Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Aside from my other post about my female being attacked by the male....

I have been handling the female (8" a lot lately since we went to the vet and she's getting antibiotic injections and betadine on the wounds on her neck.
We (the vet and later myself) have been able to peel layer after layer of pieces of her shell ('scutes?') - - - UNTIL I got the point last night when I was worried because what's left is of course still shell... but it was coated with a black pasty substance - like some organic material between the deeper layers of the shell was there and I don't think it should be.

The set-up and conditions:
As in my other post, we have currently less than optimal conditions.
1. The tank is too small - it needs to be either a 75 gallon breeder (said the pet store owner), or something like a 150 gallon aquarium (which he said was unnecessary because so much height is wasted). But for a total of 14" of carapace our 75 gallon 24" tall tank is just not working, esp. now that I've had to separate the turtles to keep the male from actually killing the female since her injury is already profound.

2. We have a Fluval 405 filter that works fairly well for this 75 gallon tank (but will be inadequate for the upcoming tank size change I think.....unless it still would work in a 75 gallon breeder tank....

3. I don't treat the water and don't know if it's hard or soft - we do get mineral deposits in our electric water kettle so we 'think' it's a bit hard

4. There is a full length tank hood with two full spectrum fluorescent tubes in it shining through a glass top.

5. The turtles are approximately 8 years old. They have lived together for almost that entire time.

6. They had floating turtle docks (because the darned suction cups dry out and they end up floating by default) which they used occasionally). I got the new magnetically attached types and of course the magnets suck - so I ordered neodymium magnets and we'll see if that will hold the new docks.

7. There is NO heat lamp because I was told that turtles at this age and size only need the full-spectrum tubes.

8. The water temperature is a constant 80 degrees F in the summer with no heater running despite the room temp being 72. It just stays that way and we can't control it.

9. The turtles spend 90% of their time submerged. In fact the smaller male likes to go for record dive times and can stay under for an entire HOUR. He's more active than the larger female and always has been.

10. I put live fish of different sizes (feeders) and they have eaten 4 out of 12 in the last several days - but the fish stay entirely on the male's side for some reason even though he's quicker and more apt to catch them. Neither turtle seems that competent in catching them though. I switched the 'sides' the turtles were on - and the fish FOLLOWED the male through the egg crate TO his new side - thinking maybe they were hanging out at either the input or the output of the filter system. But that's NOT the case. They are simply avoiding HER. I try to herd them over to her side and she did catch two more tonight. But I need BIGGER, and preferably a bit slower feeder or goldfish.

11. I hardly EVER do water changes as they've grown older. Maybe 2x/year because it's a big pain and the Fluval seems to keep up with everything except loose shells and some occasional detritus that is too large and hard to break down.

So, I'm not sure what this black, pasty substance is that's coming off the injured females peeled off shell - but the vet never saw it because it didn't become accessible until the female had been back in the water again for some time and more of her shell became easily removable. I removed some of the gunk tonight and revealed a small open wound/cut on her back between the pieces that came off. So I used betadine on that too. Thank goodness she's on antibiotic injections.

I don't know what I'm doing wrong - maybe they need secure docks and a heat lamp even at their age?

And I need a place to look for new equipment - a larger tank, adequate filter and that's about it. Can't afford NEW because I've been unemployed for 3 years.
I could put an egg crate divider in the new tank if need be. There is NO way that I'm going to get into setting up TWO tanks though. We don't have the money or the room. And these guys were living together quite well for many years until 'something' changed.

I'm worried - I'll probably ask the vet - but I thought I'd ask here. Hoping I get some answers. Thanks so much in advance.

Hi,

I am not sure where you got the information but your turtles need a secure basking spot and a heat souce over it. Without it their shells can not dry off and kill bacteria. Sliders are sun worshipers and should be provided this choice year round. I had to make my own basking area because the ones on the market are geared toward small turtles and my female is 12" and just over 4 lbs. In addition they need to be able to warm up to digest their food. Please make these adjustments as soon as you can. In the meantime, you can soak the female in shallow warm water with betadine added to make it the color of tea. Soak for about 10 minutes and then rinse her off well. Do not allow her to fully submerse or drink the water. You can also put Triple
Antibiotic ointment(from any store like walmart)on the areas and just leave it as it will not hurt the water.

You are going to have to permanently seperate them or he will end of killing her. My large male did kill one of my turtles after years of living together.

Hope this helps
Linda

I agree with everything you said. Except I don't understand why they have lived so well for so many years with NO basking light or basking area whatsoever - it's always sort of a paradox that people say what 'must' be done when you've literally gone through years of NOT doing exactly that and there is no difference.

Until he started biting her neck skin off down to the flesh, nothing whatsoever would have changed... I wouldn't have separated them. They would still have nothing but the suction-cupped on single turtle dock that they used to share together - -but absolutely no basking lamp...

Why does something 'work' that isn't supposed to work. Now, just because I have new 'information' I have to make radical changes. Well... really the radical change will be to get a second 75 gallon tank (nobody EVER answered me about whether it's better to get a breeder style geometry or a standard aquarium) and separate them.

I suppose I'll set up a basking light over the dock in each tank. But I still don't get why they never seemed to need it before... apparently the answer is that I 'got lucky.'

I'm going to do it properly. Despite the fact that the vet, who allegedly specializes in reptiles to whatever degree she really does... didn't mention adding basking lights or doing the betadine bath you recommend.

She did, however, have me make a betadine dilution (I used 1:100) and put it on the wound itself while she was out getting her antibiotic injection anyway.

Someone on another forum - I think the admin at redearedslider.com (who is VERY nice) suggested dry docking her overnight.

So there are a lot of suggestions and actions to immediately take I suppose. I think this dry docking idea is a good one. I think your basking light idea is probably the conservative way to go, esp. since HER shell when we started peeling off layers and layers had this black-ish gunk I managed to get all off... so her shell was obviously teetering on the brink of disaster (right)?

Also, I need to know what type and strength of bulb is needed for this basking light - and how far to position it above the basking area. And, does it work if it's shining THROUGH the plexiglass on top of the tank - or do I need to switch to a screen top....

It's all starting to sound like a very expensive proposition to get the new tank/filter/stand (although it doesn't have to be an official tank stand as long as they physics of the weight work out properly. Hood. Full-spectrum fluorescent tubes (which I use now).

All this is an incredible strain on us financially as I've been unemployed for 3 years.

I can try Craigslist, but one never knows if one is getting a tank in good (meaning never going to leak) condition, or if it comes with a filter if that filter is indeed in working condition.

I wonder about eBay, since there are slim pickings for 75 gallon tanks in Craigslist in my search to date..

Pet stores charge an enormous markup compared to any other means of securing goods...

And I'm still wondering about this breeder tank versus standard tank issue.

It is a bit overwelming to get set up completely but once it is done is it easier to maintain. When I share info with others about care for these guys I always tell them to think of how they would live in the wild. To avoid any long term health issues you need to set them up that way. RES bask alot and needs to be given this opportunity at all times. Mine basks most of the day. I would suggest you get online and read some care sheets. If you think about it, a person could live in a closet for their entire life. Sure they would survive but think of the ramifications of no sun light over a period of time.
Incorrect enclosures will more than likely manifest problems at some point. The details of my enclosure is as follows. I raised my RES from a hatchling the size of a quarter to about 12 inches and over 4 lbs. She is 12 years old now. I have never had a problem with her. She lays unfertile eggs 2X a year and thrives. I do not heat the water. You mentioned that your water was a constant 80 degrees. In my opinion this is too warm. If you think about it, no where in the wild is their water a constant 80 degrees. They move within their habitat to warmer and colder temps. Mine prefers about 74 degrees. If your house is cold add a ceramic heater or red bulb for heat at night instead of a water heater. You want to keep their water temp below the basking area of 85-90 degrees. They need to be able to choose their own temps. I also wanted to mention that you can use a huge rubbermaid container temporarily for her home while you search for another aquarium. They are cheap and can be purchased at any LOWES, Home Dept or Menards. As far as the heat bulb you can use a regular white household bulb for heat. I would start with a 100 watt and check the temp on the basking spot. You want it at 85-90 degrees. You can make changes necessary to get it to the desired temp. I would switch to a heavy duty screen on top to sit it on. Old oven grills also work well in a pinch.

Can you post a picture of her? and the injury?

Thanks

This is the best shot I could get at the moment. Now that she started eating feeder fish so well, I could probably get a shot of her neck entirely extended this week when I put more fish in. The vet wanted me to start them on a diet of live fish. At first she found it hard to catch them and got bored - but once I slowed one of the bigger fish down slightly she seemed to get an immediate taste for them and kept chasing them with an energy she hasn't displayed in years.

I will absolutely set up a basking light over her basking ramp - and once I get a separate tank for the male I'll set one up for him too.

I think it's a good idea that the other guy had to dry dock her overnight for a while until her wound heals.

I am saying that their water temperature was just staying at approx 80 degrees even with the heater turned off (and we had our central AC on... I'm sure it will drop now that our house is not heated or air conditioned for the moment - we're kind of in between seasons here in NY. So the house is currently around 66 degrees and the water will (by the laws of physics) lose heat steadily, albeit slowly I imagine. It's just that in the summer there must be something affecting the water temp since we keep the AC at 73 degrees. I don't know what's causing the warming up to 80. It could be that the tank is near our large sliding glass door to the back deck, which gets some sun exposure for a few hours of the day during the summer - we have vertical blinds but they are not black-out type. We just replaced them actually. They do transmit light, but I don't know how they'd make up for the heat differential. It's a bit of a mystery why the tank gets up to 80 degrees in the summer = but we'll deal with that next summer. Now we have to deal with rapidly cooling temps leading into Winter...

I'm going to do the dry dock thing. Do you also think I should do the 'whole turtle' betadine wash? Or should I just wipe her shell off as I have been.

Here is a photo:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Uf0XD-b5dOGJ0AJC8fy6-g?feat=directlink

Hello again,

What has been her diet up to now? Have you actually seen the male biting her? This almost looks like like a Vitamin A overload. Please give more details on diet. Do you see shedding skin anywhere else? Look at the back legs and around the edge of the shell.

I don't mean to be a pain but completely disagree with your vet on giving her live fish. RES eat less protein and more plant matter and veggies as they get older. Vets mean well but are often times wrong. I know this from experience and I have an exotic vet.

You are doing the right thing by asking questions so please don't take my comments the wrong way. That is what the forum is for.

Ps: I had to throw in this pic of my baby box turtle. He is so cute.
Linda

Their diet for YEARS now has been solely the sticks, whatever they are called, but they are not vitamin fortified with A for certain.

Actually, my Vet said she thought they were Vitamin A deficient - and I went and got this Herpavite powder that uses Beta Carotene which can convert to A but cannot cause toxicity, if I understand it correctly. I've been taking their food sticks and wetting them and letting some of the powder soak into the sticks and making sure it gets absorbed before feeding them.

I will stop the fish thing then. They sure seemed to enjoy them though...

I'm starting to dry dock her tonight, as the admin from the redearedslider.com forum suggested.

Her wound is open and bleeding again and I don't think it will stop unless I dry dock her at least overnight for a while - or maybe even permanently until she heals???

Historically, they shed very little scales or scutes or what do you call them, which I found suspicious.

As for the frequency of this biting, it seems like it picked up considerably in the past year or two, to the point where I'd have to physically do something to get the male to release his death grip on the skin on her neck.

They used to just spend a lot of time together actually, with the male lounging on top of the female on the dock I had that used suction cups, until for whatever reason I removed that (I think it was because it became a nuisance because the suction cups stopped working and it just floated around).

I don't know what changed or why. I do know I need to get the basking light going again tomorrow if possible though. I have new docks and she readily climbed on one of them, so I guess she's still interested. I do need to get the triple antibiotic lotion on them, although this admin guy thought they were usually prescribed. My vet just prescribed the injected antibiotic and the localized betadine swabbing. But she's bleeding and she needs more than the vet suggested.

Again, I have to disagree with your vet. A vitamin A deficiency causes swollen eyes. Too much Vit A causes excessive skin shedding. If the area gets infected that is where the problem comes in. I state this from experience. I was giving my turtles a treat of dried shrimp many years ago. Their skin started really pealing and when I read the contents closely I realized it was too much Vit A. After stopping it I have never had a problem. Also the fact you mentioned they have never shed their scutes goes back to having a proper basking area. Mine shed their scutes two times a year. If they were eating Reptomin or Wardleys pellets they do not have a Vit A deficiency. These are pretty much a staple for aquatic turtles. I would discontinue the Vit A supplements. The antibiotic ointment is over the counter. It is the generic if you will of neosporin ointment. Just go to the pharmacy counter and ask where they keep it. Start feeding your turtles romaine lettuce (not iceberg), Turnip greens and mustard greens. small bits of fruit including stawberries and bananas and finely chopped up veggies. Another great food for them is Anarcharis. This grows wild in their environment and my turtles adore it. You can get this in the fish area of Petsmart. It may take a while but they will more than likely love it. Only give meat 3 times per week and in small amounts. In the meantime do the following

Provide the basking area with a heat light 85-90 degress

Wash and rinse the turtles neck well with the betadine solution and then spread a thick layer of Triple antibiotic ointment on the wound area and then dry dock her for one hour twice daily.

Do not leave her out of the water all day as she can get dehydrated.

Do not remove the ointment and place her back in clean water.
Improve her diet and stop giving Vit A supplement.

Keep her separate from the male.

I am pretty sure this should take care of the problem. If you see any other issues with her get a picture and post it. Let me know if you have any other questions

I would strongly encourage you to do lots of research on these guys. I think your vet means well but I don't believe he/she is very experienced with turtles.

Hope this helps
Linda
PS: I have enclosed yet another picture of my outdoor pond for summer use.

I think you might be over-reacting to what I wrote - and probably I didn't convey what my vet said or didn't say very well. She wasn't exact or specific. She did think feeding them live fish was a good idea. She gave me 2 weeks of antibiotic injections. She did also tell me to do a betadine dilution on the wound. That was about it. But - today, a week after my visit, she called and spent over half an hour going over the ideas I've collected from both you and the admin, Steve, at redearedsliders.com. She thought dry docking her for the entire night (Steve's recommendation) was a good idea and was not concerned with dehydration as long as MU went back into the water during the day. She was NOT suggesting that I continuously feed them live fish. I needed to press her to be more exact - but in the end she said she'd give them a dozen a MONTH. She agreed with the triple-antibiotic lotion. She didn't think basking in a heat lamp for 8 year old turtles was crucial, as long as they have the full spectrum light, but she said it can't hurt IF my turtles would even take to it. I think they will, personally, because they have been coming up onto their magnetic docks lately, esp. MU. It has been Reptomin for years now. Nothing else. I was the one who thought of using Herpavite, which contains Beta Carotene - which can be converted to Vitamin A (I forget the biological process but the idea is that there is no risk of toxicity). They DO and DID have swollen eyes. Your method of dry docking is different from what my vet and the admin, Steve recommend. They are more aggressive about it given that it will give her shell and neck time to dry out. I am getting a second entire set-up tomorrow so they will be separated forever more. The vet wants me to bring her back for a look after about 3 or 4 weeks from the time the antibiotics started. She went out of her way to spend that much time with me on the phone discussing every detail - she had no comment about vegetables or fruits...

I have given you advice based on many years of keeping turtles without illness. Ultimately it is your decision on her care. I am not slamming your vet, I am sure she means well. The problem is that she probably does not treat many turtles. Again, I would advise that you get on some care sites and I think you will find that almost every site recommends a basking area and a heat source. I do believe if your turtles eyes were swollen while eating Reptomin in moderation than there is something else going on.

Good luck with her

I am setting up basking areas with heat in both tanks. In fact I'm trying to ascertain what type of bulb, what wattage, what housing, and how far should the actual bulb be above the basking area to not cause any possible harm to the turtle from eye strain from the bright light...???

So I'm actually doing exactly as you directed... at least I think I am. Except that I'm dry docking her all day until her wound heals a bit because the vet and the admin from the other site seemed to both think that was the thing to do - and I'm already sensing that it's helping her. And I'm going to compromise and give them fish once a MONTH now that I pressed the vet on how much and how often - she still thinks that there are many valuable nutrients from live fish given sparingly.

Right now I just finished setting up the male in his new tank - alone - I got a tank and stand for $100 in CT, along with a bunch of useless filtration and other stuff that I don't even understand - it was for a saltwater reef aquarium and he gave me all kinds of things I don't understand or need - specific gravity meter, protein skimmer, two kinds of fish-oriented filters that won't work with turtles - but $100 for the tank and stand was a bargain in and of itself - I think it's a 60 gallon tank.

I think I'm going to get a screen top instead of what my original setup has - half glass, half plexiglass (which I had to cut holes in for the Fluval and the heater). He did give me two smaller hoods that are probably adequate for full spectrum tubes - and I can put the basking light over the dock. Once I find out what to use as a basking light.

I have some of those aluminum clip-on reflectors in the garage - which I think I did use for basking at some point - which might be fine but I still need to know what wattage to use - I think someone said 100 to start with to see (as you pointed out) how it affects the 'water around the basking area' if I'm not mistaken?

So now I need to find a used canister filter.

Sounds like you got a good plan. You can use a regular household bulb like you use for lamps. There are variables as to what size you need. You can get a good enough temp with a regular plastic thermometer that you buy for outdoor use. Put it directly under the basking area and check your temp. If it is 85-90 degrees you are good. If it is too warm, try a 75 watt. I would advise to buy a ceramic light fixture. It is more safe than the plastic and you can these at Lowes or Home depot. I would suggest that you replace your top with a screened lid so that your heat light can set right on top of it facing straight down.

Keep us posted
Linda

Can I cut holes in a screen for where the tubes for the Fluval intake and output tubes go into the tank (as well as the heater wire)?