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Here is Louie, a 6 year old CB male EBT, attempting to mate with Sonny, a very old male EBT. Louie has consistently ignored the 3 female adult EBTs in the habitat, as well as the other adult male EBT. He steadfastly pursues Sonny, much to Sonny's consternation. My outdoor habitat is quite large, nearly 200 square feet, with plenty of visual barriers (shrubs, logs, etc). When Louie is pursuing Sonny and I pull them apart, place them at opposite ends of enclosure, Louie will literally RUN the length of the enclosure until he finds Sonny again, and attempt mating vigorously. Last year I chalked it up to youthful exuberance, but now I am convinced Louie is a monogamous homosexual box turtle. I have been breeding box turtles for over a decade in this habitat and never seen anything like this. Of course homosexuality is a natural phenomenon and has been reported in most animal species, however, it is kind of cool to see it so well defined in this EBT of mine.

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Sloop John B
MORELIA TROPHY CLUB
moreliapython.googlepages.com/

Be careful not to confuse mounting with mating.

I have males who engage in this kind of behavior in their efforts to establish dominance. If I have to keep them physically separated for a few days, they redirect their attention to the females.

gonna have to disagree with you on this. Sonny (the "submissive male" copulates freely with the females, and readily engages in combat with the other adult male. Both males copulate with each adult female. Louie has never shown interest with any of the females, nor has he shown any interest in the other male. He did this last year as well, when he became big enough to mate. If it were a dominance issue, he would be mounting the females...and he flat out doesn't.
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Sloop John B
MORELIA TROPHY CLUB
moreliapython.googlepages.com/

Your methodology is lacking, leaving this 'clearly defined' behavior poorly defined.

You have a young male that consistently mounts only one other male.

First of all, have you ever left Louie alone for any length of time with ONLY the females? Until you do, then you really have no way of knowing whether your turtle is not interested in female companionship.

Secondly, were you aware that males can take significantly longer to reach breeding age/sexual maturity age than do females? Before they reach that age, they frequently spar with other males before graduating to actual mating with females.

Thirdly, did you realize that not every male turtle views every other male turtle as competition? While males WILL challenge the competition, that simple fact easily explains why Louie has singled out Sonny.

Lastly, if your younger male isn't actually attempting copulation (or if you prefer, penetration...what you show in the photo is not the final stage of the courtship and mating ritual/process, BTW), then this is indeed simply an attempt to establish dominance.

I disagree...there is a huge difference between males sparring/fighting for dominance and copulation attempts. I have watched these EBTs in our outdoor habitat (right below my kitchen window, allowing frequent, easy observations) for over a decade, and I have witnessed well over a hundred copulations as well as sparring behavior, and this is different. Louie gets his hind legs clasped under Sonny, and attempts to copulate. This is very different from the bumping, frontal biting, ramming response of the males seen when sparring. Yes, males will sometimes climb on top of one another for dominance, but NOT to the exclusion of females. Louie's copulation attempts with Sonny are to the exclusion of the females. He has done it now for two years in a row, consistently.
Finally...I never said the photo was copulation/penetration...I said it was a mating attempt, which it clearly is. "Mating attempt" includes intentional pursuit, biting along the sides of the shell, mounting, clasping legs underneath the carapace, and attempts at copulation. I don't know what you mean by "clearly defined" but what I have is a naturalistic environment with consistently observed behaviors (which has empirical validity). I think taking the male out (Sonny) and leaving Louie in with only the females would actually provide less empirical validity (for the conclusion of his behavior as homosexual).
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Sloop John B
MORELIA TROPHY CLUB
moreliapython.googlepages.com/

---I don't know what you mean by "clearly defined" but what I have is a naturalistic environment with consistently observed behaviors (which has empirical validity). I think taking the male out (Sonny) and leaving Louie in with only the females would actually provide less empirical validity (for the conclusion of his behavior as homosexual).---

I was quoting your original post when I used the term "clearly defined". You have a controlled environment: no matter how large the pen (and your is not particularly spacious at all, considering the average home range of the species), your turtles are being kept in artificially prolonged and close contact.

Based on what you have shared, your observations have little if any empirical validity, because you have not attempted to provide any 'control' scenarios.

Leaving Louie alone with the females would be an excellent way of testing the validity of your theory: if he were to mate with any of the females, we would know that he was in fact not homosexual.

Removing Sonny from the enclosure could inform your assessment of 'monogamy', should Louie decide to attempt (or not) the same behavior with the other adult male.

In short, you haven't actually tested your theory, which renders your conclusion invalid, at least until actually proven by testing.

Many species use mating/mounting behavior on members of the same sex to establish dominance.

"Empirical" includes naturalistic observation, not just experimental manipulation. I believe just the opposite of what you have written, and that is, removing the other male(s) actually make a much less natural environment for determining sexual preference in this EBT. Alternative sexual behavior among many animal species can be induced by restricting access to one sex or the other, so the experiment you suggest wouldn't prove or disprove anything, in fact, would "stack the deck" for getting heterosexual behavior.

Of course my habitat doesn't mimic the natural range of EBTs...in fact, no habitat less than several square miles of wilderness areas does. But I have witnessed hundreds of pursuit, combat, mating attempts, copulation, nesting, egg deposition, hatching over the past decade with a number of different EBTs and the example I presented here does represent an aberrancy from everything else I have observed.

I agree that my habitat might induce some differences that would not be observed in a wilderness area, so we can't generalize to a wilderness population of EBTs, however, I'll call it for what it is...preferential homosexual behavior in an EBT in my outdoor habitat.
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Sloop John B
MORELIA TROPHY CLUB
moreliapython.googlepages.com/

terrapene,
Nobody doubts that what you are observing in your male boxie, is what would appear to be a male boxie actually mounting another male boxie for sexual purposes. Therefore, the immediate and obvious conclusion would be that there is some type of un-natural behavior taking place..such as homosexuality. However, as you pointed out in your post, you stated that you have observed many different types of behavior patterns, apparently in several different individual turts, over the course of say maybe a decade. No doubt then, you must agree that each individual turt will perform various daily activities, in it's very own unique, and usually subtly different, manner. That is to say that, no two turtles will behave exactly the same way. In as much as most turtle activities and behaviors can be described into neat little packages and published into books for us to learn from, when we observe something "different" from what we have come to expect, then we automatically ascribe some new idea to that very unique behavior pattern. Case in point. Louie is clearly demonstrating his very own unique method of telling Sonny that he intends to be Mr. Alpha. This behavior pattern will probably persist until all competion (Sonny and every other male) is removed from his presence. Then Louie will have time, and it may take some time, for him to concentrate on refining his "Romeo" assets. So relax, I bet that you have a young, very healthy male boxie, that will someday, procreate beyond your wildest (at this point) dreams. Now, for the sake of Sonny (and this topic has not been addressed thus far in this thread), consider some way to separate them, so as not to further stress Sonny. This could ultimately affect Sonny's health and well being and may save you a trip to the vet. Depending on the size of your enclosure, your response, as Sonny's keeper, to this immediate and obviouse threat, could cost Sonny his very life.
-Spence

LOL. Thanks for the laugh...

Great thread...never thought I would read a disagreement over whether a turtle was gay. Made me forget all about the stock market for 3 and a half minutes....thanks!

Spence, I find your response a bit paternalistic...you ask me to "relax"...well, I'm relaxed and don't recall ever posting that I was worried about this. I was posting it as an interesting observation that I thought others with EBTs might appreciate. You describe the behavior as "un-natural". I believe it is totally natural and if you do a quick search at an academic library looking through some journal articles you'll see homosexual behavior has been observed in many animals, from insects to primates. As a matter of fact, it is completely natural from just about any biological perspective. And telling me I better do something quick or Sonny's life is in danger...that is pretty absurd to put it bluntly. 200 square feet of thickly planted outdoor habitat with plenty of visual barriers (logs, bushes, etc) is enough space to house 5 adult EBTs.
To summarize: For two years in a row this young male turtle has exhibited exclusive, preferential attempts to copulate with another adult male EBT in a relatively large outdoor habitat. Make what you want of it.
ps...Relic...glad we can provide some comic relief!
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Sloop John B
MORELIA TROPHY CLUB
moreliapython.googlepages.com/

terrapene,
Sorry for coming across as "paternalisic", let me say I think that your description of your 200 sq ft outdoor habitat sounds really adequate for 5 and I'm sure that ten successful years reflects excellent husbandry.
I was not trying to "tell you to do something quick" for Sonny. I did, however, suggest that you "consider" and I went on to lay out perfectly reasonable concerns about Sonny's stress level and it's consequences, remember, Sonny can not escape his situation as he normally would in the wild. Any seasoned and responsible boxie keeper will concur with me on those statements.
Also, aside from Sonny's well being, I was thinking of you, suggesting that it might save you some headache and/or heart ache, at some point in the future.
Lastly, I have one book of reference that easily supercedes all of the books of the academic libraries, I therefore respectfully decline any further discourse on Louie's behavior. As you said: "make of it what you will".
-Spence

I have a young male eastern box turtle that I raised from a hatchling. About the time he was reaching sexual maturity and his colors were beginning to show, he only directed mounting and copulating behavior towards the males. He did this for three years. Now, two years after that, he breeds only with the females and spars in typical fashion with the males. I've seen this to a much lesser extent with gulf coast, florida, and desert box turtles...all with young males.

This is a pretty normal thing with young males of a variety of animals. Even in humans...most of us tend to exhibit homoerotic-type behaviors when puberty hits before we go after the opposite gender. But, it's impossible to equate homosexual behaviors in animals to homosexuality in humans. The least of the reasons...nobody influences gender roles with animals. They have to figure it out for themselves. I have a young male Hermann's tortoise that mounts the wrong end! I call him Billy (if you get that, congratulations on having a dark sense of humor).

I have a strong feeling that your male will change his behavior as he ages. Also, the turtle on the top looks like an Eastern, but the turtle on the bottom looks like a Florida. I've heard stories of different subspecies acting "confused" when it comes to breeding in mixed subspecies environments.

Either way, it's an interesting natural history note, even if the title of your post is a bit misleading and anthropomorphic.

I'm open minded, but if either of my turtles start cross-dressing, I'm drawing the line.

Wow, haven't visited this forum for a few weeks and things sure have gone down hill, now we are debating weather prison rape defines sexual orientation
Spence makes some good points about the stress on Sonny and his inaccessibility (no matter the size of the enclosure) to flee and escape, yet John it comes across that your defense is that Sunny "enjoys it", that the two turtles in love are fighting for "gay turtle rights", and just want to be acknowledged, respected and treated as equals in the box turtle hobby community.
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Jeff Benfer
gartersnakemorph.com