delicatissima and fiji iguanas... that only one or two zoos in the world have ever breed them in captivity ever..

i got some news for them! the private breeders in europe have breed them a whole lot more than that!

how on earth did they get the blue iguanas? That's strange! I thought they were only bred on the island by biologists.

did you read my last post? they private breeders in Europe have had them since the 1970... and breed a whole lot more more than the zoos or biologist..

Here are pictures taken by somebody from the praque zoo.

These don't look like pure animals to me.

Regarding Jürgen's, I question his animal's being pure. I know we have all looked at lot's of photos online and some of us in person. This picture of Jürgen's male look an awful lot like a hybrid to me. The dark constant black on his sides is a cuban trait. The top picture is Jürgen's, the bottom two are wild cubans on Guantanamo Bay. I'm not saying Jürgen's isn't, yet these pictures side by side definately raise a lot of question in my mind, it's up to you on which way you side. I think this is good as if they are be claimed to be pure I see DNA testing in the future. Then Jürgen can have his tested finally. I would bet Jürgen's are not pure, yet time will only tell.

Jürgen's

wild Guantanamo Bay

wild Guantanamo Bay

juergen told me that some expert from the durell fundation (i think it was durell) looked at his animals and said that they look pure... i have cubans from that zoo in Prag.. those pics look like the cubans i have seen also..

but because there are figginsi, recordi, rileyi, pinguis,delicatissima,fiji igs and a few more rare species of iguanides in Europe, it would not surprise me that the lewisi are pure too... the Europeans are very fixed on breeding pure stuff and they dont like hybrids at all... i have only seen hybrids for sale once.
And juergens animals have breeding records from the first day they came to Europe directy from GC.

If juergen has records of them since they came from GC, then why doesn't GC have records? Maybe they were lost like JF said. But they studbook has records back to the 60's, yet no record of any being exported anywhere but the U.S. But saying they look pure doesn't mean they are, I don't care who said it. Hell the animals that went to GC from life fellowship looked pure also. They didn't find out they weren't until the did DNA testing.

I'm not trying to be a dic*, I just don't think juergens animal's are pure based on the photos I have seen. His male, if pure might be the darkest none blue one I have ever seen. Besides the top of his head and spines the animal doesn't appear to have any other blue. Do you not think it's kinda weird that his male has that much black on it's side? Do you not think the last picture of the cuban I posted looks a hell of a lot like juergens male minus the blue? Like I said, hopefully DNA testing will come of this and the truth will be out there!

i used to think like that too.. but the more i see pics of the wild ones not only lewisi but of all cyclura species.. i see that there is much more variation than i first thought..

GC is Brittish and i know that they have at least shipped them to the UK.. thats fore sure.. so no i do not think they only shipped to the USA.. as Tom C said.. they could collect WC and bring them in to the states without any paperwork back in the 1960-1970.. so why not europe when the islands belonged to a European country? they where not listed back then as they are today.

Your right, they all vary. Yet, show me a wild lewisi that has the amount of black that Jurgens does? I have looked and don't see anything with the solid black sides, it's just not a lewisi trait that I see or can find. Hopefully there will be DNA testing involved to settle everything. Until then it's just our opinion based on our knowledge. Which unless you have spent a lot of time in the field really doesn't mean crap, and I have never been to GC.

There just my observations

true true..

http://www.zootierliste.de/?klasse=3&ordnung=304&familie=30402&art=50904092

what about this one?

My male "looks" more pure than those in the photos, at least in my opinion, and I "know" he's not pure.

Is that Azul???

That Lewisi male picture you posted from Juergen is the Daddy of mine =D LOL

What a bunch of COMPLETE IGNORANTS! "These iguanas are at a zoo in Europe where they shouldnt be, they belong here, bla bla bla". And may I ask the same person WHO put Cyclura lewisi in danger in the first place other then humans who ocuppied the island that rigthfully belonged to them!? And who are this people for hating green iguanas at this level when themselfes werent supossed to live in Cayman islands at all in the first place. And Im EXTREMELLY sceptical that green iguanas are causing that sort of envoiromental damage, they occupy a different ecological niche then the native Cyclura, wild green iguanas live alongside a HUGE variety of diferent bird species, even sea birds in many locations and the damage they cause is completly irrelevant comparing to animals like cats. Oh but of corse those are furry and nobody wants to get rid of them dont they?! Green iguanas even live on small isolated islanets where they could teoricly denude them of all the vegetation, however that doesant happen at least to my knowlege. And the number of "precious" blue iguanas that were recolected for collections both before and after the proibition (even to Im not ok with breaking law as it gets us nowhere in our credibility) is TINY comparing with the number of them that were lost to so many other causes including run over by cars, loss of habitat and introduced predators. Yea but that nobody sees. And here in Europe as well as in the states people are desesperatly trying to build a future for these magnifycent animals for future generations to enjoy and these people who so far have probably done NOTHING for iguana conservation, acusse us of "stealing" natural heritage. Whitout further undue, francly they make me sick....
Back to our litle world, hey Extremosaurus how is it going? Been absent from the forum, many things going on but this made me so mad I just had to show up

hey thanks.. nice to see that you are back... yup i agree.. they just think they know it all.. and are the gods of conservation.. sure its good with all kinds of conservation project for rare species but its funny how most of the people involved in the protection of species get rich doing it! this leads me to believe that they have an agenda.. if they did not, they would not mind others keeping and breeding them!

Nice rant. I think I followed it. I would like to hear any information backing your opinion. Have you been to GC and seen what the green igs are doing to the habitat, or the effort to save the lewisi? Just because Green Igs are there doesnt make it right as they are an invasive species like in so many other places.
All GC wants to know is, are the Prague animals pure or not and where did they come from. Is it a Blood line that could add diversity to the breeding project? Are they pure animals that got missed when they were trying to figure out how many are left and who has them. Maybe, just maybe, they are illegal and property of GC. If they are not what are you worried about. All they want is some information and you are getting all bent outta shape for them asking. There are some documented animals that have gone missing.
Just 'cuz they look pure doesnt make it so.

jf

he does make a few good points.. they are a bit hypocritical focusing on some issues and ignoring a lot caused by humans and much more harmfull than a a bunch of green iguanas..
dont you think so?

i still think its more about economics than anything else.. green iguanas are the cheapest problem... while industries do what they want for example..

they are grandiose swipes and complex problems. Damn the humans!
great that is really helpful. Lets stay on topic its about C lewisi and trying to protect and save them. The concern is from people trying to so just that. You want to get into effects of humans, big business and who should historically live on the island?
Asking for information that can help this precise cause is not that big a deal as the poster is making it. The "how dare they question European keepers" is a bit defensive and an over reaction.

jf

thats a bit dramatic LOL no one said that.. but why do they think that if they dont know about it no one else have done it? like they know it all.. its the tone of a bully

thats the tone I took from the post. not yours though. BIRP has gone through great pains to account for all the pure lewisi. Asking for info and its origins is such a big deal? Do you know if its even a real Lewisi? Does the zoo? some zoos here thought they had them and didn't. If the Prague Zoo igs are not legit or are and got there by what means, dont you think that could be valuable info for its conservation?
they're are just asking some questions?

by all means.. but i have heard this things before.. like with the delicatissima or fiji iguanas.. a lot of the zoos and organisations think they are the only ones to do what they do.. it like the world has passed them by while they had a hybris trip.. and they are now wondering why? and cant get the fact that they dont have monopoly on it.. just because they do it in pupblic for all to see and know, doesnt mean every one does.. a lot of people with rare stuff are keep to them selfs.. like the figginsis in the USA ... sure there are a bunch of them in the US but you do not hear much about them do you?

Although i have to say that i realy love the blue iguana project!
just not the way they sometimes handle things like this in the media... it scares people that may have iguanas to share about it.. some may not be 100% sure of their animals origin and thus will only make it even more hush hush...

Extremo but it just the way Burton came off in that article. It alomost sounded like what extremo was explaining. Sure I agree 100% that if they are lost animals or something they could help the blues but man to come off like he did I think it does scare private parties into keeping to themselves. Those animals could be alive for many years and never even apart of the program.

Extremo are you sure Juergen's are pure? Seesm like last I talked with him he told me they were high percentage hybrids but I could be wrong-alot gets lost in translation. He was contacting me and some other people I know to try to get high percentage hybrids so add to his group so maybe I was just under the impression his were hybrids.

Thanks
Tom Greb

Hi Tom, hope you are well. I just dont see the issue, semantics, overly sensitive readers maybe? Heres the quote-

"Fred Burton, the director of the recovery programme, confirmed on Monday that contact has been made with the zoo in Prague and he is now awaiting a response from the local iguana specialist.
“We hope to find out who the Hungarian breeder is and where he got his stock from. If the zoo did due diligence and has a respectable association with that breeder, it should be possible to get to the bottom of this,” he revealed."

I know a bit more from Fred's side so maybe I am biased or thick headed.'wouldnt be the 1st time

jf.

hard headed people I have met in this hobby or profession! I guess maybe reading it again it is just the way I first conceived what he wrote(about "getting to the bottom of this" usually denotes a negative thought). Anyway That would be great if they do come up with another bloodline. The thing is usally a breeder like that will want to get something to give something and I don't know how the blue program feels about that. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out if we ever hear the truth. It seems like the species is pretty diverse as far as bloodline(or at least until the idiots did that massacre awhile ago). Do they ever collect babies from the wild pop to add to the bloodline? I guess if I purchased the little blue book I might know. LOL.

Thanks again Joel for your hard headed opinion! LOL
Tom

he told me they are pure.. nothing in the CITES papers state anything else than CYCLURA LEWISI.. also it looks very different from the best hybrids i have seen in the USA (in real life i might add)

this is the only good photo i have taken so far... its very hard to capture how they truly look as you all know..

Tom do you live in Europe?

No not in Europe Extremo. But I am responsible for helping Juergen get some of the animals he has. I have also sent him seeds of several types so he could try growing a more natural diet for his animals. Of course I think maybe he has forgotten a lot of that. LOL. I set him up for his contacts for his Sauromalus varius and hispidus. Also I think I may have helped him out when he was wanting to get some lewisi hybrids but I am not sure how that worked out. I have been in contact with Juergen for a long time. He was responsible for finding me Ctenosaura oedirhina that I imported from a friend of his in Germany. Just a little history I have with Juergen. He is a very knowledgeable breeder. We(actually a close friend of mine) tried to import figi iguanas from him but were turned down by USFW.

Tom

oh thats interesting with them seeds and all.. =) send me some too LOL.. i cant place your name.. sounds familure??? do you have an website?
Cool to know your history with him.. he told me about a friend in the US when i was looking for some ctenos...must have been you then =)

Yup juergen really knows his stuff..

Beautiful!!!

thanks =)

My friend Tom ask me if I had read the threads lately from this site so I have to give my two cents worth. I am a member of The IRCA and the TSA and I donate and back conservation efforts of both groups.I however also breed rare lizards and tortoises. I have always found it amazing how some of these conservation groups have issues with the private sectors breeding and selling some of the animals that they are trying to protect.I can tell you that I have visited the GC and they are breeding the iguanas in large numbers and are running out of places to release them.I wonder why they are even worried about where the European zoo aquired their iguanas? Or why they want to even get possible other bloodline when they are running out of places to release them.
The Europeans are way ahead you us in the Captive breeding of alot of species and have been for along time.There are many rare animals that are 40 years old in private collection long before CITES began.
I would like to comment that while I visited the breeding facility of the blues my wife and I saw many other blues that were not at all colorful, more grey and brown.So just because an animal is blue doesn't make it a pure animal. I have a nice male hybrid that is an awesome animal.
It will be interesting in how this all comes out with the zoo.Hopefully the animals were aquired through a legal source.
I want to say thanks to you European Breeders, with out you many of us would have never been able to aquire Captive Bred animals that are not available in the U.S.
Yeah.Jurgen is a excellant breeder and a friend.I am always please to hear about the things he has accomplished with his animals.

Great post! could not have said it better my self! =D

I would like to add that a european zoo or a private breeder NEVER would go public with CITES I animals if they did not have legal animals with CITES PERMITS.... EU is not the USA.. its ILLEGAL to own any CITES LISTED specimens without papers..

NO ZOO or Private breeder would ever take that risk and go public if they did not have paperwork!

Its inocent untill proven guilty not the other way around.. and to even speculate guilt in public WITHOUT PROF! CAN BE A CRIME in it self!

so if it turnes out that the zoo has legal animals.. they can sue the crap out of anyone that gave them BAD PR..

this is exactly what I mean. We can lear a lot from private breeders.

The Prague Zoo is not the only zoo in europe that got lewisi from this person in hungary, who is not the breeder of them!
Another zoo in Czech got a pair Zoopark Zajezd.
Nice animals, that look really pure.

regards
Peter

if this does not look pure i dont know anything anymore...

http://www.zootierliste.de/?klasse=3&ordnung=304&familie=30402&art=50904092