Reptile & Amphibian Forums

http://www.nps.gov/cave/planyourvisit/upload/2007_CAVE_herps.pdf

Says they found one in their 2003-2004 survey. I thought there has been only one alterna found in NM "officially;" is this the one?
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

>>http://www.nps.gov/cave/planyourvisit/upload/2007_CAVE_herps.pdf
>>
>>Says they found one in their 2003-2004 survey. I thought there has been only one alterna found in NM "officially;" is this the one?
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>>Chris McMartin
>>www.mcmartinville.com
>>I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

I think this should help.

http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/conservation/documents/G_Banded_King_Snake_06.pdf
RECOVERY AND CONSERVATION OF THE GRAY-BANDED KINGSNAKE

>>I think this should help.

Indeed; thanks!
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Chris McMartin
www.mcmartinville.com
I'm Not a Herpetologist, but I Play One on the Internet

More recent ones, too.

http://www.sierraherps.com/gallery/alterna/photo-gallery-alterna/new-mexico/

Bob are some of those from outside the park?
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Yes

Interesting, thanks.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Re:
http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/conservation/documents/G_Banded_King_Snake_06.pdf
RECOVERY AND CONSERVATION OF THE GRAY-BANDED KINGSNAKE

Interesting link. I wonder, what are NM alterna "recovering" from, lol?

On a more serious note, I was puzzled by this statement:

"Unregulated take of gray-banded kingsnakes by commercial and private collectors
is the most significant threat to the species in New Mexico. Specimens collected from
New Mexico are highly desirable in the pet trade."

This would seem to indicate that prior to NM protecting alterna, overcollecting was a problem. Yet the general attitude in the hobby seems to be that possessing, selling, trading, etc. NM alterna is sure to bring on the scrutiny of law enforcment specifically because few, if any, were ever collected prior to their take being banned in that state.

So which is it? Was overcollecting NM alterna a problem prior to their take being banned? Or, is it a defacto admission of guilt to have NM alterna, due to the fact that no specimens were collected prior to their take being banned? It can't be both.

For the record I don't really even desire NM alterna. There are plenty of other localities to choose from, but I was just curious about the apparent contradiction presented.

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www.hcu-tx.org/

Contradiction? In herp regulations? Say it isn't so!
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Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Boas, Pythons, Colubrids, Tortoises and Turtles

Here's another one for more context....

http://sierraherps.com/pdf/Hakkila_1994.pdf
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.

Thanks Joe, a wealth of information in that link. After reading it I would say that the statement about 'overcollecting posing the biggest threat to alterna in NM' was most likely an extrapolation. Apparently it was not that overcollecting had taken place in NM, it was that if as many collecters as were hunting Langtry at that time were to descend upon NM, then NM's alterna could be at risk.

Given that the number of collecter's vehicles in Langtry was at that time described as quite high, I can see how one might want to be cautious with regard to NM's alterna.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Funny thing though - when the Langtry collector numbers were brought up by NMG&F, Toby basically told them that there were large numbers at Langtry for a reason - that it was an easy place to hunt . . . and that if numbers of those collectors showed up in NM, most would go home in a few days empty-handed and tell their friends that collecting in NM sucked and it would be "end of problem" LOL

(just a note, my brother could care less about alterna, too - so its not like he had a dog in that hunt)

NM basically looked at the fact that alterna are popular, that the trade is locality-driven, and the "fringe" populations like the Huecos are in high demand, and then wrote that statement.

Any time you list something as T&E, you have to list "threats" (even possible ones). This is a peripheral species in NM that in reality, given the remoteness and inaccessibility of its habitat, is not "threatened" in any real, measureable way - even if every single one found were collected, the vastness of its habitat (even in a peripheral area like NM) assures its survival. Habitat destruction is the only real threat to species. My brother worked for NMG&F when they listed alterna, and told them so . . . but minds had already been made up to list it.

That said, there are some peripheral species with specialized, sensitive habitats (like TX's Speckled Racer, found basically in two tiny preserves in Cameron Co) that ought to be protected . . . but that case is nothing like a super-secretive rock crevice dweller in Chihuahuan Desert Mountains.

That was very well said Troy. I agree 100%. The same is true with the lep lep in NM, and it is not nearly as hard to find.

No, there are two "official" NM alterna . . . the "DOR" (had been nicked but would have survived had it not been pickled) found by G. Swinford from the 90s and the one found by a survey crew in the park in 04 or so (I personally know the guy that found that one). That one was photographed and released.

I hadn't seen the 2nd painter photo that Bob has on Sierraherps.com . . .

Note also, word is that the photo on the cover of the "alterna rush" CD is a NM snake . . . but that's just what I've heard

Thanks for the info Troy. I agree, you can't overcollect alterna anywhere they occur just by collecting off the road/right of way.

There are many areas in Texas where the alterna are just as desirable and just as hard to find as they are in NM and hardly anybody hunts those areas.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

they aren't that hard to find in NM. There were many folks that supposedly could not find them, even in the right spot, but it turns out they are not any harder to find in NM.
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LOCALITY: Traceable lineage to WC snakes from the same locality.
I don't care how far apart they are (within reason) as long as the localities are stated, buyers can make up their own minds.

NON-LOCAL or GENERIC: Lineage is not traceable to WC
Generics need love too.