Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since the forum is rather dead, I thought that I would post a few photos. These are three wild caught Musquiz Canyon animals. The Second male and the female were collected just a few feet apart (although a couple a years apart). They bred for the first time this year and she should be laying in a couple of weeks (she was actually going into her pre-egglaying shed when I took the photo).

Male, South end of the canyon

Male, North end of the canyon

Female, North end of the canyon

Thanks for looking.
Bryan

Nice snakes. I noticed you say north end and south end. Do most breeders of this locality keep the north and south ends as separate localities? Or is it more a case of availability, if you happen to have animals from close together you keep them separate from the others but if you just have a male from one end and a female from the other it's ok to breed them together and they will still be considered of the same locale? Of course I know it's "ok" in the sense that they would all be Musquiz but would breeding two specimens from opposite ends be considered significantly less desirable as a locality pair? Have you noticed any differences between the north and south ends such as one being more likely to produce heavy speckling or wider red, etc.?
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron,

I do not know of anyone else breeding this particular locality, so I can only speak for myself. If at all possible, I breed snakes together that were collected as close together as possible. I am VERY anal about this. If I did not have the exact cut male available, I would have bred her to the south canyon snake. I would have made this clear to anyone that would have purchased these offspring. Most people would not care, but I would not have kept any of the offspring for my own stock.

On a related note, I will probably produce three clutches of Black Gaps this year. Two will be from exact cut matched, wild caught snakes, one will be from a captive born snake (Dan Johnson produced, Father was collected by Norm south of the Adam's Ranch cuts just as the road drops off into the long straight away and the Mother was found by Dan at the Limestone cuts.) bred to a wild caught male (Ranger station cuts). While the offspring from this clutch will probably be nicer looking animals than the exact cut matched snakes, they are much less desirable to me because of the distance between where the animals were collected.

Finally, back to the morphology question concerning the Musquiz snakes. I do not believe that there is a large enough sample size to really see any trend in morphology. I do think that the animals from Musquiz tend to look more like Alpine animals than the other localities from the Davis (Limpia, Observatory, Boy Scout Road). That is just my 2 cents. I would love to hear other opinions.

Bryan

Based on the few available photos, the small sample size seems to indicate that the variability of the Musquiz alterna may be higher, but I may chalk that up to a larger collecting area in Musquiz than that of some of the others in the Davis that you mentioned. Based on the available photos, your animals in particular, look to more closely resemble the "atypical" patterns and coloration present in the other populations in the Davis, rather than Alpine locales. My two cents.

These 3 are from within 1-1/4 miles of each other on Boy Scout.

Good points John. I think that we need to see more from this locality. I am certainly interested in the peripheral populations of the Davis. I would love to see some animals from some of the limestone formations that connect to the Davis. I think that you could get some really cool variation there. That is one of my goals this summer. I think that I may find only dust if it does not start raining soon.

Good luck with the search, I hope you are successful, I'll be interested in seeing those.
I agree with your thoughts on the limestone transition zone, and attribute the greater variability of the Boy Scout animals outside the canyon section of the road to this feature. The three snakes in my previous post come from an area like you described. For the foreseeable future, I will be spending a good amount of time looking on a ranch near Shafter that has Cibolo Creek running through a transition zone of limestone and volcanic rock.

Another from that same section of road.

jkraft - outstanding looking animal. Is that from Shafter or Musquiz? Lance and I have always considered shafter since Mike Forstner used to talk about an animal taken their that was like no other.

Good Luck,

StevenX

Steven,

That's another BSR. I'm hoping to find some animals like the Shafter on the alterna gallery. The only other I've seen, is a light phase blairs from a limestone area.

John

Good luck with that John. Let me know how that goes. I have spent some time on Cibilo Creek, but with no luck. I may go back there this year, just depends on the weather.

Thanks, Brian. This ranch has lots of potential, hopefully it'll produce. The only specimen I know of is a blairs female from where the road crosses over the creek, heading up to the cemetery. A friend caught her on the 4th of July 2006. So, the hard part is done, "just" need to find the male.

Awesome pictures Bryan! I really like the male from the north end. That pairing should make some outstanding babies! Keep us posted for sure.

Kyle

Outstanding animals!

Wish we could have given you our male to use for a year before he passes on...

Lance and I may need to hit that area again soon.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

Steven,

The stub tailed male (South Cut) was supposed to be a female when Scotty got him. If he were a she, then I would have loved to use your male. It is too much of a stretch for me to feel right about breeding your male to my North cut female (about 7 miles apart as the crow flies). The pair we did breed together is a perfect match. I have been actively seeking out a female for your snake to breed, as I hate to see him die without passing his genes on the the captive population, especially with so few of this locality out there. Don't give up on him. Alterna can live a long time and I have not seen any evidence of males becoming less fertile as they age.

Bryan

Beautiful animals Brian. I agree the male north end is killer. Can't wait to see pics of the babies.

Chris

I would not expect him to last for another season, he is losing weight and just looks sad, He will only eat every now and again and to be honest I expect to find him passed on each time I check on him.
-----
___________________________
Herp Conservation Unlimited

If people really learn from their mistakes, I should be like the smartest guy in the world

I hate to hear that Lance. I hope that he continues to hold on. I will continue to look for a female from there to match up with our other male. If I get one, I will let you know. Maybe yours will still be around.

n/p