Reptile & Amphibian Forums

not much of a clutch, but a nice one or two considering theyre out of wildcaughts.

Dude, they're all nice...even the rock is pretty.

Robert

The top one is going to be a screamer I bet. I would keep it for sure.
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not sure how the colors will change the father is very light and female is medium. Torn between which of those first two to keep.

Nice generics.

I made a website dedicated to them. F1snakes.com
Link

Great looking snakes and I like the website. Really like seeing the background info on your locality snakes.

Chris

I don't think we can accept that these snakes are not generic until your collecting and family tree data has been reviewed and you have been placed on the recommended breeder page. That's the convention, right?

Just because a particular person is not on the recommended breeders list does not necessarily mean that their alterna are "generic". You sound a bit jaded.

These forums are suppose to be learning tools for alterna enthusiasts, so there is no room for condescending remarks.

I completely agree with you. Inclusion on the list does not mean that other people don't produce valid localities. However, that has not been my experience. It seems that a lot of people are viewed as being dishonest simply because they are not on the recommended breeders list. If that is not the view held by most members of the alterna community, please let me know because it is certainly the impression I get from reading a lot of posts. Not trying to be negative here, just pointing out what the prevailing opinion is on this forum. Perhaps this would be a good time to poll people on their feelings regarding this subject?

Can localities be produced and bloodlines accepted by everyone if the breeder is NOT included on the recommended breeders list?

I think the main thing is that you just have the information going back to the collecter of the wild caught snakes.

My experiance is that there are some people who will not buy alterna from anyone unless they have actually hunted with that person or at least seen them on the road for several years.

Most die hard hunters already have a group of friends they will only buy from and would only use the list in extreme circumstances like to pair up an animal they have not been able to after years of trying to in the field. The list is not the be all end all, IMHO, but it is a very good tool for many people.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly. The list is not all-inclusive. Provided the breeder is open with his/her information regarding bloodlines and the buyer is happy with that, the animals can be considered as being locality snakes.

I agree that anyone can call their snakes whatever they want by whatever criteria they want as long as they are honest about everything.

I don't think one should expect silence when posting any snake of questionable or incomplete lineage and calling it locality.

Whether the list existed or not if someone called a snake locality without having full lineage there would still be many who question it. Any person into locality who sees a good looking snake posted as a locality is naturally going to want the details, out of simple curiosity if nothing else. Eliminating or discounting the list isn't going to erase any questions.

The questions on the list are the exact same questions many have been asking since the beginning of locality breeding. The list didn't create the questions it just reflected the questions that were already there.
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Very well said. And, if you are caught once or twice or thrice, you will be questioned every time after that. Persons that are caught might be called a liar and a cheat. We know that no one trusts liars and cheats. So, from that point on they will be scrutinized very closely. Again, they have no one to blame but themselves. Unfortunately the ones that suffer are the ignorant buyers that may not have been educated about those that are liars and cheats. Then they get caught up in it because they truely believe they bought what they were told. Too bad for them. Sad thing about that is that then the liars and cheats get mad at the system and try to make it the system's fault, not theirs.

ECTimaeus

I agree 100%. What it all comes down to is personal responsibility. And developing a trustworthy reputation that is carried on and on. As for the 'system,' the ironic thing is that many of the most reputable of breeders aren't operating within the system and probably won't ever as it doen't provide them with any additional credibility than they already have.

Nice post, and I agree. Most people that cannot get on the recommended breeder list have probably been challenged a couple of times and were not able to adequately prove their case. It might be a case of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". There is no doubt that people have been caught and like a "credit rating" it takes time to get it back if you keep a clean record. If you do not keep a clean record you may never get a good rating. If you do not have a clean record, you probably have no one to blame but yourself. If you breed generics or highbreds, you will probably have a bigger hill to climb. IMHO

ECTimaeus

Wow, it's tough to see through the 'veiled' references here. I'd be really curious to know exactly how many people have tried to be listed and have not been able to 'prove' their case. Also, what type of 'proof' would be necessary or accepted. Seems the instructions on the alterna page are pretty clear...if you provide pictures and data you are in, right? Perhaps Joe can shed some light on this for us...How many people have submitted pedigrees and family trees and have not been accepted to the list? Not asking for names, just a number.

I'm glad you used the term 'highbred' - look it up - I'd like to modestly believe that that is exactly what I produce.

I'll make the point again that I've tried to make several times before. The fact that I or anyone produces hybrids and honestly represents them as such in no way casts doubt on the locality snakes I/we produce. It is tantamount to saying that anyone who produces generic snakes of any species cannot be trusted with their localities - or that someone who breeds locality alterna yet also produces generics cannot be trusted either as how can you be sure the snakes you are getting weren't confused with locality or generic or vice versa? What WOULD cast doubt on the person would be if they produced hybrids and CONCEALED the fact that they were hybrids. Of course then you could believe that they concealed the truth about their localities as well.

In all truthfulness, I was not speaking about anybody that breeds hybrids and say that is what they are. I am speaking more about the "albino" alternas that have been offered in the past that were from cross breedings. So, in this case I do not believe I was including you. If you took it so, please accept my apologies.

ECTimaeus

It makes me sick to my stomach, but that’s only my visceral reaction. I’m not sure you can give creating hybrids and creating generics or mis-matching localities equal billing in this way, Glenn. I think when someone hybridizes, they call into question a reluctance to draw the line in a much more exponential sense, meaning if you like to cross species you may be that much more likely to cross localities. At least, that is my perception, the perception of a non-hybridizer, lol. I don’t know whether that perception is shared by the majority of non-hybridizers; I could be marching to the beat of my own drummer. However, I completely agree that it shouldn’t automatically discredit someone as long as there aren’t other “issues” present.

Robert

You are more than welcome to feel this way. I guess you don't agree with mules either? Ever eaten a tangelo or a grapefruit? Did you get the same feeling in your stomach? What about intergeneric hybrids in nature, i.e. - marine and land iguanas?

Granted, equating hybridization with producing generics or mis-matching localities was a bit of a stretch in comparison, however it was part of a larger point of the fact that dishonesty is not something that could be unique to hybrid breeders, but pure race breeders as well.

"I think when someone hybridizes, they call into question a reluctance to draw the line in a much more exponential sense, meaning if you like to cross species you may be that much more likely to cross localities."

I believe that this is more of a personal bias rather than something that is based on empirical evidence. So what you are saying is that you have never produced a generic alterna? If you have then clearly you don't have the same ability to draw the line either, right? In my opinion it is quite a leap to make the assumption that you are making, but again you are entitled to your opinion. I also think it is quite an extrapolation for you to believe that there is necessarily some inherent 'shame' that hybridizers feel with regard to what they do. Were that to be the case, I think it would be much more common that they didn't admit to what they were doing, nor advertise the fact that they were doing it.

"I completely agree that it shouldn’t automatically discredit someone as long as there aren’t other “issues” present. "

What other types of 'issues' would there be short of catching someone in a lie or proving them wrong in some other way?

“I believe that this is more of a personal bias rather than something that is based on empirical evidence.”

Of course it is.

“So what you are saying is that you have never produced a generic alterna? If you have then clearly you don't have the same ability to draw the line either, right? In my opinion it is quite a leap to make the assumption that you are making, but again you are entitled to your opinion”.

LOL. I think you agreed with the main point of my post; “Granted, equating hybridization with producing generics or mis-matching localities was a bit of a stretch in comparison.”

“I also think it is quite an extrapolation for you to believe that there is necessarily some inherent 'shame' that hybridizers feel with regard to what they do.”

Where did I write that? It’s just not my gig, nor the like-minded individuals that I associate with.

What other types of 'issues' would there be short of catching someone in a lie or proving them wrong in some other way?

That is a very good question. Also, what should be the standards for this “proof”? Absolute certainty? Beyond a reasonable doubt? More likely than not?
Dunno.

Robert

Have you ever produced a generic alterna?

Yes, of course. I didn’t start out as a locality breeder.

In 1984, I bought my first pair of alterna from Tom Taylor in Tempe – they were generics. I produced one clutch of generic alterna in 2000. Presently, I have nine alterna in my collection that are considered “generic”, three from Ric Blair, four from Craig Hodgson, and two from a California breeder that shall go nameless. All these alterna were acquired prior to the new listing standard, and will be voided soon. I’ll probably give them away to kids at the next herp show I attend.

I wanted to add another alternative to my standards for proof, Occam's razor. Should that be an acceptable standard?

"Yes, of course. I didn’t start out as a locality breeder. "

So to extrapolate from your own quote here: "meaning if you like to cross species you may be that much more likely to cross localities" apparently you yourself are on an equal footing with hybridizers who have just as likely a propensity as yourself to cross localities?

"Presently, I have nine alterna in my collection that are considered “generic”, three from Ric Blair, four from Craig Hodgson, and two from a California breeder that shall go nameless. "

No need to be coy Roy. The nameless breeder is Todd Smith. Again you seem to assume that there is some type of shame associated with 'outlaw' locality breeding, right?

"All these alterna were acquired prior to the new listing standard, and will be voided soon. I’ll probably give them away to kids at the next herp show I attend. "

It was your choice to purchase these 'unsubstantiated' localities. As discussed earlier, not everyone necessarily requires the proof that others do and are content to take someone's word for the most part. Is it nice to have a family tree? Sure, but it is not the end all be all of locality breeding. Those animals might be just fine for someone else who might trust those individuals, correct? I believe that you are just attempting to make a point about how shameful individuals not on the current list should feel about themselves and implying that their animals are thus worthless. Again, few are as pure as you so it is a difficult standard to live up to.

"I wanted to add another alternative to my standards for proof, Occam's razor. Should that be an acceptable standard?"

Sure, I'd like to add another possible standard myself: The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Or maybe the objective collapse theory as it differs from the Copenhagen interpretation. LOL.

[So to extrapolate from your own quote here: "meaning if you like to cross species you may be that much more likely to cross localities" apparently you yourself are on an equal footing with hybridizers who have just as likely a propensity as yourself to cross localities?]

I think the only one feeling the need to extrapolate from my remarks is you.

"It was your choice to purchase these 'unsubstantiated' localities. As discussed earlier, not everyone necessarily requires the proof that others do and are content to take someone's word for the most part. Is it nice to have a family tree? Sure, but it is not the end all be all of locality breeding. Those animals might be just fine for someone else who might trust those individuals, correct? I believe that you are just attempting to make a point about how shameful individuals not on the current list should feel about themselves and implying that their animals are thus worthless."

I chose to acquire those "locality" snakes under a more relaxed standard. Now, I choose to give those snakes away that don't meet the necessary subtantiation. Nothing more, nothing less.

“Again, few are as pure as you so it is a difficult standard to live up to"

It is a very difficult standard to live up to, but there are TWELVE other breeders on the list and I have no doubt more breeders will be added.

"Sure, I'd like to add another possible standard myself: The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Or maybe the objective collapse theory as it differs from the Copenhagen interpretation. LOL."

Yeah, I'll be sure to add those standards to the list, per Glenn Fankhauser, LOL.

Craig has never produced anything I wouyld call generic Charlie Bentley

First, let me give you a little context for my remark.

From the Alterna Page - Recommended Breeder's page:
"If your breeder can not, or will not offer this service tracing the origin of their stock back to wild caught animals, then the animals in question can only be deemed generic."

Anything that doesn’t have traceable lineage will be deemed “generic”, and I was told Craig was very hard to get a hold off and a little obstinate about providing lineage.

Secondly, Craig sent me an email about the remark, so we are in contact and we are going to be discussing the ways that he can provide the required documentation. Contrary to what I was told, he appears to be quite willing to help.

Robert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Holmes – 2 Plomosas (Teachers

"Secondly, Craig sent me an email about the remark, so we are in contact and we are going to be discussing the ways that he can provide the required documentation. Contrary to what I was told, he appears to be quite willing to help. "

HMMMMM...seems like someone was a little too eager to jump the gun as well as to conclusions on the word of others rather than do his own investigating. I guess it wasn't really all that important to you to prove lineage of your mutts??? Much easier to complain about people than ask? HMMM...LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

"HMMMMM...seems like someone was a little too eager to jump the gun as well as to conclusions on the word of others rather than do his own investigating."

Yep, sometimes you have to trust the word of others. Isn't that right, Glenn? LOL!!!

As usual you don't see the point.

Trust the word of others DIRECTLY from them (i.e. directly from Craig) instead of not bothering to contact him yourself and rely on heresay from others...LOL!!!

Actually, I do see the point. I can't rely on information I obtain from other people. I have to contact the actual breeder directly. I see the light. I do..I do..I do. So, tell me where is Ric Blair?

Should have thought of that when you were changing your 'standards'... Or, sorry, before someone changed your standards for you seeing as how you can't make up your own mind about what you want. LOL

Actually, that was a rhetorical question. I know where Ric is, and I have MANY emails from Ric and he has MANY emails from me.

I tried to get to the bottom of several mixups he had so I could satisfy my own peculiar standard. After all, I had several snakes from his stock. Ric didn't keep lineage information. He relied on his memory, which was BAD to begin with. He identified locales using a piece of tape. That was the extent of the substantiation. Not good enough for the list.

Now thats the Craig I know.................

By the way... I trust all of the people that you have mentioned. I'd be more than happy to relieve you of the obvious stress you are feeling by having those mutts in your collection. (As I'm sure there are a lot of other people who would be willing to also do.)

LOL LOL

Be at the Tucson Reptile show. First come first serve. You can compete for them with the kiddies.

RP

What type of competition have you set up? Maybe a little mud wrestling for your pleasure? I'll be there with bells on!

I heard you can find almost any locality you want at the Tucson show. I want some of those 10 bander Davis Mtn. Blairs they had there a couple years ago.
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Yeah, they were "AMAZING GRAYS", LOL!!!!! I'm sorry, I couldn't resist, you threw me a slow pitch...

RP

be on any list to have faith in their animals. Id think Craig is one of those. Not sure if you have snakes that he wasnt too stringent about producing, but a guy that wont even mix north and south hill Xmas, is someone who Id trust. I can think of quite a few others that are very particular about what they breed, that arent on Joes list. Typically these guys dont produce enough, or arent concerned about selling their snakes, so being on a list isnt important to them. I like what Joes doing. However, people that arent on his list shouldnt be thought of as untrustworthy unless theyve had a history of questionable breeding.`

n/p

I KNOW that there are people not on that list that can be trusted. Unfortunately, I don't know Craig, but even if I did and I knew he was completely trustworthy (and from all that I've heard from you and others today, that's a given), without the documentation, ***I*** can only sell the offspring as generic. That's me..my gig, while I'm on the reservation (the list) under the watchful eye of the Ayatollah...lol.

RP

In my opinion, recommended breeders maintain integrity. This is why they are strict on recommended breeders. If you read the forums, there have been debacles where certain individuals gave the wrong representation for their animals.

To keep this short, I have seen some KNOCKOUT non locality animals (I refuse to call them generic) and I have seen some not so pretty locality animals. The last thing I would want to know is that I received what I thought was a West Sanderson, and in turn it is really a Lajitas animal.

Just using an example.

I totally agree with you. I believe that the breeders on the list have the utmost integrity. But I also believe that there are many not on the list who don't care to ever be on it that also have the utmost integrity.

I also agree with your statement about purchasing something you thought was one locality only to be shown it was another. That is something that is beyond the pale with regard to locality breeders. Similarly to bring the discussion back to hybrids, I would feel the same disgust if I was told a hybrid was between two species and later found out that it was two OTHER species. The world of locality alterna is not the only bastion of breeding integrity, or the only one that experiences instances of dishonesty.

While you’re on the subject of “utmost” integrity, let me ask you a few questions, and none of them deal specifically with your particular controversy – Study Butte.

1) What would you say about a person that misrepresents captive bred offspring for wild-caught animals?
2) What would you say about a breeder that has had a number of documented mixups and has been caught in a few lies?
3) What would you say about this same breeder if he apparently lied about the reason for dumping his collection?
4) What would you say about this same breeder again if the real motive for dumping his collection was obtaining cash so he could divorce his wife and skip to Mexico.

***if*** all that I laid out here to you is true, would you say that these persons had/have the “utmost” integrity?

"1) What would you say about a person that misrepresents captive bred offspring for wild-caught animals? "

I would say that that is not someone who should be trusted. (provided it could be proven that they misrepresented such)

"2) What would you say about a breeder that has had a number of documented mixups and has been caught in a few lies? "

Again, that person should not be trusted, at least for a while to gain a track record that they have learned from their mistakes and attempted to turn over a new leaf. (again, provided that there is documentation of the mixups.)

"3) What would you say about this same breeder if he apparently lied about the reason for dumping his collection? "

Is the motive really important? This is immaterial to the other issues.

"4) What would you say about this same breeder again if the real motive for dumping his collection was obtaining cash so he could divorce his wife and skip to Mexico. "

Again, ancillary to the other real issues. What difference would it make why someone chose to sell his/her collection?

"***if*** all that I laid out here to you is true, would you say that these persons had/have the “utmost” integrity?"

Not utmost, particularly if the lies/misrepresentation are documented.

I find it continually laughable that you attempt to bring up 'my particular controversy.' To me there is nothing necessarily controversial about it. I've never bragged about animals that I've caught, never misrepresented them, never attempted to charge ridiculous amounts of money for them, nor had any motive other than truth about what I produce and/or sell. And more importantly to the point, nothing has ever been proven otherwise. Keep bringing it up as many times as you want. You cannot start a fire without fuel. Were you secretly riding in my trunk and can tell everyone that I didn't collect the animals?

"1) What would you say about a person that misrepresents captive bred offspring for wild-caught animals? "

I would say that that is not someone who should be trusted. (provided it could be proven that they misrepresented such).

>I think we both agree.

"2) What would you say about a breeder that has had a number of documented mixups and has been caught in a few lies? "

Again, that person should not be trusted, at least for a while to gain a track record that they have learned from their mistakes and attempted to turn over a new leaf. (again, provided that there is documentation of the mixups.)

> Here, we agree (again), but suppose this breeder blamed everyone but himself for the mistakes?

"3) What would you say about this same breeder if he apparently lied about the reason for dumping his collection? "

Is the motive really important? This is immaterial to the other issues.

> It is very important if it discloses a pattern of lying and of an attempt to conceal the truth, AGAIN.

"4) What would you say about this same breeder again if the real motive for dumping his collection was obtaining cash so he could divorce his wife and skip to Mexico. "

Again, ancillary to the other real issues. What difference would it make why someone chose to sell his/her collection?

>Again, same answer as three.

"***if*** all that I laid out here to you is true, would you say that these persons had/have the “utmost” integrity?"

Not utmost, particularly if the lies/misrepresentation are documented.

>Actually, not “utmost” or any other form of integrity. Here, I think we agree again.

I find it continually laughable that you attempt to bring up 'my particular controversy.' To me there is nothing necessarily controversial about it.

>This is the point. YOU may be the only one in the US that doesn’t think there is a controversy. Do you know what the word controversy means? Controversy = dispute. It takes TWO to have a dispute. Do you deny your claim is disputed by well respected alterna people familiar with the area?

"This is the point. YOU may be the only one in the US that doesn’t think there is a controversy. Do you know what the word controversy means? Controversy = dispute. It takes TWO to have a dispute. Do you deny your claim is disputed by well respected alterna people familiar with the area? "

Actually isn't that the point? I don't believe there is a controversy because I know the truth. Truth does not equal controversy. It may be disputed, but dispute doesn't make my experience false does it? Do you equate the 'controversy' with any of the examples you listed previously? There may be some disbelief or question about how my animals could have been captured in the area where they were captured, but until it is proven otherwise, it is just speculation. The fact remains that no one else has spent any time hunting where I collected these individuals (and frankly I wouldn't have either) and until they do and find another animal there, then it is unlikely anyone will be convinced - or frankly I would assume that even if they did, they would be doubted as well, correct? I guess I'll just have to hope that for whatever reason YOU decide to focus on that area and that you find one there, right? LOL. But then I guess your honesty will then be in question so I suggest that you don't tell anyone even if you do catch one. I would contend that persons should be given the benefit of the doubt unless and until they are proven to be liars.

I stand corrected they are not generic they are non locality a much better term for cool snakes

My opinion is that you have to read these forums from the past to get a general idea. I have East Sandersons from two of the recommended breeders. Very nice and good people, and one of them has helped me gain vast experience with alterna.

On the other hand, I also have a Christmas Mountain from Larry Briggs and a Highway 277 from Mitchell Murks who purchased this alterna from Brad Alexander.

To conclude this, through reading forums and concluding, there is one persons' alternas I do stay away from. I am not calling out names, however. Its completely up to you.

I don't mean to continually agree, but you are correct - it all comes down to your own judgement about whether you trust the person or not. Similarly, there are those who I wouldn't trust. That being said, I don't necessarily have mistrust for someone I don't know, until they prove otherwise. In the end, it all comes down to the fact that the only true locality alterna are the ones that you have picked up from the wild with your own two hands.

Just because you pick it up with your own two hands does not mean that you might not tell everyone else you caught it elsewhere. If people do not trust you, it does not mean a hill of beans where you "say" you caught it. It is only good to you, which is not all that bad if you are dilusional. IMHO

If you loose peoples trust, you are doomed. And, arguing against those that have certian beliefs will not change a thing. It will only add to your own dilusions.

ECTimaeus

Thank you Eric for making my point and the point I've been trying to reference all along. I guess I wasn't as eloquent as you just were. ANYONE can provide pictures and data and submit it to claim locality - doesn't make it valid - also doesn't make it invalid - just allows you to return to the fallback position of trusting the person themselves. A person could easily pick up some generic alterna at a show, take pictures of them, make up some locality collecting data, submit it and become a breeder. As long as there are no other pictures of those snakes out there for someone to contradict them then they suddenly have 'locality' animals. I'm not saying that this happens or has happened as frankly I just don't see the rationale or motive behind it but the fact remains that it COULD happen.

No system is going to be perfect but I would emphasize that pictures do provide another tool with which to catch lies, just as you said. The reason being sometimes liars will change their stories so if someone buys or catches an alterna they may tell one story in the beginning and later change the story. If the pictures are in a database there is a better chance someone will recognize the snake as not being what it was once claimed.
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I see the tounge-in-cheek here Glenn, and appreciate the somewhat sideways humor of it. There are many people either on or off this forum that are sincerely dedicated to their interest in the natural variation of Lampropeltis alterna throughout its range for any number of personal or scientific reasons. Colin certainly fits this model and has made great effort to achieve it.

In my opinion, we don't need a self-proclaimed "Ayatollah of Alterna" to dictate standards according to their particular interpretation of veracity, nor do we need "Purity Police" to enforce those standards on this forum or elsewhere. Wars continue to be fought over this very type of autocratic thinking that results in mandatation of fundamental rules and standards that must be followed and are enforced through imposition of dire consequences to the perceived "infidel".

For all concerned with this topic, if you are not convinced of a locality representation according to your own standards of acceptability for any reason, then don't engage in an action that is contrary to them. Seek out alterna enthusiasts that share the same passion for true locality representation of gray-banded kingsnakes, inquire, gather information that is personally satifactory, and make your own decisions from that point. Otherwise, go find your own snakes and dispense with the pedigree issues. No individual should dictate who is acceptable or not by imposing their standards on others.

That's my two cents worth on this subject.

Robert,

In theory you are absolutely correct. BUT, who looks out for the beginner, the people that cannot get out to capture their own, or those that are not able to find their own? When someone is not honest about it, WE ALL LOOSE. Someone even experienced as yourslf may have been duped by someone. If everyone else trusts you and you sell offspring from the "duper", we all loose. There does need to be checks and balances just as we have them for something like counterfit money makers. I know, a stretch but same principle. If you sell mutts as pure, you are counterfiting. Plain and simple. So, what better mechanism can you provide than policing ourselves? I feel pretty confident that if you found out you were "duped" you would raise the flag as would or should everyone else, so we do not all loose. If I am not correct, please let me know.

ECTimaeus

Thank you Bob, that was one of the most well-written posts I've seen in a long time.

And thank you also for seeing that a lot of what I've been doing has been tongue-in-cheek and I do have an ususual sense of humor.

I agree with you also about Colin. In no way was what I posted originally any slam against him, but rather just to shed light on the fact that doubt can be shed on everyone and it is about personal resposibility in the end. I trust Colin implicitly with regards to his animals. I also trust many other people whom I might disagree with philosophically, Eric and Joe among them. If I purchased animals from them I would have no doubt that they were honestly represented, as I would also probably everyone else on the list whether I know them or not. I would also completely trust MANY others who are not on the breeders list (you among them) because I think it is important to remember who you are dealing with and what their reputation is over ALL other factors.

One of the Big problems that I see is one that has come about as a result of our innate desires to produce animals that are more and more 'aesthetically' pleasing to us. In a matter of two or three generations I've been able to produce localty animals (even through line breeding from a gravid wild-collected mother and her offspring) which have NO resemblance to any other pictures of animals that I've seen from that locality. This has happened with my offspring SEVERAL times as I'm sure it has with MANY other breeders. It happens because we generally keep back unusual or aberrant animals because we consider them just that - unusual. It is unlikely that we would keep back the ugliest animals nor the animals that most resemble their parents - that is just a facet of captive breeding. The problem I would see is that there would be someone who would cast aspersions on these offspring as not being locality simply because that person has never personally seen an individual like that as a 'wild' snake from that locality and then throwing out your babies as generic. I think it is clear that this continually happens with Black Gap animals in particular as people have produced pattenless or speckled animals that some don't feel represent the location and doubt their purity. From talking with you, I know that you believe that that area in particular might be the 'gene pool sink' for the entire population of alterna and could therefore produce any number of aberrant individuals - with the eastern edge of that sink being Sanderson. I hate that breeders are not able to exploit the edges of the gene pools of localities because they are doubted when they produce highly unusual locality animals.

"In my opinion, we don't need a self-proclaimed "Ayatollah of Alterna" to dictate standards according to their particular interpretation of veracity, nor do we need "Purity Police" to enforce those standards on this forum or elsewhere."

Amen. I don't need to add anything to that at all.

"For all concerned with this topic, if you are not convinced of a locality representation according to your own standards of acceptability for any reason, then don't engage in an action that is contrary to them. Seek out alterna enthusiasts that share the same passion for true locality representation of gray-banded kingsnakes, inquire, gather information that is personally satifactory, and make your own decisions from that point. Otherwise, go find your own snakes and dispense with the pedigree issues. No individual should dictate who is acceptable or not by imposing their standards on others. "

Bob I am very appreciative that you have decided to weigh in with this opinion because it is exactly the opinion that I hold and I believe a lot of other people hold as well.

So, I think you are saying if you want locality, buy or trade from someone you trust. If you do not trust them or others do not trust them (for what ever reason), you may be buying a pig in a poke. Alternative - collect your own, not worry about locality, go for the look you want and locality be damned.

I had not thought about it much prior to someone posting the idea of line breeding for the unusual. If you are line breeding consistent unusual colors, patterns, or morphs you may be technically correct that they are locality lineage BUT, some of us would not consider them true examples of locality animals. Especially if there has not been a confirmed wild caught example. I admit that you may not really care what I think, it is just MHO.

ECTimaeus

Sure, that's what I've always said and I think a lot of others have as well. You can only be sure of locality if you see it picked up with your own eyes. Line bred sports may not be good 'examples' of localities, but they are nonetheless locality bloodlines. I do care what other people's opinions are whether I agree with them or not.

Well said Robert.

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Steve W.

Nice 9 mile North of Sandersons. One of these days, I am going to have to go out there and search the road cuts to find me a 9 miler.

when you do collect one. Go for it!

I am going to have to research for a trip to West Texas. If I make it out to West Texas, I think Sanderson and Christmas Mountains would be my likely destinations.

My post is gone so I will post again.. until it's not gone.

a. Colin, your animals are quality.
b. I know you are out because I/WE have been out at a lot of the same times so the animals are legit.
c. Don't let the haters get you down.

If your animals are in question, please let me know.

Thanks,

StevenX

I'm a little confused by all this hoopla...isn't Colin already on the breeders list?

Robert

Again I could be wrong about this, but I believe that he has only recently been added, since I posted the comment about generics.

np

Nice !

Colin, Very nice snakes, Congrats! John

Congratulations! Very nice snakes.

Casey Lazik