Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Being the last day of the criminalization of our pastime, I'd like to thank all of those who took even the smallest steps in bringing about the changes that were so hard fought over the last four years. I look forward to the resumption of the alterna of the month and the exciting posts that are to follow. Enjoy and stay safe!

John

My reflective suit will include Christmas tree lights.

RP

John,

First off, let me say that I do not have any argument with what you said in your post below to Tanks.

Next, I believe it is a very good thing that the Texas Legislature saw fit to change the ROW collecting rules. It is a long time coming. And, I too thank those that fought for the changes. Maybe now, everyone will congratulate those that had a hand in it.

I would like to remind everyone that the way the state looks at this is as a "privilege". We had to prove a lot of points to get this reversed. It will probably not take a lot of dumb things to happen to give the opposition an argument to get this turned around again. So, I caution anyone and everyone to obey the laws. Buy the appropriate licenses, permits and stamps. Not only the "law" with regard to Herp collecting but also the traffic laws. For example, do not make illegal U-turns, turn in front of other cars, shine bright lights into other cars, block the roadway, stop in the road and leave your vehicle, shine spotlights across the lanes of traffic, and so on.

The ecosystem on the ROWs in West Texas is not only small but very fragile. I have personally seen several places along the roadway that people have pulled the rock cuts apart. This damages places for herps to hide and get into protected places from the sun/heat. I can also tell you from 40 years experience in West Texas that it is virtually impossible to find anything good from "flipping" rocks especially if the daytime temp gets above 85 degrees. If you must "flip" a rock please put it back in the same place and not "flip" it over. We in Texas do not want what has happened in norther milksnake country to happen here.

On a side bar if you go collecting to rebuild or increase your colony to produce offspring for sale, how is that not commercial collecting?

Stay safe out there. Texans will be watching and will not hesitate to let you know if you are doing something wrong or illegal. We do not want more regulation.

ECTimaeus

"It will probably not take a lot of dumb things to happen to give the opposition an argument to get this turned around again. So, I caution anyone and everyone to obey the laws. Buy the appropriate licenses, permits and stamps. Not only the "law" with regard to Herp collecting but also the traffic laws. For example, do not make illegal U-turns, turn in front of other cars, shine bright lights into other cars, block the roadway, stop in the road and leave your vehicle, shine spotlights across the lanes of traffic, and so on. ""

The things you have mentioned have always been dumb things that cause people to think snake hunters are inconsiderate or unsafe. However, I believe that your comment about obeying traffic laws is misplaced when discussing the lifting of the ROW ban. You shouldn't be in your vehicle spotlighting, nor should there be any reason for you to stop in the road to leave your vehicle. You should park your car well off the road, put on your vest and walk the roadside, correct? The only time I could think of that you might stop along the highway would be to 'observe' a reptile as you were traveling between areas where you are walking road cuts, or to collect insects, right? Seems if everyone follows the new regulations to the letter then there won't be any of these traffic infractions.

I also wonder if these new regulations are going to see a mass conversion of experienced entomologists to herpetologists as we saw the reverse of four years ago.

"You should park your car well off the road, put on your vest and walk the roadside, correct?"

Yes, that's the only legal way to hunt herps now as I understand it. I know I won't be looking for bugs, I will be parked and looking for snakes.

The only gray area, I think, is if you are driving to and from walking sites and you see a snake you may legally park, put on your vest and let the snake crawl all the way off the road on it's own and then collect it. I'm not sure though.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

Yes, I could theoretically see that as a loophole. If you see a snake on the road while you are traveling between walking areas you could pull off the road, turn off the car, park, and collect the snake as it slithered off the roadway. Although I guess that you could theroetically walk along the shoulder of the road - or even in the road for that matter - with a flashlight and collect snakes on the roadway, just not from a vehicle.

I also will not be looking for insects....

You "theoretically" would not have to even worry about collecting illegally or commercially if you would keep yourself out of Texas and collect in your own state. Stay home and exploit your native herps. IMHO

ECTimaeus

I should also have mentioned, that way you can profess to be an expert about CA laws. We also want to ensure we do not collect in State and National Parks.

ECTimaeus

By the way, it is interesting how quickly you try to make the discussion personal...someone is particularly sensitive for some reason.

I guess "personal is as personal does". I said it before, "if you live in a glass house, do not throw rocks." Get it?

ECTimaeus

Ummm, first, my house isn't made of glass. Second, what knowledge do you have of me firsthand or otherwise that makes you able to personally attack me? (just like to insert here that personal attacks are supposedly against the TOS- HA!)

What did I say that was a personal attack? Sounded to me like I was giving sound advice. I assure you there was no attack involved. Again, just pointing out why it is good to not critisize others.

ECTimaeus

Ok. I guess I was just confused. Guess I'm worrying about black helicopters. Sorry to have read into your post. Glad to know you don't have any problems with me other than you want to keep me from coming to vacation in Texas (which my family has been doing - as well as living in - probably since before your great-grandfather was a gleam in your great-great grandfather's eye). LOL!LOL!ROTFL!

So what you are saying is that no out of state collectors should bring their money to spend it Texas?

By the way, I do consider myself an expert on my own local collecting laws. Have you ever collected here?

No, I am not talking about all out of state collectors. The post was obviously directed at you. So, DO NOT try to turn this into something it is not.

Yes, I do know CA laws although I am sure I am out of date with some of them since I have not been there in several years but, I do not profess to be an "expert". Yes, I have collected in CA, I grew up out there and collected out there a long time before you were even a gleam in your father's eyes.

ECTimaeus

Again, I don't know why you get so frustrated that you want to make things personal. If you have a problem with me personally coming to collect in TX, what exactly would that problem be based on? Have I done something to make your life in TX worse? As far as you collecting in CA - I don't believe you even have any idea about how old I am, correct? So 1) I don't think you can make the determination about how large the gleam was in my father's eye and 2) clearly as we have established from the lengthy tirade you participated in below that age does not necessarily confer concern for the environment, nor animals that they collect (nay 'roundup').

You forget, you came to my house many years ago with your father. I know there is a large enough age difference between you and me to know I was collecting in CA before you were even born. So once again, YOU do not know.

My personal problem with you is that you want to critisize something that is legal in Texas, be upset when you cannot come to Texas and collect because it is not legal, then jump on the bandwagon when it is legal and then want to come to Texas and collect. So, to me I wonder why you would even want to come to Texas unless it was to exploit our wildlife and go home and make a $$$$$$. The glass house thing is an analogy- DUH. You continue to be evasive and want to only push your agenda and be unwilling to address the actual issue. So, you made yourself a problem for me. Nothing personal specifically about you, maybe you cannot help it. I feel the same way about others that act as you. Maybe you forget that you accused me of turning loose Blue Baja Lizards on my property and that they were not indiginous to Texas. That was a personal attack. So we are back to the "glass house" analogy.

ECTimaeus

"You forget, you came to my house many years ago with your father. I know there is a large enough age difference between you and me to know I was collecting in CA before you were even born. So once again, YOU do not know. "

I don't forget, you forgot that I was there and denied that you lived in the hill country. You DON'T know how old I am. Unless you were a carnie (possible I suppose) who guessed people's ages, you don't know my age. So you don't know unless you ask me when I was born how old I was or wasn't when you collected in my state, right?

"My personal problem with you is that you want to critisize something that is legal in Texas, be upset when you cannot come to Texas and collect because it is not legal, then jump on the bandwagon when it is legal and then want to come to Texas and collect. "

I criticize roundups because I think they are wrong - regardless of whether they are legal or not. Is it not my right to do so? Do I also not have the right to be upset (along with you) when the right to leisurely collect snakes in TX the way I would prefer to do is taken away? And don't I subsequently have the right to be happy when the right is returned?

"So, to me I wonder why you would even want to come to Texas unless it was to exploit our wildlife and go home and make a $$$$$$."

Call it bad business practices, but I don't make money on my snakes, so the point you continually try to make doesn't hold water.

"The glass house thing is an analogy- DUH."

Really? Huh, that's a new one.

"You continue to be evasive and want to only push your agenda and be unwilling to address the actual issue."

K. What am I evading? And what is my agenda? Didn't know that I put out an agenda (or a manifesto for that matter LOL).

"I feel the same way about others that act as you."

How is it that I act?

"Maybe you forget that you accused me of turning loose Blue Baja Lizards on my property and that they were not indiginous to Texas. That was a personal attack."

Yes, something which you have denied and I have accepted. Again, not how I remember it, nor do I remember them being in an enclosure, but it is hard for me to remember any of the things that happened to me before I was 5yrs old. LOL. Not an attack, just trying to point out something which I KNEW from experience. Anything you know about me from YOUR experience?

By the way, you are more than welcome to come and collect in CA, (as if I was the person who controlled your access - how arrogant would it be of me to assume that?LOL) provided you follow the local regulations as well. You should find the regulations particularly to your liking as there is no restriction on how you can collect rattlesnakes (i.e. gas or destroying dens), nor is there a LIMIT ON THE NUMBER YOU CAN TAKE!!! You can get thousands a day - yippie! And guess what? You don't even need a license or a commercial collecting permit. Kill away everyone! Why would you want to live in TX anymore Eric?

You two are like two old women bickering and I for one have had enough. This is not your thread. This guy tried to say something positive and you took it and turned it to crap. You will never agree so square off in the middle of the road or give it a rest. At least ruin your own thread, not this one.
It will just be nice to be back out West, doing what we do without looking over our shoulder.

Indeed it is, punch it out, shoot it out or shut it up. Thanks Rick, for pointing out that some good old fashioned common sense and decency is in order here. I hope all is well with you my old friend.

Sorry, I did get a little carried away and maybe even acted a little immature. NO excuses, just sometimes difficult to separate threads. Thankyou for bringing me back to reality. I do mean this with all sincerity!

This thread is a very positive issue. I was not intending to turn it negative. I was pointing out what it took to get "it" back and hopefully offer some advice on how to keep "it".

ECTimaeus

I agree. I think that everyone is well aware of the work that several people went to to get the law changed to a more reasonable and workable solution for all involved. It is still not perfect, but at least it allows us to do legally what we all would like to do.

As far as personalities you are also correct. It appears that these two people cannot even agree when they agree. I think the important thing is to have discussions without degrading to name calling or 'throwing rocks.'

If you collect breeders for yourself and sell the babies for profit I call that commercial breeding not commercial collecting.

IMHO nothing is really commercial unless you make a profit. As I understand it if you have a bussiness and show a loss for X number of years in a row the IRS will tell you that what you have is a hobby and to quit taking illegal deductions.

TPWD as well actually define what is and isn't commercial collecting. I believe it is anything under 25 in the aggregate and not sold is not considered commercial.

Lastly there are vastly different dynamics and ethical standards between all the different sets of activities. It really means nothing whether you call something commercial or not because the label isn't going to change the ethics involved in each activity.
-----
www.hcu-tx.org/

Thanks so much for the post. I agree with your sentiments and also appreciate those that fought hard. I don't get to spend much time out anymore, but I like knowing that if I wanted to I could.

Best Wishes,

StevenX

Welcome anytime.

I just saw a news report from the Houston Zoo talking about the herp stamp being available tomorrow and the reporter was handling a suboc and later a milk. She was explaining how with the collectors permit, hunting license and the stamp you can collect on the right of ways again. She actually had her facts straight. Suprised me to see that it got any press.

Chris

....be constantly vigilant, and engaged. Let's not let this happen ever again!

-----
Brad Chambers
WWW.HCU-TX.ORG

Boas, Pythons, Colubrids, Tortoises and Turtles

Just got back from Academy. Got my license,permit and stamp and i'm good to go. I was amazed they actually knew what i was asking for. I've never had a cashier no what i was asking for before. lol

Chris

How much was it all together?

Thanks!

The resident hunting license was 25, the nongame permit was 19 and 10 for the reptile stamp. Money well spent in my book.

Chris